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[BUG ] & [FREQ] OS, AC tokens for armor/shield messed up

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    The AC breakdown has a problem with magic shields, currently you can get: (1) the total armor bonus (BONUS.COMBAT.ARMOR), (2) the armor bonus without shield
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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      The AC breakdown has a problem with magic shields, currently you can get:

      (1) the total armor bonus (BONUS.COMBAT.ARMOR),
      (2) the armor bonus without shield (BONUS.COMBAT.ARMOR.!TYPE=Shield),
      (3) the shield bonus (BONUS.COMBAT.!TYPE=Shield)

      If either shield or armor have an enhancement bonus, both get
      calculated into (1) and (2) which of course is wrong. The armor
      enhancement bonus shoud be calculated into (1) and (2), and the shield
      enhancement bonus shoud be calculated into (1) and (3).

      It would really be great to be able to break this into detailed
      categories like this, along with an example for a character with a +2
      full plate and +1 lagre shield:

      (1) total armor and shield bonus [+13]

      (2) total armor bonus (without shield) [+10]
      (3) total shield bonus [ +3]

      (4) non-magical armor and shield bonus [+10]
      (5) total magical bonus [ +3]

      (6) non-magical armor bonus [ +8]
      (7) non-magical shield bonus [ +2]
      (8) magical armor bonus [ +2]
      (9) magical shield bonus [ +1]

      Would it be possible to implement this down to this detail?

      Regards,
      Stefan.
    • frugal@purplewombat.co.uk
      ... You can certainly break it down like this (taken from base.xml): |BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOTAL|
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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        <quote who="Stefan Radermacher">
        > (1) total armor and shield bonus [+13]
        >
        > (2) total armor bonus (without shield) [+10]
        > (3) total shield bonus [ +3]
        >
        > (4) non-magical armor and shield bonus [+10]
        > (5) total magical bonus [ +3]
        >
        > (6) non-magical armor bonus [ +8]
        > (7) non-magical shield bonus [ +2]
        > (8) magical armor bonus [ +2]
        > (9) magical shield bonus [ +1]
        >
        > Would it be possible to implement this down to this detail?

        You can certainly break it down like this (taken from base.xml):

        <armor_class>
        <total>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOTAL|</total>
        <listing>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LISTING|</listing>
        <flat>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOTAL.!Ability.PRESTAT:1,DEX=10.!PRESA:1,Uncanny
        Dodge.MIN=0|</flat>
        <touch>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOTAL.!Armor.!NaturalArmor.!EQUIPMENT|</touch>
        <base>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.BASE|</base>
        <armor_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.Armor.!TYPE=Shield|</armor_bonus>
        <shield_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TYPE=Shield|</shield_bonus>
        <stat_mod>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.Ability|</stat_mod>
        <size_mod>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIZE|</size_mod>
        <natural>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.NaturalArmor|</natural>
        <class_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE|</class_bonus>
        <equipment_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT|</equipment_bonus>
        <competence_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE|</competence_bonus>
        <defense_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE|</defense_bonus>
        <deflection_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFLECTION|</deflection_bonus>
        <dodge_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE|</dodge_bonus>
        <enhancement_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT|</enhancement_bonus>
        <insight_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT|</insight_bonus>
        <luck_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK|</luck_bonus>
        <monk_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.MONK|</monk_bonus>
        <sidestep_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP|</sidestep_bonus>
        <tar_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR|</tar_bonus>
        <toughness_bonus>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS|</toughness_bonus>
        <misc>|BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOTAL.!BASE.!Armor.!Ability.!SIZE.!NaturalArmor.!CLASSDEFENSE.!EQUIPMENT.!COMPETENCE.!DEFENSE.!DEFLECTION.!DODGE.!ENHANCEMENT.!INSIGHT.!LUCK.!MONK.!SIDESTEP.!TAR.!TOUGHNESS|</misc>
        <miss_chance/>
        <max_dex>|MAXDEX|</max_dex>
        <spell_failure>|SPELLFAILURE|</spell_failure>
        <check_penalty>|ACCHECK|</check_penalty>
        <spell_resistance>|SR|</spell_resistance>
        </armor_class>


