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Re: Paladins and +1 Half-Plate....

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  • mocha@mcs.net
    The order of the TYPE: string shouldn t matter. To clarify (I looked it up to be sure) some skills *always* apply the armor check penalty. The only one which
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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      The order of the TYPE: string shouldn't matter. To clarify (I looked
      it up to be sure) some skills *always* apply the armor check penalty.
      The only one which applies the armor check penality if you're *not*
      proficient with the armor worn is Ride. So PCGen is behaving
      correctly in my understanding of the rules (read PHB page 104 about
      the Armor Check Penalty description).

      -Bryan

      --- In pcgen@y..., "Brass Tilde" <brasstilde@y...> wrote:
      > Bryan,
      >
      > Here are the relevant lines from the appropriate equipment lst files:
      >
      > Half-Plate TYPE:Armor.Heavy.Suit WT:50 Cost:600 AC:7 MAXDEX:0
      > ACCHECK:-7 SPELLFAILURE:40 MOVE:20,15
      > Half-Plate +1 TYPE:Magic.Armor.Heavy.Suit WT:50 Cost:1750 AC:8 MAXDEX:0
      > ACCHECK:-6 SPELLFAILURE:40 MOVE:20,15
      >
      > I rearranged things a little; for the magic one the TYPE and WT
      entries were
      > at the end. Does it make any difference that the TYPE doesn't have
      Armor
      > listed first?
      >
      > Brad
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Chris [mailto:kiltedfrog@h...]
      > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 14:54
      > > To: pcgen@y...
      > > Subject: [pcgen] Re: Paladins and +1 Half-Plate....
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
      > > > Are you encumbered? If you look at the Equipment tab, does PCGen
      > > > recognize you as being proficient with the Armor? You can also see
      > > > there if your load is Light, Medium, Heavy or Over-load.
      > > >
      > > > -Bryan
      > >
      > > I am only mediumly encumbered, and yes, it lists me as proficient in
      > > the armor being used in the equipment tab. The -6 penalty is applied
      > > to all my attack rolls, and to my ride skill. Before I patched up to
      > > 2.02, this wasn't a problem.
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • Chris
      ... penalty. ... Forgive me if I m wrong, but as a Paladin, I am proficient in ALL armors, and therefore, no penalty for Armor should be applied to my ride
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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        --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
        > The order of the TYPE: string shouldn't matter. To clarify (I looked
        > it up to be sure) some skills *always* apply the armor check
        penalty.
        > The only one which applies the armor check penality if you're *not*
        > proficient with the armor worn is Ride. So PCGen is behaving
        > correctly in my understanding of the rules (read PHB page 104 about
        > the Armor Check Penalty description).
        >
        > -Bryan

        Forgive me if I'm wrong, but as a Paladin, I am proficient in ALL
        armors, and therefore, no penalty for Armor should be applied to my
        ride skill. Yet PCGen applies this penalty, at -3 for regular half-
        plate, and -6 for magical half-plate.
      • Robert Ward
        Bryan, You re not going to like this. Similar, if not same issue. I have a Drow Bard/Ranger/Harper Scout (6/3/1) with assorted weapons, including sword (+1
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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          Bryan,
          You're not going to like this. Similar, if not same issue.
          I have a Drow Bard/Ranger/Harper Scout (6/3/1) with assorted weapons,
          including sword (+1 long and +1 short), daggers (masterwork), and a
          +1 mighty composite longbow.
          All weapons are having the armor check penalty applied even though
          this should not be the case. Not sure what the situation is here.
          I'll download the pcg file for this character so you can take a look
          at it as well.

