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Re: [pcgen] Re: Favored Enemy Choices

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  • Matt Haffner
    ... That s what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself ... I certainly don t know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can be done,
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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      On Feb 1, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Loyal wrote:
      > Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
      > That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.
      >
      > The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
      > yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
      > somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
      > some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

      That's what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself
      :/ I was interpolating from the postings. Sorry.

      I certainly don't know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can
      be done, but it seems to me more like something that would have to come
      from code. Looking at what's there now, I was a bit surprised to see
      the favored enemy list explicitly there repeated for each favored
      enemy. Wouldn't it be safer to make that list a group of items with a
      new type and then specified only once?

      One thing that might help is to make it work kind of like the Languages
      chooser where an already selected item is listed in the lower box even
      if you invoke the chooser some time later. But that box also does not
      exclude items from the upper list that are already in the lower. Maybe
      this is a general feature of choosers that could be added?

      I think it also would be very helpful if the entries for the bonus box
      resolved to the actual enemies you've chosen. I'll try to FREQ this if
      it's not around already...

      All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
      ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
      bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
      box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
      enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
      up the tracker for it.

      mh - ZansForCans
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    • Paul Grosse
      I think you are missing a crucial wording here. Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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        I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

        <snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
        Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
        from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
        gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
        checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
        he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
        At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
        level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
        given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
        against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
        desired) increases by 2.
        If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
        also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
        specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
        the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
        higher.
        </snip of ClassesII.rtf>

        Look at the emphasis that I included the word "may" suggests that the
        person doesn't HAVE to pick another enemy he can choose the same enemy
        again. So you would have the following.

        1st level, Dragons +2
        5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for previous
        selection)
        10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
        previous selection)
        15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
        previous selection)
        20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
        previous selection)

        So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very nasty
        :)

        Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
        PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
        ICQ: 14397299
        AO: Nylan
        Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

        "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to
        keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
      • magus1972
        ... ... previous ... Alternately: 1st Level, Dragons +2 5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy) 10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse" <paul.grosse@m...> wrote:

          <SNIP!>

          > again. So you would have the following.
          >
          > 1st level, Dragons +2
          > 5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
          previous
          > selection)
          > 10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
          > previous selection)
          > 15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
          > previous selection)
          > 20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
          > previous selection)
          >

          Alternately:

          1st Level, Dragons +2
          5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy)
          10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd enemy, +4 for 2nd enemy, +6 for
          3rd enemy)
          15th Level, Dragons +20 (+2 for 4th enemy, +4 for 3rd enemy, +6 for
          2nd enemy, +8 for 1st enemy)
          20th Level, Dragons +30 (+2 for 5th enemy, +4 for 4th enemy, +6 for
          3rd enemy, +8 for 2nd enemy, +10 for 1st enemy)

          > So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very
          nasty
          > :)

          Nasty indeed!

          >
          > Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
          > PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
          > ICQ: 14397299
          > AO: Nylan
          > Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)
          >
          > "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human
          race to
          > keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein

          Magus1972
        • Loyal
          Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize that list? Or when an
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
            those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
            that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?

            Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored
            Enemy?


            -Loyal
          • Hetter
            ... One thing though, Paul. *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored enemy, and his or her bonuses against
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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              Paul Grosse wrote:

              >I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
              >
              ><snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
              >Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
              >from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
              >gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
              >checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
              >he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
              >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
              >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
              >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
              >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
              >desired) increases by 2.
              >If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
              >also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
              >specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
              >the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
              >higher.
              ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
              >
              >
              One thing though, Paul.
              <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

              *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
              enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
              goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.

              </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
              and
              <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>

              BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]

              *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.

              </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

              I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
              chooses a new favored enemy each time.

              --
              Hetter
              Special Projects Silverback
              PCGen Bod
            • Matt Haffner
              ... may = is allowed to . It also says that for the 1st level pick. Finally, it says ...may select an *additional* favored enemy , not any you have selected
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:

                > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

                may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not any
                you have selected already.

                Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not say
                that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking the
                same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them again,
                it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked already.
                So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you sill
                have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.

