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Re: Sorcerer Bloodline Spells

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  • mathew_cohen
    Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it s definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar
    Message 1 of 14 , May 22, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).

      I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.

      Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.

      There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides. Without it, all we are left with is a very efficient rules Nazi. It's still nice to have him around when needed though... :)

      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Ragabash Moon <RagabashMoon@...> wrote:
      >
      > Not sure there is, since every sorcerer gets their bloodline spells for free.
      > It's part of the class features of a sorcerer. The uniqueness in their spell
      > lists is the OTHER spells they take. It would require making the bloodline
      > spells totally optional, which by the rules as written (and therefore how pretty
      > much every character creation software is written) they are not.
      >
      >
      > 'Take my love, take my land, I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the
      > sky from me. Take me out to the Black, tell them I ain't comin' back, burn the
      > land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can
      > be, since I've found Serenity, you can't take the sky from me." -- Joss Whedon,
      > Ballad of Serenity
      >
      > RagabashMoon@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: mathew_cohen <mat.cohen@...>
      > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tue, May 21, 2013 11:13:55 PM
      > Subject: [pcgen] Sorcerer Bloodline Spells
      >
      >
      > Is their any way to override the default bonus spells provided by the sorcerer's
      > bloodline?
      >
      > I'm trying to build unique NPCs and would like a little more flexibility in
      > constructing their spell lists...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Eric C Smith
      Hi Matthew, ... There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won t do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite
      Message 2 of 14 , May 22, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Matthew,

        mathew_cohen wrote:

        > Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).


        There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.

        PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.


        > I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.


        The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.


        > Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.


        Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.

        A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.


        > There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.


        But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)

        I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .

        So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)

        If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.

        Maredudd
      • Ragabash Moon
        True, and you know, I think this is why I continue to use and prefer PCGen over a more polished and faster updated software like HeroLabs. HeroLabs may be
        Message 3 of 14 , May 22, 2013
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          True, and you know, I think this is why I continue to use and prefer PCGen over
          a more polished and faster updated software like HeroLabs. HeroLabs may be
          updated with the new books a lot faster (which of course is because it's actual
          paid software, whereas PCGen is fan-created, so spare time only), but the
          ability to code your own rules (if you know how, which I barely do) is something
          HeroLabs does not have.

          Though, I will also say, I very much like the new look of PCGen, so maybe I
          shouldn't say HeroLabs is more polished anymore :) Great job whoever designed
          the new GUI :)





          ________________________________
          From: Eric C Smith <maredudd@...>
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 7:47:52 PM
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Sorcerer Bloodline Spells


          Hi Matthew,

          mathew_cohen wrote:

          > Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a
          >weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar
          >limitations).

          There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do,
          but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.


          PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your
          own sets.

          > I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as
          >a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some
          >point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.),
          >or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their
          >campaign world.

          The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific
          mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a
          certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built
          with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you
          tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground
          up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.

          > Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it
          >likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications
          >development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions
          >for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.

          Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way.
          PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as
          flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the
          Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many
          of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.

          A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST
          tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data
          set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates
          to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide
          more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to
          accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the
          Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and
          Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . .
          :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is
          kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it
          is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system,
          in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided
          a work around.

          > There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the
          >proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to
          >provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs
          >could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.

          But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the
          "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to
          fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only
          limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there
          certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)

          I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was
          running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new
          equipment, spells, and races . . .


          So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from
          scratch? :-)

          If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to
          a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along
          the way.

          Maredudd


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andrew
          Hi, I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I m mad, I think the program is better for it. Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs.
          Message 4 of 14 , May 22, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi,

            I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
            Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
            to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
            we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.

            So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
            limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
            working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
            tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
            what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
            a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
            does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
            the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
            their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
            ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
            GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.

            PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
            tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
            If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
            it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
            alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
            switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
            power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.

            As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
            allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
            learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
            top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
            system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
            more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
            them out.

            My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.

            Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
            bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
            aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
            it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
            functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
            it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)

            Cheers,

            On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
            > Hi Matthew,
            >
            > mathew_cohen wrote:
            >
            >> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
            > There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
            >
            > PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
            >
            >
            >> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
            > The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
            >
            >
            >> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
            > Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
            >
            > A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
            >
            >
            >> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
            > But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
            >
            > I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
            >
            > So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
            >
            > If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
            >
            > Maredudd
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mathew_cohen
            Please -- I m not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of
            Message 5 of 14 , May 22, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.

              I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.

              Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.

              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
              > Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
              > to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
              > we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
              >
              > So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
              > limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
              > working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
              > tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
              > what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
              > a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
              > does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
              > the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
              > their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
              > ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
              > GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
              >
              > PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
              > tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
              > If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
              > it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
              > alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
              > switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
              > power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
              >
              > As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
              > allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
              > learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
              > top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
              > system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
              > more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
              > them out.
              >
              > My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
              >
              > Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
              > bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
              > aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
              > it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
              > functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
              > it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
              > > Hi Matthew,
              > >
              > > mathew_cohen wrote:
              > >
              > >> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
              > > There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
              > >
              > > PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
              > >
              > >
              > >> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
              > > The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
              > >
              > >
              > >> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
              > > Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
              > >
              > > A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
              > >
              > >
              > >> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
              > > But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
              > >
              > > I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
              > >
              > > So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
              > >
              > > If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
              > >
              > > Maredudd
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Related Lists
              > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              > >
              > >
              > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              > >
              > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              > > (for new official data source development)
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Andrew
              Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we ve standardized the syntax
              Message 6 of 14 , May 22, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P

                Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.

                And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.


                On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                > Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                >
                > I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                >
                > Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                >
                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                >> Hi,
                >>
                >> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                >> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                >> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                >> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                >>
                >> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                >> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                >> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                >> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                >> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                >> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                >> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                >> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                >> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                >> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                >> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                >>
                >> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                >> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                >> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                >> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                >> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                >> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                >> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                >>
                >> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                >> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                >> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                >> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                >> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                >> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                >> them out.
                >>
                >> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                >>
                >> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                >> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                >> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                >> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                >> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                >> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                >>
                >> Cheers,
                >>
                >> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                >>> Hi Matthew,
                >>>
                >>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                >>>
                >>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                >>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                >>>
                >>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                >>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                >>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                >>>
                >>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                >>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                >>>
                >>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                >>>
                >>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                >>>
                >>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                >>>
                >>> Maredudd
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Related Lists
                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>
                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>> (for new official data source development)
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >> --
                >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Related Lists
                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >
                >
                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >
                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > (for new official data source development)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mathew_cohen
                I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize
                Message 7 of 14 , May 22, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D

                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                  >
                  > Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                  > standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                  > did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                  > always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                  >
                  > And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                  > cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                  > > Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                  > >
                  > > I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                  > >
                  > > Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                  > >
                  > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                  > >> Hi,
                  > >>
                  > >> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                  > >> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                  > >> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                  > >> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                  > >>
                  > >> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                  > >> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                  > >> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                  > >> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                  > >> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                  > >> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                  > >> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                  > >> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                  > >> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                  > >> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                  > >> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                  > >>
                  > >> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                  > >> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                  > >> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                  > >> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                  > >> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                  > >> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                  > >> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                  > >>
                  > >> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                  > >> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                  > >> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                  > >> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                  > >> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                  > >> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                  > >> them out.
                  > >>
                  > >> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                  > >>
                  > >> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                  > >> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                  > >> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                  > >> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                  > >> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                  > >> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                  > >>
                  > >> Cheers,
                  > >>
                  > >> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                  > >>> Hi Matthew,
                  > >>>
                  > >>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                  > >>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                  > >>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                  > >>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                  > >>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                  > >>>
                  > >>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                  > >>>
                  > >>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                  > >>>
                  > >>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Maredudd
                  > >>>
                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Related Lists
                  > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  > >>>
                  > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > >>> (for new official data source development)
                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> --
                  > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Related Lists
                  > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  > >
                  > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > > (for new official data source development)
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Andrew
                  Well, I appreciate that. However, it s not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 22, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well, I appreciate that. However, it's not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort
                    around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a little possessive/defensive of my pcgen,
                    it's a natural reaction when you've put in time and effort to make it better.

