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[BUG?] monk unarmed attack / flurry of blows # attacks

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  • Stuart Updegrave
    Something was striking me as wrong about these values in general (see quoted text below for ref) -- it works out that PCGen-generated monks have one more
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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      Something was striking me as wrong about these values in general (see
      quoted text below for ref) -- it works out that PCGen-generated monks
      have one more unarmed attack and flurry of blows attack at 10th level
      than they should. I've been trying to figure this out, and think I've
      got a hint of it. (But, I have been known to be horrifically wrong in
      the past).

      In both srdclassesbase.lst and rsrdclassesbase.lst, the first CLASS:Monk
      line contains the following:

      ATTACKCYCLE:UAB|3

      If I'm reading the documentation correctly, that means that the monk
      would add an unarmed attack at 4th, 7th, and 10th level, etc. But,
      according to the table in ClassesI.rtf from rsrd, the level progression
      for adding attacks with flurry of blows is not so clear: 8th, 11th,
      15th.

      The numbers I reported below make it look as if the monk is getting an
      additional unarmed attack, and then yet another additional attack on top
      of that when flurrying. I believe this is incorrect behavior; the monk
      should get the same number of non-flurry unarmed attacks as they do
      melee or ranged; the only time additional attacks come into play are
      when flurrying.

      OK, I just tested this by removing the ATTACKCYCLE declaration listed
      above, and now I get the proper count of unarmed and flurry attacks;
      however, the values are still calculated incorrectly. As far as I can
      tell, the UAB should be the same as the melee attack bonus (+10/+5), and
      at 10th level the flurry attack progression should be the same as
      unarmed / melee attack progression, with an extra attack at the highest
      bonus (+10/+10/+5).

      I hope the additional info proves useful.

      cheers,
      ~stuart





      I blathered on previously on the topic:
      >
      > RE: RSRD v20 -- monk unarmed damage calc incorrect
      >
      > [snip] when I export my character, I get
      > incorrect values displayed for unarmed attack and flurry of
      > blows. I'm pretty sure the latter is based on the former, so
      > that's what I'm focusing on here.
      >
      > 10th level monk, str 16
      >
      > So, that gives a BAB of +7/+2, adjusted to +10/+5 for strength.
      >
      > Here are the values for UA and flurry that I get when exporting:
      > * unarmed attack: +6/+3/+0
      > * flurry of blows: +4/+4/+1/-2
    • Barak
      I missed this the first time, so I ll answer both posts here. ... Not correct. Additional Regular attacks come when you have a BAB of +6, +11, +16 etc.
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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        I missed this the first time, so I'll answer both posts here.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Stuart Updegrave [mailto:stuart@...]

        > The numbers I reported below make it look as if the monk is
        > getting an additional unarmed attack, and then yet another
        > additional attack on top of that when flurrying. I believe
        > this is incorrect behavior; the monk should get the same
        > number of non-flurry unarmed attacks as they do melee or
        > ranged; the only time additional attacks come into play are
        > when flurrying.

        Not correct. Additional "Regular" attacks come when you have a BAB of
        +6, +11, +16 etc. Monk unarmed additional attacks come at BAB s
        +4,+7,+10 etc. (ie: every time your UAB increases by 3)

        At 20th level a monk can have 3 regular melee attacks OR 5 Unarmed
        attacks, BEFORE you add flurry of blows.


        > OK, I just tested this by removing the ATTACKCYCLE
        > declaration listed above, and now I get the proper count of
        > unarmed and flurry attacks; however, the values are still
        > calculated incorrectly. As far as I can tell, the UAB should
        > be the same as the melee attack bonus (+10/+5), and at 10th
        > level the flurry attack progression should be the same as
        > unarmed / melee attack progression, with an extra attack at
        > the highest bonus (+10/+10/+5).

        No. That's not how it works.

        1) Flurry of Blows is an unarmed attack, so it goes from the unarmed
        attack sequence (see above).

        2) Flurry of Blows is like Rapid Shot, you get an extra attack at the
        highest bonus, but all attacks are at -2.

