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Uncanny Dodge - Rog1/Bar1 Dex Bonus to AC?

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  • Tir Gwaith
    Ok, I m looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works. Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is used, etc. Basically: a
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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      Ok, I'm looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works.

      Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is used, etc.

      Basically:
      a Rogue2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
      a Barabarian3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
      What does a Rog1/Bar1 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
      What does a Rog1/Bar2 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)

      In other words, when they gain a level in either class that would grant them
      an Uncanny Dodge, 1) do they gain a stacking Uncanny Dodge, or 2) is it the
      levels of the classes that grant it, and using the fastest advancing method
      of those classes?

      Our SPECIALS tags goes off of #2 as near as I can tell. I can't find
      anything to support that, tho. I know it was programmed that way for a
      reason....

      Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects directly...

      Tir Gwaith
      PCGen BoD
      Data Silverback
    • Jayme Cox
      ... No, the levels do not stack for the granting of the SA. They do stack later on for how much higher level a rogue has to be to flank you (I think it s 4
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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        > Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is
        > used, etc.

        No, the levels do not stack for the granting of the SA. They do stack
        later on for how much higher level a rogue has to be to flank you (I
        think it's 4 levels higher, so a Rogue6/Bbn4 would need a 14th level
        Rogue to flank him)

        --Jayme
      • John Sussenberger
        From the SRD: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack & Similar Class Features Some Class Features improve at higher levels. When a character gains a Class Feature
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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          From the SRD: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack & Similar Class Features
          Some Class Features improve at higher levels. When a character gains a Class Feature from two or more classes that behaves in this manner, treat the Class Feature as though the class levels of the classes including that Class Feature of the character were combined to determine how effective the class feature is. For Sneak Attack, simply add the additional damage dice.



          I think the character has to gain the ability first for these classes to stack.



          -John-

          From the

          Tir Gwaith <thoron-tir-gwaith@...> wrote:Ok, I'm looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works.

          Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is used, etc.

          Basically:
          a Rogue2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
          a Barabarian3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
          What does a Rog1/Bar1 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
          What does a Rog1/Bar2 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)

          In other words, when they gain a level in either class that would grant them
          an Uncanny Dodge, 1) do they gain a stacking Uncanny Dodge, or 2) is it the
          levels of the classes that grant it, and using the fastest advancing method
          of those classes?

          Our SPECIALS tags goes off of #2 as near as I can tell. I can't find
          anything to support that, tho. I know it was programmed that way for a
          reason....

          Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects directly...

          Tir Gwaith
          PCGen BoD
          Data Silverback



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        • Andy Knight
          This is non-SRD info, but it should help clarify-- PHB (2nd printing) pg 56: In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced barbarians and
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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            This is non-SRD info, but it should help clarify-- PHB (2nd
            printing) pg 56:
            "In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced
            barbarians and experienced rogues have the same ability. A
            barbarian/rogue can treat her barbarian levels as rogue
            levels (or vice versa) to determine how effective her
            uncanny dodge is."

            From there it goes on to explain how Sorcerer/Wizards stack
            their levels for familiar related stuff.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: John Sussenberger [mailto:j_sheridan@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:44 PM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Uncanny Dodge - Rog1/Bar1 Dex Bonus to
            AC?


            From the SRD: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack & Similar
            Class Features
            Some Class Features improve at higher levels. When a
            character gains a Class Feature from two or more classes
            that behaves in this manner, treat the Class Feature as
            though the class levels of the classes including that Class
            Feature of the character were combined to determine how
            effective the class feature is. For Sneak Attack, simply
            add the additional damage dice.



            I think the character has to gain the ability first for
            these classes to stack.



            -John-

            From the

            Tir Gwaith <thoron-tir-gwaith@...> wrote:Ok, I'm
            looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge
            works.

            Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class
            is used, etc.

