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Re: [pcgen] Re: Favored Enemy Choices

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  • Matt Haffner
    Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy selection and should
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1 2:25 PM
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      Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
      clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
      selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the ranger
      has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
      every level but first, a second box should come up with the ranger's
      current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
      assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.

      Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
      tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm out of
      time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had later.

      On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:

      > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
      > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
      > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I was
      > talking about.
      >
      > ;-)
      >
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
      >> loyalp sez...
      >>
      >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I completely
      > don't
      >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
      > you get the base
      >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another +2
      > to
      >> allocate every 5 levels.'
      >>
      >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
      > bonuses from,
      >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
      > enemy you
      >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
      >>
      >
      mh - ZansForCans
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    • Loyal
      Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way. That s what I tried to mention in my initial post. The only piece not working is the choosing of
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1 2:39 PM
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        Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
        That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.

        The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
        yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
        somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
        some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

        I feel like I've now gone full circle and come back to my original
        post...


        -Loyal



        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
        > Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
        > clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
        > selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the
        ranger
        > has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
        > every level but first, a second box should come up with the
        ranger's
        > current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
        > assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.
        >
        > Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
        > tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm
        out of
        > time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had
        later.
        >
        > On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:
        >
        > > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
        > > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
        > > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I
        was
        > > talking about.
        > >
        > > ;-)
        > >
        > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
        > >> loyalp sez...
        > >>
        > >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I
        completely
        > > don't
        > >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
        > > you get the base
        > >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another
        +2
        > > to
        > >> allocate every 5 levels.'
        > >>
        > >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
        > > bonuses from,
        > >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
        > > enemy you
        > >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
        > >>
        > >
        > mh - ZansForCans
        > --
        > Group Editing & Authoring Support
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      • Matt Haffner
        ... That s what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself ... I certainly don t know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can be done,
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1 10:40 PM
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          On Feb 1, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Loyal wrote:
          > Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
          > That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.
          >
          > The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
          > yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
          > somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
          > some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

          That's what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself
          :/ I was interpolating from the postings. Sorry.

          I certainly don't know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can
          be done, but it seems to me more like something that would have to come
          from code. Looking at what's there now, I was a bit surprised to see
          the favored enemy list explicitly there repeated for each favored
          enemy. Wouldn't it be safer to make that list a group of items with a
          new type and then specified only once?

          One thing that might help is to make it work kind of like the Languages
          chooser where an already selected item is listed in the lower box even
          if you invoke the chooser some time later. But that box also does not
          exclude items from the upper list that are already in the lower. Maybe
          this is a general feature of choosers that could be added?

          I think it also would be very helpful if the entries for the bonus box
          resolved to the actual enemies you've chosen. I'll try to FREQ this if
          it's not around already...

          All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
          ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
          bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
          box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
          enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
          up the tracker for it.

          mh - ZansForCans
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        • Paul Grosse
          I think you are missing a crucial wording here. Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2 6:19 AM
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            I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

            <snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
            Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
            from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
            gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
            checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
            he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
            At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
            level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
            given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
            against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
            desired) increases by 2.
            If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
            also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
            specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
            the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
            higher.
            </snip of ClassesII.rtf>

            Look at the emphasis that I included the word "may" suggests that the
            person doesn't HAVE to pick another enemy he can choose the same enemy
            again. So you would have the following.

            1st level, Dragons +2
            5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for previous
            selection)
            10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
            previous selection)
            15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
            previous selection)
            20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
            previous selection)

            So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very nasty
            :)

            Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
            PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
            ICQ: 14397299
            AO: Nylan
            Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

            "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to
            keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
          • magus1972
            ... ... previous ... Alternately: 1st Level, Dragons +2 5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy) 10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2 7:14 AM
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse" <paul.grosse@m...> wrote:

              <SNIP!>

              > again. So you would have the following.
              >
              > 1st level, Dragons +2
              > 5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              previous
              > selection)
              > 10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              > previous selection)
              > 15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              > previous selection)
              > 20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              > previous selection)
              >

              Alternately:

              1st Level, Dragons +2
              5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy)
              10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd enemy, +4 for 2nd enemy, +6 for
              3rd enemy)
              15th Level, Dragons +20 (+2 for 4th enemy, +4 for 3rd enemy, +6 for
              2nd enemy, +8 for 1st enemy)
              20th Level, Dragons +30 (+2 for 5th enemy, +4 for 4th enemy, +6 for
              3rd enemy, +8 for 2nd enemy, +10 for 1st enemy)

              > So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very
              nasty
              > :)

              Nasty indeed!

              >
              > Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
              > PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
              > ICQ: 14397299
              > AO: Nylan
              > Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)
              >
              > "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human
              race to
              > keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein

              Magus1972
            • Loyal
              Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize that list? Or when an
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2 9:06 AM
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                Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?

                Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored
                Enemy?