                    I wasn't kidding about what I said earlier. We welcome any and all help around here to make this
                    program better. I also agree, if this wasa full time gig for me, I'd be able to pump out a ton of
                    stuff faster. As it is, it's when I find a free moment.

                    Hm, maybe we should do one of those kickstarter deals. They seem to be all the rage these days, and
                    can definitely help.

                    Now to finishformulating my improvement thoughts on Dragons, as Stefan's model is nice, just needs
                    to be further pared down to where it's one race, a pop up selection for theage, and something that
                    will allow you to go up and down and have the dragon adjust accordingly. ;)

                    On 5/22/2013 8:32 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                    > I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D
                    >
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >> Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                    >>
                    >> Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                    >> standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                    >> did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                    >> always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                    >>
                    >> And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                    >> cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                    >>> Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                    >>>
                    >>> I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                    >>>
                    >>> Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                    >>>> Hi,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                    >>>> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                    >>>> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                    >>>> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                    >>>> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                    >>>> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                    >>>> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                    >>>> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                    >>>> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                    >>>> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                    >>>> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                    >>>> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                    >>>> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                    >>>> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                    >>>> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                    >>>> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                    >>>> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                    >>>> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                    >>>> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                    >>>> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                    >>>> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                    >>>> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                    >>>> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                    >>>> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                    >>>> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                    >>>> them out.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                    >>>> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                    >>>> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                    >>>> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                    >>>> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                    >>>> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Cheers,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                    >>>>> Hi Matthew,
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                    >>>>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                    >>>>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                    >>>>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                    >>>>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Maredudd
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> --
                    >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Related Lists
                    >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> --
                    >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Related Lists
                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >
                    >
                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >
                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > (for new official data source development)
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mathew_cohen
                    Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea. What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 23, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea.

                      What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of voting process (via polling feature)? Or will this be determined by a cabal of benevolent specialists?

                      I could also see this as an avenue for kickstart donators to get homebrew content marked-up by more experienced users. :)

                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, I appreciate that. However, it's not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort
                      > around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a little possessive/defensive of my pcgen,
                      > it's a natural reaction when you've put in time and effort to make it better.
                      >
                      > I wasn't kidding about what I said earlier. We welcome any and all help around here to make this
                      > program better. I also agree, if this wasa full time gig for me, I'd be able to pump out a ton of
                      > stuff faster. As it is, it's when I find a free moment.
                      >
                      > Hm, maybe we should do one of those kickstarter deals. They seem to be all the rage these days, and
                      > can definitely help.
                      >
                      > Now to finishformulating my improvement thoughts on Dragons, as Stefan's model is nice, just needs
                      > to be further pared down to where it's one race, a pop up selection for theage, and something that
                      > will allow you to go up and down and have the dragon adjust accordingly. ;)
                      >
                      > On 5/22/2013 8:32 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                      > > I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D
                      > >
                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                      > >> Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                      > >>
                      > >> Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                      > >> standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                      > >> did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                      > >> always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                      > >>
                      > >> And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                      > >> cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                      > >>> Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                      > >>>> Hi,
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                      > >>>> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                      > >>>> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                      > >>>> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                      > >>>> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                      > >>>> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                      > >>>> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                      > >>>> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                      > >>>> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                      > >>>> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                      > >>>> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                      > >>>> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                      > >>>> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                      > >>>> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                      > >>>> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                      > >>>> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                      > >>>> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                      > >>>> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                      > >>>> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                      > >>>> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                      > >>>> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                      > >>>> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                      > >>>> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                      > >>>> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                      > >>>> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                      > >>>> them out.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                      > >>>> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                      > >>>> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                      > >>>> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                      > >>>> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                      > >>>> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Cheers,
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                      > >>>>> Hi Matthew,
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                      > >>>>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                      > >>>>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                      > >>>>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                      > >>>>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Maredudd
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Related Lists
                      > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> --
                      > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>>>
                      > >>> ------------------------------------
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Related Lists
                      > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      > >>>
                      > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > >>> (for new official data source development)
                      > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >> --
                      > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Related Lists
                      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      > >
                      > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > > (for new official data source development)
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • mathew_cohen
                      Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea. What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 23, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea.

