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Some requests, issues, and others...

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  • David Cortijo
    Some very interesting requests lately - I ve added a good number to the list over the past 20 minutes. Even so, it seems like Bryan is making some impressive
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2001
      Some very interesting requests lately - I've added a good number to the list over the past 20 minutes.  Even so, it seems like Bryan is making some impressive progress on a lot of them.  I also got a chance to thumb through Dragon 280 a few days ago, and here are the feature requests I've come up with in order to make the class (Eldritch Master) compatible:
       
      1) Set a prerequsite for a Prestige class that the character must cast arcane spells as a Bard or Sorcerer does (also needed for a feat in FR, now that I mention it).
      2) Ability to add known spells to a character's list even when not castable by that class (probably already available without problem, but I'm not sure...)
      3) Class gains a spell slot of one level higher than currently castable at a given level (for example, a sorcerer who can cast level 6 spells would gain a level 7 spell slot), as well as adding one known spell for the level just gained - ability adds spells to the original class's spell list (i.e. the Eldritch Master class adds the spell slot to the Sorcerer list but should probably have its own spell list for the extra spells gained by ability #2, due to ability #4).
      4) Class can "cast spells as another class", and can gain additional classes at later levels they can cast as.  This ability is two-fold - first off, the Eldritch Master gains (at 4th and 8th level) an additional spell list they can learn spells from. Second, it makes adding other classes easier - character classes can be made that duplicate another classes list without having to edit the spell.lst file.  [It would also enable a class that works entirely off of domain spells (an idea I've had, and apparently so have others - more on that later) to be added easily, since it could add both the spells and powers in the character's list with a simple tag.  Ex: CASTAS:#|DOMAINS|Y or N where # is the number of domains gained, Y or N is whether or not domain powers are gained.]  The tag would add the spells directly to the character's spell list.  Since the Eldritch Master never implies that, if the character gains additional Sorcerer levels, new known Sorcerer spells can be picked from this additional class lists gained, I would rather keep the known spells separate - since characters with Known Spell limitations don't memorize anyway, there's no need to integrate them.
       
      In my web surfing, I found Tracy Hickman's relatively new Dragonlance Nexus.  Included are some new classes for DL (both DnD 2E and SAGA settings, all in D20 format), the races, and some other goodies.  I will be working on integrating these into the program soon.  However, two classes from the 5th Age/SAGA setting (Mystic and Sorcerer) REQUIRE ability #4 listed above to work properly.
       
      Furthermore, I've been reviewing the Open Gaming License to see how compatible PCgen is with the guidelines, as well as seeing if we qualify to use the d20 System Logo.  For the most part, PCgen is clear - which is good.  It prevents any sort of lawsuit, discontinuation of the program, etc.  Here are the issues I've seen:
       
      1) PCgen uses product identity in it's core form.  By "Product Identity," I mean Campaign names.  Everything else is pretty much free game, actually - with the possible exception of the deity names and epithets used in the products.
      2) I'm still trying to find out how close the Combat Tracker comes to making PCgen an "Interactive Game" according to the D20 Trademark Guidelines - for the most part, I think we're ok there, though.
       
      Now the question is, how do we get around violating the OGL?  In my forays to the WotC message boards, I've come across a pseudo-solution.  If the "data" for the program (basically, all the LST files) is distributed separately from the program (the executable), then the program itself should be D20 compatible - trademark use and all.  The LST files - which, I believe, will soon be modular anyway, contain far too much Product Identity to even be considered compatible with the OGL - can, however, be distributed as modules for users to download separately from the executable.  The PCgen website can be a storehouse for such LST files - however, it would disclaim itself from any responsibility over the contents of said files.  Users could then download the LST files as they see fit, copy them to their PCgen directory, and viola - all is done. (There could, of course, be someone to maintain these LST files and make sure that a) they are compatible and b) LST files have unique names).
       
      Speaking of the LST files, I know I posted an idea regarding how we could best accomplish a modular system - I have one addendum to that.  If we create separate files for each campaign with the pcc extension (PCgen Configuration), then each campaign can have it's own config without needing to maintain a master campaign LST file.  That way, everything is in a single ZIP, can be extracted without fear of overwrite, and allows campaigns to be added and removed with ease.
       
