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Re: LANGUAGE Limits

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  • maggard@aztec.asu.edu
    Now, if I can get the language to work in the current format, I ll try to add the BONUS:Write Alphabet (CHOOSE: Language(xxxx,yyyy,zzzz). ... making ... would
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 3, 2001
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      Now, if I can get the language to work in the current format, I'll
      try to add the BONUS:Write Alphabet (CHOOSE: Language(xxxx,yyyy,zzzz).


      --- In pcgen@y..., "House Gryphon" <gryps@b...> wrote:
      >
      > Ah-ha..
      >
      > I have a solution :-)
      >
      > In the work for the new XML based data files I have been looking at
      making
      > the bonus/choose system very generic. I can already see how this
      would
      > immediately make what you want possible.
      >
      > In Star Wars there are separate Read/Write and Speak Language
      skills - and
      > so you do need to spend extra points to learn both.
      >
      > In the XML it should be quite possible to define a language skill
      so that
      > when you take it, you automatically get the corresponding alphabet.
      >
      > In the current LST file format this would be equivalent to having a
      > corresponding BONUS:Read/Write (xxxx) for each language xxxx (or a
      >
      > - Sly
    • Lonestar
      a Sometimes it s not simple though. a In Kalamar... a The Dejy in one place might use the Kalamar alphabet. a In other they might use an elven alphabet. a
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 3, 2001
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        a> Sometimes it's not simple though.

        a> In Kalamar...

        a> The Dejy in one place might use the Kalamar alphabet.
        a> In other they might use an elven alphabet.

        a> But in both places they're still speaking dejy.

        a> (hypothetical examples not actual ones).

        hmmmm, that's where region support kicks in. just define standard
        language and alphabet for each region.....



        Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
      • mocha@mcs.net
        My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the spoken languages but the written languages
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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          My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
          Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the spoken
          languages but the written languages of the characters. When the
          languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can write in a
          one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language there's only
          one written language and if you know one you know the other) then
          this is appropriate. Since campaigns like KoK (and probably FR or
          other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the difference
          between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split them out
          as two different skills. This maximizes the flexibility even if it
          adds a skill that doesn't technically exist. Whichever classes have
          Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write Alphabet as a
          class skill. I suppose one could construe a case where Sages should
          have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak Languages, since I
          think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like Accadian or
          the other languages on the Rosetta stone).

          I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with the whole
          regional upgrade. This will require some heavy pondering to make
          sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many region-specific
          issues and language type issues as possible. When the time comes
          that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my ideas past
          you to see what you think. :)

          -Bryan

          -Bryan
          I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't actually
          listed anywhere
          --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
          > Remember we are working on two front now.
          >
          > First a work around to allow character sheets to print out with the
          > correct language and alphabet information. The characters created
          > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to represent
          > literacy in their known language(s). It also allows a DM to split
          > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG and FR.
          >
          > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
          > underconsideration for post 2.0 release. This will take into
          > consideration the relationship between languages and alphabets.
          > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any alphabet,
          it
          > just makes translation a bit tricky. ) This would require a
          heafty
          > challenge rating. You should see my wife try to read my attempts
          to
          > spell Vietnamise. And this is with similar alphabets
          (English/French
          >
          > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
          > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write alphabet' does
          not
          > exist as
          > > a skill.
          > >
          > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that language.
          > > They are one skill, not two.
          > >
          > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point costs
          > involved.
          > >
          > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It needs the
          > ability for a
          > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let you 'choose
          > and
          > > alphabet'.
          > >
          > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets are
          > available for
          > > which languages. And which of these choices work for what region
          > and ethnic
          > > group the PC comes from.
          > >
          > >
        • Arcady
          Well... It s more like this: If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B, they write
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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            Well...


            It's more like this:

            If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
            with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
            they write it out with alphabet B.

            It's still one language.

            By the rules it should stay one language.


