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What if Wizards doesn't approve?

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  • Avi
    Hey, I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits (which is fine). But what if they don t plan on ever approving the expansions, etc? My
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 28, 2002
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      Hey,
      I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits
      (which is fine). But what if they don't plan on ever approving the
      expansions, etc? My friend bought e-tools said he didnt like it, i
      recently introduced him to pcgen and he loves it. Wizards obviously
      knows this - and honestly its all their fault for making the program
      so restrictive and limited.
      So what is the plan for PCGEN if wizards decides to sit on the hind
      legs or just flat out not approve any of the expansion material.
      Obviously by doing this they in effect make their product come out on
      top and thusly shut down pcgen (no matter how much better pcgen is to
      e-tools, if people cant incorporate the new source material they will
      not use it)
      -Avi
    • Kent at home
      I think you are putting the cart before the horse by asking this. My impression is that the more we work in good faith, the more confident the programmers are
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 28, 2002
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        I think you are putting the cart before the horse by asking this. My
        impression is that the more we work in good faith, the more confident the
        programmers are that Wizards will find it useful to permit the features
        restored.

        Kent

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Avi
        Subject: [pcgen] What if Wizards doesn't approve?
      • Stuart Updegrave
        Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this stage of the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate with the PCGen team for
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 28, 2002
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          Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this stage of
          the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate with
          the PCGen team for re-inclusion of non-SRD WotC material once PCGen
          achieved OGL/d20 compliance. Now that this has occurred, these
          negotiations are proceeding, as Merton et. al. have repeatedly stated.
          It behooves us at present time to assume that WotC is negotiating in
          good faith.

          Please halt such unwarranted and unproductive speculation. It has the
          potential to alienate WotC and cause them to take exactly the action
          we're all hoping they avoid.

          cheers,
          ~stuart

          * PCGen Resident Curmudgeon


          > From: Avi [mailto:alazar_076@...]
          >
          > Hey,
          > I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits
          > (which is fine). But what if they don't plan on ever approving the
          > expansions, etc? My friend bought e-tools said he didnt like it, i

          > recently introduced him to pcgen and he loves it. Wizards obviously

          > knows this - and honestly its all their fault for making the program

          > so restrictive and limited.
          > So what is the plan for PCGEN if wizards decides to sit on the hind
          > legs or just flat out not approve any of the expansion material.
          > Obviously by doing this they in effect make their product come out
          on
          > top and thusly shut down pcgen (no matter how much better pcgen is
          to
          > e-tools, if people cant incorporate the new source material they
          will
          > not use it)
          > -Avi
        • bd_92
          if they don t then the old saying goes: shit happens, cope. The world will not come to an end just because you can t build your fighter from Sword and Fist or
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 28, 2002
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            if they don't then the old saying goes: shit happens, cope. The
            world will not come to an end just because you can't build your
            fighter from Sword and Fist or your caster from Tome and Blood.

            there are plenty of other books out there that can more than make up
            for the loss in the splat books 10 fold...

            if it happens it happens. if it doesn't it doesn't. Don't worry
            about it till something happens...


            --- In pcgen@y..., "Stuart Updegrave" <stuart@m...> wrote:
            >
            > Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this
            stage of
            > the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate with
            > the PCGen team for re-inclusion of non-SRD WotC material once PCGen
            > achieved OGL/d20 compliance. Now that this has occurred, these
            > negotiations are proceeding, as Merton et. al. have repeatedly
            stated.
            > It behooves us at present time to assume that WotC is negotiating
            in
            > good faith.
            >
            > Please halt such unwarranted and unproductive speculation. It has
            the
            > potential to alienate WotC and cause them to take exactly the
            action
            > we're all hoping they avoid.
            >
            > cheers,
            > ~stuart
            >
            > * PCGen Resident Curmudgeon
            >
            >
            > > From: Avi [mailto:alazar_076@y...]
            > >
            > > Hey,
            > > I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits
            > > (which is fine). But what if they don't plan on ever approving
            the
            > > expansions, etc? My friend bought e-tools said he didnt like
            it, i
            >
            > > recently introduced him to pcgen and he loves it. Wizards
            obviously
            >
            > > knows this - and honestly its all their fault for making the
            program
            >
            > > so restrictive and limited.
            > > So what is the plan for PCGEN if wizards decides to sit on the
            hind
            > > legs or just flat out not approve any of the expansion
            material.
            > > Obviously by doing this they in effect make their product come
            out
            > on
            > > top and thusly shut down pcgen (no matter how much better pcgen
            is
            > to
            > > e-tools, if people cant incorporate the new source material they
            > will
            > > not use it)
            > > -Avi
          • Kevin Brown
            Even if Wizards doesn t approve of PCGen distributing the files for the Non-SRD books doesn t mean you can t put them into your copy of PCGen for your own
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 28, 2002
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              Even if Wizards doesn't approve of PCGen distributing the files for the Non-SRD
              books doesn't mean you can't put them into your copy of PCGen for your own
              personal use. That is Fair Use of their Copyrighted materials (since you did
              pay for the books to be able to use them).

