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Quick question on Sheildbash attack bonus?

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  • marroon69
    I am creating a new fighter with an battle ax and shield. I will use the shield bash is certain situations so I added it as carried...what I can not figure out
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 6, 2014

      I am creating a new fighter with an battle ax and shield. I will use the shield bash is certain situations so I added it as carried...what I can not figure out is why the attack bonus is lower when it is the primary weapon..


      from the trouble shooting sheet


      Attacks Battleaxe  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x3; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +6 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] +1[MISC] 

      Damage: 1d8+4 


      Shield (Light/Steel/Shield Spikes)  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x2; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +1 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] 

      Damage: 1d4+4 



      Shieldbash (Light/Shield Spikes)  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x2; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +1 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] -4[MAGIC] 

      Damage: 1d4+4 



      Not sure about the shield it seems to add 1+4+0 and get 1? The shield bash has a  -4[MAGIC] ? Any ideas?

       

    • BeantownJeep
      It s the penalty for two weapon fighting without the two weapon fighter feat. Even then I ve had issues with PCGen calculating this properly for a Dwarven
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 6, 2014
        It's the penalty for two weapon fighting without the two weapon fighter feat.  Even then I've had issues with PCGen calculating this properly for a Dwarven Waraxe wielded in Main Hand.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 6, 2014, at 10:52 AM, "marroon69@... [pcgen]" <pcgen@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I am creating a new fighter with an battle ax and shield. I will use the shield bash is certain situations so I added it as carried...what I can not figure out is why the attack bonus is lower when it is the primary weapon..


        from the trouble shooting sheet


        Attacks Battleaxe  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x3; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +6 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] +1[MISC] 

        Damage: 1d8+4 


        Shield (Light/Steel/Shield Spikes)  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x2; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +1 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] 

        Damage: 1d4+4 



        Shieldbash (Light/Shield Spikes)  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x2; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +1 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] -4[MAGIC] 

        Damage: 1d4+4 



        Not sure about the shield it seems to add 1+4+0 and get 1? The shield bash has a  -4[MAGIC] ? Any ideas?

         

      • marroon69
        I have Two Weapon Fighting as a feat. The hand ax calculates correctly Handaxe Melee; Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x3; Reach: 5 ft. To
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 6, 2014
          I have "Two Weapon Fighting" as a feat. The hand ax calculates correctly


          Handaxe  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x3; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +5 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] 
          Damage: 1d6+4 


          it seems to be shields and shield bash only.
        • Andrew
          Shieldbash, the bane of easy coding. Couple of questions: 1) Is the character proficient? (Has proficiency through Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, or has a
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 6, 2014
            Shieldbash, the bane of easy coding.

            Couple of questions:
            1) Is the character proficient? (Has proficiency through Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, or has a class feature that is granted all martial weapons)
            2) Is there a rule that allows the character to use shield bash as a primary weapon? (Last I knew, the shield bash is always considered an Off-Hand weapon. Though rules are changed often enough...)

            If the the above conditions are met, then I can address the problem.

            Cheers,
            Andrew



            On 7/6/2014 8:32 AM, marroon69@... [pcgen] wrote:
            I have "Two Weapon Fighting" as a feat. The hand ax calculates correctly


            Handaxe  Melee;  Number of Attacks: 1; Crit: 20; Crit Multiplier: x3; Reach: 5 ft.  To Hit: +5 = +1[BAB] +4[STAT] +0[SIZE] 
            Damage: 1d6+4 


            it seems to be shields and shield bash only.

          • marroon69
            It is a fighter so it should be proficient with shields Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 7, 2014
              It is a fighter so it should be proficient with shields

              Weapon and Armor Proficiency  A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields)

              There is a FAQ on this subject


              Which explains it does not always have to be and that is works like all weapons

              But to me it looks like it applies an -4 all the time...even is the offhand penalty should be -2 due to being light weapon and two weapon fighting.

              I hope this helps
            • Andrew
              Shieldbash penalty removed.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 7, 2014
                Shieldbash penalty removed.