                        What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of voting process (via polling feature)? Or will this be determined by a cabal of benevolent specialists?

                        I could also see this as an avenue for kickstart donators to get homebrew content marked-up by more experienced users. :)

                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well, I appreciate that. However, it's not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort
                        > around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a little possessive/defensive of my pcgen,
                        > it's a natural reaction when you've put in time and effort to make it better.
                        >
                        > I wasn't kidding about what I said earlier. We welcome any and all help around here to make this
                        > program better. I also agree, if this wasa full time gig for me, I'd be able to pump out a ton of
                        > stuff faster. As it is, it's when I find a free moment.
                        >
                        > Hm, maybe we should do one of those kickstarter deals. They seem to be all the rage these days, and
                        > can definitely help.
                        >
                        > Now to finishformulating my improvement thoughts on Dragons, as Stefan's model is nice, just needs
                        > to be further pared down to where it's one race, a pop up selection for theage, and something that
                        > will allow you to go up and down and have the dragon adjust accordingly. ;)
                        >
                        > On 5/22/2013 8:32 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                        > > I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D
                        > >
                        > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                        > >> Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                        > >>
                        > >> Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                        > >> standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                        > >> did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                        > >> always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                        > >>
                        > >> And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                        > >> cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                        > >>> Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                        > >>>> Hi,
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                        > >>>> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                        > >>>> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                        > >>>> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                        > >>>> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                        > >>>> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                        > >>>> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                        > >>>> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                        > >>>> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                        > >>>> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                        > >>>> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                        > >>>> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                        > >>>> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                        > >>>> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                        > >>>> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                        > >>>> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                        > >>>> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                        > >>>> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                        > >>>> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                        > >>>> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                        > >>>> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                        > >>>> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                        > >>>> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                        > >>>> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                        > >>>> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                        > >>>> them out.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                        > >>>> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                        > >>>> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                        > >>>> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                        > >>>> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                        > >>>> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Cheers,
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                        > >>>>> Hi Matthew,
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                        > >>>>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                        > >>>>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                        > >>>>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                        > >>>>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> Maredudd
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> Related Lists
                        > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>> --
                        > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>>>
                        > >>> ------------------------------------
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Related Lists
                        > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        > >>>
                        > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > >>> (for new official data source development)
                        > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >> --
                        > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Related Lists
                        > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        > >
                        > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > > (for new official data source development)
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Andrew
                        Hi, I honestly don t know. I can t speak for the coders, only myself. I think someone once thought of offering me out to create a personal data set of any book
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 23, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi,

                          I honestly don't know. I can't speak for the coders, only myself. I think someone once thought of
                          offering me out to create a personal data set of any book of their choice.

                          As my time is valuable, that is actually a tremendous gift - one bona-fide Data Chimp making a set.
                          (f you consider I'm making the bestiary 3, in conjunctionwith the Advanced Race Guide -
                          critiquingand correcting my volunteers as needed, and tossing together a few other sets languishing,
                          that's a lot of time volunteering. It's even crazier if you realize I work at least 60 hours a week.

                          Usually gifts only benefit the donors, for the code team, I know that wouldn't be the case. It's be
                          a feature chosen.

                          If the BoD agreed to such a thing, I'm sure it would be cool.

                          If you have ideas, toss them out there. I'll contribute out of my love for the program, regardless
                          of a kickstarter or not.


