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Tiefling/Level Adjustment

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  • Daniel Hahn
    (I m trying to re-send this. Sorry for any duplicates) Hello, now that I ve found PCGen, installed it (and even managed to subscribe to this list - hi everyone
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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      (I'm trying to re-send this. Sorry for any duplicates)

      Hello,

      now that I've found PCGen, installed it (and even managed to subscribe
      to this list - hi everyone ;-) I tried to enter my Tiefling character.
      This brought up several issues - both technical and rule-related:

      The rule thingy - which is more important to me right now - has to do
      with the Level Adjustment. Creating a Tiefling character in PCGen gives
      you modifiers, skills and special abilities - but NO hit dice. However
      we have decided (after some discussion) that giving up a level for a
      monster character should give you ALL the benefits of the monster class,
      INCLUDING the monster's default hit dice.
      I realize that this is a tricky question because the manual is somewhat
      less than clear on the whole issue. We found, however, that our rule
      gives you a fair trade-off. Problem is, I found no way to get our rule
      into PCGen -not even by hacking the *lst files. The level adjustment
      property only seems to adjust the XP threshholds, and giving an extra
      Monsterclass level to the character seems to mess up the skill point
      distribution.
      If anybody has any idea how to resolve this, I'd greatly appreciate the
      help ;-)

      On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
      of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
      "overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
      the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched (Tiefling)"
      version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
      modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
      Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...

      Ciao,
      Daniel

      --
      Daniel Hahn (dhahn@...) http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unp2
      PGP key on request. Protect your privacy on the net!

      "Chaos always wins, because it is better organized"
      - T. Pratchett
    • Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla
      ... I believe that Darkvision is a 3rd Ed. rule. Later, ==================== Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla Instructor Institute of Computer Science University of
      Message 2 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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        At 02:04 AM 06/01/02, you wrote:
        >On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
        >of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
        >"overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
        >the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched (Tiefling)"
        >version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
        >modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
        >Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...

        I believe that Darkvision is a 3rd Ed. rule.

        Later,

        ====================
        Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla
        Instructor
        Institute of Computer Science
        University of the Philippines at Los BaƱos

        "Without this playing with fantasy no creative work has ever come to birth.
        The debt we owe to the play of our imagination is incalculable."
        --Psychological Types, Carl Jung
      • Daniel Hahn
        ... I tried putting the HITDICE: in the Tiefling entry, but to no effect (as far as I could see). Or is a .mod entry something different? ... Was this
        Message 3 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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          arcady wrote:

          > make a file with a tiefling.mod entry
          >
          > In that entry put this:
          > HITDICE:num,dice


          I tried putting the HITDICE: in the Tiefling entry, but to no effect (as
          far as I could see). Or is a .mod entry something different?

          > Note however that you have a problem. The stats on page 151 for a Tiefling
          > assume that that monster has one level of Warrior.


          Was this mentioned somewhere in the book? I must have skipped that...
          and our GM has the books right now, so I can't really check ;-)

          > So your rule is not giving it it's monster hit points. It doesn't have
          > any. Your
          > rule is giving it extra bonus hitpoints.


          So it seems. Well, we will re-check the rule. The problem we saw was
          that missing out on one level of HD is a major setback for any character
          when you're just starting out... although it would be easier
          software-wise to give them up ;-)

          Daniel

          --
          Daniel Hahn (dhahn@...) http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unp2
          PGP key on request. Protect your privacy on the net!

          "Chaos always wins, because it is better organized"
          - T. Pratchett
        • Daniel Hahn
          ... We are adapting the original Planescape setting to 3rd ed. rules - although I like the original flavour text for the Tiefling race much better. ... I never
          Message 4 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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            > are you playing in a non forgotten realms setting?


            We are adapting the original Planescape setting to 3rd ed. rules -
            although I like the original flavour text for the Tiefling race much better.

            > I don't have my book handy, but i think that the correct version for
            > the Assimar and Tiefling are both best if used from the Forgotten
            > realms rules set...


            I never checked there PCGen-wise, because we only have the core
            rulebooks from the 3rd ed.

            Daniel

            --
            Daniel Hahn (dhahn@...) http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unp2
            PGP key on request. Protect your privacy on the net!