            --- mocha@... wrote:
            > My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
            >
            > Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the
            > spoken
            > languages but the written languages of the characters.
            > When the
            > languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can
            > write in a
            > one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language
            > there's only
            > one written language and if you know one you know the
            > other) then
            > this is appropriate. Since campaigns like KoK (and
            > probably FR or
            > other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the
            > difference
            > between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split
            > them out
            > as two different skills. This maximizes the flexibility
            > even if it
            > adds a skill that doesn't technically exist. Whichever
            > classes have
            > Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write
            > Alphabet as a
            > class skill. I suppose one could construe a case where
            > Sages should
            > have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak
            > Languages, since I
            > think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like
            > Accadian or
            > the other languages on the Rosetta stone).
            >
            > I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with
            > the whole
            > regional upgrade. This will require some heavy pondering
            > to make
            > sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many
            > region-specific
            > issues and language type issues as possible. When the time
            > comes
            > that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my
            > ideas past
            > you to see what you think. :)
            >
            > -Bryan
            >
            > -Bryan
            > I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't
            > actually
            > listed anywhere
            > --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
            > > Remember we are working on two front now.
            > >
            > > First a work around to allow character sheets to print
            > out with the
            > > correct language and alphabet information. The
            > characters created
            > > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to
            > represent
            > > literacy in their known language(s). It also allows a DM
            > to split
            > > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG
            > and FR.
            > >
            > > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
            > > underconsideration for post 2.0 release. This will take
            > into
            > > consideration the relationship between languages and
            > alphabets.
            > > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any
            > alphabet,
            > it
            > > just makes translation a bit tricky. ) This would
            > require a
            > heafty
            > > challenge rating. You should see my wife try to read my
            > attempts
            > to
            > > spell Vietnamise. And this is with similar alphabets
            > (English/French
            > >
            > > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
            > > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write
            > alphabet' does
            > not
            > > exist as
            > > > a skill.
            > > >
            > > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that
            > language.
            > > > They are one skill, not two.
            > > >
            > > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point
            > costs
            > > involved.
            > > >
            > > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It
            > needs the
            > > ability for a
            > > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let
            > you 'choose
            > > and
            > > > alphabet'.
            > > >
            > > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets
            > are
            > > available for
            > > > which languages. And which of these choices work for
            > what region
            > > and ethnic
            > > > group the PC comes from.
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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          • Shane Harsch
            Why not treat each Alphabet as a separate craft skill? If you are literate, instead of being literate you are skilled in Dejy and Craft(AlphaA). If you go to
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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              Why not treat each Alphabet as a separate craft skill? If you are literate, instead of being literate you are skilled in Dejy and Craft(AlphaA). If you go to learn another Lang, you have to learn another Alphabet. Unfortunately, learning an alphabet is no where near as difficult as learning a language, unless the language is pictographic, and then it's exactly like a language.
               
              My proposal:
               
              Craft(Alphabet) - INT - is a skill. This isn't too far from realistic, and you could even get into legibility: make a craft(alphabet) check, DC 10. Success = reader gets +2, 20 = reader gets +4, 1 = illegible. The reader must make a Craft(alphabet) check, applying whatever bonuses, vs DC 10 (concealment due to light applies).
               
              Languages should have a default alphabet associated with them. When you take speak language you need to learn one of those. If later you wanted to learn another alphabet, you could buy more ranks in Craft and learn the alphabet. After that point you would know the alphabet and if there was another language that used the same alphabet you would know how to write that language once you spoke it.
               
              Example
              Speak Language is defined with the following languages: English, German, Russian
              Craft (Roman) is the roman alphabet
              Craft (Cyrillic) is the cyrillic alphabet
               
              I am literate so I start the game with English and Craft(Roman alphabet). If I want to learn German I buy speak language and choose German. Since German uses the same alphabet, Craft(Roman), I can also write German (yes I know there are a couple of special characters but that's trivial). However, if I go to learn Russian, I would need to buy speak language and choose Russian but I would also have to learn Craft(Cyrillic) in order to write it in anything but the roman alphabet, which can be done pretty easily. However, since Cyrillic is the default alphabet for Russian, I would have a hard time communicating with the average russian by writing in the roman alphabet.
               
              The trick is to be sure that Craft(alphabet) is cross class for barbarians. 1 rank in Craft(alphabet) is enough since you only need a DC 10 check to write legibly (can't take 10 or 20), and even then the average reader will make their roll. You can always start over if your penmanship is bad.    =8)
               
              Personally, I don't think I would include "legibility tests" in my game. I would simply require 1 rank of Craft(alphabet) in order to be literate and leave it at that. This solution solves the literacy and the alphabet problem in a relatively realistic fashon.
               
              mudpyr8
              No, no, I really AM an applied linguist.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Arcady
              Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: LANGUAGE Limits

              *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* Well...


