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RE: [pcgen] BUG/FEATURES

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  • arcady
    ... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Lonestar [mailto:Lonestar@...]
      > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 11:29 AM
      > To: mocha@...
      > Subject: [pcgen] BUG/FEATURES
      >
      >
      > Hi everyone!
      >
      > I found another little feature that should be tweaked:
      > When you're not a Cleric you should be able to choose a diety
      > independent of the Followers Alignment. In the campaign I'm DMing (FR,
      > right after the times of trouble) basically everyone believes in a god
      > and why shouldn't a Lawful Neutral monk believe in Lathander (NG,
      > Followers (Priests): LG, NG, CG)?
      >

      Well you're choosing the deity that is close to your heart. So it should
      still be bound by alignment.

      Everyone believes in all of the deities; because they're all there.
      There is no concept of 'faith' in a world where the divine has a material
      presence. It's not about belief; it's about who is special to your heart and
      your lifestyle.


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    • Brandon Blackmoor
      ... A human being s heart does not have sharp edges, and deities often have more than one aspect. Chosen deity should not be restricted by alignment. Leave
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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        > From: arcady [mailto:arcady0@...]
        > Subject: RE: [pcgen] BUG/FEATURES
        >
        >
        > Well you're choosing the deity that is close to your heart.
        > So it should still be bound by alignment.

        A human being's heart does not have sharp edges, and deities often
        have more than one aspect. Chosen deity should not be restricted by
        alignment. Leave that for the DM to put restrictions on, if she wants
        to.

        bblackmoor@...
        1 july 2001
      • Lonestar
        ... a Well you re choosing the deity that is close to your heart. So it should a still be bound by alignment. a Everyone believes in all of the deities;
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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          >> I found another little feature that should be tweaked:
          >> When you're not a Cleric you should be able to choose a diety
          >> independent of the Followers Alignment. In the campaign I'm DMing (FR,
          >> right after the times of trouble) basically everyone believes in a god
          >> and why shouldn't a Lawful Neutral monk believe in Lathander (NG,
          >> Followers (Priests): LG, NG, CG)?
          >>

          a> Well you're choosing the deity that is close to your heart. So it should
          a> still be bound by alignment.

          a> Everyone believes in all of the deities; because they're all there.
          a> There is no concept of 'faith' in a world where the divine has a material
          a> presence. It's not about belief; it's about who is special to your heart and
          a> your lifestyle.

          In the Forgotten Realms you know that all the gods exist but you
          believe in the one who's ways are closest to yours. That doesn't mean
          you'll have to be of the same alignment. Who says that you have to be
          lawful to belive in a god of the dead (in the FR the god of the Dead
          is actually LN)? Who says that you have to be good to believe in
          magic?
          After all, alignments are not laws how you char has to behave, they're
          more like a general index for his overall behaviour.
          If a god wants his priests to be of a certain alignment, ok, but a god
          can't prevent anyone to say, "hey, I believe in you".

          I mean having a certain alingment doesn't mean having a certain
          lifestyle. Lets take true neutral for example: 2 extreme
          interpretations of that alignment could be
          - you switch sides all the time to keep perfect balance between good
          and evil
          - you don't really care about what everyone else is doing

          The first might believe in a god of war while the second might believe
          in a god of boredom ;)

          Besides, chars who don't believe in a god in the Realms can't be
          raised.


          Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
        • rabrhe@yahoo.com
          ... All the classes (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger at 4th level or above, blackguard, arcane devotee, divine champion, divine disciple, divine seeker, maybe
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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            >>> I found another little feature that should be tweaked:
            >>> When you're not a Cleric you should be able to choose a diety
            >>> independent of the Followers Alignment.

            >> Well you're choosing the deity that is close to your heart. So it
            >> should still be bound by alignment.

            > In the Forgotten Realms you know that all the gods exist but you
            > believe in the one who's ways are closest to yours. That doesn't
            > mean you'll have to be of the same alignment.

            All the classes (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger at 4th level or above,
            blackguard, arcane devotee, divine champion, divine disciple, divine
            seeker, maybe some others) that require patron deities in FR also
            require that you be alignment-qualified to serve that deity. Now,
            yes, if you aren't one of those classes, you can have a patron deity
            of divergent alignment; but there are no game effects to that choice
            in PCGen terms. So, unless you are of one of those classes, it's
            really a background detail that is handled perfectly well by the
            character description.