            Basically:
            a Rogue2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
            a Barabarian3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
            What does a Rog1/Bar1 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
            What does a Rog1/Bar2 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)

            In other words, when they gain a level in either class that
            would grant them
            an Uncanny Dodge, 1) do they gain a stacking Uncanny Dodge,
            or 2) is it the
            levels of the classes that grant it, and using the fastest
            advancing method
            of those classes?

            Our SPECIALS tags goes off of #2 as near as I can tell. I
            can't find
            anything to support that, tho. I know it was programmed
            that way for a
            reason....

            Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects
            directly...

            Tir Gwaith
            PCGen BoD
            Data Silverback



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          • Hugo <emperorfranz@yahoo.com>
            I would agree with this interpretation reading the SRD alone. There is a conflict with the phb however because the phb is worded much differently because it
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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              I would agree with this interpretation reading the SRD alone. There
              is a conflict with the phb however because the phb is worded much
              differently because it does not include the "when" clause listed
              below. It only lists the 2 classes as stacking for the effect(with no
              mention that the class has to gain the ability first). I would
              imagine the rog1/bar1 stacking is due to the phb interpretation. The
              DnDFAQ doesn't clarify this either. I would hazard a guess that
              DnD3.5 will be clearer(i.e. more like the SRD) if anyone wants to
              bet. Until 3.5 comes out, there are 2 valid interpretations, of which
              the SRD must be the de facto interpretation for pcgen. I know I would
              appreciate an implementation that would allow me to mod this for my
              home campaigns to match the current phb's looser interpretation. :)

              Hope this helps,
              Hugo
              LST Gorilla stuck in the body of Saguinus Imperator

              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, John Sussenberger <j_sheridan@y...>
              wrote:
              > From the SRD: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack & Similar Class
              Features
              > Some Class Features improve at higher levels. When a character
              gains a Class Feature from two or more classes that behaves in this
              manner, treat the Class Feature as though the class levels of the
              classes including that Class Feature of the character were combined
              to determine how effective the class feature is. For Sneak Attack,
              simply add the additional damage dice.
              >
              >
              >
              > I think the character has to gain the ability first for these
              classes to stack.
              >
              >
              >
              > -John-
              >
              > From the
              >
              > Tir Gwaith <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:Ok, I'm looking for
              official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works.
              >
              > Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is used,
              etc.
              >
              > Basically:
              > a Rogue2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
              > a Barabarian3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
              > What does a Rog1/Bar1 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
              > What does a Rog1/Bar2 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
              >
              > In other words, when they gain a level in either class that would
              grant them
              > an Uncanny Dodge, 1) do they gain a stacking Uncanny Dodge, or 2)
              is it the
              > levels of the classes that grant it, and using the fastest
              advancing method
              > of those classes?
              >
              > Our SPECIALS tags goes off of #2 as near as I can tell. I can't
              find
              > anything to support that, tho. I know it was programmed that way
              for a
              > reason....
              >
              > Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects directly...
              >
              > Tir Gwaith
              > PCGen BoD
              > Data Silverback
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              >
              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            • Tir Gwaith
              ... Ok, now I can see how SPECIALS got off track. I know what I have to do. Expect an Uncanny Dodge update next week. I ll make them work Right. :) Thanks
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 26, 2003
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                > This is non-SRD info, but it should help clarify-- PHB (2nd
                > printing) pg 56:
                > "In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced
                > barbarians and experienced rogues have the same ability. A
                > barbarian/rogue can treat her barbarian levels as rogue
                > levels (or vice versa) to determine how effective her
                > uncanny dodge is."
                >
                > From there it goes on to explain how Sorcerer/Wizards stack
                > their levels for familiar related stuff.