      Dave
    • mocha@mcs.net
      ... the list over the past 20 minutes. Even so, it seems like Bryan is making some impressive progress on a lot of them. I also got a chance to thumb through
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 2, 2001
        --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
        > Some very interesting requests lately - I've added a good number to
        the list over the past 20 minutes. Even so, it seems like Bryan is
        making some impressive progress on a lot of them. I also got a
        chance to thumb through Dragon 280 a few days ago, and here are the
        feature requests I've come up with in order to make the class
        (Eldritch Master) compatible:
        >
        > 1) Set a prerequsite for a Prestige class that the character must
        cast arcane spells as a Bard or Sorcerer does (also needed for a feat
        in FR, now that I mention it).

        As in not needing to memorize? So something like PREMEMORIZE:N and
        PRESPELLTYPE:Arcane?

        > 2) Ability to add known spells to a character's list even when not
        castable by that class (probably already available without problem,
        but I'm not sure...)
        This is available to a small extent via domains, but your request
        seems broader than that. What exactly would be responsible for adding
        spells to the known spells list - and would it need to specify which
        class' known spell list?


        > 3) Class gains a spell slot of one level higher than currently
        castable at a given level (for example, a sorcerer who can cast level
        6 spells would gain a level 7 spell slot), as well as adding one
        known spell for the level just gained - ability adds spells to the
        original class's spell list (i.e. the Eldritch Master class adds the
        spell slot to the Sorcerer list but should probably have its own
        spell list for the extra spells gained by ability #2, due to ability
        #4).

        Something like BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_HIGH1|Sorceror|1
        which could also become BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_level|classname|number
        with level being HIGH for highest level available, or HIGH1 for a
        level above that.

        > 4) Class can "cast spells as another class", and can gain
        additional classes at later levels they can cast as. This ability is
        two-fold - first off, the Eldritch Master gains (at 4th and 8th
        level) an additional spell list they can learn spells from. Second,
        it makes adding other classes easier - character classes can be made
        that duplicate another classes list without having to edit the
        spell.lst file. [It would also enable a class that works entirely
        off of domain spells (an idea I've had, and apparently so have others
        - more on that later) to be added easily, since it could add both the
        spells and powers in the character's list with a simple tag. Ex:
        CASTAS:#|DOMAINS|Y or N where # is the number of domains gained, Y or
        N is whether or not domain powers are gained.] The tag would add the
        spells directly to the character's spell list. Since the Eldritch
        Master never implies that, if the character gains additional Sorcerer
        levels, new known Sorcerer spells can be picked from this additional
        class lists gained, I would rather keep the known spells separate -
        since characters with Known Spell limitations don't memorize anyway,
        there's no need to integrate them.

        Wow - that's a lot to put my brain around.
        First off - something in the class.lst like
        4 SPELL:spell a, spell b, spell c|1 meaning that at 4th level
        spells a b and c are added to the available list of 1st level spells.
        a second SPELL:spell d, spell e, spell f|2 would be likewise for
        level 2 spells.
        Second off - you want
        CASTAS:#|domainlist|Y/N - which would give the class access to the
        specified domains (wouldn't the # be redundant since it's true for
        all the domains in the list?)
        or
        CASTAS:list|flag
        where list is a list of domains, or classes (for classes, like
        Sorcerer it would be just one classname:Wizard) and flag is Y/N which
        would only be used with regards to domains and whether or not the
        granted power comes along as well as the spells. Maybe for classes
        the flag could be an integer indicating the maximum level of spells
        the class has access to from the other class.

        >
        > In my web surfing, I found Tracy Hickman's relatively new
        Dragonlance Nexus. Included are some new classes for DL (both DnD 2E
        and SAGA settings, all in D20 format), the races, and some other
        goodies. I will be working on integrating these into the program
        soon. However, two classes from the 5th Age/SAGA setting (Mystic and
        Sorcerer) REQUIRE ability #4 listed above to work properly.

        Another Sorcerer? Hm, then I do need to get the current Sorcerer
        working properly as currently I have it hardcoded to use the Wizard
        list. Adding the CASTAS:Wizard|9 as you suggest would correct that.

