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[OT] ReactOS

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  • Andrew
    Hey folks, So, I ve been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was curious if PCGen worked on it. It s still in Alpha
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 8, 2013
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      Hey folks,

      So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was
      curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds fairly stable.

      I don't have the time to fiddle, but if anyone had the time I was curious (Also, wondered how it
      compared with the real deal).

      Cheers,
      --
      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
    • masaru20100
      ... (à) ... (à) I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and tried to use PCGen on it. I installed an old version of firefox (3.6)
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 13, 2013
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        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
        (…)
        > So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was
        > curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds fairly stable.
        (…)

        I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and tried to use PCGen on it.
        I installed an old version of firefox (3.6) because the latest one breaks the system. Once done I downloaded both java 7 and pcgen. Java crash just after starting. Gave java 6 a try, it also crashes.
        I'm wondering if the memory given to the virtual machine could be at the origin of the problem but it seems a system hook or function is missing.
        So unfortunately PCGen does not actually work on it apparently.

        Regards,
        --
        勝20100
      • Andrew
        Thanks for that update Vincent. I do appreciate the time and effort. I m watching this project like hawk, as I m not impressed with Windows8 and this seems to
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 13, 2013
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          Thanks for that update Vincent. I do appreciate the time and effort.

          I'm watching this project like hawk, as I'm not impressed with Windows8 and this seems to be a
          promising alternative and you can't beat FREE. :)

          On 6/13/2013 4:06 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
          > (…)
          >> So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was
          >> curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds fairly stable.
          > (…)
          >
          > I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and tried to use PCGen on it.
          > I installed an old version of firefox (3.6) because the latest one breaks the system. Once done I downloaded both java 7 and pcgen. Java crash just after starting. Gave java 6 a try, it also crashes.
          > I'm wondering if the memory given to the virtual machine could be at the origin of the problem but it seems a system hook or function is missing.
          > So unfortunately PCGen does not actually work on it apparently.
          >
          > Regards,
          > --
          > 勝20100
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >
          >
          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Anestis Kozakis
          From what I have read, they have yet to implement the ability of Java to work. Development is at a snail s pace, so it may be a long long while before Java
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 13, 2013
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            From what I have read, they have yet to implement the ability of Java to
            work.

            Development is at a snail's pace, so it may be a long long while before
            Java works.

            Anestis.


            On 14 June 2013 02:54, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

            > Thanks for that update Vincent. I do appreciate the time and effort.
            >
            > I'm watching this project like hawk, as I'm not impressed with Windows8
            > and this seems to be a
            > promising alternative and you can't beat FREE. :)
            >
            > On 6/13/2013 4:06 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            > > (…)
            > >> So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT
            > kernel called ReactOS. I was
            > >> curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds
            > fairly stable.
            > > (…)
            > >
            > > I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and
            > tried to use PCGen on it.
            > > I installed an old version of firefox (3.6) because the latest one
            > breaks the system. Once done I downloaded both java 7 and pcgen. Java crash
            > just after starting. Gave java 6 a try, it also crashes.
            > > I'm wondering if the memory given to the virtual machine could be at the
            > origin of the problem but it seems a system hook or function is missing.
            > > So unfortunately PCGen does not actually work on it apparently.
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > --
            > > 勝20100
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Related Lists
            > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > >
            > >
            > > PCGen List File Help:
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > >
            > > PCGen Experimental:
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > (for new official data source development)
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help:
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Anestis Kozakis | kenosti@... | http://www.akozakis.id.au/


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • FerretDave
            Free alternative to Windows 8? try Linux. Cheap alternative to Windows 8? try Etch-a-sketch...
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 14, 2013
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              Free alternative to Windows 8? try Linux.

              Cheap alternative to Windows 8? try Etch-a-sketch...

