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Re: LANGUAGE Limits

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  • mocha@mcs.net
    My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the spoken languages but the written languages
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
      My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
      Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the spoken
      languages but the written languages of the characters. When the
      languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can write in a
      one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language there's only
      one written language and if you know one you know the other) then
      this is appropriate. Since campaigns like KoK (and probably FR or
      other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the difference
      between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split them out
      as two different skills. This maximizes the flexibility even if it
      adds a skill that doesn't technically exist. Whichever classes have
      Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write Alphabet as a
      class skill. I suppose one could construe a case where Sages should
      have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak Languages, since I
      think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like Accadian or
      the other languages on the Rosetta stone).

      I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with the whole
      regional upgrade. This will require some heavy pondering to make
      sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many region-specific
      issues and language type issues as possible. When the time comes
      that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my ideas past
      you to see what you think. :)

      -Bryan

      -Bryan
      I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't actually
      listed anywhere
      --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
      > Remember we are working on two front now.
      >
      > First a work around to allow character sheets to print out with the
      > correct language and alphabet information. The characters created
      > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to represent
      > literacy in their known language(s). It also allows a DM to split
      > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG and FR.
      >
      > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
      > underconsideration for post 2.0 release. This will take into
      > consideration the relationship between languages and alphabets.
      > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any alphabet,
      it
      > just makes translation a bit tricky. ) This would require a
      heafty
      > challenge rating. You should see my wife try to read my attempts
      to
      > spell Vietnamise. And this is with similar alphabets
      (English/French
      >
      > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
      > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write alphabet' does
      not
      > exist as
      > > a skill.
      > >
      > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that language.
      > > They are one skill, not two.
      > >
      > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point costs
      > involved.
      > >
      > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It needs the
      > ability for a
      > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let you 'choose
      > and
      > > alphabet'.
      > >
      > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets are
      > available for
      > > which languages. And which of these choices work for what region
      > and ethnic
      > > group the PC comes from.
      > >
      > >
    • Arcady
      Well... It s more like this: If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B, they write
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
        Well...


        It's more like this:

        If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
        with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
        they write it out with alphabet B.

        It's still one language.

        By the rules it should stay one language.


        --- mocha@... wrote:
        > My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
        >
        > Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the
        > spoken
        > languages but the written languages of the characters.
        > When the
        > languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can
        > write in a
        > one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language
        > there's only
        > one written language and if you know one you know the
        > other) then
        > this is appropriate. Since campaigns like KoK (and
        > probably FR or
        > other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the
        > difference
        > between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split
        > them out
        > as two different skills. This maximizes the flexibility
        > even if it
        > adds a skill that doesn't technically exist. Whichever
        > classes have
        > Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write
        > Alphabet as a
        > class skill. I suppose one could construe a case where
        > Sages should
        > have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak
        > Languages, since I
        > think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like
        > Accadian or
        > the other languages on the Rosetta stone).
        >
        > I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with
        > the whole
        > regional upgrade. This will require some heavy pondering
        > to make
        > sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many
        > region-specific
        > issues and language type issues as possible. When the time
        > comes
        > that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my
        > ideas past
        > you to see what you think. :)
        >
        > -Bryan
        >
        > -Bryan
        > I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't
        > actually
        > listed anywhere
        > --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
        > > Remember we are working on two front now.
        > >
        > > First a work around to allow character sheets to print
        > out with the
        > > correct language and alphabet information. The
        > characters created
        > > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to
        > represent
        > > literacy in their known language(s). It also allows a DM
        > to split
        > > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG
        > and FR.
        > >
        > > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
        > > underconsideration for post 2.0 release. This will take
        > into
        > > consideration the relationship between languages and
        > alphabets.
        > > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any
        > alphabet,
        > it
        > > just makes translation a bit tricky. ) This would
        > require a
        > heafty
        > > challenge rating. You should see my wife try to read my
        > attempts
        > to
        > > spell Vietnamise. And this is with similar alphabets
        > (English/French
        > >
        > > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
        > > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write
        > alphabet' does
        > not
        > > exist as
        > > > a skill.
        > > >
        > > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that
        > language.
        > > > They are one skill, not two.
        > > >
        > > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point
        > costs
        > > involved.
        > > >
        > > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It
        > needs the
        > > ability for a
        > > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let
        > you 'choose
        > > and
        > > > alphabet'.
        > > >
        > > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets
        > are
        > > available for
        > > > which languages. And which of these choices work for
        > what region
        > > and ethnic
        > > > group the PC comes from.
        > > >
        > > >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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      • Shane Harsch
        Why not treat each Alphabet as a separate craft skill? If you are literate, instead of being literate you are skilled in Dejy and Craft(AlphaA). If you go to
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
           