              It's more like this:

              If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
              with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
              they write it out with alphabet B.

              It's still one language.

              By the rules it should stay one language.


              --- mocha@... wrote:
              > My understanding of KoK is that they have one skill - Speak
              >
              > Languages - and yet they use this to track not only the
              > spoken
              > languages but the written languages of the characters.
              > When the
              > languages are you speak are tied to the languages you can
              > write in a
              > one-to-one fashion (meaning for every spoken language
              > there's only
              > one written language and if you know one you know the
              > other) then
              > this is appropriate.  Since campaigns like KoK (and
              > probably FR or
              > other heavilky region-specific campaigns) emphasize the
              > difference
              > between writing and reading I think it makes sense to split
              > them out
              > as two different skills.  This maximizes the flexibility
              > even if it
              > adds a skill that doesn't technically exist.  Whichever
              > classes have
              > Speak Languages as a class skill would also have Write
              > Alphabet as a
              > class skill.  I suppose one could construe a case where
              > Sages should
              > have Write Alphabet as a class-skill but not Speak
              > Languages, since I
              > think of them as mostly dealing in dead languages (like
              > Accadian or
              > the other languages on the Rosetta stone).
              >
              > I think this functionality will tie in a great deal with
              > the whole
              > regional upgrade.  This will require some heavy pondering
              > to make
              > sure we make it flexible enough to handle as many
              > region-specific
              > issues and language type issues as possible.  When the time
              > comes
              > that I'm ready to turn my attention to this I'll run my
              > ideas past
              > you to see what you think. :)
              >
              > -Bryan
              >
              > -Bryan
              > I think that even if a skill like "Write Alphabet" isn't
              > actually
              > listed anywhere
              > --- In pcgen@y..., maggard@a... wrote:
              > > Remember we are working on two front now. 
              > >
              > > First a work around to allow character sheets to print
              > out with the
              > > correct language and alphabet information.  The
              > characters created
              > > will have to be given a free skill in Write Alphabet to
              > represent
              > > literacy in their known language(s).  It also allows a DM
              > to split
              > > the two if they feel Kalamar is less literate than WoG
              > and FR.
              > >
              > > Second, a complete re-work of the langauge skill is
              > > underconsideration for post 2.0 release.  This will take
              > into
              > > consideration the relationship between languages and
              > alphabets. 
              > > Nevertheless, realize you can write any language in any
              > alphabet,
              > it
              > > just makes translation a bit tricky.  )  This would
              > require a
              > heafty
              > > challenge rating.  You should see my wife try to read my
              > attempts
              > to
              > > spell Vietnamise.  And this is with similar alphabets
              > (English/French
              > >
              > > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
              > > > The real problem here is that in Kalamar 'write
              > alphabet' does
              > not
              > > exist as
              > > > a skill.
              > > >
              > > > You have a language, and an alphabet you use for that
              > language.
              > > > They are one skill, not two.
              > > >
              > > > When you make it a seperate skill you upset the point
              > costs
              > > involved.
              > > >
              > > > This needs a modification to how languages work. It
              > needs the
              > > ability for a
              > > > campaign to 'just use the default alphabet' or to let
              > you 'choose
              > > and
              > > > alphabet'.
              > > >
              > > > It then needs something which lists out which alphabets
              > are
              > > available for
              > > > which languages. And which of these choices work for
              > what region
              > > and ethnic
              > > > group the PC comes from.
              > > >
              > > >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >

              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


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            • Vance
              ... I ve been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in. Just list the Languages as: Dejy (A) Dejy (B) Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet,
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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                >
                >If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it out
                >with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location B,
                >they write it out with alphabet B.
                >
                >It's still one language.
                >
                >By the rules it should stay one language.
                I've been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in.

                Just list the Languages as:
                Dejy (A)
                Dejy (B)

                Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet, just connect it to the
                root language. It might show up twice in your language skills, but now you
                can write both Alphabets.
                VR
              • Arcady
                This could work. You d have about 10 versions of every language... but it could work. You do still need the LANGAUTO:CHOOSE feature. and the regional and
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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                  This could work.

                  You'd have about 10 versions of every language... but it
                  could work.