        --
        regards,
        Frugal
        -OS Tamarin
      • frugal@purplewombat.co.uk
        ... The problem is that armour is added as : COMBAT|AC|x|TYPE=Armor.REPLACE Shields are added as
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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          <quote who="Stefan Radermacher">
          > The AC breakdown has a problem with magic shields, currently you can get:
          >
          > (1) the total armor bonus (BONUS.COMBAT.ARMOR),
          > (2) the armor bonus without shield (BONUS.COMBAT.ARMOR.!TYPE=Shield),
          > (3) the shield bonus (BONUS.COMBAT.!TYPE=Shield)
          >
          > If either shield or armor have an enhancement bonus, both get
          > calculated into (1) and (2) which of course is wrong. The armor
          > enhancement bonus shoud be calculated into (1) and (2), and the shield
          > enhancement bonus shoud be calculated into (1) and (3).

          The problem is that armour is added as :
          COMBAT|AC|x|TYPE=Armor.REPLACE
          Shields are added as
          COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=Armor.REPLACE
          and the bonuses to both are added as:
          COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=Armor.REPLACE

          --
          regards,
          Frugal
          -OS Tamarin
        • Stefan Radermacher
          ... Interesting, what kind of bonuses can be there for AC. :-) Some of these seem like temporary/sitational bonuses one would not normally have on the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
            > You can certainly break it down like this (taken from base.xml):

            Interesting, what kind of bonuses can be there for AC. :-)

            Some of these seem like temporary/sitational bonuses one would not
            normally have on the character sheet. How are they granted in PCGen?

            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK

            And what are these?

            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
            > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS

            Regards,
            Stefan.
          • frugal@purplewombat.co.uk
            ... These are quite often generated by equipment or class special abilities. Personally I have a whole selection opf templates
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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              <quote who="Stefan Radermacher">
              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
              >> You can certainly break it down like this (taken from base.xml):
              >
              > Interesting, what kind of bonuses can be there for AC. :-)
              >
              > Some of these seem like temporary/sitational bonuses one would not
              > normally have on the character sheet. How are they granted in PCGen?
              >
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK

              These are quite often generated by equipment or class special abilities.
              Personally I have a whole selection opf templates that given the various
              bonuses from spells and bard songs that I just apply or not depending on
              the occasion ;O)

              > And what are these?
              >
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
              >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS

              I have no idea for some of them, CLASSDEFENSE comes from Modern. I
              basically grep'd the whole of the data tree for BONUS.COMBAT.AC and these
              are all of the different armour bonus types we currently have in PCGen.

              --
              regards,
              Frugal
              -OS Tamarin
            • Stefan Radermacher
              ... Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates? Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character for all kinds of
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
                > Personally I have a whole selection opf templates that given the
                > various bonuses from spells and bard songs that I just apply or not
                > depending on the occasion ;O)

                Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates?

                Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character
                for all kinds of situations? I imagine this might quickly get out of
                hand - one might need up to n! prepared sheets for n templates... :-)

                Or do you print them when the situation arises, which, I think, might
                be dispuptive to play.

                I love the features of templates (and also the new temporary
                bonuses), but I keep wondering how to make the most practical use of
                them without printing lots of sheets for all kinds of situations.

                Probably everyone has their own preferences on how to do that, why not
                share some ideas here?

                Regards,
                Stefan.
              • krazhit
                ... Search through the archives here and at the listfile group for PREAPPLY, that should answer your question to some extent.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Radermacher" <stefan@z...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
                  > Some of these seem like temporary/sitational bonuses one would not
                  > normally have on the character sheet. How are they granted in PCGen?

                  Search through the archives here and at the listfile group for
                  PREAPPLY, that should answer your question to some extent.

