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REQ: Feature Freeze

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  • Rich Allen
    I d like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs are squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few of the existing bugs even
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
      I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs are
      squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few of
      the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my perception. In
      any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
      concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing bugs. Just
      a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
      developing.

      Rich Allen
    • Arcady
      I d be behind this if we supported the existing pool of books. Which we don t.I d support a freeze on FREQs that aren t designed to either complete that
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
        I'd be behind this if we supported the existing pool of books. Which we
        don't.

        I'd support a freeze on FREQs that aren't designed to either complete that
        support or improve the GUI. But not a general freeze.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Rich Allen [mailto:rico@...]
        > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 6:14 PM
        > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [pcgen] REQ: Feature Freeze
        >
        >
        > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs are
        > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few of
        > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my perception. In
        > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
        > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing bugs. Just
        > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
        > developing.
        >
        > Rich Allen
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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      • merton_monk@yahoo.com
        If this were a commercial project, you d better believe we d freeze until we had all the bugs squashed! I spend most of my rare free time focusing on bugs,
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
          If this were a commercial project, you'd better believe we'd freeze
          until we had all the bugs squashed! I spend most of my rare free
          time focusing on bugs, and I ask the other developers on the team to
          help with them as well. And they do... but generally developers get
          a lot more enjoyment out of adding features. I'm grateful for
          whatever help I can get, so I'm happy with how things have gone. I
          know it would be nice to have a bug-free app, and for some that's
          more important to others. I think some are happy to see that new
          feature they've been waiting for, even if it's not quite solid. That
          way they get to report bugs and give feedback that might affect the
          finished product.

          I don't think many new features break previously existing code - most
          new bugs are related only to new features, and not that previous
          features are being broken. Feats have been an issue, but that's the
          only exception I'm aware of. I'm hoping to resolve that one
          tonight. As with anything, this is open for debate, and if it seems
          there's a lot of breakage occuring, calling a freeze would be an
          appropriate action. I don't think we're there.

          -Bryan

          --- In pcgen@y..., "Rich Allen" <rico@r...> wrote:
          > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs
          are
          > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few
          of
          > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my perception.
          In
          > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
          > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing bugs.
          Just
          > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
          > developing.
          >
          > Rich Allen
        • merton_monk@yahoo.com
          ... Which we ... complete that ... As I responded to Rich... if we were a commercial product, the obvious methodology would be to aim at supporting one book at
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
            --- In pcgen@y..., "Arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
            > I'd be behind this if we supported the existing pool of books.
            Which we
            > don't.
            >
            > I'd support a freeze on FREQs that aren't designed to either
            complete that
            > support or improve the GUI. But not a general freeze.

            As I responded to Rich... if we were a commercial product, the
            obvious methodology would be to aim at supporting one book at a
            time. Get all that solidified, move on to the next one. The obvious
            kink in that is house-rules... I want to support those as well and
            not force them to wait until we support everything, and we'll never
            catch up with so many sources coming out so frequently. I've worked
            on enough projects to know that you can never get rid of all the
            bugs, the question is how many resources do you commit to resolving
            them and how many do you commit to features? Since this project is
            more for fun, we have a great deal more flexibility in this area. I
            think all of the developers have generally been pretty responsive to
            working on bugs related to any areas they've worked on - so I've felt
            no need for a freeze. It certainly is a possiblity at some point, but
            I don't think were at that point.

            -Bryan

            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Rich Allen [mailto:rico@r...]
            > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 6:14 PM
            > > To: pcgen@y...
            > > Subject: [pcgen] REQ: Feature Freeze
            > >
            > >
            > > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs
            are
            > > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a
            few of
            > > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my
            perception. In
            > > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
            > > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing
            bugs. Just
            > > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
            > > developing.
            > >
            > > Rich Allen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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          • Dave Fallon
            ... I think for the most part, there has been a feature freeze. Most of the current development work has been going into fixing bugs and improving the system,
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
              On Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:13:33PM -0600, Rich Allen wrote:
              > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs are
              > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few of
              > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my perception. In
              > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
              > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing bugs. Just
              > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
              > developing.

              I think for the most part, there has been a feature freeze. Most of the current development work has been going into fixing bugs and improving the system, rather than adding new stuff. I think the problem has been more that the current pattern of releasing has meant that any bug fixes that go in aren't really tested before releasing, so bug "fixes" fix one problem and cause one (or two or three) more. :) Note, mr. monk, this isn't a criticism, it's a problem inherent in having a ton of developers working on a really complex program.