              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for that update Vincent. I do appreciate the time and effort.
              >
              > I'm watching this project like hawk, as I'm not impressed with Windows8 and this seems to be a
              > promising alternative and you can't beat FREE. :)
              >
              > On 6/13/2013 4:06 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
              > > (…)
              > >> So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was
              > >> curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds fairly stable.
              > > (…)
              > >
              > > I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and tried to use PCGen on it.
              > > I installed an old version of firefox (3.6) because the latest one breaks the system. Once done I downloaded both java 7 and pcgen. Java crash just after starting. Gave java 6 a try, it also crashes.
              > > I'm wondering if the memory given to the virtual machine could be at the origin of the problem but it seems a system hook or function is missing.
              > > So unfortunately PCGen does not actually work on it apparently.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > --
              > > 勝20100
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Related Lists
              > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              > >
              > >
              > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              > >
              > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              > > (for new official data source development)
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Andrew
              Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force. Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren t exactly supported
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 14, 2013
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                Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force.
                Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.

                A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is what I'm looking for. I need
                something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use (Along with co-workers).

                I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I did the research and tried to
                make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that could be achieved out of the box
                by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's still very much in the realm of
                geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce, one with Linux and one with
                Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.

                Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty of memory and hard drive space
                to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.

                Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab signatures directly in the field to
                be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have the driver support for the
                wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work, it wasn't a very nice
                experience, it's depressing actually)

                Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers with digitized screens. ReactOS
                has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy employee at my job, I can learn
                computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they need to do their job. They
                lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come to me or a manager to solve
                their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months trying to teach old dogs new
                tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem, we can remotely log into their
                computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do with Linux. (When I was
                researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which is impossible when the IP is
                randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)



                On 6/14/2013 5:06 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                > Free alternative to Windows 8? try Linux.
                >
                > Cheap alternative to Windows 8? try Etch-a-sketch...
                >
                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Thanks for that update Vincent. I do appreciate the time and effort.
                >>
                >> I'm watching this project like hawk, as I'm not impressed with Windows8 and this seems to be a
                >> promising alternative and you can't beat FREE. :)
                >>
                >> On 6/13/2013 4:06 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                >>> (…)
                >>>> So, I've been seeing this Open Source OS based upon the Windows NT kernel called ReactOS. I was
                >>>> curious if PCGen worked on it. It's still in Alpha stage, but sounds fairly stable.
                >>> (…)
                >>>
                >>> I know of the project, so I grabbed the latest Virtual Box image and tried to use PCGen on it.
                >>> I installed an old version of firefox (3.6) because the latest one breaks the system. Once done I downloaded both java 7 and pcgen. Java crash just after starting. Gave java 6 a try, it also crashes.
                >>> I'm wondering if the memory given to the virtual machine could be at the origin of the problem but it seems a system hook or function is missing.
                >>> So unfortunately PCGen does not actually work on it apparently.
                >>>
                >>> Regards,
                >>> --
                >>> 勝20100
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Related Lists
                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>
                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>> (for new official data source development)
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Related Lists
                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >
                >
                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >
                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > (for new official data source development)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • masaru20100
                ... I don’t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other systems when you
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 28, 2013
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force.

                  I don’t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other systems when you never used any (that is what I understand by non-computer literate).
                  For people that are used to a particular OS, it can be a bit different, but it’s mostly because of resistance to change more than anything.

                  > Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.

                  Maybe you ought to change for software that are? I know there is some software that don’t have equivalent thought.

                  > A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is what I'm looking for. I need
                  > something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use (Along with co-workers).

                  If they just need to be able to use it, not install or admin it, I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t fit. Many users only need some web browser, it might not be their case.

                  > I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I did the research and tried to
                  > make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that could be achieved out of the box
                  > by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's still very much in the realm of
                  > geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce, one with Linux and one with
                  > Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.
                  >
                  > Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty of memory and hard drive space
                  > to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.
                  >
                  > Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab signatures directly in the field to
                  > be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have the driver support for the
                  > wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work, it wasn't a very nice
                  > experience, it's depressing actually)

                  You can’t blame Linux for that, only the manufacturer or editors that don’t want to support it. Adobe is one of them, they almost stopped all forms of development for Linux. You expect hardware (and software) made for Windows to work on Linux. It usually works fine, but if it needs any driver, if the manufacturer doesn’t release it, it is hard to make up from scratch. It has been done in the past but it is not easy.
                  If you want to be sure that some hardware is working on Linux, you need to check before buying because most company will not make it apparent on their packaging.