           
          Why not treat each Alphabet as a separate craft skill? If you are literate, instead of being literate you are skilled in Dejy and Craft(AlphaA). If you go to learn another Lang, you have to learn another Alphabet. Unfortunately, learning an alphabet is no where near as difficult as learning a language, unless the language is pictographic, and then it's exactly like a language.
           
          My proposal:
           
          Craft(Alphabet) - INT - is a skill. This isn't too far from realistic, and you could even get into legibility: make a craft(alphabet) check, DC 10. Success = reader gets +2, 20 = reader gets +4, 1 = illegible. The reader must make a Craft(alphabet) check, applying whatever bonuses, vs DC 10 (concealment due to light applies).
           
          Languages should have a default alphabet associated with them. When you take speak language you need to learn one of those. If later you wanted to learn another alphabet, you could buy more ranks in Craft and learn the alphabet. After that point you would know the alphabet and if there was another language that used the same alphabet you would know how to write that language once you spoke it.
           
          Example
          Speak Language is defined with the following languages: English, German, Russian
          Craft (Roman) is the roman alphabet
          Craft (Cyrillic) is the cyrillic alphabet
           
          I am literate so I start the game with English and Craft(Roman alphabet). If I want to learn German I buy speak language and choose German. Since German uses the same alphabet, Craft(Roman), I can also write German (yes I know there are a couple of special characters but that's trivial). However, if I go to learn Russian, I would need to buy speak language and choose Russian but I would also have to learn Craft(Cyrillic) in order to write it in anything but the roman alphabet, which can be done pretty easily. However, since Cyrillic is the default alphabet for Russian, I would have a hard time communicating with the average russian by writing in the roman alphabet.
           
          The trick is to be sure that Craft(alphabet) is cross class for barbarians. 1 rank in Craft(alphabet) is enough since you only need a DC 10 check to write legibly (can't take 10 or 20), and even then the average reader will make their roll. You can always start over if your penmanship is bad.    =8)
           
          Personally, I don't think I would include "legibility tests" in my game. I would simply require 1 rank of Craft(alphabet) in order to be literate and leave it at that. This solution solves the literacy and the alphabet problem in a relatively realistic fashon.
           
          mudpyr8
          No, no, I really AM an applied linguist.
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Arcady
          Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:36 PM
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: LANGUAGE Limits

          *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* Well...


          It's more like this:

          If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
          with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
          they write it out with alphabet B.

          It's still one language.

          By the rules it should stay one language.