        >
        > Furthermore, I've been reviewing the Open Gaming License to see how
        compatible PCgen is with the guidelines, as well as seeing if we
        qualify to use the d20 System Logo. For the most part, PCgen is
        clear - which is good. It prevents any sort of lawsuit,
        discontinuation of the program, etc. Here are the issues I've seen:
        >
        > 1) PCgen uses product identity in it's core form. By "Product
        Identity," I mean Campaign names. Everything else is pretty much
        free game, actually - with the possible exception of the deity names
        and epithets used in the products.
        > 2) I'm still trying to find out how close the Combat Tracker comes
        to making PCgen an "Interactive Game" according to the D20 Trademark
        Guidelines - for the most part, I think we're ok there, though.
        >
        > Now the question is, how do we get around violating the OGL? In my
        forays to the WotC message boards, I've come across a pseudo-
        solution. If the "data" for the program (basically, all the LST
        files) is distributed separately from the program (the executable),
        then the program itself should be D20 compatible - trademark use and
        all. The LST files - which, I believe, will soon be modular anyway,
        contain far too much Product Identity to even be considered
        compatible with the OGL - can, however, be distributed as modules for
        users to download separately from the executable. The PCgen website
        can be a storehouse for such LST files - however, it would disclaim
        itself from any responsibility over the contents of said files.
        Users could then download the LST files as they see fit, copy them to
        their PCgen directory, and viola - all is done. (There could, of
        course, be someone to maintain these LST files and make sure that a)
        they are compatible and b) LST files have unique names).
        >
        > Speaking of the LST files, I know I posted an idea regarding how we
        could best accomplish a modular system - I have one addendum to
        that. If we create separate files for each campaign with the pcc
        extension (PCgen Configuration), then each campaign can have it's own
        config without needing to maintain a master campaign LST file. That
        way, everything is in a single ZIP, can be extracted without fear of
        overwrite, and allows campaigns to be added and removed with ease.

        okay - I've been through all the campaign discussions and my head is
        swimming. You're suggesting that we have a pcc for each campaign. In
        each campaign.pcc would be - what, the complete details of everything
        it required (the contents of the race.lst it needed, same for
        class.lst, skill.lst, etc. getting rid of the need for lst files
        entirely?), or a hybrid of references to the core lst files along
        with full detail on anything in the campaign not contained in the
        core lst files, or some other option? I suspect you mean something
        along the lines of the second option.

        And I believe that the Combat screen would not constitute a game by
        any stretch of meaning - it's simply a tracker. I doubt people will
        be entertained for hours and hours hitting the Roll Init button.
        Well, I have on ocassion... just kidding! :)

        >
        > Dave

        as always Dave, thanks for your insights and suggestions!

        -Bryan
      • David Cortijo
        I hate HMTL email in Outlook - this line is bugging me - it should be clear what text is mine, though. ... From: mocha@mcs.net To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com Sent:
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 2, 2001
          I hate HMTL email in Outlook - this line is bugging me - it should be clear what text is mine, though.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: mocha@...
          Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:00 PM
          Subject: [pcgen] Re: Some requests, issues, and others...

          --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
          > Some very interesting requests lately - I've added a good number to
          the list over the past 20 minutes.  Even so, it seems like Bryan is
          making some impressive progress on a lot of them.  I also got a
          chance to thumb through Dragon 280 a few days ago, and here are the
          feature requests I've come up with in order to make the class
          (Eldritch Master) compatible:
          >
          > 1) Set a prerequsite for a Prestige class that the character must
          cast arcane spells as a Bard or Sorcerer does (also needed for a feat
          in FR, now that I mention it).

          As in not needing to memorize? So something like PREMEMORIZE:N and
          PRESPELLTYPE:Arcane?
          DAVE:Yes - however, the two need to be combined into a single tag.  Dragonlance 3e (which I discussed in the original email) introduces divine spellcasters that do not need to prepare spells.  Technically, if there was a separate PREMEMORIZE tag, a character with such a divine class and levels in wizard would classify for Eldritch Master - which shouldn't be the case.
           
           

          > 2) Ability to add known spells to a character's list even when not
          castable by that class (probably already available without problem,
          but I'm not sure...)
          This is available to a small extent via domains, but your request
          seems broader than that. What exactly would be responsible for adding
          spells to the known spells list - and would it need to specify which
          class' known spell list?
           
           

          > 3) Class gains a spell slot of one level higher than currently
          castable at a given level (for example, a sorcerer who can cast level
          6 spells would gain a level 7 spell slot), as well as adding one
          known spell for the level just gained - ability adds spells to the
          original class's spell list (i.e. the Eldritch Master class adds the
          spell slot to the Sorcerer list but should probably have its own
          spell list for the extra spells gained by ability #2, due to ability
          #4).

          Something like BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_HIGH1|Sorceror|1
          which could also become BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_level|classname|number
          with level being HIGH for highest level available, or HIGH1 for a
          level above that.