                On 7/7/2014 4:14 PM, marroon69@... [pcgen] wrote:
                It is a fighter so it should be proficient with shields

                Weapon and Armor Proficiency  A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields)

                There is a FAQ on this subject


                Which explains it does not always have to be and that is works like all weapons

                But to me it looks like it applies an -4 all the time...even is the offhand penalty should be -2 due to being light weapon and two weapon fighting.

                I hope this helps

              • marroon69
                Is this in the current release? Can I make updates to my files? Just wondering
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 13, 2014
                  Is this in the current release? Can I make updates to my files? Just wondering
                • marroon69
                  SO I took at look I am thinking this is the change you made.... Shieldbash (Light) PROFICIENCY:WEAPON|Shieldbash
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 13, 2014
                    SO I took at look I am thinking this is the change you made....

                    Shieldbash (Light) PROFICIENCY:WEAPON|Shieldbash TYPE:Weapon.Melee.Light.Martial.Unarmed.Bludgeoning.Finesseable.Shieldbash COST:0 WT:0 CRITMULT:x2 CRITRANGE:1 DAMAGE:1d3 WIELD:Light SIZE:M SOURCEPAGE:p.142 BONUS:WEAPON|TOHIT|-4
                    Shieldbash (Heavy) PROFICIENCY:WEAPON|Shieldbash TYPE:Weapon.Melee.OneHanded.Martial.Unarmed.Bludgeoning.Shieldbash COST:0 WT:0 CRITMULT:x2 CRITRANGE:1 DAMAGE:1d4 WIELD:OneHanded SIZE:M SOURCEPAGE:p.142 BONUS:WEAPON|TOHIT|-4

                    You removed the Bonus section out of the shield bash block. Sound about right?

                  • marroon69
                    hmmm maybe not? now it is all messed up I must screwed up the files....trying to reinstall
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 13, 2014
                      hmmm maybe not? now it is all messed up I must screwed up the files....trying to reinstall
                    • marroon69
                      Yea I am not sure...that change did not change anything. It seems shields are sort of messed up...when I place my shield in Carried the attack bonus drops to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 13, 2014
                        Yea I am not sure...that change did not change anything. It seems shields are sort of messed up...when I place my shield in "Carried" the attack bonus drops to -9. not sure why? The hand axe bonuses are still right when it is carried? I must be doing something wrong I guess not really sure. Is there a better debug output then the "troubleshooting" page? 
                      • Andrew
                        BONUS:WEAPON|TOHIT|-4 was removed as that was the main issue. If you are making manual changes make sure you aren t putting normal SPACES inbetween tags.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 13, 2014
                          BONUS:WEAPON|TOHIT|-4 was removed as that was the main issue.

                          If you are making manual changes make sure you aren't putting normal SPACES inbetween tags.

                          Cheers,
                          Andrew

                          On 7/13/2014 10:41 AM, marroon69@... [pcgen] wrote:
                          Yea I am not sure...that change did not change anything. It seems shields are sort of messed up...when I place my shield in "Carried" the attack bonus drops to -9. not sure why? The hand axe bonuses are still right when it is carried? I must be doing something wrong I guess not really sure. Is there a better debug output then the "troubleshooting" page? 

                        • jeremy.regnerus
                          So to confirm, this is being modified in the latest version of PCGen? I have had this issue for some time, and have submitted a bug on the JIRA site about
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 15, 2014
                            So to confirm, this is being modified in the latest version of PCGen?  I have had this issue for some time, and have submitted a bug on the JIRA site about this specific issue.  I've also commented here under a different account before regarding this, and there was talk about removing Shield and Off Hand as two different equip-able slots to aid in solving this.
                          • Andrew
                            Hi, I removed the incorrect -4 to the Attack. That was the latest identified issue. I cannot address the fact the Shield will want to go into the Shield slot.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 15, 2014
                              Hi,

                              I removed the incorrect -4 to the Attack. That was the latest identified issue. I cannot address the fact the Shield will want to go into the Shield slot. HOWEVER, using the preference to have weapons treated as in hand when carried should correctly display the shield. There was also a code fix to address the incorrect handed-ness for unequipped but carried weapons (Causing an incorrect to hit total as well). Between those two fixes, I believe the issues raised to date have been handled.