          -Robert
          --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
          > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
          > > The order of the TYPE: string shouldn't matter. To clarify (I
          looked
          > > it up to be sure) some skills *always* apply the armor check
          > penalty.
          > > The only one which applies the armor check penality if you're
          *not*
          > > proficient with the armor worn is Ride. So PCGen is behaving
          > > correctly in my understanding of the rules (read PHB page 104
          about
          > > the Armor Check Penalty description).
          > >
          > > -Bryan
          >
          > Forgive me if I'm wrong, but as a Paladin, I am proficient in ALL
          > armors, and therefore, no penalty for Armor should be applied to my
          > ride skill. Yet PCGen applies this penalty, at -3 for regular half-
          > plate, and -6 for magical half-plate.
        • mocha@mcs.net
          Okay - this is definitely a bug. The Magic being in the TYPE string instead of Armor.Heavy is throwing off Skill in its attempt to determine if you re
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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            Okay - this is definitely a bug. The Magic being in the TYPE string
            instead of Armor.Heavy is throwing off Skill in its attempt to
            determine if you're proficient in it which is why you're getting the
            extra -4 non-proficiency penalty thrown in. This is fixed for the
            next release (fixed so that the Magic can remain first - the only
            order that's important is the Heavy must come immediately after Armor)

            -Bryan

            --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
            > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
            > > Could you upload your character's pcg file to the Character PCG File
            > > folder here at the yahoo group so I can take a look at it?
            > >
            > > -Bryan
            >
            > It's done... I put it in the Character PCG files, called "Tomas
            > Norlander.pcg". The description points it out too...
          • mocha@mcs.net
            Yup - same issue. Fixed with next release. -Bryan
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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              Yup - same issue. Fixed with next release.

              -Bryan

              --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
              > Bryan,
              > You're not going to like this. Similar, if not same issue.
              > I have a Drow Bard/Ranger/Harper Scout (6/3/1) with assorted weapons,
              > including sword (+1 long and +1 short), daggers (masterwork), and a
              > +1 mighty composite longbow.
              > All weapons are having the armor check penalty applied even though
              > this should not be the case. Not sure what the situation is here.
              > I'll download the pcg file for this character so you can take a look
              > at it as well.
              >
              > -Robert
              > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
              > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
              > > > The order of the TYPE: string shouldn't matter. To clarify (I
              > looked
              > > > it up to be sure) some skills *always* apply the armor check
              > > penalty.
              > > > The only one which applies the armor check penality if you're
              > *not*
              > > > proficient with the armor worn is Ride. So PCGen is behaving
              > > > correctly in my understanding of the rules (read PHB page 104
              > about
              > > > the Armor Check Penalty description).
              > > >
              > > > -Bryan
              > >
              > > Forgive me if I'm wrong, but as a Paladin, I am proficient in ALL
              > > armors, and therefore, no penalty for Armor should be applied to my
              > > ride skill. Yet PCGen applies this penalty, at -3 for regular half-
              > > plate, and -6 for magical half-plate.
            • Chris
              I really hate to say this, but... With the release of v2.03, I m afraid nothing has changed, other than instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 30, 2001
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                I really hate to say this, but...

                With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other than
                instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm still
                receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.

                As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                armors proficiently.

                After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in the
                line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks, though
                the -3 was still there for Ride checks.

                My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these are
                bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
              • mocha@mcs.net
                ... I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to those skills - proficiency doesn t matter. The only skill where proficiency matters is
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I really hate to say this, but...
                  >
                  > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other than
                  > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm still
                  > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                  >
                  > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                  > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                  > armors proficiently.

                  I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to those
                  skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where proficiency
                  matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                  will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use the
                  armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).

                  I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                  skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and make a
                  quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                  correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                  your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.

                  -Bryan


                  >
                  > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in the
                  > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks, though
                  > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                  >
                  > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these are
                  > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                • Chris
                  Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the skills mentioned for
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                    Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
                    to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                    skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                    section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                    Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                    dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                    where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                    Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                    penalty.

                    Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out please!


                    > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                    those
                    > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                    proficiency
                    > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                    > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
                    the
                    > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                    >
                    > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                    > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                    make a
                    > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                    > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                    > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                    >
                    > -Bryan
                  • Lonestar
                    C Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply C to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the C skills
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                      C> Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
                      C> to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                      C> skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                      C> section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                      C> Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                      C> dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                      C> where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                      C> Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                      C> penalty.

