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Re: [pcgen] Re: Favored Enemy Choices

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  • Kuni Tetsu
    ... More specifically, you cannot put the +6 on the 3rd Enemy, but you could on either of the other two. When the third enemy is chosen, it gets an initial
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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      At 01:59 PM 2/1/2004 +1100, you wrote:
      > > 1st Enemy +4
      > > 2nd Enemy +2
      > >
      > > or
      > >
      > > 1st Enemy +2
      > > 2nd Enemy +4
      > >
      >The way I read it you have a choice of these two above. You *must* add a
      >*new* enemy type and then you must choose one of your enemy types to add
      >another +2 to your benefits. So at 10th level you would have 3 types of
      >favoured enemies, each at a minimum of +2, but you have 2 other +2s to
      >spread around. So you could have 1 at +2 and 2 at +4 or 2 at +2 and the
      >other at +6

      More specifically, you cannot put the +6 on the 3rd Enemy, but you could on
      either of the other two. When the third enemy is chosen, it gets an initial
      value of +2 and you can add the "bump-up" to it, but you could not add the
      bump-up from 5th level.
    • Loyal
      And that s the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent selections. I was blown away at
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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        And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
        and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
        selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I was
        talking about.

        ;-)

        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
        > loyalp sez...
        >
        > 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I completely
        don't
        > understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
        you get the base
        > +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another +2
        to
        > allocate every 5 levels.'
        >
        > Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
        bonuses from,
        > then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
        enemy you
        > picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
        >
      • Matt Haffner
        Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy selection and should
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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          Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
          clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
          selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the ranger
          has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
          every level but first, a second box should come up with the ranger's
          current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
          assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.

          Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
          tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm out of
          time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had later.

          On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:

          > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
          > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
          > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I was
          > talking about.
          >
          > ;-)
          >
          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
          >> loyalp sez...
          >>
          >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I completely
          > don't
          >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
          > you get the base
          >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another +2
          > to
          >> allocate every 5 levels.'
          >>
          >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
          > bonuses from,
          >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
          > enemy you
          >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
          >>
          >
          mh - ZansForCans
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        • Loyal
          Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way. That s what I tried to mention in my initial post. The only piece not working is the choosing of
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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            Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
            That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.

            The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
            yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
            somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
            some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

            I feel like I've now gone full circle and come back to my original
            post...


            -Loyal



            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
            > Personally, I think we really need two CHOOSE boxes here to make it
            > clear to the user what they are doing. The first is the new enemy
            > selection and should consist of a choose box with enemies the
            ranger
            > has NOT yet selected. The selected enemy gets a +2 bonus. Then, for
            > every level but first, a second box should come up with the
            ranger's
            > current selections (including the one just chosen moments ago) to
            > assign the additional +2 'free' bonus.
            >
            > Programatically, there are a few choices to make this easier on the
            > tags, but I'm not an expert on what syntax is already coded. I'm
            out of
            > time right now, but I'll try to plunk down an idea or two I had
            later.
            >
            > On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Loyal wrote:
            >
            > > And that's the reasoning for my original post about the CHOOSE tag
            > > and removing the original enemy selection from subsequent
            > > selections. I was blown away at the posts asking what the heck I
            was
            > > talking about.
            > >
            > > ;-)
            > >
            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, notmousse@a... wrote:
            > >> loyalp sez...
            > >>
            > >> 'So, yep, I'm wrong in my thinking. And to be honest, I
            completely
            > > don't
            > >> understand what they've written here! My interpretation is that
            > > you get the base
            > >> +2 bonus whenever an enemy is selected, and you also get another
            +2
            > > to
            > >> allocate every 5 levels.'
            > >>
            > >> Sounds like you got it right. You pick an enemy to get your
            > > bonuses from,
            > >> then the next time you pick another enemy. On top of the second
            > > enemy you
            > >> picked you get another +2 for an enemy you've already selected.
            > >>
            > >
            > mh - ZansForCans
            > --
            > Group Editing & Authoring Support
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          • Matt Haffner
            ... That s what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself ... I certainly don t know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can be done,
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
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              On Feb 1, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Loyal wrote:
              > Uh, there are two boxes coming up, and it is working this way.
              > That's what I tried to mention in my initial post.
              >
              > The only piece not working is the choosing of enemies that are NOT
              > yet selected. Hence my original question here about making CHOOSE
              > somehow do that. It would be a programmatic change then, and not
              > some sort of existing feature to the CHOOSE tag?

              That's what I get for talking out of my butt without trying it myself
              :/ I was interpolating from the postings. Sorry.

              I certainly don't know enough LST syntax yet myself to know if that can
              be done, but it seems to me more like something that would have to come
              from code. Looking at what's there now, I was a bit surprised to see
              the favored enemy list explicitly there repeated for each favored
              enemy. Wouldn't it be safer to make that list a group of items with a
              new type and then specified only once?

              One thing that might help is to make it work kind of like the Languages
              chooser where an already selected item is listed in the lower box even
              if you invoke the chooser some time later. But that box also does not
              exclude items from the upper list that are already in the lower. Maybe
              this is a general feature of choosers that could be added?