                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK

                  > And what are these?
                  >
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
                  > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Stefan.
                • Barak
                  ... Competence, Dodge, Insight, Luck, Enhancement, Toughness are all TYPEs of bonus, used to ensure proper stacking (or not). Anything that is situational is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Stefan Radermacher [mailto:stefan@...]

                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
                    > Interesting, what kind of bonuses can be there for AC. :-)
                    >
                    > Some of these seem like temporary/sitational bonuses one
                    > would not normally have on the character sheet. How are they
                    > granted in PCGen?
                    >
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK
                    >
                    > And what are these?
                    >
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
                    > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS

                    Competence, Dodge, Insight, Luck, Enhancement, Toughness are all TYPEs
                    of bonus, used to ensure proper stacking (or not). Anything that is
                    situational is either not included or included on the temp. bonus tab.

                    Equipment is obvious. :)

                    Classdefense was instituted for Modern.

                    I have no idea what Tar or Sidestep are for. :p

                    Barak
                  • Brass Tilde
                    ... Well, shouldn t being in a Tape ARchive count for a little protection?
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                      > > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
                      > > > BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS
                      >
                      > I have no idea what Tar or Sidestep are for. :p

                      Well, shouldn't being in a Tape ARchive count for a little protection?
                    • Stefan Radermacher
                      ... Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates? Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character for all kinds of
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
                        > Personally I have a whole selection opf templates that given the
                        > various bonuses from spells and bard songs that I just apply or not
                        > depending on the occasion ;O)

                        Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates?

                        Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character
                        for all kinds of situations? I imagine this might quickly get out of
                        hand - one might need up to n! prepared sheets for n templates... :-)

                        Or do you print them when the situation arises, which, I think, might
                        be dispuptive to play.

                        I love the features of templates (and also the new temporary
                        bonuses), but I keep wondering how to make the most practical use of
                        them without printing lots of sheets for all kinds of situations.

                        Probably everyone has their own preferences on how to do that, why not
                        share some ideas here?

                        Regards,
                        Stefan.
                      • Steven Gilroy
                        I think it s more for those that have a laptop at the game table or actually play online games. I have not been able to find a practicle use for at the table
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                          I think it's more for those that have a laptop at the game table or
                          actually play online games. I have not been able to find a practicle
                          use for at the table play w/o a laptop. (I just can't afford to print
                          out 6 copies of each character for each level and when he/she buys
                          something new or sells something)

                          Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, frugal@p... wrote:
                          >
                          >>Personally I have a whole selection opf templates that given the
                          >>various bonuses from spells and bard songs that I just apply or not
                          >>depending on the occasion ;O)
                          >
                          >
                          > Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates?
                          >
                          > Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character
                          > for all kinds of situations? I imagine this might quickly get out of
                          > hand - one might need up to n! prepared sheets for n templates... :-)
                          >
                          > Or do you print them when the situation arises, which, I think, might
                          > be dispuptive to play.
                          >
                          > I love the features of templates (and also the new temporary
                          > bonuses), but I keep wondering how to make the most practical use of
                          > them without printing lots of sheets for all kinds of situations.
                          >
                          > Probably everyone has their own preferences on how to do that, why not
                          > share some ideas here?
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Stefan.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > PCGen's FAQ: http://pedertest.officeline.no/PCGen
                          > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Steven Gilroy
                          PCGen OS Lemur
                          "In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"
                        • frugal@purplewombat.co.uk
                          ... I tend to print off 2 versions of the character sheet: One as a basic one, and one in a different colour with all of the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                            <quote who="Stefan Radermacher">
                            > Interesting. I wonder, how do you work with your templates?
                            >
                            > Do you keep around lots of different printed sheets for your character
                            > for all kinds of situations? I imagine this might quickly get out of
                            > hand - one might need up to n! prepared sheets for n templates... :-)
                            >
                            > Or do you print them when the situation arises, which, I think, might
                            > be dispuptive to play.