                  You do still need the LANGAUTO:CHOOSE feature.
                  and the regional and ethnic features.

                  --- Vance <clubvance@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >If you learn to speak Dejy in location A, they write it
                  > out
                  > >with alpabet A. But if you learn to speak it in location
                  > B,
                  > >they write it out with alphabet B.
                  > >
                  > >It's still one language.
                  > >
                  > >By the rules it should stay one language.
                  > I've been listening to this and had to put my 2cp in.
                  >
                  > Just list the Languages as:
                  > Dejy (A)
                  > Dejy (B)
                  >
                  > Since you have to spend a skill to buy the Alphabet, just
                  > connect it to the
                  > root language. It might show up twice in your language
                  > skills, but now you
                  > can write both Alphabets.
                  > VR
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


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                • nezzir@home.com
                  I m new to the list. I don t know if this has been covered yet: I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor check penalty as well as +3
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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                    I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:

                    I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor check
                    penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex modifier to +3.

                    Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.

                    There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes that if
                    you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes to be
                    calculated (armor is one of the changes).

                    I'm running the 1.4a beta

                    I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D Players
                    Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                  • maggard@aztec.asu.edu
                    Yet in the same region the example can occur. The Dejy clan based. Also the Merchant language is written in many alphabets. The flexibility of having two
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 4, 2001
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                      Yet in the same region the example can occur. The Dejy clan based.
                      Also the Merchant language is written in many alphabets. The
                      flexibility of having two skills and using the FREE Write Alphabet:
                      CHOOSE if you tie Literacy to Speak Language is could work.

                      --- In pcgen@y..., Lonestar <Lonestar@l...> wrote:
                      > a> Sometimes it's not simple though.
                      >
                      > a> In Kalamar...
                      >
                      > a> The Dejy in one place might use the Kalamar alphabet.
                      > a> In other they might use an elven alphabet.
                      >
                      > a> But in both places they're still speaking dejy.
                      >
                      > a> (hypothetical examples not actual ones).
                      >
                      > hmmmm, that's where region support kicks in. just define standard
                      > language and alphabet for each region.....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@l...
                    • mocha@mcs.net
                      ... check ... modifier to +3. ... Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a character and this all works correctly. Do you have
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
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                        --- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                        > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                        >
                        > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                        check
                        > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                        modifier to +3.
                        >
                        > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.

                        Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                        character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                        equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                        >
                        > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                        that if
                        > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                        to be
                        > calculated (armor is one of the changes).

                        Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                        shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                        effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                        file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                        follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                        effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.

                        -Bryan


                        >
                        > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                        >
                        > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                        Players
                        > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.

                        Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                        created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                        and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                        what armor proficiencies you have).

                        -Bryan
                      • nezzir@home.com
                        ... I am proficient with light armor. Here s what I have equipped: Longbow (composite) Musical instrument,common (small) Entertainer (Clothing) Arrows (20)
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
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                          At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                          >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                          > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                          > >
                          > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                          >check
                          > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                          >modifier to +3.
                          > >
                          > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                          >
                          >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                          >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                          >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                          I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                          Longbow (composite)
                          Musical instrument,common (small)
                          Entertainer (Clothing)
                          Arrows (20)
                          Backpack
                          (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)

                          > >
                          > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                          >that if
                          > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                          >to be
                          > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                          >
                          >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                          >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                          >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                          >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                          >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                          >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                          >
                          >-Bryan

                          The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                          not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                          but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                          weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some notes.



                          > >
                          > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                          > >
                          > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                          >Players
                          > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                          >
                          >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                          >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                          >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                          >what armor proficiencies you have).
                          >
                          >-Bryan
                          >
                          Half-Elven
                          Bard
                          Level 1
                          Dex = 16

                          Note: New bug -
                          I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                          it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                          minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                          or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                          reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                          the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                          composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.

                          If you would like I can send you the character file.

                          PS - Thanks for responding




                          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                          NezziR,
                          Mark A. Warren
                          -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                          "Tis now the very witching time of night
                          when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                          now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                          quake to look on."

                          William Shakespeare,
                          Hamlet
                        • Franco, Matthew E
                          make sure your chacter isn t carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen adds minuses do to ecumberance as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen
                            adds minuses do to ecumberance

                            as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell book?