              There are two potential fixes. First, someone can step up and decide to take charge of the unit testing system, and actually write tests/maintain the system. This is probably the best way to go, but it requires someone to invest some serious time in a not-very-rewarding task. :) For anyone who's an aspiring developer, though, it's probably the best way I can think of to learn how PCGen works. Second, we can change the release pattern a bit, by having some kind of freeze declared "internally", i.e., to the developers and the enterprising users who are willing to put up with problems, and not release to the public until it passes muster. Of course, this won't really fix the problem, but it will certainly reduce the public perception of the problem, and make sure that some of the "obvious" bugs that happen every release get nailed. <shrug> Choices, choices.

              dave
            • merton_monk@yahoo.com
              ... are ... few of ... perception. In ... bugs. Just ... the current development work has been going into fixing bugs and improving the system, rather than
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
                --- In pcgen@y..., Dave Fallon <davef@t...> wrote:
                > On Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:13:33PM -0600, Rich Allen wrote:
                > > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs
                are
                > > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a
                few of
                > > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my
                perception. In
                > > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
                > > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing
                bugs. Just
                > > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
                > > developing.
                >
                > I think for the most part, there has been a feature freeze. Most of
                the current development work has been going into fixing bugs and
                improving the system, rather than adding new stuff. I think the
                problem has been more that the current pattern of releasing has meant
                that any bug fixes that go in aren't really tested before releasing,
                so bug "fixes" fix one problem and cause one (or two or three) more.
                :) Note, mr. monk, this isn't a criticism, it's a problem inherent in
                having a ton of developers working on a really complex program.
                >
                > There are two potential fixes. First, someone can step up and
                decide to take charge of the unit testing system, and actually write
                tests/maintain the system. This is probably the best way to go, but
                it requires someone to invest some serious time in a not-very-
                rewarding task. :) For anyone who's an aspiring developer, though,
                it's probably the best way I can think of to learn how PCGen works.
                Second, we can change the release pattern a bit, by having some kind
                of freeze declared "internally", i.e., to the developers and the
                enterprising users who are willing to put up with problems, and not
                release to the public until it passes muster. Of course, this won't
                really fix the problem, but it will certainly reduce the public
                perception of the problem, and make sure that some of the "obvious"
                bugs that happen every release get nailed. <shrug> Choices, choices.

                One thing I've started to do personally is create a bunch of pcg
                files which should test a fair amount of functionality. I load these
                characters into each release and compare them to the 'accepted'
                results from previous releases. This won't find everything (like the
                feat bug, which I just fixed, which was caused by the feat tab), but
                it's a start. You're right in that unit testing would be a huge time
                commitment by someone with little externally obvious (reward) to show
                for it. I'll continue to bolster my pcg suite, and maybe I'll start
                adding any pcg files from the "Character PCG Files" and that have
                been attached to bug reports to my suite. Of course, at some point
                they overlap in what they're testing, and I don't want to spend
                forever testing. I view this group here as the testing unit, which
                is why I haven't been so demanding of a rigorous testing methodology
                before each release. I think we've kind of crossed some invisible
                threshhold where people are expecting more out of each release (at
                least they're not expecting bugs), which is why I'm cultivating my
                pcg file suite. Maybe I could recruit some users with access to the
                CVS code (like mynex, Arcady, etc.) to help run regression tests.
                I'll throw this open to volunteers - anyone who wants to join the
                "Regression Test Squad", let me know and I'll let you know how it
                will work. The only requirement is the ability to compile java. For
                those who can't get ant to work, I can send you a script that will
                compile pcgen with javac. Either way you need to have the
                developer's version of java 1.3 installed.

                -Bryan

                >
                > dave
              • lonejedi70@hotmail.com
                Can we set up a testsuite directory in CVS to share these (and future) test PCG s. Eventually, should some brave volunteer step forward, we could keep all
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
                  Can we set up a "testsuite" directory in CVS to share these (and
                  future) test PCG's. Eventually, should some brave volunteer step
                  forward, we could keep all verification testing stuff there. Or do
                  we already have something like this set up?

                  -Lone Jedi
                  (Jason)

                  --- In pcgen@y..., merton_monk@y... wrote:
                  > One thing I've started to do personally is create a bunch of pcg
                  > files which should test a fair amount of functionality. I load
                  > these characters into each release and compare them to
                  > the 'accepted' results from previous releases.
                  > -Bryan
                • Arcady
                  Could you post those pcg files?If more of us had them, we could all help to catch each other. A sort of test suite Perhaps put it in CVS and we could add a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
                    Could you post those pcg files?