            Otherwise, you need to add code that would specifically make checks to
            disqualify you from certain classes based on alignment-and-patron
            combination; e.g. from the Arcane Devotee class if you were a true
            neutral wizard who worshipped Mystra.
          • Lonestar
            ryc All the classes (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger at 4th level or above, ryc blackguard, arcane devotee, divine champion, divine disciple, divine ryc
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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              ryc> All the classes (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger at 4th level or above,
              ryc> blackguard, arcane devotee, divine champion, divine disciple, divine
              ryc> seeker, maybe some others) that require patron deities in FR also
              ryc> require that you be alignment-qualified to serve that deity. Now,
              ryc> yes, if you aren't one of those classes, you can have a patron deity
              ryc> of divergent alignment; but there are no game effects to that choice
              ryc> in PCGen terms. So, unless you are of one of those classes, it's
              ryc> really a background detail that is handled perfectly well by the
              ryc> character description.

              ryc> Otherwise, you need to add code that would specifically make checks to
              ryc> disqualify you from certain classes based on alignment-and-patron
              ryc> combination; e.g. from the Arcane Devotee class if you were a true
              ryc> neutral wizard who worshipped Mystra.

              how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?


              Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
            • rabrhe@yahoo.com
              ... That d work.
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                > how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?

                That'd work.
              • Brandon Blackmoor
                ... Not if the program prevents you from selecting your chosen alignment, which it inexplicably does. Which brings me to what will undoubtedly be an unpopular
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                  > From: rabrhe@... [mailto:rabrhe@...]
                  > Subject: [pcgen] Re: BUG/FEATURES
                  >
                  > So, unless you are of one of those classes, it's
                  > really a background detail that is handled
                  > perfectly well by the character description.

                  Not if the program prevents you from selecting your chosen alignment,
                  which it inexplicably does.

                  Which brings me to what will undoubtedly be an unpopular observation:

                  PCGen tries to do too much. This is why it fails at nearly everything.
                  It can't even add up purchase-mode stats, for pete's sake.

                  Start off small: choose a class, choose stats, choose a race and let
                  it modify those stats. Once that's *working*, *then* move on to skills
                  and whether they're cross-class, and what the stat adjustments for
                  those skills are. Once *that* is working, move on to spell lists based
                  on class. And way, way, way down the road, when the basic stuff ALL
                  *works*, tackle optional widgets like prestige classes.

                  (I won't even get into the interface issues, which need every bit as
                  much planning and obviously aren't getting it either.)

                  That's my two cents.

                  bblackmoor@...
                  1 july 2001
                • rabrhe@yahoo.com
                  ... Huh? I was suggesting that, if the deity you follow isn t relevant to class skills, that you put it in the textbox called Description on the Traits tab,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                    --- In pcgen@y..., "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@b...> wrote:
                    > > From: rabrhe@y... [mailto:rabrhe@y...]
                    > > Subject: [pcgen] Re: BUG/FEATURES
                    > >
                    > > So, unless you are of one of those classes, it's
                    > > really a background detail that is handled
                    > > perfectly well by the character description.
                    >
                    > Not if the program prevents you from selecting your chosen alignment,
                    > which it inexplicably does.

                    Huh?

                    I was suggesting that, if the deity you follow isn't relevant to class
                    skills, that you put it in the textbox called "Description" on the
                    Traits tab, instead of selecting it on the domains tab. What the hell
                    does your "chosen alignment" have to do with that?
                  • Brandon Blackmoor
                    ... Perhaps the previous messages have not reached your mail server, but when they do it ll make sense to you. I guess I should have quoted more of the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                      > From: rabrhe@... [mailto:rabrhe@...]
                      > Subject: [pcgen] Re: BUG/FEATURES
                      >
                      > What the hell does your "chosen alignment" have to do
                      > with that?

                      Perhaps the previous messages have not reached your mail server, but
                      when they do it'll make sense to you. I guess I should have quoted
                      more of the previous messages.

                      blackmoor@...
                      1 july 2001
                    • mocha@mcs.net
                      Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we re going to allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for these non-consequential
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                        Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we're going to
                        allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for these
                        'non-consequential' classes? (not a cleric, paladin, or divine spell
                        caster who actually gains material benefit from the deity chosen)
                        What about the restrictions on selecting feats, prestige classes,
                        domains, etc.? This could potentially be a pandora's box... what
                        restrictions do we allow to be bypassed and under what circumstances?
                        This is kind of like putting restrictions on restrictions... :)

                        -Bryan

                        --- In pcgen@y..., rabrhe@y... wrote:
                        > --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                        > > how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?
                        >
                        > That'd work.
                      • rodac@pnv.net
                        ... to ... circumstances? ... I think instead of a ignore switch/box you should code it to force divine caster to pick correctly and allow others to pick
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                          --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                          > Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we're going
                          to
                          > allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for these
                          > 'non-consequential' classes? (not a cleric, paladin, or divine spell
                          > caster who actually gains material benefit from the deity chosen)
                          > What about the restrictions on selecting feats, prestige classes,
                          > domains, etc.? This could potentially be a pandora's box... what
                          > restrictions do we allow to be bypassed and under what
                          circumstances?
                          > This is kind of like putting restrictions on restrictions... :)
                          >
                          > -Bryan
                          >
                          > --- In pcgen@y..., rabrhe@y... wrote:
                          > > --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                          > > > how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?
                          > >
                          > > That'd work.