                  > Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers with digitized screens. ReactOS
                  > has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy employee at my job, I can learn
                  > computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                  > know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they need to do their job. They
                  > lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come to me or a manager to solve
                  > their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months trying to teach old dogs new
                  > tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem, we can remotely log into their
                  > computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do with Linux. (When I was
                  > researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which is impossible when the IP is
                  > randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)

                  They’ll probably have to relearn when the next iteration of windows gets installed anyway. For a basic usage, it might take some time to understand a new OS, but just for simple usage that can not take that much time. If there is no one able to fix the computers anyway, that means they probably pay OS+support. It might cost less to form everyone to a new OS and only pay support. But I’m digressing heavily.

                  Anyway, I just wanted to write that I think that using GNU/Linux is not hard to learn, compared to learning to use a computer or a new version of Windows. And when things are not working, neither are simple to fix.
                • Lee Dowd
                  Hope everyone will forgive the OT comments but ..... A simple typo in Linux can do an incredible amount of damage.  For instance if you meant to type rm A*
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 28, 2013
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                    Hope everyone will forgive the OT comments but .....
                    A simple typo in Linux can do an incredible amount of damage.  For instance if you meant to type "rm A*" and typed "rm A *".  I've heard Unix and it's drivative Linux described as "expert friendly systems" I still think that's appropriate.  They don't do nearly as much hand holding as Apple OSs or Windows.  On the other hand a power users can easily do much more.  That said if I the alternative was windows 8 in its current configuration I'd have to consider it. 




                    >________________________________
                    > From: masaru20100 <hooya.masaru20100@...>
                    >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 8:35 AM
                    >Subject: [pcgen] [OT] GNU/Linux and FLOSS (Re: ReactOS)
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    >
                    >
                    >--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force.
                    >
                    >I don’t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other systems when you never used any (that is what I understand by non-computer literate).
                    >For people that are used to a particular OS, it can be a bit different, but it’s mostly because of resistance to change more than anything.
                    >
                    >> Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.
                    >
                    >Maybe you ought to change for software that are? I know there is some software that don’t have equivalent thought.
                    >
                    >> A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is what I'm looking for. I need
                    >> something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use (Along with co-workers).
                    >
                    >If they just need to be able to use it, not install or admin it, I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t fit. Many users only need some web browser, it might not be their case.
                    >
                    >> I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I did the research and tried to
                    >> make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that could be achieved out of the box
                    >> by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's still very much in the realm of
                    >> geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce, one with Linux and one with
                    >> Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.
                    >>
                    >> Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty of memory and hard drive space
                    >> to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.
                    >>
                    >> Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab signatures directly in the field to
                    >> be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have the driver support for the
                    >> wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work, it wasn't a very nice
                    >> experience, it's depressing actually)
                    >
                    >You can’t blame Linux for that, only the manufacturer or editors that don’t want to support it. Adobe is one of them, they almost stopped all forms of development for Linux. You expect hardware (and software) made for Windows to work on Linux. It usually works fine, but if it needs any driver, if the manufacturer doesn’t release it, it is hard to make up from scratch. It has been done in the past but it is not easy.
                    >If you want to be sure that some hardware is working on Linux, you need to check before buying because most company will not make it apparent on their packaging.
                    >
                    >> Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers with digitized screens. ReactOS
                    >> has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy employee at my job, I can learn
                    >> computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                    >> know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they need to do their job. They
                    >> lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come to me or a manager to solve
                    >> their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months trying to teach old dogs new
                    >> tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem, we can remotely log into their
                    >> computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do with Linux. (When I was
                    >> researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which is impossible when the IP is
                    >> randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)
                    >
                    >They’ll probably have to relearn when the next iteration of windows gets installed anyway. For a basic usage, it might take some time to understand a new OS, but just for simple usage that can not take that much time. If there is no one able to fix the computers anyway, that means they probably pay OS+support. It might cost less to form everyone to a new OS and only pay support. But I’m digressing heavily.
                    >
                    >Anyway, I just wanted to write that I think that using GNU/Linux is not hard to learn, compared to learning to use a computer or a new version of Windows. And when things are not working, neither are simple to fix.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Andrew
                    I ll keep the reply brief - I have a bunch of co-workers that can barely operate a Windows Computer, with a Program we need on it to conduct our business. Any
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 28, 2013
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                      I'll keep the reply brief - I have a bunch of co-workers that can barely operate a Windows Computer,
                      with a Program we need on it to conduct our business. Any 'change' needs to be minimal to not
                      interrupt mission critical operations.