          > 4) Class can "cast spells as another class", and can gain
          additional classes at later levels they can cast as.  This ability is
          two-fold - first off, the Eldritch Master gains (at 4th and 8th
          level) an additional spell list they can learn spells from. Second,
          it makes adding other classes easier - character classes can be made
          that duplicate another classes list without having to edit the
          spell.lst file.  [It would also enable a class that works entirely
          off of domain spells (an idea I've had, and apparently so have others
          - more on that later) to be added easily, since it could add both the
          spells and powers in the character's list with a simple tag.  Ex:
          CASTAS:#|DOMAINS|Y or N where # is the number of domains gained, Y or
          N is whether or not domain powers are gained.]  The tag would add the
          spells directly to the character's spell list.  Since the Eldritch
          Master never implies that, if the character gains additional Sorcerer
          levels, new known Sorcerer spells can be picked from this additional
          class lists gained, I would rather keep the known spells separate -
          since characters with Known Spell limitations don't memorize anyway,
          there's no need to integrate them.

          Wow - that's a lot to put my brain around.
          First off - something in the class.lst like
          4     SPELL:spell a, spell b, spell c|1 meaning that at 4th level
          spells a b and c are added to the available list of 1st level spells.
          a second SPELL:spell d, spell e, spell f|2 would be likewise for
          level 2 spells.
          Second off - you want
          CASTAS:#|domainlist|Y/N - which would give the class access to the
          specified domains (wouldn't the # be redundant since it's true for
          all the domains in the list?)
          or
          CASTAS:list|flag
          where list is a list of domains, or classes (for classes, like
          Sorcerer it would be just one classname:Wizard) and flag is Y/N which
          would only be used with regards to domains and whether or not the
          granted power comes along as well as the spells. Maybe for classes
          the flag could be an integer indicating the maximum level of spells
          the class has access to from the other class.

          >
          > In my web surfing, I found Tracy Hickman's relatively new
          Dragonlance Nexus.  Included are some new classes for DL (both DnD 2E
          and SAGA settings, all in D20 format), the races, and some other
          goodies.  I will be working on integrating these into the program
          soon.  However, two classes from the 5th Age/SAGA setting (Mystic and
          Sorcerer) REQUIRE ability #4 listed above to work properly.

          Another Sorcerer? Hm, then I do need to get the current Sorcerer
          working properly as currently I have it hardcoded to use the Wizard
          list. Adding the CASTAS:Wizard|9 as you suggest would correct that.

          >
          > Furthermore, I've been reviewing the Open Gaming License to see how
          compatible PCgen is with the guidelines, as well as seeing if we
          qualify to use the d20 System Logo.  For the most part, PCgen is
          clear - which is good.  It prevents any sort of lawsuit,
          discontinuation of the program, etc.  Here are the issues I've seen:
          >
          > 1) PCgen uses product identity in it's core form.  By "Product
          Identity," I mean Campaign names.  Everything else is pretty much
          free game, actually - with the possible exception of the deity names
          and epithets used in the products.
          > 2) I'm still trying to find out how close the Combat Tracker comes
          to making PCgen an "Interactive Game" according to the D20 Trademark
          Guidelines - for the most part, I think we're ok there, though.
          >
          > Now the question is, how do we get around violating the OGL?  In my
          forays to the WotC message boards, I've come across a pseudo-
          solution.  If the "data" for the program (basically, all the LST
          files) is distributed separately from the program (the executable),
          then the program itself should be D20 compatible - trademark use and
          all.  The LST files - which, I believe, will soon be modular anyway,
          contain far too much Product Identity to even be considered
          compatible with the OGL - can, however, be distributed as modules for
          users to download separately from the executable.  The PCgen website
          can be a storehouse for such LST files - however, it would disclaim
          itself from any responsibility over the contents of said files. 
          Users could then download the LST files as they see fit, copy them to
          their PCgen directory, and viola - all is done. (There could, of
          course, be someone to maintain these LST files and make sure that a)
          they are compatible and b) LST files have unique names).
          >
          > Speaking of the LST files, I know I posted an idea regarding how we
          could best accomplish a modular system - I have one addendum to
          that.  If we create separate files for each campaign with the pcc
          extension (PCgen Configuration), then each campaign can have it's own
          config without needing to maintain a master campaign LST file.  That
          way, everything is in a single ZIP, can be extracted without fear of
          overwrite, and allows campaigns to be added and removed with ease.

          okay - I've been through all the campaign discussions and my head is
          swimming. You're suggesting that we have a pcc for each campaign. In
          each campaign.pcc would be - what, the complete details of everything
          it required (the contents of the race.lst it needed, same for
          class.lst, skill.lst, etc. getting rid of the need for lst files
          entirely?), or a hybrid of references to the core lst files along
          with full detail on anything in the campaign not contained in the
          core lst files, or some other option? I suspect you mean something
          along the lines of the second option.