              > if they don't then the old saying goes: shit happens, cope. The
              > world will not come to an end just because you can't build your
              > fighter from Sword and Fist or your caster from Tome and Blood.
              >
              > there are plenty of other books out there that can more than make up
              > for the loss in the splat books 10 fold...
              >
              > if it happens it happens. if it doesn't it doesn't. Don't worry
              > about it till something happens...

              > > Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this
              > stage of
              > > the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate with
              > > the PCGen team for re-inclusion of non-SRD WotC material once PCGen
              > > achieved OGL/d20 compliance. Now that this has occurred, these
              > > negotiations are proceeding, as Merton et. al. have repeatedly
              > stated.
              > > It behooves us at present time to assume that WotC is negotiating
              > in
              > > good faith.
              > >
              > > Please halt such unwarranted and unproductive speculation. It has
              > the
              > > potential to alienate WotC and cause them to take exactly the
              > action
              > > we're all hoping they avoid.

              > > > Hey,
              > > > I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits
              > > > (which is fine). But what if they don't plan on ever approving
              > the
              > > > expansions, etc? My friend bought e-tools said he didnt like
              > it, i
              > >
              > > > recently introduced him to pcgen and he loves it. Wizards
              > obviously
              > >
              > > > knows this - and honestly its all their fault for making the
              > program
              > >
              > > > so restrictive and limited.
              > > > So what is the plan for PCGEN if wizards decides to sit on the
              > hind
              > > > legs or just flat out not approve any of the expansion
              > material.
              > > > Obviously by doing this they in effect make their product come
              > out
              > > on
              > > > top and thusly shut down pcgen (no matter how much better pcgen
              > is
              > > to
              > > > e-tools, if people cant incorporate the new source material they
              > > will
              > > > not use it)
            • Bolie
              ... of ... stated. ... the ... I certainly hope that WotC wouldn t act childishly and refuse to allow non-SRD material just because users (their own customers)
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 30, 2002
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                --- In pcgen@y..., "Stuart Updegrave" <stuart@m...> wrote:
                >
                > Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this stage
                of
                > the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate with
                > the PCGen team for re-inclusion of non-SRD WotC material once PCGen
                > achieved OGL/d20 compliance. Now that this has occurred, these
                > negotiations are proceeding, as Merton et. al. have repeatedly
                stated.
                > It behooves us at present time to assume that WotC is negotiating in
                > good faith.
                >
                > Please halt such unwarranted and unproductive speculation. It has
                the
                > potential to alienate WotC and cause them to take exactly the action
                > we're all hoping they avoid.

                I certainly hope that WotC wouldn't act childishly and refuse to
                allow non-SRD material just because users (their own customers) were
                worried that they wouldn't. I know that, as a customer of WotC, I
                would very much like to use PCGen and my splatbooks and I find that
                PCGen (with all the data files) helps me to better use my books, thus
                making more willing to buy more. I also have found that seeing feat
                names, spells, etc... in PCGen directly led me to buying several WotC
                books (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and some of the splat books).

                I certainly hope that WotC is negotiating in good faith and I also
                hope that they do read these boards and they do see that customers
                want non-SRD data in PCGen. They need to know how their customers
                feel. Again, I can only hope that customer feedback doesn't cause
                them to react childishly and emotionally.

                (I really don't think it would, but that's the implication of this
                response.)

                Bolie IV
              • Stuart Updegrave
                ... You misunderstood me. My intention was that we should not be planning now what to do if WotC decides not to allow non-SRD content. If I worked for WotC, I
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 30, 2002
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                  > From: Bolie [mailto:bolie@...]
                  > [snip]
                  > I certainly hope that WotC is negotiating in good faith and I also
                  > hope that they do read these boards and they do see that customers
                  > want non-SRD data in PCGen. They need to know how their customers
                  > feel. Again, I can only hope that customer feedback doesn't cause
                  > them to react childishly and emotionally.
                  >
                  > (I really don't think it would, but that's the implication of this
                  > response.)

                  You misunderstood me. My intention was that we should not be planning
                  now what to do if WotC decides not to allow non-SRD content.