                      I did attempt Linux, and would have saved the company money, were it not for the fact the support
                      for the pen (Signing on a digitized screen) was faulty. I'm computer literate and can figure out
                      problems. My co-workers need to be trained to debug and operate as a basic user. Hence any
                      replacement must not introduce a drastic learning curve - in fact, login, open said program and
                      that's all they need.

                      On 6/28/2013 5:35 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force.
                      >
                      > I don’t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other systems when you never used any (that is what I understand by non-computer literate).
                      > For people that are used to a particular OS, it can be a bit different, but it’s mostly because of resistance to change more than anything.
                      >
                      >> Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.
                      >
                      > Maybe you ought to change for software that are? I know there is some software that don’t have equivalent thought.
                      >
                      >> A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is what I'm looking for. I need
                      >> something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use (Along with co-workers).
                      >
                      > If they just need to be able to use it, not install or admin it, I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t fit. Many users only need some web browser, it might not be their case.
                      >
                      >> I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I did the research and tried to
                      >> make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that could be achieved out of the box
                      >> by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's still very much in the realm of
                      >> geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce, one with Linux and one with
                      >> Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.
                      >>
                      >> Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty of memory and hard drive space
                      >> to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.
                      >>
                      >> Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab signatures directly in the field to
                      >> be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have the driver support for the
                      >> wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work, it wasn't a very nice
                      >> experience, it's depressing actually)
                      >
                      > You can’t blame Linux for that, only the manufacturer or editors that don’t want to support it. Adobe is one of them, they almost stopped all forms of development for Linux. You expect hardware (and software) made for Windows to work on Linux. It usually works fine, but if it needs any driver, if the manufacturer doesn’t release it, it is hard to make up from scratch. It has been done in the past but it is not easy.
                      > If you want to be sure that some hardware is working on Linux, you need to check before buying because most company will not make it apparent on their packaging.
                      >
                      >> Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers with digitized screens. ReactOS
                      >> has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy employee at my job, I can learn
                      >> computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                      >> know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they need to do their job. They
                      >> lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come to me or a manager to solve
                      >> their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months trying to teach old dogs new
                      >> tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem, we can remotely log into their
                      >> computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do with Linux. (When I was
                      >> researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which is impossible when the IP is
                      >> randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)
                      >
                      > They’ll probably have to relearn when the next iteration of windows gets installed anyway. For a basic usage, it might take some time to understand a new OS, but just for simple usage that can not take that much time. If there is no one able to fix the computers anyway, that means they probably pay OS+support. It might cost less to form everyone to a new OS and only pay support. But I’m digressing heavily.
                      >
                      > Anyway, I just wanted to write that I think that using GNU/Linux is not hard to learn, compared to learning to use a computer or a new version of Windows. And when things are not working, neither are simple to fix.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Related Lists
                      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >
                      >
                      > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >
                      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > (for new official data source development)
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Rick Pikul
                      ... JSYK, most distros default to aliasing rm to rm -i for just that reason. The same sort of typo on a windows box can also do a lot of damage, (although
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 28, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Friday 28 June 2013 13:57, Lee Dowd wrote:
                        > Hope everyone will forgive the OT comments but .....
                        > A simple typo in Linux can do an incredible amount of damage.  For instance
                        > if you meant to type "rm A*" and typed "rm A *".