                Ok, now I can see how SPECIALS got off track. I know what I have to do.
                Expect an Uncanny Dodge update next week. I'll make them work Right. :)

                Thanks everyone. I was feeling like an idiot for a while there... :)

                Tir Gwaith
                PCGen BoD
                Data Silverback
              • Paul W. King <kingpaul@erie.net>
                ... That s how I interpret it. To use your Uncanny Dodge example: Rogue 3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC) Barbarian 2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC) Now, you
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                  > From the SRD: Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack & Similar Class
                  > Features
                  > Some Class Features improve at higher levels. When a character
                  > gains a Class Feature from two or more classes that behaves in this
                  > manner, treat the Class Feature as though the class levels of the
                  > classes including that Class Feature of the character were combined
                  > to determine how effective the class feature is. For Sneak Attack,
                  > simply add the additional damage dice.
                  >
                  > I think the character has to gain the ability first for these
                  > classes to stack.

                  That's how I interpret it. To use your Uncanny Dodge example:

                  Rogue 3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
                  Barbarian 2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)

                  Now, you *can't*, IMO, get the ability until a class that you have
                  grants that ability. So, either Rogue 3 or Barbarian 2. However, if
                  you were a Rogue 3/Barbarian 2, you would then have 2 instances of
                  Uncanny Dodge, and would, therefore, have: Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
                  and Uncanny Dodge (can no longer be flanked).

                  Paul W. King
                  OGL Gibbon
                • Ian Dale <ian_dale@hotmail.com>
                  ... Easy to do, when the sources are so confusing (even more so in the SRD, what with a lot of text gone missing, or else not retyped)! :) -Ian LST Tamarin
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Tir Gwaith" <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:
                    > Thanks everyone. I was feeling like an idiot for a while there... :)

                    Easy to do, when the sources are so confusing (even more so in the
                    SRD, what with a lot of text gone missing, or else not retyped)! :)

                    -Ian
                    LST Tamarin
                  • Keith Davies
                    ... According to Sean Reynolds (passing on from... bugger. The primary on PHB), Bbn1/Rog1 does get Uncanny Dodge. The general rule (which he and the original
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                      On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 07:13:22PM -0600, Tir Gwaith wrote:
                      > Ok, I'm looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works.
                      >
                      > Do the levels of the classes stack, and if so, which class is used, etc.
                      >
                      > Basically:
                      > a Rogue2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
                      > a Barabarian3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
                      > What does a Rog1/Bar1 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
                      > What does a Rog1/Bar2 get? (Does she get Dex bonus or not?)
                      >
                      > In other words, when they gain a level in either class that would grant them
                      > an Uncanny Dodge, 1) do they gain a stacking Uncanny Dodge, or 2) is it the
                      > levels of the classes that grant it, and using the fastest advancing method
                      > of those classes?
                      >
                      > Our SPECIALS tags goes off of #2 as near as I can tell. I can't find
                      > anything to support that, tho. I know it was programmed that way for a
                      > reason....
                      >
                      > Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects directly...

                      According to Sean Reynolds (passing on from... bugger. The primary on
                      PHB), Bbn1/Rog1 does get Uncanny Dodge. The general rule (which he and
                      the original author both agree was poorly considered) is that you use
                      the most advantageous progression in cases like this.

                      You don't for things that get increments (such as sneak attack), but you
                      do for things that come in at particular levels (such as Uncanny Dodge).

                      I can dig up the message and answer from Sean if you need; it's
                      somewhere in my backspool.


                      Keith
                      --
                      Keith Davies
                      keith.davies@...

                      PCGen: <reaper/>, smartass
                      "You just can't argue with a moron. It's like handling Nuclear
                      waste. It's not good, it's not evil, but for Christ's sake, don't
                      get any on you!!" -- Chuck, PCGen mailing list
                    • Keith Davies
                      ... ... Okay, I dug up and excerpted from the thread on this: ... This is the closest I ve got to official ruling on this. Personally I wouldn t have
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                        On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 10:24:58AM -0800, Keith Davies wrote:
                        > On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 07:13:22PM -0600, Tir Gwaith wrote:
                        > > Ok, I'm looking for official reference as to how Uncanny dodge works.

                        <snip>

                        > > Anyone know? This effects one of my next projects directly...
                        >
                        > I can dig up the message and answer from Sean if you need; it's
                        > somewhere in my backspool.