          And I believe that the Combat screen would not constitute a game by
          any stretch of meaning - it's simply a tracker. I doubt people will
          be entertained for hours and hours hitting the Roll Init button.
          Well, I have on ocassion... just kidding! :)

          >
          > Dave

          as always Dave, thanks for your insights and suggestions!

          -Bryan




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        • David Cortijo
          Please ignore my last email.... I hate HMTL email in Outlook - this line is bugging me - it should be clear what text is mine, though. ... From: mocha@mcs.net
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 2, 2001
            Please ignore my last email....
             
            I hate HMTL email in Outlook - this line is bugging me - it should be clear what text is mine, though.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: mocha@...
            Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:00 PM
            Subject: [pcgen] Re: Some requests, issues, and others...

            --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
            > Some very interesting requests lately - I've added a good number to
            the list over the past 20 minutes.  Even so, it seems like Bryan is
            making some impressive progress on a lot of them.  I also got a
            chance to thumb through Dragon 280 a few days ago, and here are the
            feature requests I've come up with in order to make the class
            (Eldritch Master) compatible:
            >
            > 1) Set a prerequsite for a Prestige class that the character must
            cast arcane spells as a Bard or Sorcerer does (also needed for a feat
            in FR, now that I mention it).

            As in not needing to memorize? So something like PREMEMORIZE:N and
            PRESPELLTYPE:Arcane?
            DAVE:Yes - however, the two need to be combined into a single tag.  Dragonlance 3e (which I discussed in the original email) introduces divine spellcasters that do not need to prepare spells.  Technically, if there was a separate PREMEMORIZE tag, a character with such a divine class and levels in wizard would classify for Eldritch Master - which shouldn't be the case.
             
             

            > 2) Ability to add known spells to a character's list even when not
            castable by that class (probably already available without problem,
            but I'm not sure...)
            This is available to a small extent via domains, but your request
            seems broader than that. What exactly would be responsible for adding
            spells to the known spells list - and would it need to specify which
            class' known spell list?
            DAVE:Basically, it would give the Eldritch Master a "known spells" list, but they wouldn't be castable (they would have to be cast with Sorcerer spell slots - something handled in-game).
             
             

            > 3) Class gains a spell slot of one level higher than currently
            castable at a given level (for example, a sorcerer who can cast level
            6 spells would gain a level 7 spell slot), as well as adding one
            known spell for the level just gained - ability adds spells to the
            original class's spell list (i.e. the Eldritch Master class adds the
            spell slot to the Sorcerer list but should probably have its own
            spell list for the extra spells gained by ability #2, due to ability
            #4).

            Something like BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_HIGH1|Sorceror|1
            which could also become BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_level|classname|number
            with level being HIGH for highest level available, or HIGH1 for a
            level above that.

            DAVE: Something like that.  However, it could technically be any class that satisfies criteria for request #1 (currently only Sorcerer, Bard, or Rage Mage cast like that, but there will be more...). 
             
             
            > 4) Class can "cast spells as another class", and can gain
            additional classes at later levels they can cast as.  This ability is
            two-fold - first off, the Eldritch Master gains (at 4th and 8th
            level) an additional spell list they can learn spells from. Second,
            it makes adding other classes easier - character classes can be made
            that duplicate another classes list without having to edit the
            spell.lst file.  [It would also enable a class that works entirely
            off of domain spells (an idea I've had, and apparently so have others
            - more on that later) to be added easily, since it could add both the
            spells and powers in the character's list with a simple tag.  Ex:
            CASTAS:#|DOMAINS|Y or N where # is the number of domains gained, Y or
            N is whether or not domain powers are gained.]  The tag would add the
            spells directly to the character's spell list.  Since the Eldritch
            Master never implies that, if the character gains additional Sorcerer
            levels, new known Sorcerer spells can be picked from this additional
            class lists gained, I would rather keep the known spells separate -
            since characters with Known Spell limitations don't memorize anyway,
            there's no need to integrate them.

            Wow - that's a lot to put my brain around.
            First off - something in the class.lst like
            4     SPELL:spell a, spell b, spell c|1 meaning that at 4th level
            spells a b and c are added to the available list of 1st level spells.
            a second SPELL:spell d, spell e, spell f|2 would be likewise for
            level 2 spells.
            Second off - you want
             
             
            DAVE: I'm not sure what you're referring to here.  When I said that the Eldritch Master gains additional known spells, I meant they gain spell slots (i.e. Increase on the Known Spells table).  I don't think that part of it will be too much of an issue - If you can get the other functions working, the above spell-addition syntax should be unnecessary.
             