        > > 10th level monk, str 16
        > >
        > > So, that gives a BAB of +7/+2, adjusted to +10/+5 for strength.
        > >
        > > Here are the values for UA and flurry that I get when exporting:
        > > * unarmed attack: +6/+3/+0
        > > * flurry of blows: +4/+4/+1/-2

        Hehe... This is funny. For some reason, Monks are showing as not being
        proficient with unarmed attacks. That's where the initial -4 is coming
        from. Those numbers should be +10/+7/+4 and +8/+8/+5/+2.

        Barak
        ~PCGen BoD
        ~OS Silverback
      • taluroniscandar
        ... The above is correct for SRD but not for RSRD. Monks Unarmed attacks and FoB were changed radically in the RSRD but now match all other attack cycles. The
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@v...> wrote:
          > I missed this the first time, so I'll answer both posts here.
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Stuart Updegrave [mailto:stuart@v...]
          >
          > > The numbers I reported below make it look as if the monk is
          > > getting an additional unarmed attack, and then yet another
          > > additional attack on top of that when flurrying. I believe
          > > this is incorrect behavior; the monk should get the same
          > > number of non-flurry unarmed attacks as they do melee or
          > > ranged; the only time additional attacks come into play are
          > > when flurrying.
          >
          > Not correct. Additional "Regular" attacks come when you have a BAB of
          > +6, +11, +16 etc. Monk unarmed additional attacks come at BAB s
          > +4,+7,+10 etc. (ie: every time your UAB increases by 3)
          >
          > At 20th level a monk can have 3 regular melee attacks OR 5 Unarmed
          > attacks, BEFORE you add flurry of blows.
          >
          >
          > > OK, I just tested this by removing the ATTACKCYCLE
          > > declaration listed above, and now I get the proper count of
          > > unarmed and flurry attacks; however, the values are still
          > > calculated incorrectly. As far as I can tell, the UAB should
          > > be the same as the melee attack bonus (+10/+5), and at 10th
          > > level the flurry attack progression should be the same as
          > > unarmed / melee attack progression, with an extra attack at
          > > the highest bonus (+10/+10/+5).
          >
          > No. That's not how it works.
          >
          > 1) Flurry of Blows is an unarmed attack, so it goes from the unarmed
          > attack sequence (see above).
          >
          > 2) Flurry of Blows is like Rapid Shot, you get an extra attack at the
          > highest bonus, but all attacks are at -2.
          >
          > > > 10th level monk, str 16
          > > >
          > > > So, that gives a BAB of +7/+2, adjusted to +10/+5 for strength.
          > > >
          > > > Here are the values for UA and flurry that I get when exporting:
          > > > * unarmed attack: +6/+3/+0
          > > > * flurry of blows: +4/+4/+1/-2
          >
          > Hehe... This is funny. For some reason, Monks are showing as not being
          > proficient with unarmed attacks. That's where the initial -4 is coming
          > from. Those numbers should be +10/+7/+4 and +8/+8/+5/+2.
          >

          The above is correct for SRD but not for RSRD.

          Monks Unarmed attacks and FoB were changed radically in the RSRD but
          now match all other attack cycles.
          The correct RSRD FoB value for the above 10th level, 16 Str example is
          +10/+10/+5.
          The attack cycle for unarmed monks in RSRD is five (not three).