                    If more of us had them, we could all help to catch each other.
                    A sort of 'test suite'
                    Perhaps put it in CVS and we could add a few more to the suite as new
                    features call for it.


                    > One thing I've started to do personally is create a bunch of pcg
                    > files which should test a fair amount of functionality. I load these
                    > characters into each release and compare them to the 'accepted'
                    > results from previous releases. This won't find everything (like the
                    > feat bug, which I just fixed, which was caused by the feat tab), but
                    > it's a start. You're right in that unit testing would be a huge time
                    > commitment by someone with little externally obvious (reward) to show
                    > for it. I'll continue to bolster my pcg suite, and maybe I'll start
                    > adding any pcg files from the "Character PCG Files" and that have
                    > been attached to bug reports to my suite. Of course, at some point
                    > they overlap in what they're testing, and I don't want to spend
                    > forever testing. I view this group here as the testing unit, which
                    > is why I haven't been so demanding of a rigorous testing methodology
                    > before each release. I think we've kind of crossed some invisible


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                  • Arcady
                    Done:http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/pcgen/testsuite/Nothing in it yet though.Hopefully he ll upload all his pcgs soon and then we can
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 29, 2001
                      Done:

                      http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/pcgen/testsuite/

                      Nothing in it yet though.

                      Hopefully he'll upload all his pcgs soon and then we can grab them and add
                      new ones as needed.

                      I could also see a need for two test templates. One character and one party.
                      Both containing ALL of the possible fields that could be output to a
                      character sheet.

                      Other than that, I used a subdirectory method here in case there are future
                      forms of test data at some as yet unforseen point in time.

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: lonejedi70@... [mailto:lonejedi70@...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:56 PM
                      > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [pcgen] Re: REQ: Feature Freeze
                      >
                      >
                      > Can we set up a "testsuite" directory in CVS to share these (and
                      > future) test PCG's. Eventually, should some brave volunteer step
                      > forward, we could keep all verification testing stuff there. Or do
                      > we already have something like this set up?
                      >
                      > -Lone Jedi
                      > (Jason)
                      >
                      > --- In pcgen@y..., merton_monk@y... wrote:
                      > > One thing I've started to do personally is create a bunch of pcg
                      > > files which should test a fair amount of functionality. I load
                      > > these characters into each release and compare them to
                      > > the 'accepted' results from previous releases.
                      > > -Bryan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >


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                    • mynex2k1@yahoo.com
                      This was bound to happen with PCGen getting more publicity and users out there. Also bound to happen because most PC generator programs out there are cough
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                        This was bound to happen with PCGen getting more publicity and users
                        out there. Also bound to happen because most PC generator programs
                        out there are >cough< sub-par >cough< in comparison to PCGen as well
                        as MT's being pushed back so far, as well as the revamped lack of
                        immediate features of MT. And let's not forget, even though not
                        everything is fully supported yet, PCGen is currently (to the best of
                        my knowledge) *THE* most complete for source material PC generation
                        program around. Add in Jamis making an NPC generator, given his HUGE
                        following of site visitors, PCGen is going to explode here very
                        shortly. (Thanks for the boost Jamis!)

                        I do agree that something needs to be done, but a freeze probably
                        isn't the best idea, at least not a statement of a freeze, per se.

                        I would suggest however that maybe release dates be pushed to every 2
                        weeks instead of every week. Pick one day for "official release" of
                        the newest code, and have *ALL* new/fixed code cheked in 2 days prior
                        to that day for testing purposes.

                        As for testing, I would be more than happy to help in that regard, I
                        keep seperate directories as is for my 'used for gaming purposes' and
                        for 'new releases, let's see what it does this time', so this would
                        not present a problem for me.

                        Bryan, you said JDK1.3, is 1.4 acceptable or do I need to downgrade
                        to 1.3? (perhaps I should stick to 1.4 and test the code in this
                        manner as well?)