            "Chaos always wins, because it is better organized"
            - T. Pratchett
          • Dan Young
            ... Well, the lower HP is supposed to offset the advantages gained from the class. Fire resistance, a darkness spell-like ability, int and dex gain, being an
            Message 5 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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              > So it seems. Well, we will re-check the rule. The problem we saw was
              > that missing out on one level of HD is a major setback for any character
              > when you're just starting out... although it would be easier
              > software-wise to give them up ;-)

              Well, the lower HP is supposed to offset the advantages gained from the
              class. Fire resistance, a darkness spell-like ability, int and dex gain,
              being an outsider vs. humanoid, and the envy of everyone else 'cuz yer a
              tiefling and they're not. Heh.

              Dan
            • Tir Gwaith
              ... From: Daniel Hahn To: pcgen Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment ...
              Message 6 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Daniel Hahn" <
                dhahn@...>
                To: "pcgen" <
                pcgen@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:04 PM
                Subject: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment


                > (I'm trying to re-send this. Sorry for any
                duplicates)
                >
                > Hello,
                >
                > now that I've found PCGen,
                installed it (and even managed to subscribe
                > to this list - hi everyone
                ;-) I tried to enter my Tiefling character.
                > This brought up several
                issues - both technical and rule-related:
                >
                > The rule thingy -
                which is more important to me right now - has to do
                > with the Level
                Adjustment. Creating a Tiefling character in PCGen gives
                > you modifiers,
                skills and special abilities - but NO hit dice. However
                > we have decided
                (after some discussion) that giving up a level for a
                > monster character
                should give you ALL the benefits of the monster class,
                > INCLUDING the
                monster's default hit dice.
                 
                Ok, House rule...  Breaking balance, but your game.  And Tiefling don't get default HD to begin with: Template creature... DMG:p.24, first 2 paragraphs.. Read that whole section (1-2 pages before and that whole page and the next I think) before setting this all in stone..
                 

                > I realize that this is a tricky question because the manual is
                somewhat
                > less than clear on the whole issue. We found, however, that our
                rule
                > gives you a fair trade-off. Problem is, I found no way to get our
                rule
                > into PCGen -not even by hacking the *lst files. The level
                adjustment
                > property only seems to adjust the XP threshholds, and giving
                an extra
                > Monsterclass level to the character seems to mess up the skill
                point
                > distribution.
                > If anybody has any idea how to resolve this,
                I'd greatly appreciate the
                > help ;-)
                 
                IF you really want to institute the house rule, do this:
                 
                (for Monster Default On)
                HITDICE:1,8
                BAB:1
                SAVES:2,2,2
                 
                (for Default Off)
                SKILLMULT:1
                MONSTERCLASS:Outsider:1
                 
                Also, you would have to lose one feat, but that can be inconsequential, and isn't reflected in the Statblock anyway since that is done via Default on (from rules in MM, DMG, and Skip Williams in Dragon 278 or something)
                 
                And yes, Level Adjustment is Only supposed to adjust the XP thresholds.  Period.  The Innate spell abilites, resisitance, etc, are like Class abilities... Loss of the extra HP from an extra die, helps offset this and make the character more in balance with the rest of the characters in the party.
                 
                 

                >
                > On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different
                definitions
                > of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version
                will be
                > "overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the
                DMG is
                > the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched
                (Tiefling)"
                > version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the
                resistance
                > modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the
                character
                > Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...

                1) No: Darkvision is a 3ed Rule: They are Outsiders, and so get Darkvision
                (60') be default.
                  If Planetouched has lost that, I need to go back and get
                that back in. That and Aasimar will need to be checked, and Copy paste the lines over to racesa and racest for the single word entries...
                 
                2 places to check this: 1: MM beginning of the book, under
                types... (errata has changed some of this, but not the Vision default), no
                mention of Vision in entry, so they get Darkvision (60').  2: FRCS, where it
                lists them as Race breakdown instead of statblock
                2) I've spent more time on Planetouched (XXX) than the indivudual entries,
                which are residuals because ppl want to refer to them as Aasimar and
                Tiefling (due to coming out of 2ed...)

                Tir Gwaith
                LST Chimp
                MM Race Dragon
                >
                >
                Ciao,
                >           
                Daniel

              • Daniel Hahn
                ... We will re-check the rules on this. We drafted the rules ourselves because the books weren t exactly comprehensive... I see that it will make a big
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                  Tir Gwaith wrote:

                  >
                  > Ok, House rule... Breaking balance, but your game. And Tiefling
                  > don't get default HD to begin with: Template creature... DMG:p.24,
                  > first 2 paragraphs.. Read that whole section (1-2 pages before and
                  > that whole page and the next I think) before setting this all in stone..