             
            CASTAS:#|domainlist|Y/N - which would give the class access to the
            specified domains (wouldn't the # be redundant since it's true for
            all the domains in the list?)
            or
            CASTAS:list|flag
            where list is a list of domains, or classes (for classes, like
            Sorcerer it would be just one classname:Wizard) and flag is Y/N which
            would only be used with regards to domains and whether or not the
            granted power comes along as well as the spells. Maybe for classes
            the flag could be an integer indicating the maximum level of spells
            the class has access to from the other class.

            DAVE:What I mean here is this:
             
            CASTAS: flag with syntax CASTAS:#|TYPE(list)|qualifier, where # is the number of choices made, TYPE is CLASS or DOMAIN (and list is the list of said classes or domains), and the qualifier is either Y/N for domain powers or a # for the CLASS tag to indicate max castable level.  The reason for the # is that the Dragonlance classes I talked about each get three domains from a list that they can cast (and get the domain powers), but that is their only spell list.  While in theory they could go in and select domains on the Domain tag, there are no deities in 5th Age.  Additionally, it is possibe for them to gain feats which adds additional spells or domains to that spell list.  The classname wouldn't be listed for the Eldritch Master - they can take ANY classes spell list and add it to their own (though using Wizard spells is a bit redundant).
             
             
             
            >
            > In my web surfing, I found Tracy Hickman's relatively new
            Dragonlance Nexus.  Included are some new classes for DL (both DnD 2E
            and SAGA settings, all in D20 format), the races, and some other
            goodies.  I will be working on integrating these into the program
            soon.  However, two classes from the 5th Age/SAGA setting (Mystic and
            Sorcerer) REQUIRE ability #4 listed above to work properly.

            Another Sorcerer? Hm, then I do need to get the current Sorcerer
            working properly as currently I have it hardcoded to use the Wizard
            list. Adding the CASTAS:Wizard|9 as you suggest would correct that.
            DAVE: The other Sorcerer works in a way I've been batting around for a while - they get three Domains (new domain list) from which to cast, and those are their spells - period.  Speaking of which - is there any way to code a feat that can add either a spell or a domain to a caster's list?
             
             

            >
            > Furthermore, I've been reviewing the Open Gaming License to see how
            compatible PCgen is with the guidelines, as well as seeing if we
            qualify to use the d20 System Logo.  For the most part, PCgen is
            clear - which is good.  It prevents any sort of lawsuit,
            discontinuation of the program, etc.  Here are the issues I've seen:
            >
            > 1) PCgen uses product identity in it's core form.  By "Product
            Identity," I mean Campaign names.  Everything else is pretty much
            free game, actually - with the possible exception of the deity names
            and epithets used in the products.
            > 2) I'm still trying to find out how close the Combat Tracker comes
            to making PCgen an "Interactive Game" according to the D20 Trademark
            Guidelines - for the most part, I think we're ok there, though.
            >
            > Now the question is, how do we get around violating the OGL?  In my
            forays to the WotC message boards, I've come across a pseudo-
            solution.  If the "data" for the program (basically, all the LST
            files) is distributed separately from the program (the executable),
            then the program itself should be D20 compatible - trademark use and
            all.  The LST files - which, I believe, will soon be modular anyway,
            contain far too much Product Identity to even be considered
            compatible with the OGL - can, however, be distributed as modules for
            users to download separately from the executable.  The PCgen website
            can be a storehouse for such LST files - however, it would disclaim
            itself from any responsibility over the contents of said files. 
            Users could then download the LST files as they see fit, copy them to
            their PCgen directory, and viola - all is done. (There could, of
            course, be someone to maintain these LST files and make sure that a)
            they are compatible and b) LST files have unique names).
            >
            > Speaking of the LST files, I know I posted an idea regarding how we
            could best accomplish a modular system - I have one addendum to
            that.  If we create separate files for each campaign with the pcc
            extension (PCgen Configuration), then each campaign can have it's own
            config without needing to maintain a master campaign LST file.  That
            way, everything is in a single ZIP, can be extracted without fear of
            overwrite, and allows campaigns to be added and removed with ease.

            okay - I've been through all the campaign discussions and my head is
            swimming. You're suggesting that we have a pcc for each campaign. In
            each campaign.pcc would be - what, the complete details of everything
            it required (the contents of the race.lst it needed, same for
            class.lst, skill.lst, etc. getting rid of the need for lst files
            entirely?), or a hybrid of references to the core lst files along
            with full detail on anything in the campaign not contained in the
            core lst files, or some other option? I suspect you mean something
            along the lines of the second option.