              I think it also would be very helpful if the entries for the bonus box
              resolved to the actual enemies you've chosen. I'll try to FREQ this if
              it's not around already...

              All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
              ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
              bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
              box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
              enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
              up the tracker for it.

              mh - ZansForCans
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            • Paul Grosse
              I think you are missing a crucial wording here. Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

                <snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
                Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
                from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
                gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
                checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
                he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
                At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
                given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                desired) increases by 2.
                If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
                also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
                specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
                the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
                higher.
                </snip of ClassesII.rtf>

                Look at the emphasis that I included the word "may" suggests that the
                person doesn't HAVE to pick another enemy he can choose the same enemy
                again. So you would have the following.

                1st level, Dragons +2
                5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for previous
                selection)
                10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                previous selection)
                15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                previous selection)
                20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                previous selection)

                So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very nasty
                :)

                Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
                PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
                ICQ: 14397299
                AO: Nylan
                Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

                "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to
                keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
              • magus1972
                ... ... previous ... Alternately: 1st Level, Dragons +2 5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy) 10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse" <paul.grosse@m...> wrote:

                  <SNIP!>

                  > again. So you would have the following.
                  >
                  > 1st level, Dragons +2
                  > 5th level, Dragons +6 (+2 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                  previous
                  > selection)
                  > 10th level, Dragons +10 (+6 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                  > previous selection)
                  > 15th level, Dragons +14 (+10 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                  > previous selection)
                  > 20th level, Dragons +18 (+14 originally, +2 for 2nd enemy, +2 for
                  > previous selection)
                  >

                  Alternately:

                  1st Level, Dragons +2
                  5th Level, Dragons +6 (+2 for 2nd enemy, +4 for 1st enemy)
                  10th Level, Dragons +12 (+2 for 3rd enemy, +4 for 2nd enemy, +6 for
                  3rd enemy)
                  15th Level, Dragons +20 (+2 for 4th enemy, +4 for 3rd enemy, +6 for
                  2nd enemy, +8 for 1st enemy)
                  20th Level, Dragons +30 (+2 for 5th enemy, +4 for 4th enemy, +6 for
                  3rd enemy, +8 for 2nd enemy, +10 for 1st enemy)

                  > So if a ranger only wanted to focus on one enemy it would get very
                  nasty
                  > :)

                  Nasty indeed!

                  >
                  > Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
                  > PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
                  > ICQ: 14397299
                  > AO: Nylan
                  > Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)
                  >
                  > "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human
                  race to
                  > keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein

                  Magus1972
                • Loyal
                  Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize that list? Or when an
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                    Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                    those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                    that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?

                    Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored
                    Enemy?


                    -Loyal
                  • Hetter
                    ... One thing though, Paul. *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored enemy, and his or her bonuses against
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                      Paul Grosse wrote:

                      >I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                      >
                      ><snip of Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse>
                      >Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature
                      >from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger
                      >gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival
                      >checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise,
                      >he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
                      >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                      >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from those
                      >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                      >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                      >desired) increases by 2.
                      >If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must
                      >also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a
                      >specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy,
                      >the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is
                      >higher.
                      ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                      >
                      >
                      One thing though, Paul.
                      <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                      *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                      enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                      goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.

                      </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                      and
                      <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>

                      BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]

                      *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.

                      </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>

                      I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                      chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                      --
                      Hetter
                      Special Projects Silverback
                      PCGen Bod
                    • Matt Haffner
                      ... may = is allowed to . It also says that for the 1st level pick. Finally, it says ...may select an *additional* favored enemy , not any you have selected
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                        On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:

                        > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.

                        may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                        Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not any
                        you have selected already.

                        Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not say
                        that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking the
                        same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                        bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                        distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them again,
                        it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked already.
                        So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you sill
                        have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.

                        The wording seems very clear to me...

                        mh - ZansForCans
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                      • Matt Haffner
                        ... They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes along with what I was saying above about separating these out into their own LST group
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                          On Feb 2, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Loyal wrote:

                          > Since the RSRD specifies that the only enemies you can choose are
                          > those listed on the table, what happens when a DM wants to customize
                          > that list? Or when an accessory adds to that list?
                          >
                          > Is there an easy mechanism to modify the existing method of Favored

                          They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                          along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                          their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one list,
                          and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                          editing in one place or by appending through new sources.

                          mh - ZansForCans
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                          Group Editing & Authoring Support
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                        • Jeremy Turnley
                          ... not any ... say ... the ... again, ... already. ... sill ... Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the same thing when yours
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                            > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                            >
                            > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                            >
                            > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                            > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy",
                            not any
                            > you have selected already.
                            >
                            > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                            say
                            > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                            the
                            > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                            > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                            > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                            again,
                            > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                            already.
                            > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                            sill
                            > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                            >
                            > The wording seems very clear to me...

                            Looking back at them I agree (and was just writing a post saying the
                            same thing when yours came in ;) You don't HAVE to take another
                            race, but if you do, it has to be a different one from one you
                            already have.