          RSRD FoB functions as follows:
          1st-4th level: one extra attack at BAB, -2 on all.
          5th-8th level: one extra attack at BAB, -1 on all.
          9th-10th level: one extra attack at BAB, no minuses.
          11th+ level: two extra attacks at BAB, no minuses. At this point it is
          listed as Greater Flurry on the level chart.
          Can be used with 'Monk' weapons (only). All weapons/unarmed receive
          Str bonus regardless of hand [primary, secondary] or weapon type
          [light, one-hand, two-hand], i.e. no x1-1/2, no x1/2.
        • Brass Tilde
          ... I may be recollecting incorrectly, but I thought the original question had to do with the 3.5 SRD. In 3.5, the Monk s unarmed attacks aren t that
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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            > > The numbers I reported below make it look as if the monk is
            > > getting an additional unarmed attack, and then yet another
            > > additional attack on top of that when flurrying. I believe
            > > this is incorrect behavior; the monk should get the same
            > > number of non-flurry unarmed attacks as they do melee or
            > > ranged; the only time additional attacks come into play are
            > > when flurrying.
            >
            > Not correct. Additional "Regular" attacks come when you have a BAB of
            > +6, +11, +16 etc. Monk unarmed additional attacks come at BAB s
            > +4,+7,+10 etc. (ie: every time your UAB increases by 3)

            I may be recollecting incorrectly, but I thought the original question had
            to do with the 3.5 SRD. In 3.5, the Monk's unarmed attacks aren't that
            different from the ordinary attacks. They follow the same progression, with
            some bonuses, as other characters, instead of a completely different
            progression.
          • Barak
            Ooops. My apologies, I thought it was a question about the 3.0 stuff. Sorry for the confusion. :p Although I ll submit the feeble defense that he DID mention
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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              Ooops. My apologies, I thought it was a question about the 3.0 stuff.
              Sorry for the confusion. :p

              Although I'll submit the feeble defense that he DID mention
              srdclassesbase.lst as well. :)

              *mental note: Have caffiene BEFORE posting*

              Barak
              ~PCGen BoD
              ~OS Silverback


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Brass Tilde [mailto:brasstilde@...]

              > I may be recollecting incorrectly, but I thought the original
              > question had to do with the 3.5 SRD. In 3.5, the Monk's
              > unarmed attacks aren't that different from the ordinary
              > attacks. They follow the same progression, with some
              > bonuses, as other characters, instead of a completely
              > different progression.
            • Barak
              ... [snip embarassing explanatin for misunderstood question] ... WOW. They certainly did change it. That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: taluroniscandar [mailto:mhgj@...]

                [snip embarassing explanatin for misunderstood question]

                > The above is correct for SRD but not for RSRD.
                >
                > Monks Unarmed attacks and FoB were changed radically in the
                > RSRD but now match all other attack cycles. The correct RSRD
                > FoB value for the above 10th level, 16 Str example is
                > +10/+10/+5.
                > The attack cycle for unarmed monks in RSRD is five (not three).
                >
                > RSRD FoB functions as follows:
                > 1st-4th level: one extra attack at BAB, -2 on all.
                > 5th-8th level: one extra attack at BAB, -1 on all.
                > 9th-10th level: one extra attack at BAB, no minuses.
                > 11th+ level: two extra attacks at BAB, no minuses. At this point it is
                > listed as Greater Flurry on the level chart.

                WOW. They certainly did change it.

                That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks as Merton
                swings and runs away as fast as he can). :)


                Barak
                ~PCGen BoD
                ~OS Silverback
              • supdegrave
                ... yes -- they certainly did. my almost-11th-level monk will be at +11/+11/+11/+6 using flurry. it seems as if they realized that monks should almost always
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@v...> wrote:
                  >
                  > WOW. They certainly did change it.
                  >
                  > That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks as Merton
                  > swings and runs away as fast as he can). :)

                  yes -- they certainly did. my almost-11th-level monk will be at
                  +11/+11/+11/+6 using flurry.

