Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Favored Enemy Choices

Expand Messages
  • Loyal
    And that s the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent selections. I was blown away at
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
      and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
      selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I was
      talking about.

      ;-)

      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
      > loyalp sez...
      >
      > 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I completely
      don't
      > understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
      you get the base
      > +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another +2
      to
      > allocate every 5 levels.'
      >
      > Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
      bonuses from,
      > then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
      enemy you
      > picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
      >
    • Matt Haffner
      Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy selection and should
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
        clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
        selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the ranger
        has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
        every level but first, a second box should come up with the ranger's
        current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
        assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.

        Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
        tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm out of
        time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had later.

        On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:

        > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
        > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
        > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I was
        > talking about.
        >
        > ;-)
        >
        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
        >> loyalp sez...
        >>
        >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I completely
        > don't
        >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
        > you get the base
        >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another +2
        > to
        >> allocate every 5 levels.'
        >>
        >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
        > bonuses from,
        >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
        > enemy you
        >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
        >>
        >
        mh - ZansForCans
        --
        Group Editing & Authoring Support
        flexible campaign management for the web
        info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
        demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
      • Loyal
        Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way. That s what I tried to mention in my initial post. The only piece not working is the choosing of
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
          That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.

          The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
          yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
          somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
          some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

          I feel like I've now gone full circle and come back to my original
          post...


          -Loyal



          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
          > Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
          > clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
          > selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the
          ranger
          > has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
          > every level but first, a second box should come up with the
          ranger's
          > current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
          > assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.
          >
          > Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
          > tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm
          out of
          > time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had
          later.
          >
          > On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:
          >
          > > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
          > > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
          > > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I
          was
          > > talking about.
          > >
          > > ;-)
          > >
          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
          > >> loyalp sez...
          > >>
          > >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I
          completely
          > > don't
          > >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
          > > you get the base
          > >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another
          +2
          > > to
          > >> allocate every 5 levels.'
          > >>
          > >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
          > > bonuses from,
          > >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
          > > enemy you
          > >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
          > >>
          > >
          > mh - ZansForCans
          > --
          > Group Editing & Authoring Support
          > flexible campaign management for the web
          > info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
          > demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
        • Matt Haffner
          ... That s what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself ... I certainly don t know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can be done,
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            On Feb 1, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Loyal wrote:
            > Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
            > That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.
            >
            > The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
            > yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
            > somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
            > some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

            That's what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself
            :/ I was interpolating from the postings. Sorry.

            I certainly don't know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can
            be done, but it seems to me more like something that would have to come
            from code. Looking at what's there now, I was a bit surprised to see
            the favored enemy list explicitly there repeated for each favored
            enemy. Wouldn't it be safer to make that list a group of items with a
            new type and then specified only once?

            One thing that might help is to make it work kind of like the Languages
            chooser where an already selected item is listed in the lower box even
            if you invoke the chooser some time later. But that box also does not
            exclude items from the upper list that are already in the lower. Maybe
            this is a general feature of choosers that could be added?

            I think it also would be very helpful if the entries for the bonus box
            resolved to the actual enemies you've chosen. I'll try to FREQ this if
            it's not around already...

            All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
            ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
            bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
            box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
            enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
            up the tracker for it.

            mh - ZansForCans
            --
            Group Editing & Authoring Support
            flexible campaign management for the web
            info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
            demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
          • Paul Grosse
            I think you are missing a crucial wording here. Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

              <snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
              Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
              from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
              gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
              checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
              he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
              At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
              level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
              given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
              against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
              desired) increases by 2.
              If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
              also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
              specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
              the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
              higher.
              </snip of ClassesII.rtf>

              Look at the emphasis that I included the word "may" suggests that the
              person doesn't HAVE to pick another enemy he can choose the same enemy
              again. So you would have the following.

              1st level, Dragons +2
              5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for previous
              selection)
              10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              previous selection)
              15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              previous selection)
              20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
              previous selection)

              So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very nasty
              :)

              Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
              PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
              ICQ: 14397299
              AO: Nylan
              Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

              "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to
              keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
            • magus1972
              ... ... previous ... Alternately: 1st Level, Dragons +2 5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy) 10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse" <paul.grosse@m...> wrote:

                <SNIP!>

                > again. So you would have the following.
                >
                > 1st level, Dragons +2
                > 5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                previous
                > selection)
                > 10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                > previous selection)
                > 15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                > previous selection)
                > 20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                > previous selection)
                >

                Alternately:

                1st Level, Dragons +2
                5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy)
                10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd enemy, +4 for 2nd enemy, +6 for
                3rd enemy)
                15th Level, Dragons +20 (+2 for 4th enemy, +4 for 3rd enemy, +6 for
                2nd enemy, +8 for 1st enemy)
                20th Level, Dragons +30 (+2 for 5th enemy, +4 for 4th enemy, +6 for
                3rd enemy, +8 for 2nd enemy, +10 for 1st enemy)

                > So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very
                nasty
                > :)

                Nasty indeed!

                >
                > Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
                > PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
                > ICQ: 14397299
                > AO: Nylan
                > Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)
                >
                > "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human
                race to
                > keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein

                Magus1972
              • Loyal
                Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize that list? Or when an
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                  those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                  that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?

                  Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored
                  Enemy?