                        Perhaps when my SF project is approved (their docs say they're off
                        weekends, so by tuesday I should hear something), we can add the
                        testers group for there as well? At least set up a forum or 3 for
                        going over what we find? (just tossing ideas out there right now)

                        Mynex


                        > I think we've kind of crossed some invisible
                        > threshhold where people are expecting more out of each release (at
                        > least they're not expecting bugs), which is why I'm cultivating my
                        > pcg file suite. Maybe I could recruit some users with access to the
                        > CVS code (like mynex, Arcady, etc.) to help run regression tests.
                        > I'll throw this open to volunteers - anyone who wants to join the
                        > "Regression Test Squad", let me know and I'll let you know how it
                        > will work. The only requirement is the ability to compile java.
                        > For those who can't get ant to work, I can send you a script that
                        > will compile pcgen with javac. Either way you need to have the
                        > developer's version of java 1.3 installed.
                        >
                        > -Bryan
                        >
                        > >
                        > > dave
                      • Tom Deprez
                        Just my 0.2 cents: Please don t take this as criticism. But isn t the bug-problem cause by the complexity of the parsing of the files? Perhaps it s time to sit
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                          Just my 0.2 cents:

                          Please don't take this as criticism.
                          But isn't the bug-problem cause by the complexity of the parsing of the
                          files?
                          Perhaps it's time to sit back and look at all the features there are added
                          now and look at a new way of implementing it.
                          I know you all talked about this and correct I'm not fond of it too, because
                          it means to totally change the files at the moment or create a converter.
                          But? Perhaps it will remove some even bigger problems in the future if you
                          now tackle this problem already

                          Tom.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dave Fallon" <davef@...>
                          To: <pcgen@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 4:39 AM
                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] REQ: Feature Freeze


                          > On Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:13:33PM -0600, Rich Allen wrote:
                          > > I'd like to propose a feature freeze until all current bugs are
                          > > squashed. It seems as if some of the recent FREQs have made a few of
                          > > the existing bugs even worse, or maybe that's just my perception. In
                          > > any case, a feature freeze would allow the developers a chance to
                          > > concentrate on cleaning up the code and fixing the existing bugs. Just
                          > > a suggestion; I know I welcome feature freezes at work while I'm
                          > > developing.
                          >
                          > I think for the most part, there has been a feature freeze. Most of the
                          current development work has been going into fixing bugs and improving the
                          system, rather than adding new stuff. I think the problem has been more that
                          the current pattern of releasing has meant that any bug fixes that go in
                          aren't really tested before releasing, so bug "fixes" fix one problem and
                          cause one (or two or three) more. :) Note, mr. monk, this isn't a criticism,
                          it's a problem inherent in having a ton of developers working on a really
                          complex program.
                          >
                          > There are two potential fixes. First, someone can step up and decide to
                          take charge of the unit testing system, and actually write tests/maintain
                          the system. This is probably the best way to go, but it requires someone to
                          invest some serious time in a not-very-rewarding task. :) For anyone who's
                          an aspiring developer, though, it's probably the best way I can think of to
                          learn how PCGen works. Second, we can change the release pattern a bit, by
                          having some kind of freeze declared "internally", i.e., to the developers
                          and the enterprising users who are willing to put up with problems, and not
                          release to the public until it passes muster. Of course, this won't really
                          fix the problem, but it will certainly reduce the public perception of the
                          problem, and make sure that some of the "obvious" bugs that happen every
                          release get nailed. <shrug> Choices, choices.
                          >
                          > dave
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                          Good idea. I ve added a directory csheets . I checked in my pcg files to the PCGFiles directory (they re named so I know what they are...) and checked in
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                            Good idea. I've added a directory "csheets". I checked in my pcg
                            files to the PCGFiles directory (they're named so I know what they
                            are...) and checked in their htm character sheets and party sheet to
                            the csheets directory. Every version of PCGen should output
                            character sheets (using csheet.htm) that exactly match that numbers-
                            wise. Right now it really just tests the PHB, we'll need to add some
                            that will test each of the books in a way that tests as much
                            functionality as possible without doing too much overlap so we can
                            make the tests as robust and short as possible.