                          On 5/23/2013 9:37 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                          > Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea.
                          >
                          > What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of voting process (via polling feature)? Or will this be determined by a cabal of benevolent specialists?
                          >
                          > I could also see this as an avenue for kickstart donators to get homebrew content marked-up by more experienced users. :)
                          >
                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >> Well, I appreciate that. However, it's not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort
                          >> around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a little possessive/defensive of my pcgen,
                          >> it's a natural reaction when you've put in time and effort to make it better.
                          >>
                          >> I wasn't kidding about what I said earlier. We welcome any and all help around here to make this
                          >> program better. I also agree, if this wasa full time gig for me, I'd be able to pump out a ton of
                          >> stuff faster. As it is, it's when I find a free moment.
                          >>
                          >> Hm, maybe we should do one of those kickstarter deals. They seem to be all the rage these days, and
                          >> can definitely help.
                          >>
                          >> Now to finishformulating my improvement thoughts on Dragons, as Stefan's model is nice, just needs
                          >> to be further pared down to where it's one race, a pop up selection for theage, and something that
                          >> will allow you to go up and down and have the dragon adjust accordingly. ;)
                          >>
                          >> On 5/22/2013 8:32 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                          >>> I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D
                          >>>
                          >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                          >>>> Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                          >>>> standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                          >>>> did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                          >>>> always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                          >>>> cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                          >>>>> Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                          >>>>>> Hi,
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                          >>>>>> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                          >>>>>> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                          >>>>>> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                          >>>>>> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                          >>>>>> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                          >>>>>> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                          >>>>>> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                          >>>>>> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                          >>>>>> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                          >>>>>> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                          >>>>>> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                          >>>>>> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                          >>>>>> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                          >>>>>> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                          >>>>>> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                          >>>>>> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                          >>>>>> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                          >>>>>> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                          >>>>>> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                          >>>>>> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                          >>>>>> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                          >>>>>> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                          >>>>>> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                          >>>>>> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                          >>>>>> them out.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                          >>>>>> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                          >>>>>> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                          >>>>>> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                          >>>>>> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                          >>>>>> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Cheers,
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                          >>>>>>> Hi Matthew,
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                          >>>>>>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                          >>>>>>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                          >>>>>>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                          >>>>>>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Maredudd
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>> --
                          >>>>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          >>>>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          >>>>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          >>>>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          >>>>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>> --
                          >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>
                          >>> Related Lists
                          >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>
                          >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >> --
                          >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Related Lists
                          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >
                          >
                          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >
                          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          > (for new official data source development)
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • mathew_cohen
                          Cheers Andrew -- I ll think about this (potential features and kickstarter benefits) and post in a new message thread.
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 24, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Cheers Andrew -- I'll think about this (potential features and kickstarter benefits) and post in a new message thread.