                        JSYK, most distros default to aliasing "rm" to "rm -i" for just that reason.
                        The same sort of typo on a windows box can also do a lot of damage, (although
                        there's not much that can result in the computer trying to delete itself the
                        way rm -rf / will).

                        > I've heard Unix and it's drivative Linux described as "expert friendly
                        > systems" I still think that's appropriate.  They don't do nearly as much
                        > hand holding as Apple OSs or Windows.

                        If you stay at the level of X there really isn't that much difference. J.
                        Random User is going to be using web browsers, office suites and file
                        managers the same way he would in Windows.

                        --
                        Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)
                      • jciszek123
                        Not so short reply...sorry, guys. Maybe I missed a thread, but most Linux distro s come with a graphical interface nowadays, so why all the hubbub about a
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 29, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Not so short reply...sorry, guys.

                          Maybe I missed a thread, but most Linux distro's come with a graphical interface nowadays, so why all the hubbub about a command-line faux pas? Seriously, you don't *usually* have to do something via CLI unless you *want* to. And rm'ing a file via CLI definitely falls under 'want to'. It's not as if someone's expecting you to jumpstart Solaris without any guidance. The *nix directory structure is different than Windows, sure, but so is MacOS' (and IIRC, MacOS running on a customized BSD-derivative. Or maybe it's Debian? Either way, SURPRISE! It's Linux'y, wrapped in a pretty Apple gui!).

                          Home Use Case:
                          Personally, I'm running Ubuntu at home since 2008/2009. (PCGen runs on it marvellously, btw, thumbs-up!) If you're expecting every Microsoft app to work in Linux, you're merely setting yourself up for disappointment. From my experience, most of the apps that "don't work in Linux" are vendor-specific-built-for-Windows, games or "we can't be bothered to support a minority market share". However, I've found that a vast majority of Windows applications tend to have an open-source equivalent, easily locatable with some google-fu or a repo search. There's still the Linux desktop equivalent of "My Documents", a trashcan, and taskbar/shortcut features for those who simply can't function without icons to click. The Linux equivalent might not do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as the Microsoft version does, but the 80/20 rule usually holds true, which tends to be good enough for most folks. Features in my Nissan aren't EXACTLY THE SAME as features in my Ford either, but, golly, I still manage to drive around...

                          Quick-and-easy solution for games requiring direct hardware access: dual boot. Trust me, a reboot to a Windows partition now and again won't hurt you. If you can't be bothered with a reboot to play a game, that's more of a personal issue, IMHO, not a technical one. Alternative for not-requiring-direct-hardware-access: WINE/VMWare/VirtualBox, but even those are getting better at hardware emulation nowadays, some of the newer games probably work in a virtual environment (I haven't tried)

                          As someone mentioned previously, Joe Schmoe causal user is typically only using a browser, email and maybe some sort of office application. You don't need Windows for those. Click on the little orange fox instead of the big blue 'E'... not a huge learning curve there. When my not-so-techie husband's hard drive died a couple of years back, I installed Ubuntu on his machine too. And given that he hasn't taken a sledgehammer to his tower, or demanded a Windows re-install, I'll chalk one up in the victory column.

                          Business Use Case:
                          Frankly, it depends on the business. I'd love to be able to run Linux at work. But I work for a very big company with very anal IT policies, so I just go with the flow, use whatever they issue to me and breathe a sigh of relief when my workday's over. In Andrew's case, yup, I can see how a signing tablet linked up via a cell network would present a challenge. (There's a linux RDP equiv, btw ;-) ) But for most small business owners, or anyone else whose dayjobs involve shuffling spreadsheets, answering email or other administrative mundane in a cubicle farm, they likely don't need Windows. Unless you're spending money that isn't yours, then hey, overpay for whatever you can! ;-)