                            -Bryan

                            --- In pcgen@y..., "Arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
                            > Done:
                            >
                            > http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/pcgen/testsuite/
                            >
                            > Nothing in it yet though.
                            >
                            > Hopefully he'll upload all his pcgs soon and then we can grab them
                            and add
                            > new ones as needed.
                            >
                            > I could also see a need for two test templates. One character and
                            one party.
                            > Both containing ALL of the possible fields that could be output to a
                            > character sheet.
                            >
                            > Other than that, I used a subdirectory method here in case there
                            are future
                            > forms of test data at some as yet unforseen point in time.
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: lonejedi70@h... [mailto:lonejedi70@h...]
                            > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:56 PM
                            > > To: pcgen@y...
                            > > Subject: [pcgen] Re: REQ: Feature Freeze
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Can we set up a "testsuite" directory in CVS to share these (and
                            > > future) test PCG's. Eventually, should some brave volunteer step
                            > > forward, we could keep all verification testing stuff there. Or
                            do
                            > > we already have something like this set up?
                            > >
                            > > -Lone Jedi
                            > > (Jason)
                            > >
                            > > --- In pcgen@y..., merton_monk@y... wrote:
                            > > > One thing I've started to do personally is create a bunch of pcg
                            > > > files which should test a fair amount of functionality. I load
                            > > > these characters into each release and compare them to
                            > > > the 'accepted' results from previous releases.
                            > > > -Bryan
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                          • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                            You know - I haven t done a lot of investigation about what sourceforge has, but you got me to wondering, so I did some checking. It appears that I can add
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                              You know - I haven't done a lot of investigation about what
                              sourceforge has, but you got me to wondering, so I did some
                              checking. It appears that I can add people to the project as
                              "Testers" that wouldn't have access to modify code, but would have
                              access to download it without having to create a separate project as
                              a work-around. How about I add you, and whoever else graciously
                              offers to join this effort, as Testers? I think what I want to do
                              is fairly obvious - I'd like you to create a bunch of pcg files that
                              will test as much functionality as possible. Domain spells and
                              psionic warriors are the next step in what I had planned - you can
                              use the pcg files I've already checked in, but if you want to replace
                              them, that's fine. You might not have permission to check in changes
                              to the pcg files through cvs as a Tester... you can probably just
                              upload them here into some directory, and Jonas, myself, or one of
                              the other developers could then check them in to the appropriate
                              directory. If it becomes too much of a hassle, I'll be willing to
                              give you developer status so you can make the checkins yourself once
                              you're comortable with how it works. I appreciate your help! This is
                              the biggest community effort I've ever participated in and it only
                              works because people like you are willing to help out so much! :)


                              -Bryan


                              --- In pcgen@y..., mynex2k1@y... wrote:
                              >
                              > This was bound to happen with PCGen getting more publicity and
                              users
                              > out there. Also bound to happen because most PC generator programs
                              > out there are >cough< sub-par >cough< in comparison to PCGen as
                              well
                              > as MT's being pushed back so far, as well as the revamped lack of
                              > immediate features of MT. And let's not forget, even though not
                              > everything is fully supported yet, PCGen is currently (to the best
                              of
                              > my knowledge) *THE* most complete for source material PC generation
                              > program around. Add in Jamis making an NPC generator, given his
                              HUGE
                              > following of site visitors, PCGen is going to explode here very
                              > shortly. (Thanks for the boost Jamis!)
                              >
                              > I do agree that something needs to be done, but a freeze probably
                              > isn't the best idea, at least not a statement of a freeze, per se.
                              >
                              > I would suggest however that maybe release dates be pushed to every
                              2
                              > weeks instead of every week. Pick one day for "official release"
                              of
                              > the newest code, and have *ALL* new/fixed code cheked in 2 days
                              prior
                              > to that day for testing purposes.
                              >
                              > As for testing, I would be more than happy to help in that regard,
                              I
                              > keep seperate directories as is for my 'used for gaming purposes'
                              and
                              > for 'new releases, let's see what it does this time', so this would
                              > not present a problem for me.
                              >
                              > Bryan, you said JDK1.3, is 1.4 acceptable or do I need to downgrade
                              > to 1.3? (perhaps I should stick to 1.4 and test the code in this
                              > manner as well?)
                              >
                              > Perhaps when my SF project is approved (their docs say they're off
                              > weekends, so by tuesday I should hear something), we can add the
                              > testers group for there as well? At least set up a forum or 3 for
                              > going over what we find? (just tossing ideas out there right now)
                              >
                              > Mynex
                              >
                              >
                              > > I think we've kind of crossed some invisible
                              > > threshhold where people are expecting more out of each release
                              (at
                              > > least they're not expecting bugs), which is why I'm cultivating
                              my
                              > > pcg file suite. Maybe I could recruit some users with access to
                              the
                              > > CVS code (like mynex, Arcady, etc.) to help run regression
                              tests.
                              > > I'll throw this open to volunteers - anyone who wants to join the
                              > > "Regression Test Squad", let me know and I'll let you know how it
                              > > will work. The only requirement is the ability to compile
                              java.
                              > > For those who can't get ant to work, I can send you a script
                              that
                              > > will compile pcgen with javac. Either way you need to have the
                              > > developer's version of java 1.3 installed.
                              > >
                              > > -Bryan
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > dave
                            • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                              Oh - by the way. It seems that PCGen running under java 1.4 is rather unstable, at least a number of people have complained. I believe 1.4 is still in beta ,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                Oh - by the way. It seems that PCGen running under java 1.4 is rather
                                unstable, at least a number of people have complained. I believe 1.4
                                is still 'in beta', so I would recommend sticking with 1.3 for now.
                                At some point we may want to take a serious look at 1.4 and if we can
                                take advantage of its new features/fixes, but for now we'll stick to
                                1.3.