                  We will re-check the rules on this. We drafted the rules ourselves
                  because the books weren't exactly comprehensive...
                  I see that it will make a big difference when starting out, but it
                  should get smoothed out at higher levels anyway.

                  > IF you really want to institute the house rule, do this:
                  >
                  > (for Monster Default *On*)
                  > HITDICE:1,8
                  > BAB:1
                  > SAVES:2,2,2
                  >
                  > (for Default *Off*)
                  > SKILLMULT:1
                  > MONSTERCLASS:Outsider:1


                  Thanks, that was what I was looking for ;-)

                  > And yes, Level Adjustment is Only supposed to adjust the XP
                  > thresholds. Period. The Innate spell abilites, resisitance, etc, are
                  > like Class abilities... Loss of the extra HP from an extra die, helps
                  > offset this and make the character more in balance with the rest of
                  > the characters in the party.


                  I didn't want to suggest that the Level Adjustment is broken. It just
                  doesn't comply with our house rule ;-)

                  > 1) *No: Darkvision is a 3ed Rule: They are Outsiders, and so get
                  > Darkvision
                  > (60') be default.* If Planetouched has lost that, I need to go back
                  > and get
                  > that back in. That and Aasimar will need to be checked, and Copy paste
                  > the lines over to racesa and racest for the single word entries...


                  You're right - I hope I didn't cause too much confusion.

                  > 2) I've spent more time on Planetouched (XXX) than the indivudual entries,
                  > which are residuals because ppl want to refer to them as Aasimar and
                  > Tiefling (due to coming out of 2ed...)


                  Which is a good idea, I guess. I took me a while to figure out that a
                  "Tiefling" would be sorted in under "P" ;-)

                  Thanks,

                  Daniel
                • Emily Smirle
                  ... All outsiders get Darkvision (60 ) unless otherwise denied it. -- Beer is the mind-killer. Beer is the little death that brings total oblivion. I will
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                    Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla wrote:

                    > At 02:04 AM 06/01/02, you wrote:
                    >
                    >>On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
                    >>of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
                    >>"overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
                    >>the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched (Tiefling)"
                    >>version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
                    >>modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
                    >>Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...
                    >>
                    >
                    > I believe that Darkvision is a 3rd Ed. rule.

                    All outsiders get Darkvision (60') unless otherwise denied it.

                    --
                    "Beer is the mind-killer. Beer is the little death that brings total
                    oblivion. I will face my beer. I will permit it to pass over me and
                    through me. And when it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to
                    see it's path. When the beer has gone there will be nothing.
                    Only I will remain." - www.goats.com
                  • Arcady
                    The solution to this is to name them differently. Then use the RACENAME tag so that when the character sheet is printed out it just shows Tiefling. That s
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                      The solution to this is to name them differently.

                      Then use the 'RACENAME' tag so that when the character sheet is printed out it
                      just shows Tiefling.

                      That's how I handled races for settings like FR, in case somebody loaded the
                      player's handbook after FR that avoids an overwrite.


                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Emily Smirle [mailto:smirle4498@...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 8:30 AM
                      > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment
                      >
                      >
                      > Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla wrote:
                      >
                      > > At 02:04 AM 06/01/02, you wrote:
                      > >
                      > >>On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
                      > >>of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
                      > >>"overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
                      > >>the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched (Tiefling)"
                      > >>version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
                      > >>modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
                      > >>Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...
                    • Arcady
                      I just copied the Planetouched one over all three of them, renamed the MM one to Tiefling (MM), and kept the level adjustment in on the DMG one. Then CVS d it.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                        I just copied the Planetouched one over all three of them, renamed the MM one to
                        Tiefling (MM), and kept the level adjustment in on the DMG one.

                        Then CVS'd it.

                        There's actually three more copies of the race:
                        one in the realms races, and two in the monster's of faerun.

                        I left these ones alone.


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Emily Smirle [mailto:smirle4498@...]
                        > Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 8:30 AM
                        > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment
                        >
                        >
                        > Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla wrote:
                        >
                        > > At 02:04 AM 06/01/02, you wrote:
                        > >
                        > >>On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
                        > >>of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
                        > >>"overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
                        > >>the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched (Tiefling)"
                        > >>version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
                        > >>modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
                        > >>Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > > I believe that Darkvision is a 3rd Ed. rule.
                        >
                        > All outsiders get Darkvision (60') unless otherwise denied it.
                        >
                        > --
                        > "Beer is the mind-killer. Beer is the little death that brings total
                        > oblivion. I will face my beer. I will permit it to pass over me and
                        > through me. And when it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to
                        > see it's path. When the beer has gone there will be nothing.
                        > Only I will remain." - www.goats.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > PCGen's FAQ: http://pedertest.officeline.no/PCGen
                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Tir Gwaith
                        Umm... Planetouched (Tiefling/Fey ri) and Planetouched (Tiefling/Tanarukk) Those are different... (Half-elf and half-orc). Messed with them, and I would have
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                          Umm... Planetouched (Tiefling/Fey'ri) and Planetouched (Tiefling/Tanarukk)
                          Those are different... (Half-elf and half-orc). Messed with them, and I
                          would have been a little ticked..