                      C> Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out please!

                      Armor check penalties only apply to movement-based skills (this
                      includes riding) when you're not proficient with the armor you're
                      using. PHB p104

                      Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
                    • mocha@mcs.net
                      Maybe we need the sage on this, but, to quote the PHB 104 in the Armor Check Penalty section... Anything heavier than ;eather hurts your ability to use some
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                        Maybe we need the sage on this, but, to quote the PHB 104 in the Armor
                        Check Penalty section...
                        "Anything heavier than ;eather hurts your ability to use some of your
                        skills. Some characters don't much care, but others do. The barbarian,
                        in particular, faces a trade-off between heavier armor and better
                        skill checks, Skills: The armor check penalty number is the armor
                        check penalty you apply to certain skill checks. (Notice no mention of
                        proficiency : merton_monk). If you're wearing any armor heavier than
                        leather, you can't climb, sneak or tumble as well as you would if you
                        weren't wearing such heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance,
                        Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and
                        Tumble checks. Swim checks face a similar penalty based on the weight
                        of the gear you are carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                        in PCGen : merton_monk). Shields: If you are wearing armor and using
                        a shield, both armor check penalties apply. Nonproficient with Armor
                        Worn: If you wear armor with which you are not proficient, you suffer
                        the armor's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill rolls
                        that involve moving, including Ride (I take this to mean in addition
                        to the skills previously mentioned, and any other newly creates Skills
                        people add that generally involve moving - which are most of your Dex
                        and Str based skills : merton_monk)

                        So that's my interpretation, and I'll stick with it unless someone
                        (and I mean a really good argument or a Sage) can convince me otherwise.

                        -Bryan (merton_monk)

                        --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                        > C> Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties apply
                        > C> to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                        > C> skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                        > C> section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                        > C> Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                        > C> dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                        > C> where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                        > C> Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                        > C> penalty.
                        >
                        > C> Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
                        please!
                        >
                        > Armor check penalties only apply to movement-based skills (this
                        > includes riding) when you're not proficient with the armor you're
                        > using. PHB p104
                        >
                        > Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@l...
                      • Mark Hulsman
                        One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply, currently its hard coded (or I
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                          One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to
                          skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply,
                          currently its hard coded (or I just can't find where it is in the lst
                          files). It would be a lot better for new skills to put that in with
                          the skill entry so that if someone inputs a skill that it applies to,
                          they don't have to change the code.

                          > Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties
                          apply
                          > to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                          > skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                          > section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                          > Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                          > dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                          > where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                          > Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                          > penalty.
                          >
                          > Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
                          please!
                          >
                          >
                          > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                          > those
                          > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                          > proficiency
                          > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so
                          you
                          > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                          use
                          > the
                          > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                          > >
                          > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor
                          on
                          > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                          > make a
                          > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                          > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                          believe
                          > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                          > >
                          > > -Bryan
                        • Chris
                          ... sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren t wearing such heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                            > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                            sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                            heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                            Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                            checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                            carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                            in PCGen : merton_monk).

                            So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                            Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....

                            > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                            not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                            rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                            take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                            any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                            moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                            merton_monk)

                            Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                            skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                            Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                            penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                            included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                            the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                            not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                            other skills are.

                            I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                            under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                            wrong before...

                            - Chris
                          • mocha@mcs.net
                            In the Skill lst files you ll see ACHECK:Y for skills where the armor check always applies, ACHECK:P for skills where it only applies in non-proficient armor
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                              In the Skill lst files you'll see ACHECK:Y for skills where the armor
                              check always applies, ACHECK:P for skills where it only applies in
                              non-proficient armor (like Ride). The default is ACHECK:N - which
                              means no armor check penalty.