                  it seems as if they realized that monks should almost always be in a
                  position where they want to flurry, so they made it worthwhile to do
                  so. hallelujah!
                • glddragon35
                  ... BAB of ... unarmed ... the ... strength. ... being ... coming ... is ... is ... When I entered the monk for 3.5 I only entered the listed weapon
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "taluroniscandar" <mhgj@e...> wrote:
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@v...> wrote:
                    > > I missed this the first time, so I'll answer both posts here.
                    > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Stuart Updegrave [mailto:stuart@v...]
                    > >
                    > > > The numbers I reported below make it look as if the monk is
                    > > > getting an additional unarmed attack, and then yet another
                    > > > additional attack on top of that when flurrying. I believe
                    > > > this is incorrect behavior; the monk should get the same
                    > > > number of non-flurry unarmed attacks as they do melee or
                    > > > ranged; the only time additional attacks come into play are
                    > > > when flurrying.
                    > >
                    > > Not correct. Additional "Regular" attacks come when you have a
                    BAB of
                    > > +6, +11, +16 etc. Monk unarmed additional attacks come at BAB s
                    > > +4,+7,+10 etc. (ie: every time your UAB increases by 3)
                    > >
                    > > At 20th level a monk can have 3 regular melee attacks OR 5 Unarmed
                    > > attacks, BEFORE you add flurry of blows.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > OK, I just tested this by removing the ATTACKCYCLE
                    > > > declaration listed above, and now I get the proper count of
                    > > > unarmed and flurry attacks; however, the values are still
                    > > > calculated incorrectly. As far as I can tell, the UAB should
                    > > > be the same as the melee attack bonus (+10/+5), and at 10th
                    > > > level the flurry attack progression should be the same as
                    > > > unarmed / melee attack progression, with an extra attack at
                    > > > the highest bonus (+10/+10/+5).
                    > >
                    > > No. That's not how it works.
                    > >
                    > > 1) Flurry of Blows is an unarmed attack, so it goes from the
                    unarmed
                    > > attack sequence (see above).
                    > >
                    > > 2) Flurry of Blows is like Rapid Shot, you get an extra attack at
                    the
                    > > highest bonus, but all attacks are at -2.
                    > >
                    > > > > 10th level monk, str 16
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, that gives a BAB of +7/+2, adjusted to +10/+5 for
                    strength.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here are the values for UA and flurry that I get when
                    exporting:
                    > > > > * unarmed attack: +6/+3/+0
                    > > > > * flurry of blows: +4/+4/+1/-2
                    > >
                    > > Hehe... This is funny. For some reason, Monks are showing as not
                    being
                    > > proficient with unarmed attacks. That's where the initial -4 is
                    coming
                    > > from. Those numbers should be +10/+7/+4 and +8/+8/+5/+2.
                    > >
                    >
                    > The above is correct for SRD but not for RSRD.
                    >
                    > Monks Unarmed attacks and FoB were changed radically in the RSRD but
                    > now match all other attack cycles.
                    > The correct RSRD FoB value for the above 10th level, 16 Str example
                    is
                    > +10/+10/+5.
                    > The attack cycle for unarmed monks in RSRD is five (not three).
                    >
                    > RSRD FoB functions as follows:
                    > 1st-4th level: one extra attack at BAB, -2 on all.
                    > 5th-8th level: one extra attack at BAB, -1 on all.
                    > 9th-10th level: one extra attack at BAB, no minuses.
                    > 11th+ level: two extra attacks at BAB, no minuses. At this point it
                    is
                    > listed as Greater Flurry on the level chart.
                    > Can be used with 'Monk' weapons (only). All weapons/unarmed receive
                    > Str bonus regardless of hand [primary, secondary] or weapon type
                    > [light, one-hand, two-hand], i.e. no x1-1/2, no x1/2.

                    When I entered the monk for 3.5 I only entered the listed weapon
                    proficiencies from the text and did not add unarmed strike to the
                    list. Of course my personal opinion is that all characters should be
                    automaticly proficient in unarmed strike since it is essentially
                    natural weapons.

                    GldDragon35
                  • Drew Bernat
                    ... Sorry, but in 3.5 a monk can attack faster than you can, and run too. Good luck! Drew -- Drew Bernat __ ____
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                      On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Barak wrote:

                      > WOW. They certainly did change it.
                      >
                      > That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks as Merton
                      > swings and runs away as fast as he can). :)

                      Sorry, but in 3.5 a monk can attack faster than you can, and run too.

                      Good luck!

