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RE: [pcgen] Re: Psionics Handbook

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  • David Cortijo
    Let s just say I have a knack for knowing what might be needed before it s needed. Hence the reason for the FR classes being half-done already - saves work
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 28, 2001
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      Let's just say I have a knack for knowing what might be needed before it's needed.  Hence the reason for the FR classes being half-done already - saves work for later.  Constant access to Dragon Magazines (281 was most helpful in this area) as well as pre-release information from different sites lets people get a very good idea of what's necessary for the system.  Some people have known for months that this is how Psionics would be operating, and enough "hints" about it make it clear as to what assumptions can and can't be made about a system.
       
      Along the same lines, features 124 and 125 are easy enough to test - I'll try to do some testing later tonight to make sure they work as is.  The feature request will stay if I can't get them working (124 will work unless magic types are hard-coded, and 125 might work).  A side suggestion I have is to be able to implement the Psion more precisely - for example, to be able to set the keyed ability score, specialty discipline, etcetera with a single specialty selection.  This may require a more complex version of the Specialization code, but I believe it can be done.  Again, the ability to define variables and embed them in other choices should make this a bit easier (I could easily add a specialty selection at level 1 of a Psion that defined two variables - one for the specialty Discipline and one for the keyed ability of the sub-class - which would be sufficient to define the PP formulas, where the extra KNOWN: power is taken from, etc) if/when that feature is implemented.  I thought about implementing Psion sub-classes separately, but that would require a restriction on multi-classing of the various classes that would need to be created.
       
      Oh yeah - as another aside, I was holding off on some of the Dragonlance material because a good amount of it was missing from the website.  However, it has mystically returned, so I will get back to work on that right after I "test" features 124 and 125.
       
      Dave
      -----Original Message-----
      From: john.sussenberger@... [mailto:john.sussenberger@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 1:19 AM
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [pcgen] Re: Psionics Handbook

      Great, lets start building LST files !!!!

      I figured that most of the things were done or on the way.  Sometimes
      its best to dump out everything we know about something to make sure
      it can work.

      As for the ability scores, they are grouped by Discipline, so we can
      either build a chart on the csheet.

      I'm glad the features are already setup.  Was someone in the know
      before the book came out :)

