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Creating Characters will Monster Classes

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  • smalenberg@home.com
    I must be missing something. How do you create a character that you can give a level as Monstrous Humanoid, for example. If I want an NPC Orc, for example,
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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      I must be missing something. How do you create a character that you
      can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I want an
      NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and then
      add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that starts
      with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?

      I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't figure out
      how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in Race
      files.

      Thanks,
      Steve
    • Mark Hulsman
      ... You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous Humanoid. Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character with that race. And
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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        > I must be missing something. How do you create a character that you
        > can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I want an
        > NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and then
        > add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that starts
        > with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?

        You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous Humanoid.
        Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character with that
        race. And you can add class levels to any character even if they have
        monster levels.

        > I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't figure out
        > how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in Race
        > files.

        There's a ton of different tags you would use to make a dragon. I would
        suggest looking at Customize.html in the documentation, it will explain what
        all the tags do.
      • smalenberg@home.com
        OK, thanks I have been reviewing the documentation, but I think part of the confusion was coming from the monster files (d&dmm.pcc, etc from the Monsters
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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          OK, thanks I have been reviewing the documentation, but I think part
          of the confusion was coming from the "monster files" (d&dmm.pcc, etc
          from the Monsters folder in campaign central) I downloaded which are
          probably old and not working properly in this version.

          I did some editing, and now I can create a character of
          race "Bugbear" and "Monstrous Humanoid" is available as a class, but
          when I hit the "+" to add a level, nothing happens. The debug console
          shows "Exception occurred during event dispatching:
          java.lang.NullPointerException". Any suggestions?

          Thanks,
          Steve


          --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
          > > I must be missing something. How do you create a character that
          you
          > > can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I want
          an
          > > NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and
          then
          > > add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that
          starts
          > > with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?
          >
          > You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous
          Humanoid.
          > Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character with
          that
          > race. And you can add class levels to any character even if they
          have
          > monster levels.
          >
          > > I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't figure
          out
          > > how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in Race
          > > files.
          >
          > There's a ton of different tags you would use to make a dragon. I
          would
          > suggest looking at Customize.html in the documentation, it will
          explain what
          > all the tags do.
        • Alan and Dorothy
          First PCGen still doesn t do this correctly. I will explain the full steps in referance to Bugbear. (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.) 1 Make a
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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            First PCGen still doesn't do this correctly. I will explain the full
            steps in referance to Bugbear.

            (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.)
            1 Make a directory for yourself in the PCGen folder.
            (Yourcampaignname)
            2 Make a *.pcc file in the PCGen folder. (Yourcampaignname.pcc)
            3 In the Directory you create a *race.lst. (Yourcampaignnamerace.lst)
            4 Add the line for Bugbear to the *race.lst file.
            5 Connect the *race.lst to the *.pcc

            The gotchaes.
            1 Hitdice is broken up 1d8 goes to size; "HITDICE:1,8", as per page
            11 of the Monster Manual.
            2 Two hitdice goes to Humanoid class, TYPE:Humanoid
            HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2 (Only allows 2 levels of class Humanoid.)
            **Humanoid is currently not implimented.**
            3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment = +3
            ECL)
            4 AC:13 (10 + +3 (Natural)) VISION:Darkvision 60ft. STR +4, DEX +2,
            CON +2, INT 0, WIS 0, CHA -2
            5 Skill points should be 6 + Int then + 1x2(for levels of Humanoid)
            **Initial skills is currently not implimented.**
            6 You should get initial skill points for the first non-monster
            class. [MY ruling as it is consistent with rules for making monster
            PC races.]**Not implimented.**

            This should give you a start.


