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Re: Paladins and +1 Half-Plate....

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  • mocha@mcs.net
    ... I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to those skills - proficiency doesn t matter. The only skill where proficiency matters is
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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      --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
      >
      > I really hate to say this, but...
      >
      > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other than
      > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm still
      > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
      >
      > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
      > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
      > armors proficiently.

      I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to those
      skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where proficiency
      matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
      will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use the
      armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).

      I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
      skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and make a
      quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
      correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
      your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.

      -Bryan


      >
      > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in the
      > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks, though
      > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
      >
      > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these are
      > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
    • Chris
      Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the skills mentioned for
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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        Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
        to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
        skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
        section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
        Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
        dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
        where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
        Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
        penalty.

        Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out please!


        > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
        those
        > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
        proficiency
        > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
        > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
        the
        > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
        >
        > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
        > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
        make a
        > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
        > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
        > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
        >
        > -Bryan
      • Lonestar
        C Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply C to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the C skills
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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          C> Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
          C> to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
          C> skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
          C> section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
          C> Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
          C> dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
          C> where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
          C> Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
          C> penalty.

          C> Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out please!

          Armor check penalties only apply to movement-based skills (this
          includes riding) when you're not proficient with the armor you're
          using. PHB p104

          Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
        • mocha@mcs.net
          Maybe we need the sage on this, but, to quote the PHB 104 in the Armor Check Penalty section... Anything heavier than ;eather hurts your ability to use some
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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            Maybe we need the sage on this, but, to quote the PHB 104 in the Armor
            Check Penalty section...
            "Anything heavier than ;eather hurts your ability to use some of your
            skills. Some characters don't much care, but others do. The barbarian,
            in particular, faces a trade-off between heavier armor and better
            skill checks, Skills: The armor check penalty number is the armor
            check penalty you apply to certain skill checks. (Notice no mention of
            proficiency : merton_monk). If you're wearing any armor heavier than
            leather, you can't climb, sneak or tumble as well as you would if you
            weren't wearing such heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance,
            Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and
            Tumble checks. Swim checks face a similar penalty based on the weight
            of the gear you are carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
            in PCGen : merton_monk). Shields: If you are wearing armor and using
            a shield, both armor check penalties apply. Nonproficient with Armor
            Worn: If you wear armor with which you are not proficient, you suffer
            the armor's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill rolls
            that involve moving, including Ride (I take this to mean in addition
            to the skills previously mentioned, and any other newly creates Skills
            people add that generally involve moving - which are most of your Dex
            and Str based skills : merton_monk)

            So that's my interpretation, and I'll stick with it unless someone
            (and I mean a really good argument or a Sage) can convince me otherwise.

            -Bryan (merton_monk)

            --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
            > C> Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
            > C> to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
            > C> skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
            > C> section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
            > C> Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
            > C> dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
            > C> where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
            > C> Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
            > C> penalty.
            >
            > C> Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
            please!
            >
            > Armor check penalties only apply to movement-based skills (this
            > includes riding) when you're not proficient with the armor you're
            > using. PHB p104
            >
            > Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@l...
          • Mark Hulsman
            One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply, currently its hard coded (or I
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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              One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to
              skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply,
              currently its hard coded (or I just can't find where it is in the lst
              files). It would be a lot better for new skills to put that in with
              the skill entry so that if someone inputs a skill that it applies to,
              they don't have to change the code.

              > Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties
              apply
              > to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
              > skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
              > section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
              > Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
              > dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
              > where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
              > Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
              > penalty.
              >
              > Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
              please!
              >
              >
              > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
              > those
              > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
              > proficiency
              > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so
              you
              > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
              use
              > the
              > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
              > >
              > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor
              on
              > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
              > make a
              > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
              > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
              believe
              > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
              > >
              > > -Bryan
            • Chris
              ... sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren t wearing such heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                in PCGen : merton_monk).

                So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....

                > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                merton_monk)

                Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                other skills are.

                I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                wrong before...