                      Drew

                      --
                      Drew Bernat __ ____
                      abernat@... | | |
                      http://www.zathras.net | |
                    • merton_monk
                      ... it is ... Considering that Merton was converted from 1ed to 3e at 17th level, I didn t have to mess with the lower-level Unarmed attack routines. :) And
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@v...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: taluroniscandar [mailto:mhgj@e...]
                        >
                        > [snip embarassing explanatin for misunderstood question]
                        >
                        > > The above is correct for SRD but not for RSRD.
                        > >
                        > > Monks Unarmed attacks and FoB were changed radically in the
                        > > RSRD but now match all other attack cycles. The correct RSRD
                        > > FoB value for the above 10th level, 16 Str example is
                        > > +10/+10/+5.
                        > > The attack cycle for unarmed monks in RSRD is five (not three).
                        > >
                        > > RSRD FoB functions as follows:
                        > > 1st-4th level: one extra attack at BAB, -2 on all.
                        > > 5th-8th level: one extra attack at BAB, -1 on all.
                        > > 9th-10th level: one extra attack at BAB, no minuses.
                        > > 11th+ level: two extra attacks at BAB, no minuses. At this point
                        it is
                        > > listed as Greater Flurry on the level chart.
                        >
                        > WOW. They certainly did change it.
                        >
                        > That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks as Merton
                        > swings and runs away as fast as he can). :)

                        Considering that Merton was converted from 1ed to 3e at 17th level, I
                        didn't have to mess with the lower-level Unarmed attack routines. :)

                        And you can run as fast as you want - at 100'/rd walking I'll catch
                        up to you after I finish my latte. :)

                        I haven't looked at Merton in 3.5e yet. I like the changes as
                        well! :D

                        -Merton

                        >
                        >
                        > Barak
                        > ~PCGen BoD
                        > ~OS Silverback
                      • merton_monk
                        ... a ... do ... But what about Lightning Fist from Sword and Fist? I use that against easier-to-hit-foes and impossible-to-hit-foes (or when I want a lot of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "supdegrave" <stuart@v...> wrote:
                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@v...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > WOW. They certainly did change it.
                          > >
                          > > That actually makes a monk sorta worthwhile now. (Ducks as Merton
                          > > swings and runs away as fast as he can). :)
                          >
                          > yes -- they certainly did. my almost-11th-level monk will be at
                          > +11/+11/+11/+6 using flurry.
                          >
                          > it seems as if they realized that monks should almost always be in
                          a
                          > position where they want to flurry, so they made it worthwhile to
                          do
                          > so. hallelujah!

                          But what about Lightning Fist from Sword and Fist? I use that
                          against easier-to-hit-foes and impossible-to-hit-foes (or when I want
                          a lot of chances to stun or to just roll the 20 necessary to hit).
                          Does Greater Flurry lessen the minuses on Lightning Fists? I doubt it
                          does, but I'd be really happy if it did!

                          -Bryan
                        • taluroniscandar
                          ... I don t know the wording of Lightning Fist so I m not sure but...FoB has one specific statement which would make me think no. It is a full attack action to
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 4, 2003
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                            > > yes -- they certainly did. my almost-11th-level monk will be at
                            > > +11/+11/+11/+6 using flurry.
                            > >
                            > > it seems as if they realized that monks should almost always be
                            > > in a position where they want to flurry, so they made it
                            > > worthwhile to do so. hallelujah!
                            >
                            > But what about Lightning Fist from Sword and Fist? I use that
                            > against easier-to-hit-foes and impossible-to-hit-foes (or when I want
                            > a lot of chances to stun or to just roll the 20 necessary to hit).
                            > Does Greater Flurry lessen the minuses on Lightning Fists? I doubt it
                            > does, but I'd be really happy if it did!

                            I don't know the wording of Lightning Fist so I'm not sure but...FoB
                            has one specific statement which would make me think no. It is a full
                            attack action to use FoB. It does say you can intersperse unarmed and
                            monk weapon attacks in any combination during the FoB. Ultimately it
                            up to your DM but unless LF says it can be used during a FoB or that
                            it is a free action I doubt it.
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