          --- mocha@... wrote:
          > My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
          >
          > Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the
          > spoken
          > languages but the written languages of the characters.
          > When the
          > languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can
          > write in a
          > one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language
          > there's only
          > one written language and if you know one you know the
          > other) then
          > this is appropriate.  Since campaigns like KoK (and
          > probably FR or
          > other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the
          > difference
          > between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split
          > them out
          > as two different skills.  This maximizes the flexibility
          > even if it
          > adds a skill that doesn't technically exist.  Whichever
          > classes have
          > Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write
          > Alphabet as a
          > class skill.  I suppose one could construe a case where
          > Sages should
          > have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak
          > Languages, since I
          > think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like
          > Accadian or
          > the other languages on the Rosetta stone).
          >
          > I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with
          > the whole
          > regional upgrade.  This will require some heavy pondering
          > to make
          > sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many
          > region-specific
          > issues and language type issues as possible.  When the time
          > comes
          > that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my
          > ideas past
          > you to see what you think. :)
          >
          > -Bryan
          >
          > -Bryan
          > I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't
          > actually
          > listed anywhere
          > --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
          > > Remember we are working on two front now. 
          > >
          > > First a work around to allow character sheets to print
          > out with the
          > > correct language and alphabet information.  The
          > characters created
          > > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to
          > represent
          > > literacy in their known language(s).  It also allows a DM
          > to split
          > > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG
          > and FR.
          > >
          > > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
          > > underconsideration for post 2.0 release.  This will take
          > into
          > > consideration the relationship between languages and
          > alphabets. 
          > > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any
          > alphabet,
          > it
          > > just makes translation a bit tricky.  )  This would
          > require a
          > heafty
          > > challenge rating.  You should see my wife try to read my
          > attempts
          > to
          > > spell Vietnamise.  And this is with similar alphabets
          > (English/French
          > >
          > > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
          > > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write
          > alphabet' does
          > not
          > > exist as
          > > > a skill.
          > > >
          > > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that
          > language.
          > > > They are one skill, not two.
          > > >
          > > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point
          > costs
          > > involved.
          > > >
          > > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It
          > needs the
          > > ability for a
          > > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let
          > you 'choose
          > > and
          > > > alphabet'.
          > > >
          > > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets
          > are
          > > available for
          > > > which languages. And which of these choices work for
          > what region
          > > and ethnic
          > > > group the PC comes from.
          > > >
          > > >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >

          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


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        • Vance
          ... I ve been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in. Just list the Languages as: Dejy (A) Dejy (B) Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet,
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
            >
            >If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
            >with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
            >they write it out with alphabet B.
            >
            >It's still one language.
            >
            >By the rules it should stay one language.
            I've been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in.

            Just list the Languages as:
            Dejy (A)
            Dejy (B)

            Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet, just connect it to the
            root language. It might show up twice in your language skills, but now you
            can write both Alphabets.
            VR
          • Arcady
            This could work. You d have about 10 versions of every language... but it could work. You do still need the LANGAUTO:CHOOSE feature. and the regional and
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
              This could work.

              You'd have about 10 versions of every language... but it
              could work.

              You do still need the LANGAUTO:CHOOSE feature.
              and the regional and ethnic features.

              --- Vance <clubvance@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it
              > out
              > >with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location
              > B,
              > >they write it out with alphabet B.
              > >
              > >It's still one language.
              > >
              > >By the rules it should stay one language.
              > I've been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in.
              >
              > Just list the Languages as:
              > Dejy (A)
              > Dejy (B)
              >
              > Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet, just
              > connect it to the
              > root language. It might show up twice in your language
              > skills, but now you
              > can write both Alphabets.
              > VR
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


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            • nezzir@home.com
              I m new to the list. I don t know if this has been covered yet: I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor check penalty as well as +3
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
                I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:

                I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor check
                penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex modifier to +3.

                Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.

                There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes that if
                you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes to be
                calculated (armor is one of the changes).

                I'm running the 1.4a beta

                I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D Players
                Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
              • maggard@aztec.asu.edu
                Yet in the same region the example can occur. The Dejy clan based. Also the Merchant language is written in many alphabets. The flexibility of having two
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
                  Yet in the same region the example can occur. The Dejy clan based.
                  Also the Merchant language is written in many alphabets. The
                  flexibility of having two skills and using the FREE Write Alphabet:
                  CHOOSE if you tie Literacy to Speak Language is could work.

                  --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                  > a> Sometimes it's not simple though.
                  >
                  > a> In Kalamar...
                  >
                  > a> The Dejy in one place might use the Kalamar alphabet.
                  > a> In other they might use an elven alphabet.
                  >
                  > a> But in both places they're still speaking dejy.
                  >
                  > a> (hypothetical examples not actual ones).
                  >
                  > hmmmm, that's where region support kicks in. just define standard
                  > language and alphabet for each region.....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@l...
                • mocha@mcs.net
                  ... check ... modifier to +3. ... Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a character and this all works correctly. Do you have
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                    --- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                    > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                    >
                    > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                    check
                    > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                    modifier to +3.
                    >
                    > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.

