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Re: [pcgen] Re: [a little ot] encounter ratings

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  • Vance
    If you use a little program calle TableSmith by Bruce Gulke http://www.mythosa.net/ I use a table I created to do all my calculations for me (by the book).
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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      If you use a little program calle TableSmith by Bruce Gulke
      http://www.mythosa.net/
      I use a table I created to do all my calculations for me (by the book).
      Anyone interested in a copy of this table contact me off-list.

      Vance
      clubvance@...


      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Emily Smirle <smirle4498@r...> wrote:
      > Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.
      >
      > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed
      encounter?
    • Emily Smirle
      Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc. How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter? Example: 4 generic
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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        Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.

        How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter?

        Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an Ogre
        NPC (3rd level barbarian)

        A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3, and the ogre thug is CR 5.

        officially when you double the number of critters you add two to the EL,
        which makes two orcs an EL 2.5 encounter and four orcs EL 4.5? that
        makes no sense, so I'm assuming I'm wrong.

        What's the total encounter level of this encounter?
        --
        "Is he an evil outsider?"
        "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..."
      • Brass Tilde
        ... There are two main rules: 1. Two creatures of the same CR equal an encounter level of two higher than that CR. (CR1 + CR1 = EL3) 2. Two creatures, one
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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          > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter?

          There are two main rules:
          1. Two creatures of the same CR equal an encounter level of two higher than
          that CR. (CR1 + CR1 = EL3)
          2. Two creatures, one with a CR two higher than the other, make an EL of
          one higher than the highest CR. (CR1 + CR3 = EL4)

          To keep it as simple as possible, break the cretures or groups of creatures,
          down into whatever groups make the math easiest. You're example is
          relatively simple because the different groups of creatures make the math
          easy.

          > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an Ogre
          > NPC (3rd level barbarian)

          > A generic orc is CR .5,

          According to the rules, combine creatures with a CR less than 1 to get 1,
          therefore four CR 1/2 Orcs are equivalient to two CR 1 creatures.

          Again, according to the rules, two creatures of the same CR equal an EL two
          above that CR, so two CR 1 = EL 3.

          > the orc captain is CR 3,

          Applying the same rule, the EL 3 from the four orcs combines with the CR 3
          of the Orc Capt to yield an EL 5.

          > and the ogre thug is CR 5.

          And the same rule again gives 7.

          Sometimes they don't work out that nicely, you just have to remember that
          you're free to move the groups around to give you situations where you can
          use the two main rules. If there are any situations where you can't force
          it into one of the two rules, try to arrange it so that situation comes out
          as the last step. Then arbitrarily make a decision.

          Brass
        • Soul Harvest
          ... encounter? I ripped this off someone who posted on the wizards.com website. It ... Determining EL Single creature: EL = CR. Example, one ogre (CR 2) is EL
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Emily Smirle <smirle4498@r...> wrote:
            > Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.
            >
            > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed
            encounter?

            I ripped this off someone who posted on the wizards.com website. It
            seems to be a very clear explanation:
            ------------------------------------
            Determining EL
            Single creature:
            EL = CR. Example, one ogre (CR 2) is EL 2.

            Multiple creatures:
            When dealing with CRs of 2 or below: Add CRs together. Example, 2
            orcs (CR 1/2) are EL 1. 2 1st level paladins (CR 1) are EL 2 and 3
            kobolds (CR 1/6) are EL 1/2.

            When dealing with CRs of 2 or more: doubling the number of
            challenges increases the EL by +2. Example, 2 ogres (CR 2) are EL 4,
            4 ogres are EL 6, 8 ogres are EL 8.
          • Paul W. King
            ... Don t know if its official, or not, but here s how my groups do it. If the party defeats the encounter fully, award XP by adding what the party would get
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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              > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an
              > Ogre NPC (3rd level barbarian)
              >
              > A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3, and the ogre thug
              > is CR 5.

              Don't know if its official, or not, but here's how my groups do it.

              If the party defeats the encounter fully, award XP by adding what the
              party would get by defeating a 2, 3 and 5 level encounter.

              Paul W. King
              OGL/PL SB and BoD
            • Phantom of Krankor
              ... Personally, I use this http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/downloads/Encounter_Calculator.htm ... There s some other thing about doubling the number of
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                > Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.
                > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter?

                Personally, I use this
                http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/downloads/Encounter_Calculator.htm


                > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an
                > Ogre NPC (3rd level barbarian)
                >
                > A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3, and the ogre thug is
                > CR 5.
                >
                > officially when you double the number of critters you add two to the
                > EL,
                > which makes two orcs an EL 2.5 encounter and four orcs EL 4.5? that
                > makes no sense, so I'm assuming I'm wrong.