      -John @ home-




      --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
      > OK, time to take a swing at all this.  Gonna go through bit by
      bit... let's
      > see how long this takes.... (time now - 11:45pm).
      >
      > The attack/defense modes aren't necessary to implement as anything
      more than
      > a special ability according to my understanding.  Since I don't
      know of any
      > stastical effect of the combat modes on the csheet, the modes can
      just be
      > listed under the Special Abilities tab under Combat Modes.  If
      characters
      > need to have the cost of each attack/defense mode on the sheet, the
      best way
      > to do it is to program an HTML chart on a character sheet, and use
      that
      > sheet for Psionic characters (I've already found a sheet online that
      > assembles all the compartive costs, benefits, and drawbacks for
      using a
      > specific attack/defense mode that can be easily copied and
      integrated -
      > assuming one doesn't exist in the book already).        -       
      Already
      > possible
      >
      > Psions can be handled as Specialized Wizards - including a
      BONUS:SPELL tag
      > to gain the bonus known power in the specialty (assuming that both
      the
      > proposed BONUS:SPELL tag is done and that you can set it to match
      the
      > specialized "school").        -        Already accounted for by
      Feature
      > Request # 130
      >
      > Power points can likely be handled with a defined variable tag (see
      feature
      > request 126).  A BONUS: tag with an embedded variable could allow
      Power
      > Point pools to stack as the character gains levels in various
      Manifesting
      > classes.        -        Already accounted for by Feature Request #
      126
      >
      > Sorcerers are bound to the level a slot is gained at for a known
      spell (but
      > then, they don't have anything along the lines of power points
      either....).
      > My workaround for this with Psionics would be to allow a "power"
      selection
      > that is equivalent to a known power of a lower level.  For example,
      the end
      > of the 5th level Known Power selection list would say Level 0
      Power, Level 1
      > Power, and so on - "moving" the power selection to a lower level. 
      Apart
      > from that, Known Powers can work EXACTLY the way Known Spells
      currently
      > does.        -        Already possible, except for the Lower Level
      selection
      >
      > The DC of powers should be implemented as per the Psionics Handbook.
      > However, keep in mind that you have to crossreference Power Level,
      Ability
      > Bonus (since Psionics rely on all 6 Ability Scores), and a random
      d20
      > roll...  I don't think that much of this can be handled too well
      code-side
      > without creating a ridiculous number of tags for the DCs (whether
      or not you
      > decide that Psionics use a "Take 10" scheme rather than the random
      roll).
      >
      > Skills are easy enough to handle, obviously.
      >
      > Feats like Inner Strength should be easy enough to handle....
      here's how.
      > Set Feats Inner Strength (I) through Inner Strength (X) (i.e. 1-
      10).  Each
      > feat gives a bonus to the PP total as per the number, and has a
      prereq of
      > the previous numbered feat (Inner Strength (III) has a PREFEAT of
      Inner
      > Strength (II) and grants 3 PPs).  Mental Leap can also be handled
      in a
      > similar way - assuming that you also use Feature Request # 126 with
      a
      > VAR:Power Points=3+ type of tag (see the feature request file for
      more info
      > on what I'm talking about).  PCgen should only handle Max PPs -
      current PPs
      > shouldn't matter at all in the course of character creation.
      >
      > Psionic Powers can be handled just like spells with the following
      changes:
      > Change Components to the Display. No need to change the code
      surrounding
      > this - it's a text field.
      > Casting Time becomes Manifestation time - same deal.
      > Schools become Disciplines - again, no need for a code change.
      >
      > Most of the changes needed for Psionics are actually NOT code
      changes, but
      > changes in how the csheet is designed.  In fact, every code change
      needed
      > for the implementation of Psionics was conveniently listed a week
      ago.... ;)
      > You're welcome....
      >
      > Dave (that only took 65 minutes.... :P)
      >
      >
      <SNIP>



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    • mocha@mcs.net
      Thanks John! I ve printed this off to digest it (burp!). How about a little more salt next time? :) I ve got a few other things I m working on, but when I m
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2001
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        Thanks John! I've printed this off to digest it (burp!). How about a
        little more salt next time? :)
        I've got a few other things I'm working on, but when I'm ready to
        work on this stuff I'll be sure to post my questions so that you (or
        anyone else with the book) can respond (I'll pick up the book myself
        in the next few days).