                    Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                    character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                    equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                    >
                    > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                    that if
                    > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                    to be
                    > calculated (armor is one of the changes).

                    Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                    shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                    effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                    file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                    follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                    effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.

                    -Bryan


                    >
                    > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                    >
                    > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                    Players
                    > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.

                    Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                    created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                    and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                    what armor proficiencies you have).

                    -Bryan
                  • nezzir@home.com
                    ... I am proficient with light armor. Here s what I have equipped: Longbow (composite) Musical instrument,common (small) Entertainer (Clothing) Arrows (20)
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                      At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                      >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                      > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                      > >
                      > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                      >check
                      > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                      >modifier to +3.
                      > >
                      > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                      >
                      >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                      >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                      >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                      I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                      Longbow (composite)
                      Musical instrument,common (small)
                      Entertainer (Clothing)
                      Arrows (20)
                      Backpack
                      (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)

                      > >
                      > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                      >that if
                      > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                      >to be
                      > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                      >
                      >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                      >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                      >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                      >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                      >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                      >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                      >
                      >-Bryan

                      The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                      not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                      but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                      weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some notes.



                      > >
                      > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                      > >
                      > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                      >Players
                      > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                      >
                      >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                      >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                      >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                      >what armor proficiencies you have).
                      >
                      >-Bryan
                      >
                      Half-Elven
                      Bard
                      Level 1
                      Dex = 16

                      Note: New bug -
                      I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                      it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                      minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                      or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                      reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                      the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                      composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.

                      If you would like I can send you the character file.

                      PS - Thanks for responding




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                      NezziR,
                      Mark A. Warren
                      -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                      "Tis now the very witching time of night
                      when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                      now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                      quake to look on."

                      William Shakespeare,
                      Hamlet
                    • Franco, Matthew E
                      make sure your chacter isn t carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen adds minuses do to ecumberance as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                        make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen
                        adds minuses do to ecumberance

                        as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell book?

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: nezzir@... [mailto:nezzir@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found


                        At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                        >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                        > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                        > >
                        > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                        >check
                        > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                        >modifier to +3.
                        > >
                        > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                        >
                        >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                        >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                        >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                        I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                        Longbow (composite)
                        Musical instrument,common (small)
                        Entertainer (Clothing)
                        Arrows (20)
                        Backpack
                        (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)

                        > >
                        > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                        >that if
                        > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                        >to be
                        > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                        >
                        >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                        >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                        >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                        >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                        >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                        >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                        >
                        >-Bryan

                        The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                        not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                        but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                        weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some
                        notes.



                        > >
                        > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                        > >
                        > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                        >Players
                        > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                        >
                        >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                        >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                        >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                        >what armor proficiencies you have).
                        >
                        >-Bryan
                        >
                        Half-Elven
                        Bard
                        Level 1
                        Dex = 16

                        Note: New bug -
                        I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                        it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                        minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                        or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                        reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                        the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                        composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.

                        If you would like I can send you the character file.

                        PS - Thanks for responding




                        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        NezziR,
                        Mark A. Warren
                        -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                        "Tis now the very witching time of night
                        when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                        now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                        quake to look on."

                        William Shakespeare,
                        Hamlet



                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • nezzir@home.com
                        I am lightly loaded. I have spells in my spell book. I probably need to start it from scratch... ... NezziR, Mark A. Warren
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                          I am lightly loaded.
                          I have spells in my spell book.

                          I probably need to start it from scratch...