                - Chris
              • mocha@mcs.net
                In the Skill lst files you ll see ACHECK:Y for skills where the armor check always applies, ACHECK:P for skills where it only applies in non-proficient armor
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                  In the Skill lst files you'll see ACHECK:Y for skills where the armor
                  check always applies, ACHECK:P for skills where it only applies in
                  non-proficient armor (like Ride). The default is ACHECK:N - which
                  means no armor check penalty.

                  -Bryan


                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                  > One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to
                  > skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply,
                  > currently its hard coded (or I just can't find where it is in the lst
                  > files). It would be a lot better for new skills to put that in with
                  > the skill entry so that if someone inputs a skill that it applies to,
                  > they don't have to change the code.
                  >
                  > > Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties
                  > apply
                  > > to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                  > > skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                  > > section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                  > > Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                  > > dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                  > > where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                  > > Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                  > > penalty.
                  > >
                  > > Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
                  > please!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                  > > those
                  > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                  > > proficiency
                  > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so
                  > you
                  > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                  > use
                  > > the
                  > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                  > > >
                  > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor
                  > on
                  > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                  > > make a
                  > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                  > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                  > believe
                  > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                  > > >
                  > > > -Bryan
                • mocha@mcs.net
                  ... PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be applying a -3 since
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                    --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                    > > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                    > sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                    > heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                    > Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                    > checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                    > carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                    > in PCGen : merton_monk).
                    >
                    > So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                    > Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....
                    >
                    > > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                    > not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                    > rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                    > take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                    > any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                    > moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                    > merton_monk)
                    >
                    > Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                    > skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                    > Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                    > penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                    > included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                    > the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                    > not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                    > other skills are.
                    >
                    > I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                    > under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                    > wrong before...

                    PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                    for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                    applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                    occuring with v2.0.3?

                    -Bryan

                    >
                    > - Chris
                  • mocha@mcs.net
                    In my comments, I was referring to just the Ride skill - you re proficient with half-plate, so no armor check penalty. The armor check penalty would still
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                      In my comments, I was referring to just the Ride skill - you're
                      proficient with half-plate, so no armor check penalty. The armor
                      check penalty would still apply to Balance, et. al.

                      -Bryan

                      --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                      > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                      > > > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                      > > sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                      > > heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                      > > Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                      > > checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                      > > carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                      > > in PCGen : merton_monk).
                      > >
                      > > So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                      > > Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....
                      > >
                      > > > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                      > > not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                      > > rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                      > > take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                      > > any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                      > > moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                      > > merton_monk)
                      > >
                      > > Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                      > > skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                      > > Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                      > > penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                      > > included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                      > > the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                      > > not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                      > > other skills are.
                      > >
                      > > I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                      > > under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                      > > wrong before...
                      >
                      > PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                      > for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                      > applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                      > occuring with v2.0.3?
                      >
                      > -Bryan
                      >
                      > >
                      > > - Chris
                    • Robert Ward
                      Bryan, Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo in the new version (2.0.3.) I m still having the same situation as well. My
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                        Bryan,
                        Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo
                        in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                        well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                        light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                        penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?

                        -Robert

                        --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                        > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I really hate to say this, but...
                        > >
                        > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other
                        than
                        > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                        still
                        > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                        > >
                        > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                        > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                        > > armors proficiently.
                        >
                        > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                        those
                        > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                        proficiency
                        > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                        > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
                        the
                        > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                        >
                        > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                        > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                        make a
                        > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                        > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                        > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                        >
                        > -Bryan
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in
                        the
                        > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                        though
                        > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                        > >
                        > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these
                        are
                        > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                      • mocha@mcs.net
                        The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow chainmail. The -2 you re seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a longsword equipped in both
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                          The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                          chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                          longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty due
                          to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing something?