        -Bryan

        --- In pcgen@y..., "Sussenberger, John" <john.sussenberger@l...>
        wrote:
        > Hello,
        >
        > Here is a bunch of information from the PHB..
        >
        > We will need the ability to grant psionic combat modes at specific
        levels
        > (Psions get 5 at first level and learn more as they progress).
        There are 10
        > modes in all. We may want them to be similar to Domain spells or
        something.
        > Having information on their powers, damage and cost is important
        for the
        > character sheet.
        >
        > Psions come in 6 variations, each specializing in a certain
        attribute:
        >
        > Psychomnetabolism aka Egoist Strength
        > Psychoportation aka Nomad Dexterity
        > Psychokinesis aka Savant Constitution
        > Metacreativity aka Shaper Intelligence
        > Clairsentience aka Seer Wisdom
        > Telepathy aka Telepath Charisma
        >
        > Known Powers:
        >
        > A psion or psychic warrior can learn a lower level power in a
        higher level
        > slot (I think this is available to Sorcerer's too)
        >
        > A psion can know a certain number of powers per day. They gain an
        > additional power from their "specialty" or Primary Discipline at
        each
        > psionic power's level (like domain spells). Since these are known
        spells,
        > this needs to be programmed in.
        >
        > Power Points are gained by level AND by attribute.
        >
        > The bonus points vary by the level of the psion. Here is a snippet
        >
        > Ability Score 1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8...
        > 18-19 1 3 5 7
        >
        > See, it progresses much like that.
        >
        > 0 level powers can be manifested a number of times equal to his
        level +3 and
        > thereafter it costs 1 PP to manifest after that.
        >
        >
        > These attributes affect the save DC of the psions powers. Note
        that the
        > save DC by default is d20 + attribute + level of psionic power.
        There is a
        > variant for the DC to be 10 + attribute + level of psionic power.
        This is
        > another important thing, I would suggest supporting both methods (I
        plan now
        > on using the 10 + method, since it is easier to handle.)
        >
        > Psycrystals as similar to Familiars and do approximately the same
        things:
        > Bonus to skill
        > Bonus to save
        >
        > They have personalities, which determines what abilities they
        grant
        > the psion. There is a feat which allows the psycrystal to have
        multiple
        > personalities.
        >
        > Psychic Warrior
        >
        > Similar to the Psion with the following differences:
        >
        > They do not gain the additional known power (similar to Domain
        spells,
        > above). They gain power points, etc.
        >
        >
        > Multiclass Rules
        >
        > A multiclasses Psion/Psychic Warrior pools his power points but his
        known
        > psionic powers list are kept separate.
        >
        >
        >
        > Skillz:
        >
        > There are a few new skills.
        > Autohypnosis WIS Trained only Psion,Psychic Warrior
        exclusive
        > Knowledge (psionics) INT Trained only
        > Psicraft INT Trained only
        > Remote View INT Psion exclusive
        > Stabilize Self CON Trained only Psion,Psychic Warrior
        exclusive
        > Use Psionic Device CHA Trained only Bard,Rogue exclusive
        >
        >
        >
        > Feats:
        >
        > The feats are interesting, some have variable prerequisites, such
        as:
        >
        > Mental Leap
        > Prerequisites: Str 13+, 6 ranks of Jump, reserve power points
        3+
        > This feat, each time you take it doubles your jump height.
        Each
        > time this feat is taken, your prerequisite of reserve power points
        increases
        > by +8. This means that taking this feat twice needs a reserve
        power points
        > of 11+.
        >
        > Reserve Power Points are equal to you power point total. When they
        drop
        > below the minimum requirements for your feat, that feat is affected
        (usually
        > reduced in power), the feat mentions this. PCGen should just look
        at the
        > characters power point total to see if he or she can take the
        feat. --
        > This is IMPORTANT!!!
        >
        > Inner Strength
        > This feat adds +1 to your Power Point total, the first time
        it is
        > taken, this increases by +1 for each time it is taken. 3 times is
        +1, +2,
        > and +3 for a total of +6 to power points.
        >
        >
        >
        > Psionics:
        >
        > Power Level and Power Point costs:
        >
        > This would be great if we could get this printed on a character
        sheet. VERY
        > IMPORTANT.
        >
        > Power Level 0 1 2 3 4 5
        6
        > 7 8 9
        > Power Point Cost 0/1 1 3 5 7 9
        11
        > 13 15 17
        >
        > Display:
        >
        > This is what the effect looks like, it is also important. There is
        no
        > components, etc that I have seen. This seems to replace that.
        >
        > Auditory (Au)
        > Material (Ma)
        > Mental (Me)
        > Olfactory (Ol)
        > Visual (Vi)
        >
        >
        > Psionics are broken down into the 6 different disciplines.
        >
        > There is no spell resistance, it is called power resistance. In
        the rules,
        > both are interchangeable, unless you use the alternate rules (which
        make
        > psionics VERY powerful).
        >
        > Power Points are listed for each power (this may be redundant, but
        it should
        > be listed somewhere in the character sheet).
        >
        > There is no casting time, it is called Manifestation time.
        >
        > There are still descriptors :)
        >
        > Ranges appear to be the same as spell ranges.
        >
        > At the end of the spells discipline is the key ability in
        parenthesis.
        >
        >
        > The Psionics Character sheet at the back of the book has the
        following on
        > it:
        >
        > Power Save
        > Free Manifestations (0 level powers or talents as they are called)
        > Power Points
        >
        > Psionic Combat chart
        >
        > Attack Modes--5
        > Defense Modes--5
        > Powers
        > Number of powers known
        >
        >
        >
        > I hope this helps :)
        >
        > If there are any questions, fire em off. I'll be here until 11
        p.m. or so
        > EST
        >
        >
        > John Sussenberger
        > lmn
        >
        > Desktop Services Operations
        > Phone: (603) 245-4247
        > E-mail: john.sussenberger@l...
        > Pager: 888-912-0442 or mailto:9120442@s...
      • mocha@mcs.net
        ... order to ... general idea ... on a ... make my ... listed ... Subschool, ... Please note ... terms used by ... spells - for ... Universal, Flame, ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2001
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          --- In pcgen@y..., "David Cortijo" <dcortijo@i...> wrote:
          > Extremely helpful post, John. I'll wrap my head around it later in
          order to
          > add specific requests as needed. If you could please give me a
          general idea
          > as to what the PP progression is for the classes (i.e. is it based
          on a
          > formula, completely arbitrary, etc), I'd appreciate it - it would
          make my
          > life a million times easier.
          >
          > Another note on spell.lst file. Spells have 3 attributes that are
          listed
          > right after the spell's name in a printed description - School,
          Subschool,
          > and Descriptor (subschool and descriptor don't always exist).
          Please note
          > these are the publishing terms, that MAY NOT correspond to the
          terms used by
          > PCgen.
          >
          > The DESCRIPTOR tag was created as a sort of "second school" for
          spells - for
          > example, in the Al-Qadim campaign, spells are part of the
          Universal, Flame,
          > Sand, Sea, or Wind school - all spells are part of one of these
          schools, and
          > these spells are the only ones "native" to the campaign.
          >
          > However, this does not account for how to input the spells actually
          > "descriptor" (i.e. Mind-Influencing, Fire, Evil, etc). What field,
          > specifically, is this done in in the spell files? I was under the
          > assumption that the field was $effect_type$, as per the description
          in the
          > readme.html file. We need to come up with some sort of universally
          accepted
          > convention for this if files are going to remain distributed this
          way -
          > otherwise, things get too damned confusing....