                There's some other thing about doubling the number of creatures if
                the CR is less than 1. I can't remember it exactly, but it's in the
                DMG.

                > What's the total encounter level of this encounter?

                7. I could launch into a very long explanation, but the above link
                is usually correct.

                -Greg G


                =====
                --
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                http://rpn.homestead.com

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              • Keith Davies
                ... It doesn t really apply when the CR is less than one. ... I d probably put this one at: 4 * 0.5 = 2. 3 + 2 = 4.? 5 + 4.? = ~6.?-7 Generally, CR+CR = CR+2,
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                  On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:49:10AM -0500, Emily Smirle wrote:
                  > Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.
                  >
                  > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter?
                  >
                  > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an Ogre
                  > NPC (3rd level barbarian)
                  >
                  > A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3, and the ogre thug is
                  > CR 5.
                  >
                  > officially when you double the number of critters you add two to the
                  > EL, which makes two orcs an EL 2.5 encounter and four orcs EL 4.5?
                  > that makes no sense, so I'm assuming I'm wrong.

                  It doesn't really apply when the CR is less than one.

                  > What's the total encounter level of this encounter?

                  I'd probably put this one at:

                  4 * 0.5 = 2.
                  3 + 2 = 4.?
                  5 + 4.? = ~6.?-7

                  Generally, CR+CR = CR+2, CR+(CR-2) = CR+1. Four orcs is somewhere
                  around a CR 2 encounter; a CR 3 plus a CR 2 is somewhere between 4 and
                  5; add that to a CR 5 encounter and you're pretty close to CR 7.

                  I'd probably consider it closer to CR 6, though. At that point a
                  sixth-level party should be able to handle it without too much risk. A
                  brick will be able to stand up to the ogre unless it gets in a nice
                  critical or two with its great axe (you *were* going to give it a great
                  axe, I hope?), the normal orcs are laughable, and the orc captain isn't
                  particularly a threat.

                  Especially if the party starts far enough away and the baddies are
                  stupid enough (and they are...) to clump up well enough for the sorcerer
                  to pick them off.

                  So, I'd consider this no more than a CR 6 encounter, I think, unless you
                  do something to make it more interesting (such as making the encounter
                  happen in the dark, for instance). Darkness, the great leveler. Miss
                  chance, sweet, frustrating miss chance... and it makes ranged attacks
                  almost impossible.


                  Keith
                  --
                  Keith Davies
                  keith.davies@...

                  PCGen: <reaper/>, smartass
                  "You just can't argue with a moron. It's like handling Nuclear
                  waste. It's not good, it's not evil, but for Christ's sake, don't
                  get any on you!!" -- Chuck, PCGen mailing list
                • The Dustmonger
                  ... There s a rule no one has mentioned yet that says CRs less than 3 are added together until you start getting ELs higher than 3. 4 CR 1/2 orcs are EL 2,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                    --- Keith Davies <keith.davies@...> wrote:
                    > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:49:10AM -0500, Emily
                    > Smirle wrote:
                    > > Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a
                    > gift for math etc.
                    > >
                    > > How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a
                    > really mixed encounter?
                    > >
                    > > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level
                    > fighter) and an Ogre
                    > > NPC (3rd level barbarian)
                    > >
                    > > A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3,
                    > and the ogre thug is
                    > > CR 5.
                    > >
                    > > officially when you double the number of critters
                    > you add two to the
                    > > EL, which makes two orcs an EL 2.5 encounter and
                    > four orcs EL 4.5?
                    > > that makes no sense, so I'm assuming I'm wrong.
                    >
                    > It doesn't really apply when the CR is less than
                    > one.

                    There's a rule no one has mentioned yet that says CRs
                    less than 3 are added together until you start getting
                    ELs higher than 3. 4 CR 1/2 orcs are EL 2, and 8
                    would be EL 4. Three CR 1 Lizardfolk would be EL 3,
                    but 6 would be EL 5 (EL 3 + EL 3 = EL5).

                    Dusty

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                  • Emily Smirle
                    ... Bless you! A thousand times, bless you! It s in javascript! I can see the source, so I can see how he does it! Logical steps! Algorithms! Oh, bless you!
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                      Phantom of Krankor wrote:
                      >
                      >>Got a question for the Seething D20 Masses with a gift for math etc.
                      >>How do you calculate the Encounter Level of a really mixed encounter?
                      >
                      >
                      > Personally, I use this
                      > http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/downloads/Encounter_Calculator.htm

                      Bless you! A thousand times, bless you!