                -Loyal
              • Hetter
                ... One thing though, Paul. *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored enemy, and his or her bonuses against
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2 9:11 AM
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                  Paul Grosse wrote:

                  >I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                  >
                  ><snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
                  >Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
                  >from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
                  >gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
                  >checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
                  >he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
                  >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                  >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
                  >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                  >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                  >desired) increases by 2.
                  >If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
                  >also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
                  >specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
                  >the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
                  >higher.
                  ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                  >
                  >
                  One thing though, Paul.
                  <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                  *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                  enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                  goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.

                  </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                  and
                  <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>

                  BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]

                  *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.

                  </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                  I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                  chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                  --
                  Hetter
                  Special Projects Silverback
                  PCGen Bod
                • Matt Haffner
                  ... may = is allowed to . It also says that for the 1st level pick. Finally, it says ...may select an *additional* favored enemy , not any you have selected
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2 9:20 AM
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                    On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:

                    > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

                    may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                    Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not any
                    you have selected already.

                    Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not say
                    that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking the
                    same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                    bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                    distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them again,
                    it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked already.
                    So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you sill
                    have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.

                    The wording seems very clear to me...

                    mh - ZansForCans
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                  • Matt Haffner
                    ... They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes along with what I was saying above about separating these out into their own LST group
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2 9:22 AM
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                      On Feb 2, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Loyal wrote:

                      > Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                      > those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                      > that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?
                      >
                      > Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored

                      They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                      along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                      their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one list,
                      and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                      editing in one place or by appending through new sources.

                      mh - ZansForCans
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                      Group Editing & Authoring Support
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                    • Jeremy Turnley
                      ... not any ... say ... the ... again, ... already. ... sill ... Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the same thing when yours
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2 9:35 AM
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                        > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                        >
                        > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                        >
                        > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                        > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy",
                        not any
                        > you have selected already.
                        >
                        > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                        say
                        > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                        the
                        > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                        > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                        > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                        again,
                        > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                        already.
                        > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                        sill
                        > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                        >
                        > The wording seems very clear to me...

                        Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the
                        same thing when yours came in ;) You don't HAVE to take another
                        race, but if you do, it has to be a different one from one you
                        already have.

                        -Illy
                      • Loyal
                        It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is what I read the first time, hehehe.) You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2 10:46 AM
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                          It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is
                          what I read the first time, hehehe.)

                          You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on that initial
                          choice, but you don't actually get to select that choice again. The
                          wording does show that you could choose not to select another enemy,
                          but that reckons back to the "dim bulb" statement from earlier posts.

                          -Loyal


                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                          > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                          >
                          > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                          >
                          > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                          > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not
                          any
                          > you have selected already.
                          >
                          > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                          say
                          > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                          the
                          > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                          > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                          > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                          again,
                          > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                          already.
                          > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                          sill
                          > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                          >
                          > The wording seems very clear to me...
                          >
                          > mh - ZansForCans
                          > --
                          > Group Editing & Authoring Support
                          > flexible campaign management for the web
                          > info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
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                        • Loyal
                          Completely agree. Favored Enemy is working right now as is, but it s definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for customization and growth.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 2 10:49 AM
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                            Completely agree. Favored Enemy is "working" right now as is, but
                            it's definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for
                            customization and growth.

                            I'll see what I can come up with when I have some free cycles...

                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                            >
                            > They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                            > along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                            > their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one
                            list,
                            > and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                            > editing in one place or by appending through new sources.
                            >
                            > mh - ZansForCans
                          • Stephen L Johnson
                            ... I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To me the RSD passage says: if RangerLevel = 5 and a multiple of 5 then if ( Desired
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 2 12:34 PM
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                              On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 11:11, Hetter wrote:
                              > Paul Grosse wrote:
                              > >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                              > >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from
                              > those
                              > >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                              > >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                              > >desired) increases by 2.
                              > ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > One thing though, Paul.
                              > <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                              >
                              > *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                              > enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                              > goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.
                              >
                              > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                              > and
                              > <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>
                              >
                              > BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]
                              >
                              > *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.
                              >
                              > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                              >
                              > I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                              > chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                              I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To
                              me the RSD passage says:

                              if RangerLevel >= 5 and a multiple of 5 then
                              if ( Desired ) then
                              Choice Another Favored Enemy
                              else
                              NOP ; do nothing

                              --
                              Stephen L Johnson <sjohnson@...>

                              "Never tangle with a geek when source code is on the line." - Frank
                              Sorenson
                            • Matt Haffner
                              ... This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread. I think I found this bug. The Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy feats in
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 5 7:13 PM
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                                On Feb 2, 2004, at 12:40 AM, Matt Haffner wrote:

                                > All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
                                > ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
                                > bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
                                > box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
                                > enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
                                > up the tracker for it.

                                This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread.
                                I think I found this bug.

                                The "Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy" feats in rsrd_feats_hidden2 need
                                MULT:YES tags. Otherwise, you never can pick the same bonus more than
                                once.

                                Do they need STACK:YES as well? Or does the
                                TYPE=FavoredEnemyBonus.STACK take care of that completely?

                                DM #891515

                                I P9'ed it because it's potentially very limiting to Rangers. I hope
                                that wasn't too presumtuous!

                                mh - ZansForCans
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