          The descriptor is all the stuff in brackets in the spell
          description. There was some discussion yesterday about how to attach
          a spell description - and they decided to overwrite the effect_type
          column in phbspell.lst. DESCRIPTOR: is the optional tag in spell.lst
          where stuff like Mind-Influencing can be put. There is no
          DESCRIPTION: tag yet, though I'd like to provide a look-up feature to
          grab this from a user-provided file. I won't change the effect_type
          column in my spell.lst files, and (as far as I know) all the
          DESCRIPTOR tags have been added, so my spell.lst files won't be
          changing any time soon. You're right, though, the discussion about
          effect_type, descriptor and description has confused a few people!

          -Bryan


          >
          > Dave
        • mocha@mcs.net
          Thanks Dave and John, your assessments have made my life *much* easier! I ve printed out John s original email and Dave s response (as well as Dave s BONUS:
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 1, 2001
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            Thanks Dave and John, your assessments have made my life *much*
            easier! I've printed out John's original email and Dave's response
            (as well as Dave's BONUS: file in the Bugs And Features folder), so
            I've got a lot to absorb. It will be *really cool* to be able to
            support all the psionics stuff and finish support for FR and other
            prestige class sources. I wish I could do this as a job rather than
            as a hobby! :)

            -Bryan
          • Robert Gale
            Bryan, First let me say what a GREAT job your doing with PCGen. I think you SHOULD get paid for doing this! I ve been a professional software developer for 20
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 6, 2001
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              Bryan,

              First let me say what a GREAT job your doing with PCGen.
              I think you SHOULD get paid for doing this!

              I've been a professional software developer for 20 years and playing
              D&D longer than that. I do computer game and internet development (I
              have a consulting firm) and I'd love to help you with PCGen.

              You want some help? Maybe I could help you with Psionics and monster
              characters (two of the features I could really use).

              Send me an email to robgale@... if your
              interested.