                              Anything further will require contemplative introspection to determine a proper course of action.
                              As the solutions can be more troublesome then they are worth.

                              The ideal solution, ONE item to handle all aspects. Which is what I have managed to accomplish at this point.

                              Solutions:
                              Make separate items - Weapon Versions (Of which there are two), and then of course your Shield Version
                              Means I can have improper bonuses to the shield, inconsistent items, etc.

                              The current solution is the best I can manage for the time being. It should:
                              1) Use the Proper Stats (Based upon Shield Type)
                              2) No longer show an incorrect attack Penalty (If you have the correct proficiency, the shield bash is treated as proficient)
                              Limitations:
                              3) Cannot be equipped to anywhere other than SHIELD Slot (That is a Code Issue at this point, though if you want to be technical, we really should eliminate shield slot and make it use a "HAND" slot, same as weapons.)
                              4) Shield Proficiency as a Weapon is not properly handled, as such any use of Weapon Focus/Specialization feats that use the Weapon Proficiency need a data Hack. (That is also a Code Issue, Item may only contain ONE proficiency type).

                              #4 should benefit somewhat from the New Formula Parser, at least in the areas of Non-proficiency penalties. Once the system is up and running, I might be able to do even more. I've been seeing some very promising features from this new system - This one has the example I want: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Formula_Parser_Equip_Vars_Demo, the rest of the proposal is here: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Formula_Parser_Equip_Vars_Proposal

                              Like I said, further discussion would need to discuss the merits of other viable solutions. There are solutions, and I'm sure with proper thought, an elegant solution will be found. The question though is does it require the time and effort that would be required to put it in the spotlight.

                              I feel that the solutions I've implemented SHOULD handle the end user experience enough to work till we get to a point where a better solution is implemented.

                              My thoughts hinge upon the completion of the Formula Parser system being in full operation. Thus, I'm pushing Shield Bash to requiring Formula Parser work before I consider anything else. If the solution is inadequate for certain users, they are free to raise the specific issue at stake - As an example: Weapon Focus isn't adding a +1 to hit.

                              The question I have to ask, is pcgen version 6.03.03 (released today) not adequately handling your needs? If so, what exactly is it not accomplishing today that you want changed?

                              If it's slot location,  raise a Code bug; if it's still not calculating the attack bonus, raise another data bug and I'll spend my precious time I allot while I'm in school to investigate. 

                              (Yes, I'm back in school, so all PCGen projects combined get about an hour in a day from me. That includes replying to messages, investigating bugs, or implementing new features. An hour isn't very long when you realize that in replying to just two emails on the main list I've already spent about 30-45 minutes. And if you want a true comparison, I typically spend 3 to 5 hours on project work and reply to any messages when I'm awake.)

                              Cheers,
                              Andrew

                              On 7/15/2014 7:20 AM, jeremy_regnerus@... [pcgen] wrote:
                              So to confirm, this is being modified in the latest version of PCGen?  I have had this issue for some time, and have submitted a bug on the JIRA site about this specific issue.  I've also commented here under a different account before regarding this, and there was talk about removing Shield and Off Hand as two different equip-able slots to aid in solving this.

                            • marroon69
                              I downloaded the new version, changed the setting to use carried weapons equipped and the shieldbash(light) looks good! Everything calculated correctly. For
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 15, 2014
                                I downloaded the new version, changed the setting to use carried weapons equipped and the shieldbash(light) looks good! Everything calculated correctly. For some reason the Shield still has a -4 for some reason (not sure how to debug) but it is not an issue since shieldbash looks right.

                                Thank you for you time and your great ideas! 
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