                        Okay, I dug up and excerpted from the thread on this:

                        Sean:
                        > Keith:
                        > > Sean:
                        > > > Yes, you do. Ditto for uncanny dodge ... if your bbn and rog
                        > > > levels together are enough to get you UD, you get it at that
                        > > > value, even if your separate levels would get you nothing.
                        > >
                        > > What do you do with classes that gain particular abilities at
                        > > different levels, then? Bbn gets UD at second level, Rog gets it at
                        > > third. Do
                        > >
                        > > A. Bbn1/Rog1
                        > > B. Rog1/Bbn1
                        > > C. Bbn2/Rog1
                        > > D. Rog2/Bbn1
                        > >
                        > > (C) obviously gets it, as Bbn2 is sufficient. Do the levels add up
                        > > according to the class level being added? If so, B and D would both
                        > > get it, but A wouldn't.
                        >
                        > As written (for uncanny dodge), you use the more favorable rate. When
                        > Jonathan Tweet was asked about it (after the fact) he said he would
                        > have preferred using the less favorable rate so the single-class
                        > barbarian is at a slight advantage in getting his class abilities. But
                        > there's a precedent in print to use the most favorable, and nothing
                        > has contradicted it so far, so I'd use that.

                        This is the closest I've got to 'official ruling' on this. Personally I
                        wouldn't have done it this way, but there you go.


                        Keith
                        --
                        Keith Davies
                        keith.davies@...

                        PCGen: <reaper/>, smartass
                        "You just can't argue with a moron. It's like handling Nuclear
                        waste. It's not good, it's not evil, but for Christ's sake, don't
                        get any on you!!" -- Chuck, PCGen mailing list
                      • Jayme Cox
                        ... That can t be correct. Here is an example: Rogue get s Evasion at 2nd Level Shadow Dancer get s Evasion at 2nd Level Let s say I have a: Ftr10/Rog1/Shd1
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                          >
                          > Sean:
                          > > Keith:
                          > > > Sean:
                          > > > > Yes, you do. Ditto for uncanny dodge ... if your bbn and rog
                          > > > > levels together are enough to get you UD, you get it at that
                          > > > > value, even if your separate levels would get you nothing.

                          That can't be correct. Here is an example:

                          Rogue get's Evasion at 2nd Level
                          Shadow Dancer get's Evasion at 2nd Level

                          Let's say I have a: Ftr10/Rog1/Shd1

                          Since Rog1 + Shd1 = 2 does that mean I get Evasion?

                          Another example:

                          Monk's get Timeless body at level 17
                          Druid's get Timeless body at level 15

                          Does a Monk10/Druid5 get Timeless body?

                          I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. I think we should
                          stick with the SRD on this one.
                        • Ian Dale <ian_dale@hotmail.com>
                          ... It was just for Uncanny Dodge, not for any other abilities. Though the SRD doesn t say anything about Barbarian and Rogue levels stacking for Uncanny Dodge
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Jayme Cox" <jayme@r...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Sean:
                            > > > Keith:
                            > > > > Sean:
                            > > > > > Yes, you do. Ditto for uncanny dodge ... if your bbn and rog
                            > > > > > levels together are enough to get you UD, you get it at that
                            > > > > > value, even if your separate levels would get you nothing.
                            >
                            > That can't be correct. Here is an example:
                            >
                            > Rogue get's Evasion at 2nd Level
                            > Shadow Dancer get's Evasion at 2nd Level
                            >
                            > Let's say I have a: Ftr10/Rog1/Shd1
                            >
                            > Since Rog1 + Shd1 = 2 does that mean I get Evasion?
                            >
                            > Another example:
                            >
                            > Monk's get Timeless body at level 17
                            > Druid's get Timeless body at level 15
                            >
                            > Does a Monk10/Druid5 get Timeless body?
                            >
                            > I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. I think we should
                            > stick with the SRD on this one.