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: nezzir@... [mailto:nezzir@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found


                            At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                            >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                            > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                            > >
                            > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                            >check
                            > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                            >modifier to +3.
                            > >
                            > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                            >
                            >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                            >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                            >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?

                            I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                            Longbow (composite)
                            Musical instrument,common (small)
                            Entertainer (Clothing)
                            Arrows (20)
                            Backpack
                            (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)

                            > >
                            > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                            >that if
                            > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                            >to be
                            > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                            >
                            >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                            >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                            >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                            >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                            >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                            >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                            >
                            >-Bryan

                            The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                            not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                            but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                            weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some
                            notes.



                            > >
                            > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                            > >
                            > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                            >Players
                            > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                            >
                            >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                            >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                            >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                            >what armor proficiencies you have).
                            >
                            >-Bryan
                            >
                            Half-Elven
                            Bard
                            Level 1
                            Dex = 16

                            Note: New bug -
                            I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                            it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                            minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                            or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                            reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                            the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                            composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.

                            If you would like I can send you the character file.

                            PS - Thanks for responding




                            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                            NezziR,
                            Mark A. Warren
                            -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                            "Tis now the very witching time of night
                            when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                            now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                            quake to look on."

                            William Shakespeare,
                            Hamlet



                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • nezzir@home.com
                            I am lightly loaded. I have spells in my spell book. I probably need to start it from scratch... ... NezziR, Mark A. Warren
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am lightly loaded.
                              I have spells in my spell book.

                              I probably need to start it from scratch...

                              At 01:23 PM 6/6/2001 -0400, you wrote:
                              >make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium load pcgen
                              >adds minuses do to ecumberance
                              >
                              >as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell book?
                              >
                              >-----Original Message-----
                              >From: nezzir@... [mailto:nezzir@...]
                              >Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                              >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                              >
                              >
                              >At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                              > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                              > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                              > > >
                              > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                              > >check
                              > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                              > >modifier to +3.
                              > > >
                              > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                              > >
                              > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                              > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                              > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                              >
                              >I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                              >Longbow (composite)
                              >Musical instrument,common (small)
                              >Entertainer (Clothing)
                              >Arrows (20)
                              >Backpack
                              >(Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                              > >that if
                              > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                              > >to be
                              > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                              > >
                              > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                              > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                              > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                              > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                              > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                              > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                              > >
                              > >-Bryan
                              >
                              >The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                              >not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                              >but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                              >weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some
                              >notes.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                              > > >
                              > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                              > >Players
                              > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                              > >
                              > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                              > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                              > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                              > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                              > >
                              > >-Bryan
                              > >
                              >Half-Elven
                              >Bard
                              >Level 1
                              >Dex = 16
                              >
                              >Note: New bug -
                              >I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                              >it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                              >minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                              >or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                              >reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                              >the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                              >composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.
                              >
                              >If you would like I can send you the character file.
                              >
                              >PS - Thanks for responding
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >NezziR,
                              >Mark A. Warren
                              >-=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                              >
                              >"Tis now the very witching time of night
                              >when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                              >now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                              >quake to look on."
                              >
                              >William Shakespeare,
                              >Hamlet
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                              NezziR,
                              Mark A. Warren
                              -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                              "Tis now the very witching time of night
                              when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                              now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                              quake to look on."

                              William Shakespeare,
                              Hamlet
                            • mocha@mcs.net
                              And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at level 5 you do not get
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not
                                retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at
                                level 5 you do not get the bonus skill points you would have had if
                                you had started out with an INT 12. I think PCGen behaves correctly
                                with this in mind.