                              -Bryan


                              --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                              > One thing I just thought of, maybe we should add one more thing to
                              > skills lst files. Wether or not armor check penalties apply,
                              > currently its hard coded (or I just can't find where it is in the lst
                              > files). It would be a lot better for new skills to put that in with
                              > the skill entry so that if someone inputs a skill that it applies to,
                              > they don't have to change the code.
                              >
                              > > Could you point me to the rule that says Armor check penalties
                              > apply
                              > > to the Ride skill? In the equipment section, Ride is not one of the
                              > > skills mentioned for Armor Check penalties. In the encumberance
                              > > section, it refers to the the same skills as mentioned for Armor
                              > > Check penalties, and again, does not mention Ride. My DM and I
                              > > dissected the book from cover to cover and could find no mention of
                              > > where a character proficient in armor has a penalty applied to the
                              > > Ride skill. Only where the character is non-proficient is there a
                              > > penalty.
                              > >
                              > > Has this been errataed? Are we missing something? Help me out
                              > please!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                              > > those
                              > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                              > > proficiency
                              > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so
                              > you
                              > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                              > use
                              > > the
                              > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                              > > >
                              > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor
                              > on
                              > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                              > > make a
                              > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                              > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                              > believe
                              > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                              > > >
                              > > > -Bryan
                            • mocha@mcs.net
                              ... PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be applying a -3 since
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                > > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                                > sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                                > heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                                > Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                                > checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                                > carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                                > in PCGen : merton_monk).
                                >
                                > So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                                > Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....
                                >
                                > > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                                > not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                                > rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                                > take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                                > any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                                > moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                                > merton_monk)
                                >
                                > Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                                > skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                                > Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                                > penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                                > included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                                > the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                                > not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                                > other skills are.
                                >
                                > I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                                > under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                                > wrong before...

                                PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                                for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                                applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                                occuring with v2.0.3?

                                -Bryan

                                >
                                > - Chris
                              • mocha@mcs.net
                                In my comments, I was referring to just the Ride skill - you re proficient with half-plate, so no armor check penalty. The armor check penalty would still
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                  In my comments, I was referring to just the Ride skill - you're
                                  proficient with half-plate, so no armor check penalty. The armor
                                  check penalty would still apply to Balance, et. al.

                                  -Bryan

                                  --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                  > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                  > > > If you're wearing any armor heavier than leather, you can't climb,
                                  > > sneak or tumble as well as you would if you weren't wearing such
                                  > > heavy armor. This penalty applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist,
                                  > > Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pockets and Tumble checks. Swim
                                  > > checks face a similar penalty based on the weight of the gear you are
                                  > > carrying and wearing. (this tidbit isn't handled
                                  > > in PCGen : merton_monk).
                                  > >
                                  > > So, in this rule, the ride skill isn't mentioned as included with an
                                  > > Armor's check penalty... However, in the following....
                                  > >
                                  > > > Nonproficient with Armor Worn: If you wear armor with which you are
                                  > > not proficient, you suffer the armor's armor check penalty on attack
                                  > > rolls and on all skill rolls that involve moving, including Ride (I
                                  > > take this to mean in addition to the skills previously mentioned, and
                                  > > any other newly creates Skills people add that generally involve
                                  > > moving - which are most of your Dex and Str based skills :
                                  > > merton_monk)
                                  > >
                                  > > Which says to me, the only time you receive a penalty to the Ride
                                  > > skill if you are NOT PROFICIENT in the armor. But, like I said, a
                                  > > Paladin is proficient in all forms of armor. Therefore the check
                                  > > penalty is applied to those skills listed, but Ride is no longer
                                  > > included, and therefore no longer penalized. Using a poor example, in
                                  > > the Character Generator Demo released with the PHB, the ride skill is
                                  > > not penalized when wearing armor you're proficient with, but the
                                  > > other skills are.
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, here, but it's really getting
                                  > > under my skin. The rule seems pretty clear to me, but I have been
                                  > > wrong before...
                                  >
                                  > PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                                  > for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                                  > applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                                  > occuring with v2.0.3?
                                  >
                                  > -Bryan
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > - Chris
                                • Robert Ward
                                  Bryan, Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo in the new version (2.0.3.) I m still having the same situation as well. My
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                    Bryan,
                                    Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo
                                    in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                                    well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                                    light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                                    penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?