                            I tend to print off 2 versions of the character sheet: One as a basic one,
                            and one in a different colour with all of the templates that represent the
                            spells I always have cast on me during the day (Greater Magic Fang, Mage
                            Armour, Magic Tattoo etc). If I know that the session will only last a few
                            hours of game time then I also roll the Owls wisdom and Cats grace and add
                            them before hand.

                            If the DM would allow laptops at the game then I would just apply the
                            templates as an when needed and re-export the character. (for bards songs,
                            and other temporary bonuses and penalties).

                            --
                            regards,
                            Frugal
                            -OS Tamarin
                          • krazhit
                            Yeah baby, a $4000 character sheet is the way to go in the 21st century. (I´ve seen at most 4 high end ThinkPads on my gaming table:)
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                              Yeah baby, a $4000 character sheet is the way to go in the 21st
                              century.
                              (I´ve seen at most 4 high end ThinkPads on my gaming table:)

                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gilroy <sgilroy2@w...> wrote:
                              > I think it's more for those that have a laptop at the game table or
                              > actually play online games.
                            • Stefan Radermacher
                              Oops, sorry for posting twice. Regards, Stefan.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                                Oops, sorry for posting twice.

                                Regards,
                                Stefan.
                              • Tir Gwaith
                                Because it isn t an ehancement that way, it actually modifies the Armor type AC, and there are stacking issues. When we tried it with Enhancments it doesn t
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                                  Because it isn't an ehancement that way, it actually modifies the Armor type AC, and there are stacking issues. When we tried it with Enhancments it doesn't work....

                                  For Example: Bracers of Armor grant an Armor bonus that doesn't stack with normal armors or shields or any enhancements on those items. If we broke them down to Armor and ArmorEhancement, the Bracers of Armor won't work correctly. It would change the Armor, but it could not remove any ArmorEhancement bonuses out there..

                                  The reason for this is that it isn't an Armor Enhancement bonus, it is an ehancement to the Armor Type bonus. (I know, some people will see me as splitting hairs.)

                                  And this will be fixed soon (well, partly), but not the way anyone has mentioned. Sorry, but I can not say more on the subject. Enjoy the tease. :p

                                  And for the record, XML will not fix every problem out there. It is merely a different data format that will allow us to, eventually, beable to convey more information. In this case, XML would do us no good, since it is a stacking issue. Maybe it will

                                  Tir Gwaith
                                  PCGen Data SB and BoD

                                  >> Let me guess:
                                  >>
                                  >> COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=Armor.REPLACE
                                  >> COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=ArmorEnhancement.REPLACE
                                  >> COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=Shield.REPLACE
                                  >> COMBAT|AC|4|TYPE=ShieldEnhancement.REPLACE
                                  >
                                  >That looks good and would certainly clean up the problem I mentioned.
                                  >
                                  >> (As a side note: Why do we not already do it this way ?)
                                  >
                                  >I wonder, too. :-)
                                  >
                                  >Regards,
                                  >Stefan.
                                • Michael Tucker
                                  On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 07:37 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote: [snip] ... Tir, whatever you re working on, please also remember the following AC modifiers: *
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 3, 2003
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                                    On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 07:37 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    [snip]
                                    >
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.COMPETENCE
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DEFENSE
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.DODGE
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.INSIGHT
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LUCK
                                    >
                                    > And what are these?
                                    >
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.CLASSDEFENSE
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.EQUIPMENT
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.ENHANCEMENT
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.SIDESTEP
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TAR
                                    >> BONUS.COMBAT.AC.TOUGHNESS
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Stefan.
                                    >

                                    Tir, whatever you're working on, please also remember the following AC
                                    modifiers:
                                    * HASTE (a +4 bonus to AC)
                                    * DEFLECTION
                                    * NATURAL ARMOR
                                    * COVER (e.g., from the Shield spell, which conveys a +7 COVER bonus to
                                    AC)

                                    Java Kensai / Michael
                                    (delurking, trying to be helpful)
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