            --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
            > > I must be missing something. How do you create a character that
            you
            > > can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I want
            an
            > > NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and
            then
            > > add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that
            starts
            > > with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?
            >
            > You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous
            Humanoid.
            > Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character with
            that
            > race. And you can add class levels to any character even if they
            have
            > monster levels.
            >
            > > I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't figure
            out
            > > how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in Race
            > > files.
            >
            > There's a ton of different tags you would use to make a dragon. I
            would
            > suggest looking at Customize.html in the documentation, it will
            explain what
            > all the tags do.
          • Mark Hulsman
            ... Oh yeah I forgot to tell him about this tag. Sorry about that. ... Actually giving him 2 levels of Humanoid does not increase his CR by 2. It follows
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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              > First PCGen still doesn't do this correctly. I will explain the full
              > steps in referance to Bugbear.
              >
              > (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.)
              > 1 Make a directory for yourself in the PCGen folder.
              > (Yourcampaignname)
              > 2 Make a *.pcc file in the PCGen folder. (Yourcampaignname.pcc)
              > 3 In the Directory you create a *race.lst. (Yourcampaignnamerace.lst)
              > 4 Add the line for Bugbear to the *race.lst file.
              > 5 Connect the *race.lst to the *.pcc
              >
              > The gotchaes.
              > 1 Hitdice is broken up 1d8 goes to size; "HITDICE:1,8", as per page
              > 11 of the Monster Manual.
              > 2 Two hitdice goes to Humanoid class, TYPE:Humanoid
              > HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2 (Only allows 2 levels of class Humanoid.)
              > **Humanoid is currently not implimented.**

              Oh yeah I forgot to tell him about this tag. Sorry about that.

              > 3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment = +3
              > ECL)

              Actually giving him 2 "levels" of Humanoid does not increase his CR by 2.
              It follows the rules in the MM for increasing hit dice, since these "levels"
              are our way of allowing that hit dice increase. The rules in the MM are
              that you increase xp by the percentage of hit dice increased, what this
              translates into (and I checked it on the CR/xp table) is every time you
              double the hit dice you increase CR by 2.

              > 4 AC:13 (10 + +3 (Natural)) VISION:Darkvision 60ft. STR +4, DEX +2,
              > CON +2, INT 0, WIS 0, CHA -2
              > 5 Skill points should be 6 + Int then + 1x2(for levels of Humanoid)
              > **Initial skills is currently not implimented.**
              > 6 You should get initial skill points for the first non-monster
              > class. [MY ruling as it is consistent with rules for making monster
              > PC races.]**Not implimented.**
            • Mark Hulsman
              ... Oh yeah I forgot to tell him about this tag. Sorry about that. ... Actually giving him 2 levels of Humanoid does not increase his CR by 2. It follows
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                > First PCGen still doesn't do this correctly. I will explain the full
                > steps in referance to Bugbear.
                >
                > (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.)
                > 1 Make a directory for yourself in the PCGen folder.
                > (Yourcampaignname)
                > 2 Make a *.pcc file in the PCGen folder. (Yourcampaignname.pcc)
                > 3 In the Directory you create a *race.lst. (Yourcampaignnamerace.lst)
                > 4 Add the line for Bugbear to the *race.lst file.
                > 5 Connect the *race.lst to the *.pcc
                >
                > The gotchaes.
                > 1 Hitdice is broken up 1d8 goes to size; "HITDICE:1,8", as per page
                > 11 of the Monster Manual.
                > 2 Two hitdice goes to Humanoid class, TYPE:Humanoid
                > HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2 (Only allows 2 levels of class Humanoid.)
                > **Humanoid is currently not implimented.**

                Oh yeah I forgot to tell him about this tag. Sorry about that.

                > 3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment = +3
                > ECL)

                Actually giving him 2 "levels" of Humanoid does not increase his CR by 2.
                It follows the rules in the MM for increasing hit dice, since these "levels"
                are our way of allowing that hit dice increase. The rules in the MM are
                that you increase xp by the percentage of hit dice increased, what this
                translates into (and I checked it on the CR/xp table) is every time you
                double the hit dice you increase CR by 2.

                > 4 AC:13 (10 + +3 (Natural)) VISION:Darkvision 60ft. STR +4, DEX +2,
                > CON +2, INT 0, WIS 0, CHA -2
                > 5 Skill points should be 6 + Int then + 1x2(for levels of Humanoid)
                > **Initial skills is currently not implimented.**
                > 6 You should get initial skill points for the first non-monster
                > class. [MY ruling as it is consistent with rules for making monster
                > PC races.]**Not implimented.**
              • Alan and Dorothy
                The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC (ECL) vs. Monster (CR). Currently there is no way to say I m creating an opponent and am
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                  The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC
                  (ECL) vs. Monster (CR). Currently there is no way to say I'm creating
                  an opponent and am using CR information; or I'm creating a PC and
                  using ECL information.

                  This is simular to the quick rollup (mass production) vs. full
                  creation. (Artistic Creation) There needs to be a switch to tell
                  PCGen make as many assumtions as possible in the creation of the
                  monster or to enforce rules.