            DAVE: I'm suggesting a fragmented LST file scheme (the phbfeat.lst, FRfeat.lst, SWfeat.lst, etc) and a separate PCC file that refers to those files.  Additionally, the "core" list files can't be considered core according to D20 - if we're going to use it, nothing can be core.  The reason for this scheme is it also allows building of new campaigns without crossreferencing PCC files (if I want to use a feat, and the feat is only available in starwars.pcc, I have to start refering to PCC and LST files, which can start to get annoying after a while).  The "Core" items would be moved to LST files with the phb, dmg, and sw prefixes and would be the "typical" modules people first download.  This method also prevents a single file from being too big and difficult to manage.
             
             
            And I believe that the Combat screen would not constitute a game by
            any stretch of meaning - it's simply a tracker. I doubt people will
            be entertained for hours and hours hitting the Roll Init button.
            Well, I have on ocassion... just kidding! :)

            >
            > Dave

            as always Dave, thanks for your insights and suggestions!

            -Bryan
             
             
            Dave
          • Erin
            then go to format and select plain text. ... From: David Cortijo To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re:
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 2, 2001
              then go to format and select plain text.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Some requests, issues, and others...

              I hate HMTL email in Outlook - this line is bugging me - it should be clear what text is mine, though.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: mocha@...
              Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:00 PM
              Subject: [pcgen] Re: Some requests, issues, and others...

              --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
              > Some very interesting requests lately - I've added a good number to
              the list over the past 20 minutes.  Even so, it seems like Bryan is
              making some impressive progress on a lot of them.  I also got a
              chance to thumb through Dragon 280 a few days ago, and here are the
              feature requests I've come up with in order to make the class
              (Eldritch Master) compatible:
              >
              > 1) Set a prerequsite for a Prestige class that the character must
              cast arcane spells as a Bard or Sorcerer does (also needed for a feat
              in FR, now that I mention it).

              As in not needing to memorize? So something like PREMEMORIZE:N and
              PRESPELLTYPE:Arcane?
              DAVE:Yes - however, the two need to be combined into a single tag.  Dragonlance 3e (which I discussed in the original email) introduces divine spellcasters that do not need to prepare spells.  Technically, if there was a separate PREMEMORIZE tag, a character with such a divine class and levels in wizard would classify for Eldritch Master - which shouldn't be the case.
               
               

              > 2) Ability to add known spells to a character's list even when not
              castable by that class (probably already available without problem,
              but I'm not sure...)
              This is available to a small extent via domains, but your request
              seems broader than that. What exactly would be responsible for adding
              spells to the known spells list - and would it need to specify which
              class' known spell list?
               
               

              > 3) Class gains a spell slot of one level higher than currently
              castable at a given level (for example, a sorcerer who can cast level
              6 spells would gain a level 7 spell slot), as well as adding one
              known spell for the level just gained - ability adds spells to the
              original class's spell list (i.e. the Eldritch Master class adds the
              spell slot to the Sorcerer list but should probably have its own
              spell list for the extra spells gained by ability #2, due to ability
              #4).

              Something like BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_HIGH1|Sorceror|1
              which could also become BONUS:SPELL_SLOT_level|classname|number
              with level being HIGH for highest level available, or HIGH1 for a
              level above that.

              > 4) Class can "cast spells as another class", and can gain
              additional classes at later levels they can cast as.  This ability is
              two-fold - first off, the Eldritch Master gains (at 4th and 8th
              level) an additional spell list they can learn spells from. Second,
              it makes adding other classes easier - character classes can be made
              that duplicate another classes list without having to edit the
              spell.lst file.  [It would also enable a class that works entirely
              off of domain spells (an idea I've had, and apparently so have others
              - more on that later) to be added easily, since it could add both the
              spells and powers in the character's list with a simple tag.  Ex:
              CASTAS:#|DOMAINS|Y or N where # is the number of domains gained, Y or
              N is whether or not domain powers are gained.]  The tag would add the
              spells directly to the character's spell list.  Since the Eldritch
              Master never implies that, if the character gains additional Sorcerer
              levels, new known Sorcerer spells can be picked from this additional
              class lists gained, I would rather keep the known spells separate -
              since characters with Known Spell limitations don't memorize anyway,
              there's no need to integrate them.