                            -Illy
                          • Loyal
                            It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is what I read the first time, hehehe.) You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                              It seems very clear that is how it works. (Especially since that is
                              what I read the first time, hehehe.)

                              You may put the bonus gained at subsequent levels on that initial
                              choice, but you don't actually get to select that choice again. The
                              wording does show that you could choose not to select another enemy,
                              but that reckons back to the "dim bulb" statement from earlier posts.

                              -Loyal


                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                              > On Feb 2, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Paul Grosse wrote:
                              >
                              > > I think you are missing a crucial wording here.
                              >
                              > may = 'is allowed to'. It also says that for the 1st level pick.
                              > Finally, it says "...may select an *additional* favored enemy", not
                              any
                              > you have selected already.
                              >
                              > Even if you want to read it as 'can, if they want to', it does not
                              say
                              > that if you choose the same enemy you get an bonus +2 by picking
                              the
                              > same enemy as multiple favorites. Every favored enemy gets the +2
                              > bonus. Then, it says you get a +2 in addition at each 5th level to
                              > distribute among your favored enemies. This is not picking them
                              again,
                              > it's just a bonus you get to distribute to one you've picked
                              already.
                              > So, if you choose not to pick a favored enemy at 5th level, you
                              sill
                              > have only a max of +4 for your original pick at 1st level.
                              >
                              > The wording seems very clear to me...
                              >
                              > mh - ZansForCans
                              > --
                              > Group Editing & Authoring Support
                              > flexible campaign management for the web
                              > info :: http://www.codefuries.com/geas.php
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                            • Loyal
                              Completely agree. Favored Enemy is working right now as is, but it s definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for customization and growth.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                                Completely agree. Favored Enemy is "working" right now as is, but
                                it's definitely not 100% and could be adjusted to work better for
                                customization and growth.

                                I'll see what I can come up with when I have some free cycles...

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Matt Haffner <haffner@a...> wrote:
                                >
                                > They are hard-coded in the feats_hidden2 file right now. This goes
                                > along with what I was saying above about separating these out into
                                > their own LST group with a TYPE modifier. Then you have only one
                                list,
                                > and in addition, it would be easy to add members to the list with
                                > editing in one place or by appending through new sources.
                                >
                                > mh - ZansForCans
                              • Stephen L Johnson
                                ... I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To me the RSD passage says: if RangerLevel = 5 and a multiple of 5 then if ( Desired
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                                  On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 11:11, Hetter wrote:
                                  > Paul Grosse wrote:
                                  > >At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th
                                  > >level), the ranger *may* select an additional favored enemy from
                                  > those
                                  > >given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus
                                  > >against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so
                                  > >desired) increases by 2.
                                  > ></snip of ClassesII.rtf>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > One thing though, Paul.
                                  > <snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                  >
                                  > *Favored Enemy (Ex):* The epic ranger gains one additional favored
                                  > enemy, and his or her bonuses against one category of favored enemies
                                  > goes up by +2, every five levels higher than 20th.
                                  >
                                  > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                  > and
                                  > <snip of EpicFeats.rtf>
                                  >
                                  > BANE OF ENEMIES [EPIC]
                                  >
                                  > *Prerequisites:* Survival 24 ranks, five or more favored enemies.
                                  >
                                  > </snip of EpicClasses.rtf>
                                  >
                                  > I think those two things from the Epic SRD makes it clear the ranger
                                  > chooses a new favored enemy each time.

                                  I agree with Hetter. I think you are reading too much into wording. To
                                  me the RSD passage says:

                                  if RangerLevel >= 5 and a multiple of 5 then
                                  if ( Desired ) then
                                  Choice Another Favored Enemy
                                  else
                                  NOP ; do nothing

                                  --
                                  Stephen L Johnson <sjohnson@...>

                                  "Never tangle with a geek when source code is on the line." - Frank
                                  Sorenson
                                • Matt Haffner
                                  ... This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread. I think I found this bug. The Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy feats in
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 5, 2004
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                                    On Feb 2, 2004, at 12:40 AM, Matt Haffner wrote:

                                    > All that being said, I think I hit a real bug when testing. I added 6
                                    > ranger levels and got to select my 2 favored enemies and the 5th level
                                    > bonus without trouble. Then I added 4 more levels. The favored enemy
                                    > box came up OK, but the bonus box only listed the 2nd and 3rd favored
                                    > enemies for selection. Can someone else confirm this (5.5.9). I'll put
                                    > up the tracker for it.

                                    This was originally something I posted up in the favored enemy thread.
                                    I think I found this bug.

                                    The "Bonus to xxx Favored Enemy" feats in rsrd_feats_hidden2 need
                                    MULT:YES tags. Otherwise, you never can pick the same bonus more than
                                    once.

                                    Do they need STACK:YES as well? Or does the
                                    TYPE=FavoredEnemyBonus.STACK take care of that completely?

                                    DM #891515

                                    I P9'ed it because it's potentially very limiting to Rangers. I hope
                                    that wasn't too presumtuous!

                                    mh - ZansForCans
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