                          -JackieC


                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'll keep the reply brief - I have a bunch of co-workers that can barely operate a Windows Computer,
                          > with a Program we need on it to conduct our business. Any 'change' needs to be minimal to not
                          > interrupt mission critical operations.
                          >
                          > I did attempt Linux, and would have saved the company money, were it not for the fact the support
                          > for the pen (Signing on a digitized screen) was faulty. I'm computer literate and can figure out
                          > problems. My co-workers need to be trained to debug and operate as a basic user. Hence any
                          > replacement must not introduce a drastic learning curve - in fact, login, open said program and
                          > that's all they need.
                          >
                          > On 6/28/2013 5:35 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a non-computer literate work force.
                          > >
                          > > I don’t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other systems when you never used any (that is what I understand by non-computer literate).
                          > > For people that are used to a particular OS, it can be a bit different, but it’s mostly because of resistance to change more than anything.
                          > >
                          > >> Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe you ought to change for software that are? I know there is some software that don’t have equivalent thought.
                          > >
                          > >> A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is what I'm looking for. I need
                          > >> something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use (Along with co-workers).
                          > >
                          > > If they just need to be able to use it, not install or admin it, I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t fit. Many users only need some web browser, it might not be their case.
                          > >
                          > >> I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I did the research and tried to
                          > >> make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that could be achieved out of the box
                          > >> by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's still very much in the realm of
                          > >> geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce, one with Linux and one with
                          > >> Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.
                          > >>
                          > >> Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty of memory and hard drive space
                          > >> to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.
                          > >>
                          > >> Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab signatures directly in the field to
                          > >> be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have the driver support for the
                          > >> wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work, it wasn't a very nice
                          > >> experience, it's depressing actually)
                          > >
                          > > You can’t blame Linux for that, only the manufacturer or editors that don’t want to support it. Adobe is one of them, they almost stopped all forms of development for Linux. You expect hardware (and software) made for Windows to work on Linux. It usually works fine, but if it needs any driver, if the manufacturer doesn’t release it, it is hard to make up from scratch. It has been done in the past but it is not easy.
                          > > If you want to be sure that some hardware is working on Linux, you need to check before buying because most company will not make it apparent on their packaging.
                          > >
                          > >> Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers with digitized screens. ReactOS
                          > >> has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy employee at my job, I can learn
                          > >> computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                          > >> know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they need to do their job. They
                          > >> lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come to me or a manager to solve
                          > >> their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months trying to teach old dogs new
                          > >> tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem, we can remotely log into their
                          > >> computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do with Linux. (When I was
                          > >> researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which is impossible when the IP is
                          > >> randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)
                          > >
                          > > They’ll probably have to relearn when the next iteration of windows gets installed anyway. For a basic usage, it might take some time to understand a new OS, but just for simple usage that can not take that much time. If there is no one able to fix the computers anyway, that means they probably pay OS+support. It might cost less to form everyone to a new OS and only pay support. But I’m digressing heavily.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, I just wanted to write that I think that using GNU/Linux is not hard to learn, compared to learning to use a computer or a new version of Windows. And when things are not working, neither are simple to fix.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Related Lists
                          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          > >
                          > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          > > (for new official data source development)
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Darth Borehd
                          I have to agree that Linux is not hard to use. If you think otherwise you have been misinformed. My dad used it on his home computer and he was computer
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 29, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I have to agree that Linux is not hard to use. If you think otherwise you
                            have been misinformed.

                            My dad used it on his home computer and he was computer illiterate.

                            My kids use it for. I also installed it for a local preschool and the kids
                            are fine with it there too.