                  If I worked for WotC, I would see a substantive difference between
                  "see[ing]that customers want non-SRD data in PCGen" and seeing
                  discussion of contingency. The latter could lead me to believe that my
                  efforts were unwarranted and unappreciated.
                • Martijn Verburg (DSLWN)
                  Hi, I ll reply on behalf of the masters ... This is correct. We ve all been asked by Bryan to send nice thank you letters to Anthony V @ WoTC for helping us
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 30, 2002
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                    Hi, I'll reply on behalf of the masters



                    >>You misunderstood me. My intention was that we should not be planning
                    >>now what to do if WotC decides not to allow non-SRD content.

                    >>If I worked for WotC, I would see a substantive difference between
                    >>"see[ing]that customers want non-SRD data in PCGen" and seeing
                    >>discussion of contingency. The latter could lead me to believe that my
                    >>efforts were unwarranted and unappreciated.



                    This is correct. We've all been asked by Bryan to send nice
                    thank you letters to Anthony V @ WoTC for helping us become compliant.

                    Any mention of you having bought WoTC books because of PCGEN
                    wouldn't go astray either.



                    We're not going to have a contingency plan. We will continue to
                    support D20 and OGL and the multitude of other publishers. Don't

                    Get me wrong we'd love to work with WoTC on this one and have
                    their work represented in PCGEN. But there are also many other

                    Popular publishers that PCGEN will continue to support.



                    Karianna

                    PCGEN Mod





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • aeontrin
                    I typically use PCGen for generating characters for the various RPGA Living campaigns, specifically Living Greyhawk, Living Force, Living Arcanis, and Living
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                      I typically use PCGen for generating characters for the various RPGA
                      Living campaigns, specifically Living Greyhawk, Living Force, Living
                      Arcanis, and Living Dragonstar. I not only generate my own
                      characters, but also NPCs for various module submissions. As
                      the "plenty of other books" are not canon for those campaigns (well,
                      Arcanis and Dragonstar have their 3rd-party supplements that are) and
                      the Builder Books are, you can see where this is very inconvenient
                      for me both as a player and as a writer.

                      From your post, I sense an attitude of "oh, well, WotC does not
                      really want us putting these in here so we are not really going to
                      push that hard for doing it." Please resist that attitude and get as
                      much as you can from WotC. I realize that they are not going to give
                      you everything and that's fine. Worse comes to worse, a user can
                      customize the LST files as necessary. I just want you folks to
                      understand that this issue is more important than your response
                      implies.

                      Will Dover

                      --- In pcgen@y..., "bd_92" <bd_92@y...> wrote:
                      > if they don't then the old saying goes: shit happens, cope. The
                      > world will not come to an end just because you can't build your
                      > fighter from Sword and Fist or your caster from Tome and Blood.
                      >
                      > there are plenty of other books out there that can more than make
                      up
                      > for the loss in the splat books 10 fold...
                      >
                      > if it happens it happens. if it doesn't it doesn't. Don't worry
                      > about it till something happens...
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pcgen@y..., "Stuart Updegrave" <stuart@m...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Speculation and second-guessing will serve us no good at this
                      > stage of
                      > > the game. WotC has previously stated that they would negotiate
                      with
                      > > the PCGen team for re-inclusion of non-SRD WotC material once
                      PCGen
                      > > achieved OGL/d20 compliance. Now that this has occurred, these
                      > > negotiations are proceeding, as Merton et. al. have repeatedly
                      > stated.
                      > > It behooves us at present time to assume that WotC is negotiating
                      > in
                      > > good faith.
                      > >
                      > > Please halt such unwarranted and unproductive speculation. It has
                      > the
                      > > potential to alienate WotC and cause them to take exactly the
                      > action
                      > > we're all hoping they avoid.
                      > >
                      > > cheers,
                      > > ~stuart
                      > >
                      > > * PCGen Resident Curmudgeon
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > From: Avi [mailto:alazar_076@y...]
                      > > >
                      > > > Hey,
                      > > > I know Wizards is a company that is interested in their profits
                      > > > (which is fine). But what if they don't plan on ever approving
                      > the
                      > > > expansions, etc? My friend bought e-tools said he didnt like
                      > it, i
                      > >
                      > > > recently introduced him to pcgen and he loves it. Wizards
                      > obviously
                      > >
                      > > > knows this - and honestly its all their fault for making the
                      > program
                      > >
                      > > > so restrictive and limited.
                      > > > So what is the plan for PCGEN if wizards decides to sit on the
                      > hind
                      > > > legs or just flat out not approve any of the expansion
                      > material.
                      > > > Obviously by doing this they in effect make their product come
                      > out
                      > > on
                      > > > top and thusly shut down pcgen (no matter how much better pcgen
                      > is
                      > > to
                      > > > e-tools, if people cant incorporate the new source material they
                      > > will
                      > > > not use it)
                      > > > -Avi
                    • Thatcher
                      ... RPGA ... Living ... (well, ... and ... as ... give ... While I agree with you about what the loss of all of non-SRD WotC sources would mean to PCGen. I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                        --- In pcgen@y..., "aeontrin" <wdover@a...> wrote:
                        > I typically use PCGen for generating characters for the various
                        RPGA
                        > Living campaigns, specifically Living Greyhawk, Living Force,
                        Living
                        > Arcanis, and Living Dragonstar. I not only generate my own
                        > characters, but also NPCs for various module submissions. As
                        > the "plenty of other books" are not canon for those campaigns
                        (well,
                        > Arcanis and Dragonstar have their 3rd-party supplements that are)
                        and
                        > the Builder Books are, you can see where this is very inconvenient
                        > for me both as a player and as a writer.
                        >
                        > From your post, I sense an attitude of "oh, well, WotC does not
                        > really want us putting these in here so we are not really going to
                        > push that hard for doing it." Please resist that attitude and get
                        as
                        > much as you can from WotC. I realize that they are not going to
                        give
                        > you everything and that's fine. Worse comes to worse, a user can
                        > customize the LST files as necessary. I just want you folks to
                        > understand that this issue is more important than your response
                        > implies.
                        >
                        > Will Dover