              Wow - that's a lot to put my brain around.
              First off - something in the class.lst like
              4     SPELL:spell a, spell b, spell c|1 meaning that at 4th level
              spells a b and c are added to the available list of 1st level spells.
              a second SPELL:spell d, spell e, spell f|2 would be likewise for
              level 2 spells.
              Second off - you want
              CASTAS:#|domainlist|Y/N - which would give the class access to the
              specified domains (wouldn't the # be redundant since it's true for
              all the domains in the list?)
              or
              CASTAS:list|flag
              where list is a list of domains, or classes (for classes, like
              Sorcerer it would be just one classname:Wizard) and flag is Y/N which
              would only be used with regards to domains and whether or not the
              granted power comes along as well as the spells. Maybe for classes
              the flag could be an integer indicating the maximum level of spells
              the class has access to from the other class.

              >
              > In my web surfing, I found Tracy Hickman's relatively new
              Dragonlance Nexus.  Included are some new classes for DL (both DnD 2E
              and SAGA settings, all in D20 format), the races, and some other
              goodies.  I will be working on integrating these into the program
              soon.  However, two classes from the 5th Age/SAGA setting (Mystic and
              Sorcerer) REQUIRE ability #4 listed above to work properly.

              Another Sorcerer? Hm, then I do need to get the current Sorcerer
              working properly as currently I have it hardcoded to use the Wizard
              list. Adding the CASTAS:Wizard|9 as you suggest would correct that.

              >
              > Furthermore, I've been reviewing the Open Gaming License to see how
              compatible PCgen is with the guidelines, as well as seeing if we
              qualify to use the d20 System Logo.  For the most part, PCgen is
              clear - which is good.  It prevents any sort of lawsuit,
              discontinuation of the program, etc.  Here are the issues I've seen:
              >
              > 1) PCgen uses product identity in it's core form.  By "Product
              Identity," I mean Campaign names.  Everything else is pretty much
              free game, actually - with the possible exception of the deity names
              and epithets used in the products.
              > 2) I'm still trying to find out how close the Combat Tracker comes
              to making PCgen an "Interactive Game" according to the D20 Trademark
              Guidelines - for the most part, I think we're ok there, though.
              >
              > Now the question is, how do we get around violating the OGL?  In my
              forays to the WotC message boards, I've come across a pseudo-
              solution.  If the "data" for the program (basically, all the LST
              files) is distributed separately from the program (the executable),
              then the program itself should be D20 compatible - trademark use and
              all.  The LST files - which, I believe, will soon be modular anyway,
              contain far too much Product Identity to even be considered
              compatible with the OGL - can, however, be distributed as modules for
              users to download separately from the executable.  The PCgen website
              can be a storehouse for such LST files - however, it would disclaim
              itself from any responsibility over the contents of said files. 
              Users could then download the LST files as they see fit, copy them to
              their PCgen directory, and viola - all is done. (There could, of
              course, be someone to maintain these LST files and make sure that a)
              they are compatible and b) LST files have unique names).
              >
              > Speaking of the LST files, I know I posted an idea regarding how we
              could best accomplish a modular system - I have one addendum to
              that.  If we create separate files for each campaign with the pcc
              extension (PCgen Configuration), then each campaign can have it's own
              config without needing to maintain a master campaign LST file.  That
              way, everything is in a single ZIP, can be extracted without fear of
              overwrite, and allows campaigns to be added and removed with ease.

              okay - I've been through all the campaign discussions and my head is
              swimming. You're suggesting that we have a pcc for each campaign. In
              each campaign.pcc would be - what, the complete details of everything
              it required (the contents of the race.lst it needed, same for
              class.lst, skill.lst, etc. getting rid of the need for lst files
              entirely?), or a hybrid of references to the core lst files along
              with full detail on anything in the campaign not contained in the
              core lst files, or some other option? I suspect you mean something
              along the lines of the second option.

              And I believe that the Combat screen would not constitute a game by
              any stretch of meaning - it's simply a tracker. I doubt people will
              be entertained for hours and hours hitting the Roll Init button.
              Well, I have on ocassion... just kidding! :)

              >
              > Dave

              as always Dave, thanks for your insights and suggestions!

              -Bryan




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            • zebuleon@peoplepc.com
              if you haven t yet check out Armybuilder at www.wolflair.com. it is a program that allowes you to create army lists for miniature games. Some of the functions
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 2, 2001
                if you haven't yet check out Armybuilder at www.wolflair.com. it is a
                program that allowes you to create army lists for miniature games.
                Some of the functions could give you ideas on how to better construct
                the .lst stuff and other general issues. all files for armybuilder are
                from outside sources that you download seperatly so it has similarites
                even though its not for the same type of games.

                Mario
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