                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > 3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment =
                  +3
                  > > ECL)
                  >
                  > Actually giving him 2 "levels" of Humanoid does not increase his CR
                  by 2.
                  > It follows the rules in the MM for increasing hit dice, since
                  these "levels"
                  > are our way of allowing that hit dice increase. The rules in the
                  MM are
                  > that you increase xp by the percentage of hit dice increased, what
                  this
                  > translates into (and I checked it on the CR/xp table) is every time
                  you
                  > double the hit dice you increase CR by 2.
                • Alan and Dorothy
                  Can t believe I forgot. 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster classes.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                    Can't believe I forgot.
                    7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                    cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster classes.
                    Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**

                    I've done an implimentation of monster class skills for my own
                    champagn. My basic rule is that most monsters swim, climb, hide,
                    jump, listen, search, spot, wilderness lore. What is needed is a way
                    to make race skills (SKILL:) class skills for monster classes and
                    accept 0 as meaning the skill is a class skill but no starting value.


                    --- In pcgen@y..., "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@m...> wrote:
                    > First PCGen still doesn't do this correctly. I will explain the
                    full
                    > steps in referance to Bugbear.
                    >
                    > (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.)
                    > 1 Make a directory for yourself in the PCGen folder.
                    > (Yourcampaignname)
                    > 2 Make a *.pcc file in the PCGen folder. (Yourcampaignname.pcc)
                    > 3 In the Directory you create a *race.lst.
                    (Yourcampaignnamerace.lst)
                    > 4 Add the line for Bugbear to the *race.lst file.
                    > 5 Connect the *race.lst to the *.pcc
                    >
                    > The gotchaes.
                    > 1 Hitdice is broken up 1d8 goes to size; "HITDICE:1,8", as per page
                    > 11 of the Monster Manual.
                    > 2 Two hitdice goes to Humanoid class, TYPE:Humanoid
                    > HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2 (Only allows 2 levels of class Humanoid.)
                    > **Humanoid is currently not implimented.**
                    > 3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment = +3
                    > ECL)
                    > 4 AC:13 (10 + +3 (Natural)) VISION:Darkvision 60ft. STR +4, DEX +2,
                    > CON +2, INT 0, WIS 0, CHA -2
                    > 5 Skill points should be 6 + Int then + 1x2(for levels of Humanoid)
                    > **Initial skills is currently not implimented.**
                    > 6 You should get initial skill points for the first non-monster
                    > class. [MY ruling as it is consistent with rules for making monster
                    > PC races.]**Not implimented.**
                    >
                    > This should give you a start.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                    > > > I must be missing something. How do you create a character that
                    > you
                    > > > can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I
                    want
                    > an
                    > > > NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and
                    > then
                    > > > add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that
                    > starts
                    > > > with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?
                    > >
                    > > You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous
                    > Humanoid.
                    > > Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character
                    with
                    > that
                    > > race. And you can add class levels to any character even if they
                    > have
                    > > monster levels.
                    > >
                    > > > I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't
                    figure
                    > out
                    > > > how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in
                    Race
                    > > > files.
                    > >
                    > > There's a ton of different tags you would use to make a dragon.
                    I
                    > would
                    > > suggest looking at Customize.html in the documentation, it will
                    > explain what
                    > > all the tags do.
                  • Mark Hulsman
                    ... Actually, monster class have No class skills, the class skills should be given to them through the CSKILL tag in the race.lst
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                      > Can't believe I forgot.
                      > 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                      > cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster classes.
                      > Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**

                      Actually, monster class have No class skills, the class skills should be
                      given to them through the CSKILL tag in the race.lst
                    • Steven Scott
                      ... ECL? CR? Can somebody explain? Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                        >From: "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@...>
                        >Reply-To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                        >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:00:45 -0000
                        >
                        >The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC
                        >(ECL) vs. Monster (CR).

                        ECL?

                        CR?

                        Can somebody explain?

                        Thanks

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      • Damian
                        CR is Challenge rating. i m still up in the air about ECL. ... From: Steven Scott [mailto:SteveScottUK@Hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 5:43 PM
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                          CR is Challenge rating.  i'm still up in the air about ECL.
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Steven Scott [mailto:SteveScottUK@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 5:43 PM
                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes




                          >From: "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@...>
                          >Reply-To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                          >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:00:45 -0000
                          >
                          >The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC
                          >(ECL) vs. Monster (CR).

                          ECL?

                          CR?

                          Can somebody explain?