                            It was just for Uncanny Dodge, not for any other abilities. Though the
                            SRD doesn't say anything about Barbarian and Rogue levels stacking for
                            Uncanny Dodge (even though the PHB sounds like it does). It's a
                            recurring ability, as opposed to a single ability that a high-level
                            class member would have access to, so I could see levels stacking.
                            Though since the SRD doesn't mention it, we may want to check on
                            whether it was intentionally left out or not.

                            -Ian
                            LST Tamarin
                          • Keith Davies
                            ... This one doesn t seem unreasonable because the two classes (Rog&Shd) both get it at second level. ... This one doesn t seem quite as reasonable because
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 27, 2003
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                              On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 11:53:56AM -0800, Jayme Cox wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Sean:
                              > > > Keith:
                              > > > > Sean:
                              > > > > > Yes, you do. Ditto for uncanny dodge ... if your bbn and rog
                              > > > > > levels together are enough to get you UD, you get it at that
                              > > > > > value, even if your separate levels would get you nothing.
                              >
                              > That can't be correct. Here is an example:
                              >
                              > Rogue get's Evasion at 2nd Level
                              > Shadow Dancer get's Evasion at 2nd Level
                              >
                              > Let's say I have a: Ftr10/Rog1/Shd1
                              >
                              > Since Rog1 + Shd1 = 2 does that mean I get Evasion?

                              This one doesn't seem unreasonable because the two classes (Rog&Shd)
                              both get it at second level.

                              > Another example:
                              >
                              > Monk's get Timeless body at level 17
                              > Druid's get Timeless body at level 15
                              >
                              > Does a Monk10/Druid5 get Timeless body?

                              This one doesn't seem quite as reasonable because it's arguable that
                              monks and druids get timeless body for different reasons. Still, from
                              what Sean said, that is in fact the correct interpretation.

                              As I Tweet said, using the lesser rate of progression is a better way of
                              doing it, but there was precedent for using the better progression rate.

                              > I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. I think we should
                              > stick with the SRD on this one.

                              I agree that it isn't a very good way of handling it, but it *is* what
                              was presented to me as being the 'correct' way of interpreting the rule.


                              Keith
                              --
                              Keith Davies
                              keith.davies@...

                              PCGen: <reaper/>, smartass
                              "You just can't argue with a moron. It's like handling Nuclear
                              waste. It's not good, it's not evil, but for Christ's sake, don't
                              get any on you!!" -- Chuck, PCGen mailing list
                            • telgarfr <sebastien.peslin@club-internet
                              That s exactly my own interpretation. I see it as : you add your uncanny dodge ranks but not your class level. So at Rogue lvl 3, you gain 1 rank in uncanny
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 28, 2003
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                                That's exactly my own interpretation.
                                I see it as : you add your uncanny dodge ranks but not your class
                                level. So at Rogue lvl 3, you gain 1 rank in uncanny dodge and at
                                Barbarian 2, you gain 1 rank in uncanny dodge.
                                Rank 1 of uncanny dodge gives you (Dex to AC)
                                Rank 2 of uncanny dodge gives you (Cannot be flanked)
                                ...
                                Easy to understand, easy to manage :-)

                                S├ębastien

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. King <kingpaul@e...>"
                                <kingpaul@e...> wrote:
                                >
                                > That's how I interpret it. To use your Uncanny Dodge example:
                                >
                                > Rogue 3 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
                                > Barbarian 2 gets Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
                                >
                                > Now, you *can't*, IMO, get the ability until a class that you have
                                > grants that ability. So, either Rogue 3 or Barbarian 2. However,
                                if
                                > you were a Rogue 3/Barbarian 2, you would then have 2 instances of
                                > Uncanny Dodge, and would, therefore, have: Uncanny Dodge (Dex to
                                AC)
                                > and Uncanny Dodge (can no longer be flanked).
                                >
                                > Paul W. King
                                > OGL Gibbon
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