                            On 29 June 2013 10:23, jciszek123 <jciszek123@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Not so short reply...sorry, guys.
                            >
                            > Maybe I missed a thread, but most Linux distro's come with a graphical
                            > interface nowadays, so why all the hubbub about a command-line faux pas?
                            > Seriously, you don't *usually* have to do something via CLI unless you
                            > *want* to. And rm'ing a file via CLI definitely falls under 'want to'. It's
                            > not as if someone's expecting you to jumpstart Solaris without any
                            > guidance. The *nix directory structure is different than Windows, sure, but
                            > so is MacOS' (and IIRC, MacOS running on a customized BSD-derivative. Or
                            > maybe it's Debian? Either way, SURPRISE! It's Linux'y, wrapped in a pretty
                            > Apple gui!).
                            >
                            > Home Use Case:
                            > Personally, I'm running Ubuntu at home since 2008/2009. (PCGen runs on it
                            > marvellously, btw, thumbs-up!) If you're expecting every Microsoft app to
                            > work in Linux, you're merely setting yourself up for disappointment. From
                            > my experience, most of the apps that "don't work in Linux" are
                            > vendor-specific-built-for-Windows, games or "we can't be bothered to
                            > support a minority market share". However, I've found that a vast majority
                            > of Windows applications tend to have an open-source equivalent, easily
                            > locatable with some google-fu or a repo search. There's still the Linux
                            > desktop equivalent of "My Documents", a trashcan, and taskbar/shortcut
                            > features for those who simply can't function without icons to click. The
                            > Linux equivalent might not do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as the Microsoft version
                            > does, but the 80/20 rule usually holds true, which tends to be good enough
                            > for most folks. Features in my Nissan aren't EXACTLY THE SAME as features
                            > in my Ford either, but, golly, I still manage to drive around...
                            >
                            > Quick-and-easy solution for games requiring direct hardware access: dual
                            > boot. Trust me, a reboot to a Windows partition now and again won't hurt
                            > you. If you can't be bothered with a reboot to play a game, that's more of
                            > a personal issue, IMHO, not a technical one. Alternative for
                            > not-requiring-direct-hardware-access: WINE/VMWare/VirtualBox, but even
                            > those are getting better at hardware emulation nowadays, some of the newer
                            > games probably work in a virtual environment (I haven't tried)
                            >
                            > As someone mentioned previously, Joe Schmoe causal user is typically only
                            > using a browser, email and maybe some sort of office application. You don't
                            > need Windows for those. Click on the little orange fox instead of the big
                            > blue 'E'... not a huge learning curve there. When my not-so-techie
                            > husband's hard drive died a couple of years back, I installed Ubuntu on his
                            > machine too. And given that he hasn't taken a sledgehammer to his tower, or
                            > demanded a Windows re-install, I'll chalk one up in the victory column.
                            >
                            > Business Use Case:
                            > Frankly, it depends on the business. I'd love to be able to run Linux at
                            > work. But I work for a very big company with very anal IT policies, so I
                            > just go with the flow, use whatever they issue to me and breathe a sigh of
                            > relief when my workday's over. In Andrew's case, yup, I can see how a
                            > signing tablet linked up via a cell network would present a challenge.
                            > (There's a linux RDP equiv, btw ;-) ) But for most small business owners,
                            > or anyone else whose dayjobs involve shuffling spreadsheets, answering
                            > email or other administrative mundane in a cubicle farm, they likely don't
                            > need Windows. Unless you're spending money that isn't yours, then hey,
                            > overpay for whatever you can! ;-)
                            >
                            > -JackieC
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I'll keep the reply brief - I have a bunch of co-workers that can barely
                            > operate a Windows Computer,
                            > > with a Program we need on it to conduct our business. Any 'change' needs
                            > to be minimal to not
                            > > interrupt mission critical operations.
                            > >
                            > > I did attempt Linux, and would have saved the company money, were it not
                            > for the fact the support
                            > > for the pen (Signing on a digitized screen) was faulty. I'm computer
                            > literate and can figure out
                            > > problems. My co-workers need to be trained to debug and operate as a
                            > basic user. Hence any
                            > > replacement must not introduce a drastic learning curve - in fact,
                            > login, open said program and
                            > > that's all they need.
                            > >
                            > > On 6/28/2013 5:35 AM, masaru20100 wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Linux requires a learning curve that is difficult to instill in a
                            > non-computer literate work force.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don���t agree. There is no reason it would be more difficult to
                            > learn to use a computer that uses GNU/Linux that it would be any other
                            > systems when you never used any (that is what I understand by non-computer
                            > literate).