                                -Bryan

                                --- In pcgen@y..., "Franco, Matthew E" <francom@p...> wrote:
                                > make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium
                                load pcgen
                                > adds minuses do to ecumberance
                                >
                                > as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell
                                book?
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: nezzir@h... [mailto:nezzir@h...]
                                > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                                > To: pcgen@y...
                                > Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                                >
                                >
                                > At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                                > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                                > > >
                                > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                                > >check
                                > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                                > >modifier to +3.
                                > > >
                                > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                                > >
                                > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created
                                a
                                > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                                > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                                >
                                > I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                                > Longbow (composite)
                                > Musical instrument,common (small)
                                > Entertainer (Clothing)
                                > Arrows (20)
                                > Backpack
                                > (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                                >
                                > > >
                                > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some
                                changes
                                > >that if
                                > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the
                                changes
                                > >to be
                                > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                                > >
                                > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                                > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                                > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                                > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                                > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                                > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                                > >
                                > >-Bryan
                                >
                                > The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and
                                it did
                                > not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other
                                things
                                > but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new
                                campaign this
                                > weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take
                                some
                                > notes.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                                > > >
                                > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                                > >Players
                                > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                                > >
                                > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                                > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                                > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that
                                affects
                                > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                                > >
                                > >-Bryan
                                > >
                                > Half-Elven
                                > Bard
                                > Level 1
                                > Dex = 16
                                >
                                > Note: New bug -
                                > I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to
                                test
                                > it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack
                                bonus
                                > minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any
                                skill
                                > or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest
                                of the
                                > reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I
                                met all
                                > the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in
                                the
                                > composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no
                                dice.
                                >
                                > If you would like I can send you the character file.
                                >
                                > PS - Thanks for responding
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                > NezziR,
                                > Mark A. Warren
                                > -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                                >
                                > "Tis now the very witching time of night
                                > when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this
                                world,
                                > now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day
                                would
                                > quake to look on."
                                >
                                > William Shakespeare,
                                > Hamlet
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Vance
                                You might check to see if your weight carried is in the light category or the medium category as weight also affects your Max Dex and Armor Check Penalty.
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 6, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You might check to see if your weight carried is in the "light" category or
                                  the "medium" category as weight also affects your Max Dex and Armor Check
                                  Penalty.
                                  VR



                                  >At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                  > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                                  > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                                  > >check
                                  > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                                  > >modifier to +3.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                                  > >
                                  > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created a
                                  > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                                  > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                                  >
                                  >I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                                  >Longbow (composite)
                                  >Musical instrument,common (small)
                                  >Entertainer (Clothing)
                                  >Arrows (20)
                                  >Backpack
                                  >(Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                                  >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some changes
                                  > >that if
                                  > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the changes
                                  > >to be
                                  > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                                  > >
                                  > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                                  > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                                  > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                                  > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                                  > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                                  > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                                  > >
                                  > >-Bryan
                                  >
                                  >The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and it did
                                  >not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other things
                                  >but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new campaign this
                                  >weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take some notes.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                                  > >Players
                                  > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                                  > >
                                  > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                                  > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                                  > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that affects
                                  > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                                  > >
                                  > >-Bryan
                                  > >
                                  >Half-Elven
                                  >Bard
                                  >Level 1
                                  >Dex = 16
                                  >
                                  >Note: New bug -
                                  >I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to test
                                  >it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack bonus
                                  >minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any skill
                                  >or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest of the
                                  >reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I met all
                                  >the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in the
                                  >composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no dice.
                                  >
                                  >If you would like I can send you the character file.
                                  >
                                  >PS - Thanks for responding
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >NezziR,
                                  >Mark A. Warren
                                  >-=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                                  >
                                  >"Tis now the very witching time of night
                                  >when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                                  >now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                                  >quake to look on."
                                  >
                                  >William Shakespeare,
                                  >Hamlet
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • nezzir@home.com
                                  FYI - You were right - it was weight. I was removing the leather and it was taking me under the limit. When I bought it back it carried was not checked so
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 7, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    FYI - You were right - it was weight. I was removing the leather and it
                                    was taking me under the limit. When I bought it back it "carried" was not
                                    checked so the weight didn't change. It looked like the leather itself was
                                    giving me the penalty...

                                    Sorry for the confusion.