                                    -Robert

                                    --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                    > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I really hate to say this, but...
                                    > >
                                    > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other
                                    than
                                    > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                                    still
                                    > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                                    > >
                                    > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                                    > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                                    > > armors proficiently.
                                    >
                                    > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                                    those
                                    > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                                    proficiency
                                    > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                                    > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
                                    the
                                    > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                                    >
                                    > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                                    > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                                    make a
                                    > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                                    > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                                    > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                                    >
                                    > -Bryan
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in
                                    the
                                    > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                                    though
                                    > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                                    > >
                                    > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these
                                    are
                                    > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                                  • mocha@mcs.net
                                    The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow chainmail. The -2 you re seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a longsword equipped in both
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                      The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                                      chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                                      longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty due
                                      to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing something?

                                      -Bryan

                                      --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                                      > Bryan,
                                      > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete redo
                                      > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                                      > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                                      > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                                      > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                                      >
                                      > -Robert
                                      >
                                      > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                      > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed, other
                                      > than
                                      > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                                      > still
                                      > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or Ride
                                      > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear all
                                      > > > armors proficiently.
                                      > >
                                      > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                                      > those
                                      > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                                      > proficiency
                                      > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load, so you
                                      > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which use
                                      > the
                                      > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                                      > >
                                      > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic armor on
                                      > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                                      > make a
                                      > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where this
                                      > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do believe
                                      > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                                      > >
                                      > > -Bryan
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier in
                                      > the
                                      > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                                      > though
                                      > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but these
                                      > are
                                      > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                                    • Robert Ward
                                      Ok, I ll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon swords. But it s still not showing right. I ll replace the earlier copy with my current one
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                        Ok, I'll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon
                                        swords. But it's still not showing right. I'll replace the earlier
                                        copy with my current one which does have the armor equipped. All to
                                        hits are -2 (the AC Check penalty) from what I figured it should be.
                                        And if I unequip the armor then the to hit rolls go up. If you want
                                        me to, I can even upload a unequipped armor pcg file to show you the
                                        difference in the two, just let me know. Hopefully I'm not being a
                                        pain, I'm honestly not trying to be one. :)

                                        -Robert

                                        --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                        > The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                                        > chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                                        > longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty
                                        due
                                        > to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing
                                        something?
                                        >
                                        > -Bryan
                                        >
                                        > --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                                        > > Bryan,
                                        > > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete
                                        redo
                                        > > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                                        > > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                                        > > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                                        > > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                                        > >
                                        > > -Robert
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                        > > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed,
                                        other
                                        > > than
                                        > > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                                        > > still
                                        > > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or
                                        Ride
                                        > > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear
                                        all
                                        > > > > armors proficiently.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                                        > > those
                                        > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                                        > > proficiency
                                        > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load,
                                        so you
                                        > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                                        use
                                        > > the
                                        > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic
                                        armor on
                                        > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                                        > > make a
                                        > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where
                                        this
                                        > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                                        believe
                                        > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > -Bryan
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier
                                        in
                                        > > the
                                        > > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                                        > > though
                                        > > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but
                                        these
                                        > > are
                                        > > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                                      • mocha@mcs.net
                                        You re not being a pain - you ve been quite helpful! It s getting late so I ll take a look at it tomorrow. -Bryan
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                          You're not being a pain - you've been quite helpful! It's getting
                                          late so I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