                                -Bryan
                              • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                                ... Okay. :) ... the ... are added ... too, because ... converter. ... if you ... I don t think I quite follow you here - changing what files? Are you
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Tom Deprez" <zifnabbe@u...> wrote:
                                  > Just my 0.2 cents:
                                  >
                                  > Please don't take this as criticism.

                                  Okay. :)

                                  > But isn't the bug-problem cause by the complexity of the parsing of
                                  the
                                  > files?
                                  > Perhaps it's time to sit back and look at all the features there
                                  are added
                                  > now and look at a new way of implementing it.
                                  > I know you all talked about this and correct I'm not fond of it
                                  too, because
                                  > it means to totally change the files at the moment or create a
                                  converter.
                                  > But? Perhaps it will remove some even bigger problems in the future
                                  if you
                                  > now tackle this problem already

                                  I don't think I quite follow you here - changing what files? Are you
                                  referring to the xml conversion? The conversion process shouldn't be
                                  very difficult - we'll be able to read the lst files like we do now,
                                  and we'll add in the ability to read xml files as well. We may add
                                  some code that will effectively allow you to read in lst files are
                                  save them as xml files, but I'm not sure that effort would be worth
                                  it. I think if we can make the xml format clear that we have enough
                                  helpers here to convert everything in the official releases in pretty
                                  short order.

                                  But maybe that wasn't what you were referring to....

                                  -Bryan

                                  >
                                  > Tom.
                                • Tom Deprez
                                  ... ? You don t have to make testers . Normally every person can as anonymous download the CVS tree. As I did last week. The anonymous can t send modified
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                    > You know - I haven't done a lot of investigation about what
                                    > sourceforge has, but you got me to wondering, so I did some
                                    > checking. It appears that I can add people to the project as
                                    > "Testers" that wouldn't have access to modify code, but would have
                                    > access to download it without having to create a separate project as
                                    > a work-around.

                                    ? You don't have to make 'testers'. Normally every person can as 'anonymous'
                                    download the CVS tree.
                                    As I did last week. The anonymous can't send modified code to the tree,
                                    he/she can only download.

                                    Tom.
                                  • Tom Deprez
                                    ... Hi Brayn, I was refering the basilisk engine. Tom
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                      > I don't think I quite follow you here - changing what files? Are you
                                      > referring to the xml conversion? The conversion process shouldn't be
                                      > very difficult - we'll be able to read the lst files like we do now,
                                      > and we'll add in the ability to read xml files as well. We may add
                                      > some code that will effectively allow you to read in lst files are
                                      > save them as xml files, but I'm not sure that effort would be worth
                                      > it. I think if we can make the xml format clear that we have enough
                                      > helpers here to convert everything in the official releases in pretty
                                      > short order.
                                      >
                                      > But maybe that wasn't what you were referring to....
                                      >
                                      Hi Brayn,
                                      I was refering the basilisk engine.

                                      Tom
                                    • Arcady
                                      I d prefer XML, or the format we have now. Hi Brayn, I was refering the basilisk engine. Tom To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                        I'd prefer XML, or the format we have now.


                                        > >
                                        > Hi Brayn,
                                        > I was refering the basilisk engine.
                                        >
                                        > Tom
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >


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                                      • Dave Fallon
                                        ... As an incidental note about that, I d recommend holding off on messing with the domain system, as all the work I m doing to revamp the spell tab
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                          On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 04:47:34PM -0000, merton_monk@... wrote:
                                          > You know - I haven't done a lot of investigation about what
                                          > sourceforge has, but you got me to wondering, so I did some
                                          > checking. It appears that I can add people to the project as
                                          > "Testers" that wouldn't have access to modify code, but would have
                                          > access to download it without having to create a separate project as
                                          > a work-around. How about I add you, and whoever else graciously
                                          > offers to join this effort, as Testers? I think what I want to do
                                          > is fairly obvious - I'd like you to create a bunch of pcg files that
                                          > will test as much functionality as possible. Domain spells and
                                          > psionic warriors are the next step in what I had planned - you can

                                          As an incidental note about that, I'd recommend holding off on messing with the domain system, as all the work I'm doing to revamp the spell tab should/will deal with that problem also. :) It'd be a waste to have you go in and fix things, then have me go back and redo the fix later.