                                    At 08:59 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                    >And note that it has been an official ruling that INT changes do not
                                    >retroactively affect skill points. If you go from INT 11 to 12 at
                                    >level 5 you do not get the bonus skill points you would have had if
                                    >you had started out with an INT 12. I think PCGen behaves correctly
                                    >with this in mind.
                                    >
                                    >-Bryan
                                    >
                                    >--- In pcgen@y..., "Franco, Matthew E" <francom@p...> wrote:
                                    > > make sure your chacter isn't carrying to much if you have medium
                                    >load pcgen
                                    > > adds minuses do to ecumberance
                                    > >
                                    > > as for trying for arcane archer did you put spells into your spell
                                    >book?
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: nezzir@h... [mailto:nezzir@h...]
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:45 PM
                                    > > To: pcgen@y...
                                    > > Subject: Re: [pcgen]Minor Bug Found
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > At 02:42 PM 6/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                    > > >--- In pcgen@y..., "nezzir@h..." <nezzir@h...> wrote:
                                    > > > > I'm new to the list. I don't know if this has been covered yet:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I found that if you equip leather armor, it gives you a -3 armor
                                    > > >check
                                    > > > > penalty as well as +3 to your armor. It also limits your dex
                                    > > >modifier to +3.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Should be -0 armor check, +2 AC, +8 max dex.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Actually, it should be +6 max dex... +8 is padded. I just created
                                    >a
                                    > > >character and this all works correctly. Do you have anything else
                                    > > >equipped? Is your character proficient with Light armor?
                                    > >
                                    > > I am proficient with light armor. Here's what I have equipped:
                                    > > Longbow (composite)
                                    > > Musical instrument,common (small)
                                    > > Entertainer (Clothing)
                                    > > Arrows (20)
                                    > > Backpack
                                    > > (Note: The leather is now unequipped to get around the error)
                                    > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > There also seems to be some refresh issues. There are some
                                    >changes
                                    > > >that if
                                    > > > > you make them you must save, exit, and come back in for the
                                    >changes
                                    > > >to be
                                    > > > > calculated (armor is one of the changes).
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Really? Hm - everything should be recalculated on the fly, so you
                                    > > >shouldn't ever have to quit and come back in to see a change take
                                    > > >effect. If you continue having problems I'd like to see your pcg
                                    > > >file and if you could give me an exact series of steps that I could
                                    > > >follow to see something that you change and how it doesn't take
                                    > > >effect until the next time you launch PCGen, I'd appreciate it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >-Bryan
                                    > >
                                    > > The biggest problem I've seen here is I changed my intelligence and
                                    >it did
                                    > > not update the skill modifiers (it still hasn't). There are other
                                    >things
                                    > > but I don't remember what they were. We are starting a new
                                    >campaign this
                                    > > weekend and will probably be using the generator a lot. I'll take
                                    >some
                                    > > notes.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'm running the 1.4a beta
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I created a character using the D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, D&D
                                    > > >Players
                                    > > > > Handbook, and Forgotten Realms rules set.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Thanks for the above info! It's also nice to know what race you
                                    > > >created and what relevant stats you have (dex in the case of armor
                                    > > >and max dex type issues) and what class you have (since that
                                    >affects
                                    > > >what armor proficiencies you have).
                                    > > >
                                    > > >-Bryan
                                    > > >
                                    > > Half-Elven
                                    > > Bard
                                    > > Level 1
                                    > > Dex = 16
                                    > >
                                    > > Note: New bug -
                                    > > I'm working this character toward the "Arcane Archer" class. So to
                                    >test
                                    > > it, I bumped the Bard up to level 8 to get him to the +6 attack
                                    >bonus
                                    > > minimum req. The first thing I noticed was that it did not add any
                                    >skill
                                    > > or feat points. Then (after I juggled it a bit and taking the rest
                                    >of the
                                    > > reqs) I still could not take the class - it stayed starred out. I
                                    >met all
                                    > > the reqs. I thought maybe it was the fact that I was proficient in
                                    >the
                                    > > composite longbow instead of the longbow so I updated it - still no
                                    >dice.
                                    > >
                                    > > If you would like I can send you the character file.
                                    > >
                                    > > PS - Thanks for responding
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > > NezziR,
                                    > > Mark A. Warren
                                    > > -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-
                                    > >
                                    > > "Tis now the very witching time of night
                                    > > when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this
                                    >world,
                                    > > now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day
                                    >would
                                    > > quake to look on."
                                    > >
                                    > > William Shakespeare,
                                    > > Hamlet
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    >pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                    NezziR,
                                    Mark A. Warren
                                    -=*-----------------------------------------------------*=-

                                    "Tis now the very witching time of night
                                    when churchyards yawn and hell itself breaths out contagion to this world,
                                    now could I drink hot blood and do such bitter business as the day would
                                    quake to look on."

                                    William Shakespeare,
                                    Hamlet
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