                  -Loyal
                • Hetter
                  ... One thing though, Paul. *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored enemy, and his or her bonuses against
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Paul Grosse wrote:

                    >I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                    >
                    ><snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
                    >Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
                    >from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
                    >gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
                    >checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
                    >he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
                    >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                    >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
                    >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                    >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                    >desired) increases by 2.
                    >If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
                    >also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
                    >specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
                    >the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
                    >higher.
                    ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                    >
                    >
                    One thing though, Paul.
                    <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                    *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                    enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                    goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.

                    </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                    and
                    <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>

                    BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]

                    *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.

                    </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                    I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                    chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                    --
                    Hetter
                    Special Projects Silverback
                    PCGen Bod
                  • Matt Haffner
                    ... may = is allowed to . It also says that for the 1st level pick. Finally, it says ...may select an *additional* favored enemy , not any you have selected
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:

                      > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

                      may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                      Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not any
                      you have selected already.

                      Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not say
                      that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking the
                      same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                      bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                      distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them again,
                      it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked already.
                      So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you sill
                      have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.

                      The wording seems very clear to me...

                      mh - ZansForCans
                      --
                      Group Editing & Authoring Support
                      flexible campaign management for the web
                      info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
                      demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
                    • Matt Haffner
                      ... They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes along with what I was saying above about separating these out into their own LST group
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Feb 2, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Loyal wrote:

                        > Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                        > those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                        > that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?
                        >
                        > Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored

                        They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                        along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                        their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one list,
                        and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                        editing in one place or by appending through new sources.

                        mh - ZansForCans
                        --
                        Group Editing & Authoring Support
                        flexible campaign management for the web
                        info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
                        demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
                      • Jeremy Turnley
                        ... not any ... say ... the ... again, ... already. ... sill ... Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the same thing when yours
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                          > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                          >
                          > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                          >
                          > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                          > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy",
                          not any
                          > you have selected already.
                          >
                          > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                          say
                          > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                          the
                          > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                          > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                          > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                          again,
                          > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                          already.
                          > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                          sill
                          > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                          >
                          > The wording seems very clear to me...

                          Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the
                          same thing when yours came in ;) You don't HAVE to take another
                          race, but if you do, it has to be a different one from one you
                          already have.

                          -Illy
                        • Loyal
                          It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is what I read the first time, hehehe.) You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is
                            what I read the first time, hehehe.)

                            You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on that initial
                            choice, but you don't actually get to select that choice again. The
                            wording does show that you could choose not to select another enemy,
                            but that reckons back to the "dim bulb" statement from earlier posts.

                            -Loyal


                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                            > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                            >
                            > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                            >
                            > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                            > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not
                            any
                            > you have selected already.
                            >
                            > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                            say
                            > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                            the
                            > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                            > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                            > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                            again,
                            > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                            already.
                            > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                            sill
                            > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                            >
                            > The wording seems very clear to me...
                            >
                            > mh - ZansForCans
                            > --
                            > Group Editing & Authoring Support
                            > flexible campaign management for the web
                            > info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
                            > demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
                          • Loyal
                            Completely agree. Favored Enemy is working right now as is, but it s definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for customization and growth.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Completely agree. Favored Enemy is "working" right now as is, but
                              it's definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for
                              customization and growth.

                              I'll see what I can come up with when I have some free cycles...

                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                              > along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                              > their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one
                              list,
                              > and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                              > editing in one place or by appending through new sources.
                              >
                              > mh - ZansForCans
                            • Stephen L Johnson
                              ... I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To me the RSD passage says: if RangerLevel = 5 and a multiple of 5 then if ( Desired
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 11:11, Hetter wrote:
                                > Paul Grosse wrote:
                                > >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                                > >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from
                                > those
                                > >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                                > >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                                > >desired) increases by 2.
                                > ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > One thing though, Paul.
                                > <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                >
                                > *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                                > enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                                > goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.
                                >
                                > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                > and
                                > <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>
                                >
                                > BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]
                                >
                                > *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.
                                >
                                > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                >
                                > I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                                > chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                                I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To
                                me the RSD passage says:

                                if RangerLevel >= 5 and a multiple of 5 then
                                if ( Desired ) then
                                Choice Another Favored Enemy
                                else
                                NOP ; do nothing

                                --
                                Stephen L Johnson <sjohnson@...>

                                "Never tangle with a geek when source code is on the line." - Frank
                                Sorenson
                              • Matt Haffner
                                ... This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread. I think I found this bug. The Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy feats in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 5, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On Feb 2, 2004, at 12:40 AM, Matt Haffner wrote:

                                  > All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
                                  > ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
                                  > bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
                                  > box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
                                  > enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
                                  > up the tracker for it.

                                  This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread.
                                  I think I found this bug.

                                  The "Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy" feats in rsrd_feats_hidden2 need
                                  MULT:YES tags. Otherwise, you never can pick the same bonus more than
                                  once.

                                  Do they need STACK:YES as well? Or does the
                                  TYPE=FavoredEnemyBonus.STACK take care of that completely?

                                  DM #891515

                                  I P9'ed it because it's potentially very limiting to Rangers. I hope
                                  that wasn't too presumtuous!

                                  mh - ZansForCans
                                  --
                                  Group Editing & Authoring Support
                                  flexible campaign management for the web
                                  info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
                                  demo :: http://www.codefuries.com/GEAS/public/wot.cgi
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.