                          At 01:23 PM 6/6/2001 -0400, you wrote:
                          >make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen
                          >adds minuses do to ecumberance
                          >
                          >as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell book?
                          >
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: nezzir@... [mailto:nezzir@...]
                          >Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                          >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                          >
                          >
                          >At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                          > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                          > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                          > > >
                          > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                          > >check
                          > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                          > >modifier to +3.
                          > > >
                          > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                          > >
                          > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                          > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                          > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                          >
                          >I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                          >Longbow (composite)
                          >Musical instrument,common (small)
                          >Entertainer (Clothing)
                          >Arrows (20)
                          >Backpack
                          >(Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                          > >that if
                          > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                          > >to be
                          > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                          > >
                          > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                          > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                          > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                          > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                          > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                          > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                          > >
                          > >-Bryan
                          >
                          >The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                          >not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                          >but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                          >weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some
                          >notes.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                          > > >
                          > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                          > >Players
                          > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                          > >
                          > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                          > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                          > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                          > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                          > >
                          > >-Bryan
                          > >
                          >Half-Elven
                          >Bard
                          >Level 1
                          >Dex = 16
                          >
                          >Note: New bug -
                          >I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                          >it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                          >minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                          >or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                          >reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                          >the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                          >composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.
                          >
                          >If you would like I can send you the character file.
                          >
                          >PS - Thanks for responding
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >NezziR,
                          >Mark A. Warren
                          >-=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                          >
                          >"Tis now the very witching time of night
                          >when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                          >now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                          >quake to look on."
                          >
                          >William Shakespeare,
                          >Hamlet
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                          NezziR,
                          Mark A. Warren
                          -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                          "Tis now the very witching time of night
                          when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                          now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                          quake to look on."

                          William Shakespeare,
                          Hamlet
                        • mocha@mcs.net
                          And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at level 5 you do not get
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                            And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not
                            retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at
                            level 5 you do not get the bonus skill points you would have had if
                            you had started out with an INT 12. I think PCGen behaves correctly
                            with this in mind.

                            -Bryan

                            --- In pcgen@y..., "Franco, Matthew E" <francom@p...> wrote:
                            > make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium
                            load pcgen
                            > adds minuses do to ecumberance
                            >
                            > as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell
                            book?
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: nezzir@h... [mailto:nezzir@h...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                            > To: pcgen@y...
                            > Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                            >
                            >
                            > At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                            > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                            > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                            > > >
                            > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                            > >check
                            > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                            > >modifier to +3.
                            > > >
                            > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                            > >
                            > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created
                            a
                            > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                            > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                            >
                            > I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                            > Longbow (composite)
                            > Musical instrument,common (small)
                            > Entertainer (Clothing)
                            > Arrows (20)
                            > Backpack
                            > (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                            >
                            > > >
                            > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some
                            changes
                            > >that if
                            > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the
                            changes
                            > >to be
                            > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                            > >
                            > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                            > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                            > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                            > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                            > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                            > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                            > >
                            > >-Bryan
                            >
                            > The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and
                            it did
                            > not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other
                            things
                            > but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new
                            campaign this
                            > weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take
                            some
                            > notes.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > >
                            > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                            > > >
                            > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                            > >Players
                            > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                            > >
                            > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                            > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                            > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that
                            affects
                            > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                            > >
                            > >-Bryan
                            > >
                            > Half-Elven
                            > Bard
                            > Level 1
                            > Dex = 16
                            >
                            > Note: New bug -
                            > I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to
                            test
                            > it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack
                            bonus
                            > minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any
                            skill
                            > or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest
                            of the
                            > reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I
                            met all
                            > the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in
                            the
                            > composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no
                            dice.
                            >
                            > If you would like I can send you the character file.
                            >
                            > PS - Thanks for responding
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            > NezziR,
                            > Mark A. Warren
                            > -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                            >
                            > "Tis now the very witching time of night
                            > when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this
                            world,
                            > now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day
                            would
                            > quake to look on."
                            >
                            > William Shakespeare,
                            > Hamlet
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Vance
                            You might check to see if your weight carried is in the light category or the medium category as weight also affects your Max Dex and Armor Check Penalty.
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                              You might check to see if your weight carried is in the "light" category or
                              the "medium" category as weight also affects your Max Dex and Armor Check
                              Penalty.
                              VR