                          Thanks

                          _________________________________________________________________
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                        • Franco, Matthew E
                          ECL = effective character level page 21 forgotten realms ... From: Damian [mailto:damian@cableone.net] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:48 PM To:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                            ECL = effective character level
                            page 21 forgotten realms
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Damian [mailto:damian@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:48 PM
                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes

                            CR is Challenge rating.  i'm still up in the air about ECL.
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Steven Scott [mailto:SteveScottUK@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 5:43 PM
                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes




                            >From: "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@...>
                            >Reply-To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                            >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:00:45 -0000
                            >
                            >The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC
                            >(ECL) vs. Monster (CR).

                            ECL?

                            CR?

                            Can somebody explain?

                            Thanks

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          • Dave Fallon
                            ... The concept was effectively introducted in the DMG, just as a variant rule (and the ECL terminology didn t come about until forgotten realms.) It s
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                              On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:50:29PM -0400, Franco, Matthew E wrote:
                              > ECL = effective character level
                              > page 21 forgotten realms
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Damian [mailto:damian@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:48 PM
                              > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                              >
                              >
                              > CR is Challenge rating. i'm still up in the air about ECL.

                              The concept was effectively introducted in the DMG, just as a variant rule (and the ECL terminology didn't come about until forgotten realms.) It's basically, how much more powerful a particular race is than the standard PC races. It's different from CR because a monster of the race takes into effect the race's abilities for basically only one combat (or so), while a PC of that race can use the same ability for far longer. Regeneration, for example, is an ability far more "powerful" for PCs than for monsters.

                              dave
                            • john.sussenberger@libertymutual.com
                              CR = Challenge Rating. This is a system to approximately determine if an encounter is going to be a challenge to the party. It is based off of a party of 4
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                CR = Challenge Rating.

                                This is a system to approximately determine if an encounter is going to be a
                                challenge to the party. It is based off of a party of 4 characters all of
                                the same level and it works pretty well. I can assume that a party of 4
                                10th level characters, with equipment appropriate to their level, and close
                                to default array or standard point buy (25) attribute points, will be able
                                to take on a CR 10 monster and use up about 20% of their resources. NOTE: 1
                                character dying and the others being untouched is about 25% of their
                                resources ;)

                                It is a VERY handy tool and can be used for more than just combat :) The
                                higher the PC's level, the more players you have, their equipment and most
                                importantly their attributes, makes determining challenge harder.

                                ECL = Effective Character Level.

                                This term was created during the writing of the Forgotten Realms Campaign
                                Setting (since it is the first time I have heard it used). You add your ECL
                                to your player characters level to determine the amount of experience needed
                                to gain levels. This is another good system that is a good approximation of
                                PC racial strength. Eventually there will be ECLs for all monster races, I
                                think.

                                These two terms are NOT intermixed, a player character of 10th level is NOT
                                a CR 10 creature, since he has way more equipment than an NPC and his stats
                                are not average :) The same thing goes for ECL, if you have an ECL, you are
                                talking about a player character not an NPC.

                                I hope this helps.

                                -John-




                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Steven Scott [SMTP:SteveScottUK@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:43 PM
                                > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@...>
                                > >Reply-To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                > >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Subject: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes
                                > >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:00:45 -0000
                                > >
                                > >The real problem is that we are talking about 2 diffrent things. PC
                                > >(ECL) vs. Monster (CR).
                                >
                                > ECL?
                                >
                                > CR?
                                >
                                > Can somebody explain?
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                > _________________________________________________________________
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                              • Alan and Dorothy
                                Does this mean that in practise SKILL: and CSKILL: are going to be largely repeated text. ... classes. ... should be
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                  Does this mean that in practise SKILL: and CSKILL: are going to be
                                  largely repeated text.

                                  --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                                  > > Can't believe I forgot.
                                  > > 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                                  > > cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster
                                  classes.
                                  > > Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**
                                  >
                                  > Actually, monster class have No class skills, the class skills
                                  should be
                                  > given to them through the CSKILL tag in the race.lst
                                • Mark Hulsman
                                  ... At least for now until one of actually makes a tag that adds ranks to a skill, that tag would probably make it a class skill as well.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                    > Does this mean that in practise SKILL: and CSKILL: are going to be
                                    > largely repeated text.