                        While I agree with you about what the loss of all of non-SRD WotC
                        sources would mean to PCGen. I have to defend some of the others. I
                        think your taking what they said a bit wrong. It boils down to the
                        fact that only those that are in the negotiations with WotC can
                        really say what is going on. And only they can have a direct effect
                        on the talks.

                        For us we need to be patient and wait. They are not doing this half
                        assed. Their working hard. Pushing for the best results for PCGen.
                        All we can do is send thank you e-mails to Anthony V and various
                        other sundry WotC managers thanking them for the help they have given
                        us up to this point. You do realize that they didn't have to do any
                        of this. They could of sicked their lawyers on us and that would
                        have been the end of PCGen.

                        Going on and on about what ifs is not going to change anything. All
                        it will do is inflame people. So just sit back and chill until we
                        get the final answer from WotC.

                        Knightcrawler
                        LST Howler Monkey
                      • Martijn Verburg (DSLWN)
                        From Karianna (In Moderator Hat) OK, this kind of debate (from both detractors and people who are advocating calm, it s just going to encourage further flame
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                          From Karianna (In Moderator Hat)



                          "OK, this kind of debate (from both detractors and people who are advocating
                          calm, it's just going to encourage further flame wars ;p) is pointless until
                          we get the word from Bryan and Mynex, like I've said before the official
                          stance is that all we are planning for is getting those files back, that's
                          _it_"



                          Please consider this thread closed people 8-)



                          Any Q's please contact me off boards



                          Karianna

                          PCGEN Mod



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Thatcher [mailto:magus_knightcrawler@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 03:06
                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [pcgen] Re: What if Wizards doesn't approve?



                          --- In pcgen@y..., "aeontrin" <wdover@a...> wrote:
                          > I typically use PCGen for generating characters for the various
                          RPGA
                          > Living campaigns, specifically Living Greyhawk, Living Force,
                          Living
                          > Arcanis, and Living Dragonstar. I not only generate my own
                          > characters, but also NPCs for various module submissions. As
                          > the "plenty of other books" are not canon for those campaigns
                          (well,
                          > Arcanis and Dragonstar have their 3rd-party supplements that are)
                          and
                          > the Builder Books are, you can see where this is very inconvenient
                          > for me both as a player and as a writer.
                          >
                          > From your post, I sense an attitude of "oh, well, WotC does not
                          > really want us putting these in here so we are not really going to
                          > push that hard for doing it." Please resist that attitude and get
                          as
                          > much as you can from WotC. I realize that they are not going to
                          give
                          > you everything and that's fine. Worse comes to worse, a user can
                          > customize the LST files as necessary. I just want you folks to
                          > understand that this issue is more important than your response
                          > implies.
                          >
                          > Will Dover

                          While I agree with you about what the loss of all of non-SRD WotC
                          sources would mean to PCGen. I have to defend some of the others. I
                          think your taking what they said a bit wrong. It boils down to the
                          fact that only those that are in the negotiations with WotC can
                          really say what is going on. And only they can have a direct effect
                          on the talks.

                          For us we need to be patient and wait. They are not doing this half
                          assed. Their working hard. Pushing for the best results for PCGen.
                          All we can do is send thank you e-mails to Anthony V and various
                          other sundry WotC managers thanking them for the help they have given
                          us up to this point. You do realize that they didn't have to do any
                          of this. They could of sicked their lawyers on us and that would
                          have been the end of PCGen.

                          Going on and on about what ifs is not going to change anything. All
                          it will do is inflame people. So just sit back and chill until we
                          get the final answer from WotC.

                          Knightcrawler
                          LST Howler Monkey




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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