                                          > use the pcg files I've already checked in, but if you want to replace
                                          > them, that's fine. You might not have permission to check in changes
                                          > to the pcg files through cvs as a Tester... you can probably just
                                          > upload them here into some directory, and Jonas, myself, or one of
                                          > the other developers could then check them in to the appropriate
                                          > directory. If it becomes too much of a hassle, I'll be willing to
                                          > give you developer status so you can make the checkins yourself once
                                          > you're comortable with how it works. I appreciate your help! This is
                                          > the biggest community effort I've ever participated in and it only
                                          > works because people like you are willing to help out so much! :)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -Bryan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In pcgen@y..., mynex2k1@y... wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > This was bound to happen with PCGen getting more publicity and
                                          > users
                                          > > out there. Also bound to happen because most PC generator programs
                                          > > out there are >cough< sub-par >cough< in comparison to PCGen as
                                          > well
                                          > > as MT's being pushed back so far, as well as the revamped lack of
                                          > > immediate features of MT. And let's not forget, even though not
                                          > > everything is fully supported yet, PCGen is currently (to the best
                                          > of
                                          > > my knowledge) *THE* most complete for source material PC generation
                                          > > program around. Add in Jamis making an NPC generator, given his
                                          > HUGE
                                          > > following of site visitors, PCGen is going to explode here very
                                          > > shortly. (Thanks for the boost Jamis!)
                                          > >
                                          > > I do agree that something needs to be done, but a freeze probably
                                          > > isn't the best idea, at least not a statement of a freeze, per se.
                                          > >
                                          > > I would suggest however that maybe release dates be pushed to every
                                          > 2
                                          > > weeks instead of every week. Pick one day for "official release"
                                          > of
                                          > > the newest code, and have *ALL* new/fixed code cheked in 2 days
                                          > prior
                                          > > to that day for testing purposes.
                                          > >
                                          > > As for testing, I would be more than happy to help in that regard,
                                          > I
                                          > > keep seperate directories as is for my 'used for gaming purposes'
                                          > and
                                          > > for 'new releases, let's see what it does this time', so this would
                                          > > not present a problem for me.
                                          > >
                                          > > Bryan, you said JDK1.3, is 1.4 acceptable or do I need to downgrade
                                          > > to 1.3? (perhaps I should stick to 1.4 and test the code in this
                                          > > manner as well?)
                                          > >
                                          > > Perhaps when my SF project is approved (their docs say they're off
                                          > > weekends, so by tuesday I should hear something), we can add the
                                          > > testers group for there as well? At least set up a forum or 3 for
                                          > > going over what we find? (just tossing ideas out there right now)
                                          > >
                                          > > Mynex
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > > I think we've kind of crossed some invisible
                                          > > > threshhold where people are expecting more out of each release
                                          > (at
                                          > > > least they're not expecting bugs), which is why I'm cultivating
                                          > my
                                          > > > pcg file suite. Maybe I could recruit some users with access to
                                          > the
                                          > > > CVS code (like mynex, Arcady, etc.) to help run regression
                                          > tests.
                                          > > > I'll throw this open to volunteers - anyone who wants to join the
                                          > > > "Regression Test Squad", let me know and I'll let you know how it
                                          > > > will work. The only requirement is the ability to compile
                                          > java.
                                          > > > For those who can't get ant to work, I can send you a script
                                          > that
                                          > > > will compile pcgen with javac. Either way you need to have the
                                          > > > developer's version of java 1.3 installed.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > -Bryan
                                          > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > dave
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > pcgen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • mynex2k1@yahoo.com
                                          Well, find out about what access the tester group has, if we can check stuff in, that would be cool for working on that. I still want to go ahead with the
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 30, 2001
                                            Well, find out about what access the "tester" group has, if we can
                                            check stuff in, that would be cool for working on that.

                                            I still want to go ahead with the PCGen:DM project. Keep the list
                                            files structure seperate until it's ready for implementation. I
                                            realize that's probably doubling the work, but might be a good idea
                                            for now. It would also allow those of us that aren't overly familiar
                                            with CVS to start getting used to it, thus avoiding any 'accidental'
                                            uploads over critical files.