              - Rob Gale

              --- In pcgen@y..., mocha@m... wrote:
              > Thanks Dave and John, your assessments have made my life *much*
              > easier! I've printed out John's original email and Dave's response
              > (as well as Dave's BONUS: file in the Bugs And Features folder), so
              > I've got a lot to absorb. It will be *really cool* to be able to
              > support all the psionics stuff and finish support for FR and other
              > prestige class sources. I wish I could do this as a job rather than
              > as a hobby! :)
              >
              > -Bryan
            • Shawn Chesak
              Just as a note, monster characters can be almost perfectly done right now. Create the base monster types as classes and then put in the specific monsters as
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 6, 2001
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                Just as a note, monster characters can be almost perfectly done right now.
                 
                Create the base monster types as 'classes' and then put in the specific monsters as races.
                 
                Thus, a hill giant could be made by selecting Hill Giant as a race, and adding levels of 'giant' as a class.
                 
                After you add a number of giant levels = a hill giant's Hit Dice, you can then begin adding other 'real' classes (fighter, for example).
                 
                The only problem this poses currently is that the number of skill points the different creature types gets per hit die does not include their intelligence modifier, as other true classes are.  Additionally, the Abberation creature type is supposed to get an additional number of feats based on int mod.  Neither of these exceptions can be properly handled by PCGen right now.
                 
                Other than those 2 things, however, monsters capabilities in terms of AB, Saving throws, feats, etc. is all based on their hit dice, just as if the monster type were a class.  I've added monster races to a custom lst file on my end, and have created 'classes' for Abberation, Giant, Humanoid, and Monstrous Humanoid in order to create monster types.  I just add a note in the SA: tag of the 'class' for how many skill points they SHOULD have by INT and hitdie, and then modify that part manually.
                 
                The only reason I haven't uploaded what I have done to the yahoogroup file section is because of the 2 features that don't work right currently. (I've created lst files of all of the spells and classes from Sword and Sorcery's Relics and Rituals and every magic item from the DMG as well, but for similiar reasons of not-full compatability I haven't uploaded those either).
                 
                Dragon #276 has an excellent article regarding how to 'build a monster' and each of the monster-types is detailed there in just the right format to make them into a 'class' for pcgen.  The creatures in the Monster Manual all conform to those guidelines as well, btw. (at least all of those listing advancement "by character class").
                 
                 

                ---
                Shawn A. Chesak
                Stormkeep GM -- http://www.stormkeep.net

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Robert Gale [mailto:robgale@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:38 PM
                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [pcgen] Re: Psionics Handbook

                Bryan,

                First let me say what a GREAT job your doing with PCGen.
                I think you SHOULD get paid for doing this!

                I've been a professional software developer for 20 years and playing
                D&D longer than that. I do computer game and internet development (I
                have a consulting firm) and I'd love to help you with PCGen.

                You want some help?  Maybe I could help you with Psionics and monster
                characters (two of the features I could really use).

                Send me an email to robgale@... if your
                interested.

                - Rob Gale
              • mocha@mcs.net
                Yeah - it really won t take much to make what you want to work. I hadn t really thought about that when I started writing PCGen, but it falls into place
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 6, 2001
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                  Yeah - it really won't take much to make what you want to work. I
                  hadn't really thought about that when I started writing PCGen, but it
                  falls into place nicely. I plan on making all the tags in the race
                  files avaialble to be overridden in the class files, making a class
                  pretty much able to replace a race. The only other tweaks are what
                  you mention - feats and skill points, which are trivial. I'll get
                  there, and then I'll be quite interested in what you've put together
                  in your monster lst file! :)