                                    At least for now until one of actually makes a tag that adds ranks to a
                                    skill, that tag would probably make it a class skill as well.
                                  • Alan and Dorothy
                                    At this point I m lost. Elf CSKILL:Hide|Listen|Search|Spot TYPE:Humanoid HITDICE:1,8 Is it SKILL:Listen,Search,Spot=2 per the PHB or
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                      At this point I'm lost.
                                      Elf CSKILL:Hide|Listen|Search|Spot TYPE:Humanoid HITDICE:1,8

                                      Is it SKILL:Listen,Search,Spot=2 per the PHB or
                                      SKILL:Hide=1=Listen=Search=3=Sport=2 per the MM.


                                      --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                                      > > Can't believe I forgot.
                                      > > 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                                      > > cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster
                                      classes.
                                      > > Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**
                                      >
                                      > Actually, monster class have No class skills, the class skills
                                      should be
                                      > given to them through the CSKILL tag in the race.lst
                                    • Alan and Dorothy
                                      Actually Monster class skills are based on race and I hope you are suggesting they are passed via CSKILL keyword. If this is true then the documentation is
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                        Actually Monster class skills are based on race and I hope you are
                                        suggesting they are passed via CSKILL keyword.
                                        If this is true then the documentation is misleading.

                                        --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                                        > > Can't believe I forgot.
                                        > > 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                                        > > cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster
                                        classes.
                                        > > Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**
                                        >
                                        > Actually, monster class have No class skills, the class skills
                                        should be
                                        > given to them through the CSKILL tag in the race.lst
                                      • Alan and Dorothy
                                        To get the Charactor book correct you need to do a couple things at the same time. You need the correct number of hitdice, experience level and skill points.
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                          To get the Charactor book correct you need to do a couple things at
                                          the same time. You need the correct number of hitdice, experience
                                          level and skill points. These are intertwined very ugly manner.

                                          First you need to subtract 1 from his hit dice (This is based on the
                                          monster's size and is explained on page 11 of MM.) and have that do
                                          nothing.
                                          HITDICE:1,8

                                          Then you need them to have two levels of monster class to have the
                                          correct skill points. This has the side effect of giveing them 2
                                          levels for experience purposes.
                                          TYPE:Humanoid HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2
                                          HITDICEADVANCEMENT:# means that the creature can only take 2 levels
                                          of Humanoid.

                                          At this point the creature is 3 hitdice, count for skill points, but
                                          it only has 2 levels for experience points purposes.
                                          LEVELADJUSTMENT:1

                                          Now we have a 3 hit die creature that counts as a 3 ECL creature and
                                          has 2 dice of experience points.





                                          --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Actually giving him 2 "levels" of Humanoid does not increase his CR
                                          by 2.
                                          > It follows the rules in the MM for increasing hit dice, since
                                          these "levels"
                                          > are our way of allowing that hit dice increase. The rules in the
                                          MM are
                                          > that you increase xp by the percentage of hit dice increased, what
                                          this
                                          > translates into (and I checked it on the CR/xp table) is every time
                                          you
                                          > double the hit dice you increase CR by 2.
                                          >
                                        • Steven Scott
                                          ... Er yes, but I will have to read it all again several times! Cheers Steve _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                            >I hope this helps.
                                            >
                                            >-John-
                                            Er yes, but I will have to read it all again several times!

                                            Cheers
                                            Steve

                                            _________________________________________________________________
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                                          • Gary
                                            Why do monsters get search & spot as class skills when only Rogues (Monks?) get it for PC Classes. Rangers for Wilderness Lore, etc. You may want to consider
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                              Why do monsters get search & spot as class skills when only Rogues
                                              (Monks?) get it for PC Classes. Rangers for Wilderness Lore, etc.
                                              You may want to consider this.