                      It's in javascript! I can see the source, so I can see how he does it!
                      Logical steps! Algorithms! Oh, bless you!

                      *does a little "Hail Greg" dance*

                      ...

                      Ahem. You know you've been a programmer too long when you have to use a
                      computer algorithm to judge encounter levels.
                      --
                      "Is he an evil outsider?"
                      "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..."
                    • Lee Dowd
                      ... ... Don t know if its official, or not, but here s how ... I belive that that is close to the way you are suppose to award experiance as oppose to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                        --- "Paul W. King" <kingpaul@...> wrote:
                        ...> Don't know if its official, or not, but here's
                        how
                        > my groups do it.
                        >
                        > If the party defeats the encounter fully, award XP
                        > by adding what the
                        > party would get by defeating a 2, 3 and 5 level
                        > encounter.
                        >
                        > Paul W. King
                        > OGL/PL SB and BoD

                        I belive that that is close to the way you are suppose
                        to award experiance as oppose to determine encounter
                        level. Officialy I don't believe you have to defeat
                        the encounter to get the experiance just encounter it.
                        The EL is a tool for GM's to use to determine how
                        much of a challenge a group encounter is. As such it
                        must be used carefully as the number and power of the
                        characters for instance can impact the real vs the
                        calculated EL.

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                      • matt+haffner
                        ... It *is* official. You shouldn t use EL on the XP rewards chart in the DMG. It s intended to be used only for CR and that implies that you do it for each
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. King" <kingpaul@e...> wrote:
                          > > Example: 4 generic orcs and an orc NPC (3rd level fighter) and an
                          > > Ogre NPC (3rd level barbarian)
                          > >
                          > > A generic orc is CR .5, the orc captain is CR 3, and the ogre thug
                          > > is CR 5.
                          >
                          > Don't know if its official, or not, but here's how my groups do it.
                          >
                          > If the party defeats the encounter fully, award XP by adding what the
                          > party would get by defeating a 2, 3 and 5 level encounter.

                          It *is* official. You shouldn't use EL on the XP rewards chart in the DMG. It's intended to be used only for CR and that implies that you do it for each challenge (monster, trap, etc.) in the encounter and add the results together. I

                          wrote a long-ish post on another board on why using EL alone breaks down (I can hunt it down if anyone's curious), but I think a short summary is that using EL breaks down quite badly if you have either low-level PCs or a good number of low-level monsters in the encounter with higher-level PCs.

                          Always use CR for awarding XP, not EL...

                          mh - ZansForCans
                        • Brass Tilde
                          ... Where is that rule? Do you have a book and page?
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                            > There's a rule no one has mentioned yet that says CRs
                            > less than 3 are added together until you start getting
                            > ELs higher than 3.

                            Where is that rule? Do you have a book and page?
                          • Brass Tilde
                            ... If that s the same one I was using last year, it uses a formula to calculate CR, which periodically came up with some different numbers than the table
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                              > > Personally, I use this
                              > > http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/downloads/Encounter_Calculator.htm
                              >
                              > Bless you! A thousand times, bless you!
                              >
                              > It's in javascript! I can see the source, so I can see how he does it!
                              > Logical steps! Algorithms! Oh, bless you!

                              If that's the same one I was using last year, it uses a formula to calculate
                              CR, which periodically came up with some different numbers than the table
                              lookup method from the DMG. Close, but not quite identical.

                              If you want, I've got a spreadsheet that calculates FR type XP (which I use
                              IMC) based on the tables in the DMG. It wouldn't be too hard to modify it
                              (or fool it) into doing average party level type XP.
                            • Phantom of Krankor
                              ... Ah. Err. Well. I just report the news, I don t make it. ... And it s easy to edit, too. I ve modified it to have more rows than come with it. Something
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                > Phantom of Krankor wrote:
                                > > Personally, I use this
                                > > http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/downloads/Encounter_Calculator.htm
                                >
                                > Bless you! A thousand times, bless you!
                                >
                                > It's in javascript! I can see the source, so I can see how he does
                                > it! Logical steps! Algorithms! Oh, bless you!
                                >
                                > *does a little "Hail Greg" dance*

                                Ah. Err. Well. I just report the news, I don't make it.

                                > Ahem. You know you've been a programmer too long when you have to use
                                > a computer algorithm to judge encounter levels.