                          DMG races will change soon... Not sure how. I'd like to link the DMG over
                          to the MM races via PCC link, and then do the .MOD for those races that the
                          DMG has a .MOD for. However, since the DMG is Rank2 and MM Rank3, I don't
                          think that will work.

                          The DMG races are from one page of Stat ajustments meant to help DMs make
                          high level NPCs of those races quickly by hand. Since PCGen can create ALL
                          the backwork for the DM, I don't see why we need the truncated stuff...

                          Oh - and there is RACENAME in the Planetouched (Aasimar) and Planetouched
                          (Teifling) to change them to Aasimar and Tiefling, respectively.... that
                          only effects the Csheet. At least there WAS RACENAME in them... If we are
                          going to put (MM) and such after some of them, we need to do that to the
                          RACENAME, too.


                          Tir Gwaith
                          LST Chimp
                          MM Race Dragon
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Arcady" <arcady0@...>
                          To: <pcgen@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 11:17 AM
                          Subject: RE: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment


                          > I just copied the Planetouched one over all three of them, renamed the MM
                          one to
                          > Tiefling (MM), and kept the level adjustment in on the DMG one.
                          >
                          > Then CVS'd it.
                          >
                          > There's actually three more copies of the race:
                          > one in the realms races, and two in the monster's of faerun.
                          >
                          > I left these ones alone.
                          >
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Emily Smirle [mailto:smirle4498@...]
                          > > Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 8:30 AM
                          > > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [pcgen] Tiefling/Level Adjustment
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Leonard Anthony P. Arcilla wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > At 02:04 AM 06/01/02, you wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >>On a technical note, I found that no less than 3 different definitions
                          > > >>of "Tiefling" exist in the data files. Also, the DMG version will be
                          > > >>"overwritten" by the MM version when I load that data, and the DMG is
                          > > >>the only one to have the level adjustment. The "Planetouched
                          (Tiefling)"
                          > > >>version is the only correct one - the DMG version omits the resistance
                          > > >>modifiers and the MM "Tiefling" definition gives the character
                          > > >>Darkvision, which is a 2nd ed. rule...
                          > > >>
                          > > >
                          > > > I believe that Darkvision is a 3rd Ed. rule.
                          > >
                          > > All outsiders get Darkvision (60') unless otherwise denied it.
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > "Beer is the mind-killer. Beer is the little death that brings total
                          > > oblivion. I will face my beer. I will permit it to pass over me and
                          > > through me. And when it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to
                          > > see it's path. When the beer has gone there will be nothing.
                          > > Only I will remain." - www.goats.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > > PCGen's FAQ: http://pedertest.officeline.no/PCGen
                          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > PCGen's FAQ: http://pedertest.officeline.no/PCGen
                          > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Arcady
                          You wouldn t want the RACENAME tage to have Tiefling (MM). Just Tiefling. The whole point of that tag is to avoid the issue of having to have funky names show
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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                            You wouldn't want the RACENAME tage to have Tiefling (MM).
                            Just Tiefling.

                            The whole point of that tag is to avoid the issue of having to have funky names
                            show up a character sheet because otherwise PCGen would have been confused.


                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > Oh - and there is RACENAME in the Planetouched (Aasimar) and Planetouched
                            > (Teifling) to change them to Aasimar and Tiefling, respectively.... that
                            > only effects the Csheet. At least there WAS RACENAME in them... If we are
                            > going to put (MM) and such after some of them, we need to do that to the
                            > RACENAME, too.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > I just copied the Planetouched one over all three of them, renamed the MM
                            > one to
                            > > Tiefling (MM), and kept the level adjustment in on the DMG one.
                            > >
                            > > Then CVS'd it.
                            > >
                            > > There's actually three more copies of the race:
                            > > one in the realms races, and two in the monster's of faerun.
                            > >
                            > > I left these ones alone.
                            > >
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