                  -Bryan

                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Shawn Chesak" <shawnchesak@e...> wrote:
                  > Just as a note, monster characters can be almost perfectly done
                  right now.
                  >
                  > Create the base monster types as 'classes' and then put in the
                  specific
                  > monsters as races.
                  >
                  > Thus, a hill giant could be made by selecting Hill Giant as a race,
                  and
                  > adding levels of 'giant' as a class.
                  >
                  > After you add a number of giant levels = a hill giant's Hit Dice,
                  you can
                  > then begin adding other 'real' classes (fighter, for example).
                  >
                  > The only problem this poses currently is that the number of skill
                  points
                  > the different creature types gets per hit die does not include their
                  > intelligence modifier, as other true classes are. Additionally, the
                  > Abberation creature type is supposed to get an additional number of
                  feats
                  > based on int mod. Neither of these exceptions can be properly
                  handled by
                  > PCGen right now.
                  >
                  > Other than those 2 things, however, monsters capabilities in terms
                  of AB,
                  > Saving throws, feats, etc. is all based on their hit dice, just as
                  if the
                  > monster type were a class. I've added monster races to a custom
                  lst file
                  > on my end, and have created 'classes' for Abberation, Giant,
                  Humanoid, and
                  > Monstrous Humanoid in order to create monster types. I just add a
                  note in
                  > the SA: tag of the 'class' for how many skill points they SHOULD
                  have by
                  > INT and hitdie, and then modify that part manually.
                  >
                  > The only reason I haven't uploaded what I have done to the
                  yahoogroup file
                  > section is because of the 2 features that don't work right
                  currently. (I've
                  > created lst files of all of the spells and classes from Sword and
                  Sorcery's
                  > Relics and Rituals and every magic item from the DMG as well, but
                  for
                  > similiar reasons of not-full compatability I haven't uploaded those
                  > either).
                  >
                  > Dragon #276 has an excellent article regarding how to 'build a
                  monster' and
                  > each of the monster-types is detailed there in just the right
                  format to
                  > make them into a 'class' for pcgen. The creatures in the Monster
                  Manual
                  > all conform to those guidelines as well, btw. (at least all of those
                  > listing advancement "by character class").
                  >
                  >
                  > ---
                  > Shawn A. Chesak
                  > Stormkeep GM -- http://www.stormkeep.net
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Robert Gale [mailto:robgale@m...]
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:38 PM
                  > To: pcgen@y...
                  > Subject: [pcgen] Re: Psionics Handbook
                  >
                  >
                  > Bryan,
                  >
                  > First let me say what a GREAT job your doing with PCGen.
                  > I think you SHOULD get paid for doing this!
                  >
                  > I've been a professional software developer for 20 years and
                  playing
                  > D&D longer than that. I do computer game and internet development
                  (I
                  > have a consulting firm) and I'd love to help you with PCGen.
                  >
                  > You want some help? Maybe I could help you with Psionics and
                  monster
                  > characters (two of the features I could really use).
                  >
                  > Send me an email to robgale@m... if your
                  > interested.
                  >
                  > - Rob Gale
                • Lonestar
                  Hello Shawn, SC The only reason I haven t uploaded what I have done to the yahoogroup file SC section is because of the 2 features that don t work right
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 6, 2001
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                    Hello Shawn,


                    SC> The only reason I haven't uploaded what I have done to the yahoogroup file
                    SC> section is because of the 2 features that don't work right currently. (I've
                    SC> created lst files of all of the spells and classes from Sword and Sorcery's
                    SC> Relics and Rituals and every magic item from the DMG as well, but for
                    SC> similiar reasons of not-full compatability I haven't uploaded those
                    SC> either).

                    Relics & Rituals?
                    Oh why does all the work have to be done twice?
                    Would you mind sending me those R&R lst files?


                    Lonestar mailto:Lonestar@...
                  • Robert Hilson
                    personally like i have said i am haveing a tracker made, for combat and for ease of use. if pcgen stayed the same, and a copy of it was made into mongen, with
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 7, 2001
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                      personally like i have said i am haveing a tracker made, for combat and for
                      ease of use. if pcgen stayed the same, and a copy of it was made into mongen,
                      with related info i could have up 3 programs, one for tracking combat, one for
                      the specifics of pc's and one for the specifics of the monsters. i personally
                      would prefer to have the 3 up, allows each more features and abilities than one
                      program that does all. my combat tracker (built by a friend should be pu in
                      about a week or 2(unexpected trouble and a little harder than she thought)
                      currently you copy the text of a monster into the tab for monsters say how many
                      and poof 6 goblins, goblin1, goblin2. etc. just saying maby once you see what i
                      want the tracker to do youll understand.

                      =====
                      Robert Hilson
                      https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=okuth0r%40yahoo.com

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