                          -Bryan

                          --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                          > Bryan,
                          > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo
                          > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                          > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                          > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                          > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                          >
                          > -Robert
                          >
                          > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                          > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                          > > >
                          > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other
                          > than
                          > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                          > still
                          > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                          > > >
                          > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                          > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                          > > > armors proficiently.
                          > >
                          > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                          > those
                          > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                          > proficiency
                          > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                          > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
                          > the
                          > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                          > >
                          > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                          > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                          > make a
                          > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                          > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                          > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                          > >
                          > > -Bryan
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in
                          > the
                          > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                          > though
                          > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                          > > >
                          > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these
                          > are
                          > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                        • Robert Ward
                          Ok, I ll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon swords. But it s still not showing right. I ll replace the earlier copy with my current one
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                            Ok, I'll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon
                            swords. But it's still not showing right. I'll replace the earlier
                            copy with my current one which does have the armor equipped. All to
                            hits are -2 (the AC Check penalty) from what I figured it should be.
                            And if I unequip the armor then the to hit rolls go up. If you want
                            me to, I can even upload a unequipped armor pcg file to show you the
                            difference in the two, just let me know. Hopefully I'm not being a
                            pain, I'm honestly not trying to be one. :)

                            -Robert

                            --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                            > The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                            > chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                            > longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty
                            due
                            > to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing
                            something?
                            >
                            > -Bryan
                            >
                            > --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                            > > Bryan,
                            > > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete
                            redo
                            > > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                            > > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                            > > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                            > > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                            > >
                            > > -Robert
                            > >
                            > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                            > > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                            > > > >
                            > > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed,
                            other
                            > > than
                            > > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                            > > still
                            > > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or
                            Ride
                            > > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear
                            all
                            > > > > armors proficiently.
                            > > >
                            > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                            > > those
                            > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                            > > proficiency
                            > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load,
                            so you
                            > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                            use
                            > > the
                            > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                            > > >
                            > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic
                            armor on
                            > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                            > > make a
                            > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where
                            this
                            > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                            believe
                            > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                            > > >
                            > > > -Bryan
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier
                            in
                            > > the
                            > > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                            > > though
                            > > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but
                            these
                            > > are
                            > > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                          • mocha@mcs.net
                            You re not being a pain - you ve been quite helpful! It s getting late so I ll take a look at it tomorrow. -Bryan
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                              You're not being a pain - you've been quite helpful! It's getting
                              late so I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

                              -Bryan

                              --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                              > Ok, I'll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon
                              > swords. But it's still not showing right. I'll replace the earlier
                              > copy with my current one which does have the armor equipped. All to
                              > hits are -2 (the AC Check penalty) from what I figured it should be.
                              > And if I unequip the armor then the to hit rolls go up. If you want
                              > me to, I can even upload a unequipped armor pcg file to show you the
                              > difference in the two, just let me know. Hopefully I'm not being a
                              > pain, I'm honestly not trying to be one. :)
                              >
                              > -Robert
                              >
                              > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                              > > The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                              > > chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                              > > longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty
                              > due
                              > > to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing
                              > something?
                              > >
                              > > -Bryan
                              > >
                              > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                              > > > Bryan,
                              > > > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete
                              > redo
                              > > > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                              > > > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                              > > > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                              > > > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                              > > >
                              > > > -Robert
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                              > > > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed,
                              > other
                              > > > than
                              > > > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                              > > > still
                              > > > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or
                              > Ride
                              > > > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear
                              > all
                              > > > > > armors proficiently.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                              > > > those
                              > > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                              > > > proficiency
                              > > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load,
                              > so you
                              > > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                              > use
                              > > > the
                              > > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic
                              > armor on
                              > > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                              > > > make a
                              > > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where
                              > this
                              > > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                              > believe
                              > > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -Bryan
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier
                              > in
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                              > > > though
                              > > > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but
                              > these
                              > > > are
                              > > > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                            • Chris
                              ... Ah, so it s an encumberance issue. Ok, now according to page 141 of the PHB, the Ride skill is not affected by encumberance either. The penalties listed
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                > PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                                > for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                                > applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                                > occuring with v2.0.3?
                                >
                                > -Bryan

                                Ah, so it's an encumberance issue. Ok, now according to page 141 of
                                the PHB, the Ride skill is not affected by encumberance either. The
                                penalties listed are: maximum Dex bonus to AC, check penalties (which
                                works as an armor check penalty), speed, and run factor.

                                The argument would be if ride should be incorporated in there or not.
                                The rule references armor check penalties, and Ride is not included
                                with those skills. It doesn't reference the penalties for non-
                                proficiency, so this is why I believe Ride should not be penalized
                                for encumberance.

                                - Chris
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