                                          -Bryan

                                          --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                                          > Ok, I'll give you this on the non-equipped armor, and 2 weapon
                                          > swords. But it's still not showing right. I'll replace the earlier
                                          > copy with my current one which does have the armor equipped. All to
                                          > hits are -2 (the AC Check penalty) from what I figured it should be.
                                          > And if I unequip the armor then the to hit rolls go up. If you want
                                          > me to, I can even upload a unequipped armor pcg file to show you the
                                          > difference in the two, just let me know. Hopefully I'm not being a
                                          > pain, I'm honestly not trying to be one. :)
                                          >
                                          > -Robert
                                          >
                                          > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                          > > The pcg file you uploaded had you not equipped with the Drow
                                          > > chainmail. The -2 you're seeing is from using 2 weapons (you have a
                                          > > longsword equipped in both hands), not the -2 armor check penalty
                                          > due
                                          > > to the armor (which isn't even equipped). Or am I missing
                                          > something?
                                          > >
                                          > > -Bryan
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Robert Ward" <rward30@h...> wrote:
                                          > > > Bryan,
                                          > > > Just checked my character (same as before, and even a complete
                                          > redo
                                          > > > in the new version (2.0.3.) I'm still having the same situation as
                                          > > > well. My character, just in case you don't remember is running a
                                          > > > light load, so no encumbrance, but is still suffering the AC check
                                          > > > penalty on to hit rolls. Any suggestions?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > -Robert
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
                                          > > > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Chris" <kiltedfrog@h...> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I really hate to say this, but...
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > With the release of v2.03, I'm afraid nothing has changed,
                                          > other
                                          > > > than
                                          > > > > > instead of a -6 penalty to my Ride skill, I receive a -3. I'm
                                          > > > still
                                          > > > > > receiving a -6 penalty to all of my attacks as well.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > As a paladin, I should receive no penalties to my attacks or
                                          > Ride
                                          > > > > > skill for not being proficient in armor. A Paladin can wear
                                          > all
                                          > > > > > armors proficiently.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I believe that the Armor Check penalties are *always* applied to
                                          > > > those
                                          > > > > skills - proficiency doesn't matter. The only skill where
                                          > > > proficiency
                                          > > > > matters is the Ride skill. Your character has a Medium load,
                                          > so you
                                          > > > > will have some minuses for that (you have a -3 to skills which
                                          > use
                                          > > > the
                                          > > > > armor penalty for a medium load and to Ride).
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I just checked, and I did correct the penalty for the Magic
                                          > armor on
                                          > > > > skill checks, but not on attack rolls. I will correct that and
                                          > > > make a
                                          > > > > quick check to make sure there aren't any other places where
                                          > this
                                          > > > > correction needs to be made. Sorry about missing that! I do
                                          > believe
                                          > > > > your skill checks are correct, but not your attack rolls.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > -Bryan
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > After altering the .lst file, removing the "magic" identifier
                                          > in
                                          > > > the
                                          > > > > > line for Half Plate +1 fixed the penalties applied to attacks,
                                          > > > though
                                          > > > > > the -3 was still there for Ride checks.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > My only hope is I'm not getting on anyone's case here, but
                                          > these
                                          > > > are
                                          > > > > > bugs that I think still need to be addressed.
                                        • Chris
                                          ... Ah, so it s an encumberance issue. Ok, now according to page 141 of the PHB, the Ride skill is not affected by encumberance either. The penalties listed
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 1, 2001
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                                            > PCGen should not be applying an armor check penalty to your paladin
                                            > for your half-plate armor (since you are proficient). It should be
                                            > applying a -3 since you have a medium load. Is this not what's
                                            > occuring with v2.0.3?
                                            >
                                            > -Bryan

                                            Ah, so it's an encumberance issue. Ok, now according to page 141 of
                                            the PHB, the Ride skill is not affected by encumberance either. The
                                            penalties listed are: maximum Dex bonus to AC, check penalties (which
                                            works as an armor check penalty), speed, and run factor.

                                            The argument would be if ride should be incorporated in there or not.
                                            The rule references armor check penalties, and Ride is not included
                                            with those skills. It doesn't reference the penalties for non-
                                            proficiency, so this is why I believe Ride should not be penalized
                                            for encumberance.

                                            - Chris
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