                                              --- In pcgen@y..., "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@m...> wrote:
                                              > Can't believe I forgot.
                                              > 7 The max skill rank is 3 + level for class skill (3+level)/2 for
                                              > cross class.**Class skills are not implemented for monster classes.
                                              > Max Skill rank is not correctly implimented for monster.**
                                              >
                                              > I've done an implimentation of monster class skills for my own
                                              > champagn. My basic rule is that most monsters swim, climb, hide,
                                              > jump, listen, search, spot, wilderness lore. What is needed is a way
                                              > to make race skills (SKILL:) class skills for monster classes and
                                              > accept 0 as meaning the skill is a class skill but no starting
                                              value.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In pcgen@y..., "Alan and Dorothy" <ahoyland@m...> wrote:
                                              > > First PCGen still doesn't do this correctly. I will explain the
                                              > full
                                              > > steps in referance to Bugbear.
                                              > >
                                              > > (Find the Customise.html in the docs for PCGen.)
                                              > > 1 Make a directory for yourself in the PCGen folder.
                                              > > (Yourcampaignname)
                                              > > 2 Make a *.pcc file in the PCGen folder. (Yourcampaignname.pcc)
                                              > > 3 In the Directory you create a *race.lst.
                                              > (Yourcampaignnamerace.lst)
                                              > > 4 Add the line for Bugbear to the *race.lst file.
                                              > > 5 Connect the *race.lst to the *.pcc
                                              > >
                                              > > The gotchaes.
                                              > > 1 Hitdice is broken up 1d8 goes to size; "HITDICE:1,8", as per
                                              page
                                              > > 11 of the Monster Manual.
                                              > > 2 Two hitdice goes to Humanoid class, TYPE:Humanoid
                                              > > HITDICEADVANCEMENT:2 (Only allows 2 levels of class Humanoid.)
                                              > > **Humanoid is currently not implimented.**
                                              > > 3 LEVELADJUSTMENT:1 (2 levels of Humanoid + 1 level adjustment =
                                              +3
                                              > > ECL)
                                              > > 4 AC:13 (10 + +3 (Natural)) VISION:Darkvision 60ft. STR +4, DEX
                                              +2,
                                              > > CON +2, INT 0, WIS 0, CHA -2
                                              > > 5 Skill points should be 6 + Int then + 1x2(for levels of
                                              Humanoid)
                                              > > **Initial skills is currently not implimented.**
                                              > > 6 You should get initial skill points for the first non-monster
                                              > > class. [MY ruling as it is consistent with rules for making
                                              monster
                                              > > PC races.]**Not implimented.**
                                              > >
                                              > > This should give you a start.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In pcgen@y..., "Mark Hulsman" <hulsmanm@p...> wrote:
                                              > > > > I must be missing something. How do you create a character
                                              that
                                              > > you
                                              > > > > can give a level as "Monstrous Humanoid," for example. If I
                                              > want
                                              > > an
                                              > > > > NPC Orc, for example, can I give him a level as a humanoid and
                                              > > then
                                              > > > > add levels in a class if I want? Could I make a Bugbear that
                                              > > starts
                                              > > > > with the bugbear HD and stats and add a level of Rogue?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You have to make a new race and give that race TYPE:Monstrous
                                              > > Humanoid.
                                              > > > Then you can add Monstrous Humanoid hit dice to any character
                                              > with
                                              > > that
                                              > > > race. And you can add class levels to any character even if
                                              they
                                              > > have
                                              > > > monster levels.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > I was following the Dragon/Trumpet Archon thread and can't
                                              > figure
                                              > > out
                                              > > > > how you would create a dragon unless I'm missing something in
                                              > Race
                                              > > > > files.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > There's a ton of different tags you would use to make a dragon.
                                              > I
                                              > > would
                                              > > > suggest looking at Customize.html in the documentation, it will
                                              > > explain what
                                              > > > all the tags do.
                                            • pjak@yahoo.com
                                              ... Effective Character Level. I.e. how many levels it costs to be of a certain race. Drow for instance have an ECL of 2, meaning that it costs them 3000 xp
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                                --- In pcgen@y..., "Damian" <damian@c...> wrote:
                                                > CR is Challenge rating. i'm still up in the air about ECL.

                                                Effective Character Level. I.e. how many levels it 'costs' to be of a
                                                certain race. Drow for instance have an ECL of 2, meaning that it
                                                costs them 3000 xp to become level 1. Ogres are ECL 5 (I think)
                                                meaning that it costs them 15000 xp to become level 1. See the
                                                Forgotten Realms book for details (and for what I got wrong. ;-)

                                                /Jonas
                                              • john.sussenberger@libertymutual.com
                                                I m at work and I don t have much time to write stuff, so you got the quick and dirty version :) ... From: Steven Scott [mailto:SteveScottUK@Hotmail.com] Sent:
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                                  I'm at work and I don't have much time to write stuff, so you got the quick and dirty version :)
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Steven Scott [mailto:SteveScottUK@...]
                                                  Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:51 AM
                                                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: [pcgen] Re: Creating Characters will Monster Classes


                                                  >I hope this helps.
                                                  >
                                                  >-John-
                                                  Er yes, but I will have to read it all again several times!

                                                  Cheers
                                                  Steve

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