                            > > > For people that are used to a particular OS, it can be a bit
                            > different, but it���s mostly because of resistance to change more than
                            > anything.
                            > > >
                            > > >> Also, many of the programs I enjoy aren't exactly supported on Linux.
                            > > >
                            > > > Maybe you ought to change for software that are? I know there is some
                            > software that don���t have equivalent thought.
                            > > >
                            > > >> A free-alternative that is a system people know and understand is
                            > what I'm looking for. I need
                            > > >> something that I can use, and know my wife and kids can easily use
                            > (Along with co-workers).
                            > > >
                            > > > If they just need to be able to use it, not install or admin it, I
                            > don���t see any reason it wouldn���t fit. Many users only need some web
                            > browser, it might not be their case.
                            > > >
                            > > >> I've played with Linux, it's support is lacking for my job - when I
                            > did the research and tried to
                            > > >> make it a reality, Linux failed to achieve the minimal levels that
                            > could be achieved out of the box
                            > > >> by Windows. I tried several distros. Linux is a great OS, but it's
                            > still very much in the realm of
                            > > >> geek/nerd level understanding. Hand two computers to my workforce,
                            > one with Linux and one with
                            > > >> Windows and tell me honestly which computer will work for them.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Etch-a-sketch - won't fly. I need a java capable computer with plenty
                            > of memory and hard drive space
                            > > >> to handle mission critical programs and have internet access.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> Linux - doesn't easily support Toughbook computers where we grab
                            > signatures directly in the field to
                            > > >> be applied to both Adobe Forms and a PCR program. Nor does it have
                            > the driver support for the
                            > > >> wireless cell card. (I spend a week trying to get the pens to work,
                            > it wasn't a very nice
                            > > >> experience, it's depressing actually)
                            > > >
                            > > > You can���t blame Linux for that, only the manufacturer or editors
                            > that don���t want to support it. Adobe is one of them, they almost stopped
                            > all forms of development for Linux. You expect hardware (and software) made
                            > for Windows to work on Linux. It usually works fine, but if it needs any
                            > driver, if the manufacturer doesn���t release it, it is hard to make up
                            > from scratch. It has been done in the past but it is not easy.
                            > > > If you want to be sure that some hardware is working on Linux, you
                            > need to check before buying because most company will not make it apparent
                            > on their packaging.
                            > > >
                            > > >> Right now, the company is on Windows 7, using toughbook computers
                            > with digitized screens. ReactOS
                            > > >> has promise, and I can wait a few years. I'm the most computer savvy
                            > employee at my job, I can learn
                            > > >> computer nuances, debug and fix them easily. I have the patience to
                            > troubleshoot a problem. The rest
                            > > >> know how to turn on the computer, log in and access the programs they
                            > need to do their job. They
                            > > >> lack the patience to figure things out, and more often than not come
                            > to me or a manager to solve
                            > > >> their issues. So, there ya go. I don't want to spend several months
                            > trying to teach old dogs new
                            > > >> tricks and then troubleshoot their problems. If there is a problem,
                            > we can remotely log into their
                            > > >> computer and fix an issue in real time. Something we can't easily do
                            > with Linux. (When I was
                            > > >> researching, you needed to know the ip address of your target, which
                            > is impossible when the IP is
                            > > >> randomly assigned by a cell phone carrier...)
                            > > >
                            > > > They���ll probably have to relearn when the next iteration of windows
                            > gets installed anyway. For a basic usage, it might take some time to
                            > understand a new OS, but just for simple usage that can not take that much
                            > time. If there is no one able to fix the computers anyway, that means they
                            > probably pay OS+support. It might cost less to form everyone to a new OS
                            > and only pay support. But I���m digressing heavily.
                            > > >
                            > > > Anyway, I just wanted to write that I think that using GNU/Linux is
                            > not hard to learn, compared to learning to use a computer or a new version
                            > of Windows. And when things are not working, neither are simple to fix.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Related Lists
                            > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                            > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > PCGen List File Help:
                            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            > > >
                            > > > PCGen Experimental:
                            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > > > (for new official data source development)
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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