                                And it's easy to edit, too. I've modified it to have more rows than
                                come with it. Something about making encounters with 8 different
                                monsters... >:)

                                -Greg G


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                              • The Dustmonger
                                ... Hrm... not readily, it s not where I thought it was, but I can verify that WotC modules (like Sunless Citadel) stick to it, by my math.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                  --- Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
                                  > Where is that rule? Do you have a book and page?

                                  Hrm... not readily, it's not where I thought it was,
                                  but I can verify that WotC modules (like Sunless
                                  Citadel) stick to it, by my math.

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                                • Vance
                                  (one little voice from the sidelines meekly speaks up) One note ... Even if what you said is correct, the original question was reguarding Experience which is
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                    (one little voice from the sidelines meekly speaks up)
                                    One note ... Even if what you said is correct, the original question was
                                    reguarding Experience which is calculated by individual "monster" CR, NOT by
                                    EL. (DMG page 166, top left corner). The only lines concerning monsters
                                    below CR1 are in the second column:
                                    Speaking of Orsc .... CR 1/2 ...
                                    "For these cases, calculate XP as if the creature were CR 1, then divide the
                                    result by 2"
                                    For 1/3 you would divide by 3, etc.

                                    VR

                                    >
                                    > --- Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
                                    > > Where is that rule? Do you have a book and page?
                                    >
                                    > Hrm... not readily, it's not where I thought it was,
                                    > but I can verify that WotC modules (like Sunless
                                    > Citadel) stick to it, by my math.
                                  • Emily Smirle
                                    ... DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! I asked nothing about experience, as I don t use the experience charts. My players go up a level once every five sessions
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                      Vance wrote:
                                      > (one little voice from the sidelines meekly speaks up)
                                      > One note ... Even if what you said is correct, the original question was
                                      > reguarding Experience which is calculated by individual "monster" CR, NOT by
                                      > EL. (DMG page 166, top left corner).


                                      DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

                                      I asked nothing about experience, as I don't use the experience charts.
                                      My players go up a level once every five sessions (give or take). Yes,
                                      this is over twice as fast as the DMG suggests. It's not Hurting Bad
                                      Fun, however, so I don't care. :)

                                      All I was looking for was how to calculate Encounter Level, which is a
                                      reasonable ball-park figure for how tough a given group of critters is.
                                      I like to start with an 'official' ball-park before I monkey with it for
                                      situational modifiers (like throwing ghouls and ghasts at a party with
                                      no clerics, paladins, and one incompetant elf : +2 CR )
                                      --
                                      "Is he an evil outsider?"
                                      "Well, he was one of the loners in evil kindergarten..."
                                    • Brass Tilde
                                      ... If you find it, I d be interested. The only thing I ve ever seen is that creatures with a CR below one are combined until they total one. So, four 1/2 CR
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                        > --- Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
                                        > > Where is that rule? Do you have a book and page?
                                        >
                                        > Hrm... not readily, it's not where I thought it was,
                                        > but I can verify that WotC modules (like Sunless
                                        > Citadel) stick to it, by my math.

                                        If you find it, I'd be interested. The only thing I've ever seen is that
                                        creatures with a CR below one are combined until they total one. So, four
                                        1/2 CR Orcs would be treated as two CR 1 creatures, and four CR 1/4
                                        creatures would be treated as one CR 1 creature. I *think* this is in the
                                        back of the PHB, in that "mini-DMG" section, but I'll have to check.

                                        I hope you won't feel too badly about me not paying too much attention to
                                        the way a module does it. <g/>
                                      • Vance
                                        ... (and walks away with foot in mouth)
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                          > > (one little voice from the sidelines meekly speaks up)
                                          (and walks away with foot in mouth)
                                        • The Dustmonger
                                          ... If I find it I ll let the group know... my roommate s car (which I share with him) was broken into, however, so I ll be a couple days before I have free
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                            --- Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
                                            > If you find it, I'd be interested.
                                            > I hope you won't feel too badly about me not paying
                                            > too much attention to the way a module does it.

                                            If I find it I'll let the group know... my roommate's
                                            car (which I share with him) was broken into, however,
                                            so I'll be a couple days before I have free time to
                                            sit down and flip through books.

                                            And if you can show me a man who runs everything by
                                            the book, I'll show you a liar :)

                                            Dusty

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                                          • Vance
                                            I run everything by the book! DMG Page 6 You get to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them That s me...
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
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                                              I run everything by the book!

                                              DMG Page 6
                                              "You get to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly
                                              to adhere to them"

                                              That's me...

                                              > And if you can show me a man who runs everything by
                                              > the book, I'll show you a liar :)
                                              >
                                              > Dusty
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