                                            Mynex

                                            --- In pcgen@y..., merton_monk@y... wrote:
                                            > You know - I haven't done a lot of investigation about what
                                            > sourceforge has, but you got me to wondering, so I did some
                                            > checking. It appears that I can add people to the project as
                                            > "Testers" that wouldn't have access to modify code, but would have
                                            > access to download it without having to create a separate project
                                            as
                                            > a work-around. How about I add you, and whoever else graciously
                                            > offers to join this effort, as Testers? I think what I want to do
                                            > is fairly obvious - I'd like you to create a bunch of pcg files
                                            that
                                            > will test as much functionality as possible. Domain spells and
                                            > psionic warriors are the next step in what I had planned - you can
                                            > use the pcg files I've already checked in, but if you want to
                                            replace
                                            > them, that's fine. You might not have permission to check in
                                            changes
                                            > to the pcg files through cvs as a Tester... you can probably just
                                            > upload them here into some directory, and Jonas, myself, or one of
                                            > the other developers could then check them in to the appropriate
                                            > directory. If it becomes too much of a hassle, I'll be willing to
                                            > give you developer status so you can make the checkins yourself
                                            once
                                            > you're comortable with how it works. I appreciate your help! This
                                            is
                                            > the biggest community effort I've ever participated in and it only
                                            > works because people like you are willing to help out so much! :)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -Bryan
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pcgen@y..., mynex2k1@y... wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > This was bound to happen with PCGen getting more publicity and
                                            > users
                                            > > out there. Also bound to happen because most PC generator
                                            programs
                                            > > out there are >cough< sub-par >cough< in comparison to PCGen as
                                            > well
                                            > > as MT's being pushed back so far, as well as the revamped lack of
                                            > > immediate features of MT. And let's not forget, even though not
                                            > > everything is fully supported yet, PCGen is currently (to the
                                            best
                                            > of
                                            > > my knowledge) *THE* most complete for source material PC
                                            generation
                                            > > program around. Add in Jamis making an NPC generator, given his
                                            > HUGE
                                            > > following of site visitors, PCGen is going to explode here very
                                            > > shortly. (Thanks for the boost Jamis!)
                                            > >
                                            > > I do agree that something needs to be done, but a freeze probably
                                            > > isn't the best idea, at least not a statement of a freeze, per
                                            se.
                                            > >
                                            > > I would suggest however that maybe release dates be pushed to
                                            every
                                            > 2
                                            > > weeks instead of every week. Pick one day for "official release"
                                            > of
                                            > > the newest code, and have *ALL* new/fixed code cheked in 2 days
                                            > prior
                                            > > to that day for testing purposes.
                                            > >
                                            > > As for testing, I would be more than happy to help in that
                                            regard,
                                            > I
                                            > > keep seperate directories as is for my 'used for gaming purposes'
                                            > and
                                            > > for 'new releases, let's see what it does this time', so this
                                            would
                                            > > not present a problem for me.
                                            > >
                                            > > Bryan, you said JDK1.3, is 1.4 acceptable or do I need to
                                            downgrade
                                            > > to 1.3? (perhaps I should stick to 1.4 and test the code in this
                                            > > manner as well?)
                                            > >
                                            > > Perhaps when my SF project is approved (their docs say they're
                                            off
                                            > > weekends, so by tuesday I should hear something), we can add the
                                            > > testers group for there as well? At least set up a forum or 3
                                            for
                                            > > going over what we find? (just tossing ideas out there right now)
                                            > >
                                            > > Mynex
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > I think we've kind of crossed some invisible
                                            > > > threshhold where people are expecting more out of each release
                                            > (at
                                            > > > least they're not expecting bugs), which is why I'm cultivating
                                            > my
                                            > > > pcg file suite. Maybe I could recruit some users with access to
                                            > the
                                            > > > CVS code (like mynex, Arcady, etc.) to help run regression
                                            > tests.
                                            > > > I'll throw this open to volunteers - anyone who wants to join
                                            the
                                            > > > "Regression Test Squad", let me know and I'll let you know how
                                            it
                                            > > > will work. The only requirement is the ability to compile
                                            > java.
                                            > > > For those who can't get ant to work, I can send you a script
                                            > that
                                            > > > will compile pcgen with javac. Either way you need to have the
                                            > > > developer's version of java 1.3 installed.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > -Bryan
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > dave
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