                              >At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                              > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                              > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                              > > >
                              > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                              > >check
                              > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                              > >modifier to +3.
                              > > >
                              > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                              > >
                              > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                              > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                              > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                              >
                              >I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                              >Longbow (composite)
                              >Musical instrument,common (small)
                              >Entertainer (Clothing)
                              >Arrows (20)
                              >Backpack
                              >(Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                              > >that if
                              > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                              > >to be
                              > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                              > >
                              > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                              > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                              > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                              > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                              > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                              > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                              > >
                              > >-Bryan
                              >
                              >The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                              >not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                              >but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                              >weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some notes.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                              > > >
                              > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                              > >Players
                              > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                              > >
                              > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                              > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                              > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                              > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                              > >
                              > >-Bryan
                              > >
                              >Half-Elven
                              >Bard
                              >Level 1
                              >Dex = 16
                              >
                              >Note: New bug -
                              >I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                              >it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                              >minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                              >or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                              >reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                              >the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                              >composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.
                              >
                              >If you would like I can send you the character file.
                              >
                              >PS - Thanks for responding
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >NezziR,
                              >Mark A. Warren
                              >-=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                              >
                              >"Tis now the very witching time of night
                              >when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                              >now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                              >quake to look on."
                              >
                              >William Shakespeare,
                              >Hamlet
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • nezzir@home.com
                              FYI - You were right - it was weight. I was removing the leather and it was taking me under the limit. When I bought it back it carried was not checked so
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 7, 2001
                                FYI - You were right - it was weight. I was removing the leather and it
                                was taking me under the limit. When I bought it back it "carried" was not
                                checked so the weight didn't change. It looked like the leather itself was
                                giving me the penalty...

                                Sorry for the confusion.

                                At 08:59 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                >And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not
                                >retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at
                                >level 5 you do not get the bonus skill points you would have had if
                                >you had started out with an INT 12. I think PCGen behaves correctly
                                >with this in mind.
                                >
                                >-Bryan
                                >
                                >--- In pcgen@y..., "Franco, Matthew E" <francom@p...> wrote:
                                > > make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium
                                >load pcgen
                                > > adds minuses do to ecumberance
                                > >
                                > > as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell
                                >book?
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: nezzir@h... [mailto:nezzir@h...]
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                                > > To: pcgen@y...
                                > > Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                > > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                                > > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                                > > >check
                                > > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                                > > >modifier to +3.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                                > > >
                                > > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created
                                >a
                                > > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                                > > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                                > >
                                > > I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                                > > Longbow (composite)
                                > > Musical instrument,common (small)
                                > > Entertainer (Clothing)
                                > > Arrows (20)
                                > > Backpack
                                > > (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                                > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some
                                >changes
                                > > >that if
                                > > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the
                                >changes
                                > > >to be
                                > > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                                > > >
                                > > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                                > > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                                > > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                                > > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                                > > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                                > > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                                > > >
                                > > >-Bryan
                                > >
                                > > The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and
                                >it did
                                > > not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other
                                >things
                                > > but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new
                                >campaign this
                                > > weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take
                                >some
                                > > notes.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                                > > >Players
                                > > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                                > > >
                                > > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                                > > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                                > > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that
                                >affects
                                > > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                                > > >
                                > > >-Bryan
                                > > >
                                > > Half-Elven
                                > > Bard
                                > > Level 1
                                > > Dex = 16
                                > >
                                > > Note: New bug -
                                > > I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to
                                >test
                                > > it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack
                                >bonus
                                > > minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any
                                >skill
                                > > or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest
                                >of the
                                > > reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I
                                >met all
                                > > the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in
                                >the
                                > > composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no
                                >dice.
                                > >
                                > > If you would like I can send you the character file.
                                > >
                                > > PS - Thanks for responding
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > > NezziR,
                                > > Mark A. Warren
                                > > -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                                > >
                                > > "Tis now the very witching time of night
                                > > when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this
                                >world,
                                > > now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day
                                >would
                                > > quake to look on."
                                > >
                                > > William Shakespeare,
                                > > Hamlet
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
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                                > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                > >
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                                NezziR,
                                Mark A. Warren
                                -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                                "Tis now the very witching time of night
                                when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                                now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                                quake to look on."

                                William Shakespeare,
                                Hamlet
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