                The wording seems very clear to me...

                mh - ZansForCans
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              • Matt Haffner
                ... They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes along with what I was saying above about separating these out into their own LST group
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  On Feb 2, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Loyal wrote:

                  > Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                  > those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                  > that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?
                  >
                  > Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored

                  They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                  along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                  their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one list,
                  and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                  editing in one place or by appending through new sources.

                  mh - ZansForCans
                  --
                  Group Editing & Authoring Support
                  flexible campaign management for the web
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                • Jeremy Turnley
                  ... not any ... say ... the ... again, ... already. ... sill ... Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the same thing when yours
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                    > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                    >
                    > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                    >
                    > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                    > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy",
                    not any
                    > you have selected already.
                    >
                    > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                    say
                    > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                    the
                    > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                    > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                    > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                    again,
                    > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                    already.
                    > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                    sill
                    > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                    >
                    > The wording seems very clear to me...

                    Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the
                    same thing when yours came in ;) You don't HAVE to take another
                    race, but if you do, it has to be a different one from one you
                    already have.

                    -Illy
                  • Loyal
                    It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is what I read the first time, hehehe.) You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                      It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is
                      what I read the first time, hehehe.)

                      You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on that initial
                      choice, but you don't actually get to select that choice again. The
                      wording does show that you could choose not to select another enemy,
                      but that reckons back to the "dim bulb" statement from earlier posts.

                      -Loyal


                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                      > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                      >
                      > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                      >
                      > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                      > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not
                      any
                      > you have selected already.
                      >
                      > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                      say
                      > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                      the
                      > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                      > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                      > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                      again,
                      > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                      already.
                      > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                      sill
                      > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                      >
                      > The wording seems very clear to me...
                      >
                      > mh - ZansForCans
                      > --
                      > Group Editing & Authoring Support
                      > flexible campaign management for the web
                      > info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
                      > demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
                    • Loyal
                      Completely agree. Favored Enemy is working right now as is, but it s definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for customization and growth.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                        Completely agree. Favored Enemy is "working" right now as is, but
                        it's definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for
                        customization and growth.

                        I'll see what I can come up with when I have some free cycles...

                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                        > along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                        > their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one
                        list,
                        > and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                        > editing in one place or by appending through new sources.
                        >
                        > mh - ZansForCans
                      • Stephen L Johnson
                        ... I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To me the RSD passage says: if RangerLevel = 5 and a multiple of 5 then if ( Desired
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                          On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 11:11, Hetter wrote:
                          > Paul Grosse wrote:
                          > >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                          > >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from
                          > those
                          > >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                          > >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                          > >desired) increases by 2.
                          > ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > One thing though, Paul.
                          > <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                          >
                          > *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                          > enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                          > goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.
                          >
                          > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                          > and
                          > <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>
                          >
                          > BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]
                          >
                          > *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.
                          >
                          > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                          >
                          > I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                          > chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                          I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To
                          me the RSD passage says:

                          if RangerLevel >= 5 and a multiple of 5 then
                          if ( Desired ) then
                          Choice Another Favored Enemy
                          else
                          NOP ; do nothing

                          --
                          Stephen L Johnson <sjohnson@...>

                          "Never tangle with a geek when source code is on the line." - Frank
                          Sorenson
                        • Matt Haffner
                          ... This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread. I think I found this bug. The Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy feats in
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 5, 2004
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                            On Feb 2, 2004, at 12:40 AM, Matt Haffner wrote:

                            > All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
                            > ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
                            > bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
                            > box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
                            > enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
                            > up the tracker for it.

                            This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread.
                            I think I found this bug.

                            The "Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy" feats in rsrd_feats_hidden2 need
                            MULT:YES tags. Otherwise, you never can pick the same bonus more than
                            once.

                            Do they need STACK:YES as well? Or does the
                            TYPE=FavoredEnemyBonus.STACK take care of that completely?

                            DM #891515

                            I P9'ed it because it's potentially very limiting to Rangers. I hope
                            that wasn't too presumtuous!

                            mh - ZansForCans
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