                          I think instead of a "ignore" switch/box you should code it to force
                          divine caster to pick correctly and allow others to pick what they
                          want. But do you want this in as part of the main system or can it be
                          coded for campaign? Its a FR thingy. Even though I dont use the
                          campaign 'world' for FR I do use some of its rules and this is one of
                          them. Maybe you should be able to select any deity, ignoring the
                          qualifier. But still keep the qualifier there so Divine casters can
                          use the filter for qualified Deities to make their selection. Or
                          force it to filter qualified deities for anyone who is a divine
                          caster and allow others to do as they wish.
                          -rodney
                        • Lonestar
                          mmn Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we re going to mmn allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for these mmn
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 1, 2001
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                            mmn> Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we're going to
                            mmn> allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for these
                            mmn> 'non-consequential' classes? (not a cleric, paladin, or divine spell
                            mmn> caster who actually gains material benefit from the deity chosen)
                            mmn> What about the restrictions on selecting feats, prestige classes,
                            mmn> domains, etc.? This could potentially be a pandora's box... what
                            mmn> restrictions do we allow to be bypassed and under what circumstances?
                            mmn> This is kind of like putting restrictions on restrictions... :)

                            mmn> --- In pcgen@y..., rabrhe@y... wrote:
                            >> --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                            >> > how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?

                            Well, I don't wan't to completely switch off that restriction for all
                            cases, I just want my players to be able to select their diety which
                            then should appear in the diety field on the char sheet ;)
                            It might be a good idea though to have a Options tab for each char
                            where you can customize the restrictions, maybe with some sort of
                            logging in the pcg file or a "DM check" function that tells you which
                            restrictions were turned off while creating that char.
                            There should be an automated check function anyways....
                            One that lets the DM set up parameters for char creation like max stat
                            pool, item restriction, alignment restrictions, race restrictions and
                            such and then have the program check .pcg files if the chars were
                            created correctly.


                            Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
                          • mocha@mcs.net
                            Or should we simply allow any character to select a Deity and only apply the restrictions to divine spell casters or anyone who would be able to select a
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 2, 2001
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                              Or should we simply allow any character to select a Deity and only
                              apply the restrictions to divine spell casters or anyone who would be
                              able to select a domain? That complicates things, because suppose
                              you start off as a Wizard, select a deity, then add a level of
                              Cleric, and suddenly you have to switch deities...

                              -Bryan

                              --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                              > mmn> Would we want something broader than that? I mean - if we're
                              going to
                              > mmn> allow bypass of restrictions on Deities, should it be just for
                              these
                              > mmn> 'non-consequential' classes? (not a cleric, paladin, or divine
                              spell
                              > mmn> caster who actually gains material benefit from the deity
                              chosen)
                              > mmn> What about the restrictions on selecting feats, prestige
                              classes,
                              > mmn> domains, etc.? This could potentially be a pandora's box...
                              what
                              > mmn> restrictions do we allow to be bypassed and under what
                              circumstances?
                              > mmn> This is kind of like putting restrictions on restrictions... :)
                              >
                              > mmn> --- In pcgen@y..., rabrhe@y... wrote:
                              > >> --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                              > >> > how about a "ignore alignment restrictions"-checkbox?
                              >
                              > Well, I don't wan't to completely switch off that restriction for
                              all
                              > cases, I just want my players to be able to select their diety which
                              > then should appear in the diety field on the char sheet ;)
                              > It might be a good idea though to have a Options tab for each char
                              > where you can customize the restrictions, maybe with some sort of
                              > logging in the pcg file or a "DM check" function that tells you
                              which
                              > restrictions were turned off while creating that char.
                              > There should be an automated check function anyways....
                              > One that lets the DM set up parameters for char creation like max
                              stat
                              > pool, item restriction, alignment restrictions, race restrictions
                              and
                              > such and then have the program check .pcg files if the chars were
                              > created correctly.
                              >
                              >
                              > Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@l...
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