                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > I honestly don't know. I can't speak for the coders, only myself. I think someone once thought of
                            > offering me out to create a personal data set of any book of their choice.
                            >
                            > As my time is valuable, that is actually a tremendous gift - one bona-fide Data Chimp making a set.
                            > (f you consider I'm making the bestiary 3, in conjunctionwith the Advanced Race Guide -
                            > critiquingand correcting my volunteers as needed, and tossing together a few other sets languishing,
                            > that's a lot of time volunteering. It's even crazier if you realize I work at least 60 hours a week.
                            >
                            > Usually gifts only benefit the donors, for the code team, I know that wouldn't be the case. It's be
                            > a feature chosen.
                            >
                            > If the BoD agreed to such a thing, I'm sure it would be cool.
                            >
                            > If you have ideas, toss them out there. I'll contribute out of my love for the program, regardless
                            > of a kickstarter or not.
                            >
                            >
                            > On 5/23/2013 9:37 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                            > > Personally, I think the Kickstarter is a great idea.
                            > >
                            > > What would be the added data or application features? An initial request of ideas and then some kind of voting process (via polling feature)? Or will this be determined by a cabal of benevolent specialists?
                            > >
                            > > I could also see this as an avenue for kickstart donators to get homebrew content marked-up by more experienced users. :)
                            > >
                            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > >> Well, I appreciate that. However, it's not *my* application. I just volunteer my time and effort
                            > >> around here like everyone else. Though at times I feel a little possessive/defensive of my pcgen,
                            > >> it's a natural reaction when you've put in time and effort to make it better.
                            > >>
                            > >> I wasn't kidding about what I said earlier. We welcome any and all help around here to make this
                            > >> program better. I also agree, if this wasa full time gig for me, I'd be able to pump out a ton of
                            > >> stuff faster. As it is, it's when I find a free moment.
                            > >>
                            > >> Hm, maybe we should do one of those kickstarter deals. They seem to be all the rage these days, and
                            > >> can definitely help.
                            > >>
                            > >> Now to finishformulating my improvement thoughts on Dragons, as Stefan's model is nice, just needs
                            > >> to be further pared down to where it's one race, a pop up selection for theage, and something that
                            > >> will allow you to go up and down and have the dragon adjust accordingly. ;)
                            > >>
                            > >> On 5/22/2013 8:32 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                            > >>> I really do like your application Andrew. It still allows me to stat up inumerous NPCs in a flash. I can then adjust by hand little details to individualize them. Its something I'm truly thankful for -- along with the price tag... :D
                            > >>>
                            > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > >>>> Maybe a ruffled feather or two... :P
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Learning LST is like anything else. The good news, Tom Parker has made it a bit easer as we've
                            > >>>> standardized the syntax across the board to make it easier to use. I learned by seeing how others
                            > >>>> did it, and then played with it myself. You won't be a pro unless you doit often enough. And I
                            > >>>> always tell new people to only code what you need, and not try to tackle an entire book.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> And why is my email client pushing my words together to have no spaces? Arg, makes it look like I
                            > >>>> cannot write a proper sentence... might be time to file a big report withthe thunderbird folks.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> On 5/22/2013 7:23 PM, mathew_cohen wrote:
                            > >>>>> Please -- I'm not bagging the application -- I was simply flirting with the idea of a more flexible UI! I also commented that I was (at least vaguely) aware of the significance of the proposal.
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> I have toyed with the idea of learning the LST markup -- I'm just weighing up time involved vs. possible frequency of use. It's a process I imagine many of your users also go through.
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Seriously guys, I do appreciate the effort involved and apologize if I offended anyone -- that wasn't my intention.
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > >>>>>> Hi,
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> I like to think it was a fit of genius, but if I'm mad, I think the program is better for it.
                            > >>>>>> Though, if you want to compare difficulty Archetype vs. Racial Traits. Archetypes were much easier
                            > >>>>>> to implement than Racial Traits. I think we went through three revisions to get the elegant method
                            > >>>>>> we have today. That was half genius and half madness right there.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> So, as a GM, a player and all around GEEK, I enjoy PCGen as much as the next guy. Sure, ithas it's
                            > >>>>>> limitations. But let's be frank for a moment, my job when I code up any Book is to code up an exact
                            > >>>>>> working rules set based upon that book as presented by the publisher, period. It would be a
                            > >>>>>> tremendous effort for me to have to think of adding in flexibility to an entire Book! Hear me out,
                            > >>>>>> what if your GM decided he wanted Acrobatics to be a strength skill? Or perhaps it is Wisdombase, or
                            > >>>>>> a combination of Strength and Dexterity, or the better of the two? How flexible is flexible? Where
                            > >>>>>> does the line stop? So, when I or my numerous volunteers work on a book, it's much easier to read
                            > >>>>>> the book and code to the standard of the book. We have two sample HOMEBREW sets for GM's to make
                            > >>>>>> their own stuff for that very reason. The responsibility for designing what a GM might want is
                            > >>>>>> ludicrous, instead, we code books to be books, and we offer a suite of tags, and support to allow
                            > >>>>>> GMs to homebrew to their heart's desire.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> PCGen *does* allow you to be flexible. Don't get that wrong. Look at our .COPY, .MOD and .FORGET
                            > >>>>>> tags. If your GM doesn't like the BOOK, then that's his or her purview, and not really my concern.
                            > >>>>>> If they want to have an Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline that grants Wish as a 1st level spell, then so be
                            > >>>>>> it, the PCGen team will be more than happy to step the gm through the process of making an
                            > >>>>>> alternative Bloodline to make that happen. But don't expect me to build books that have kill
                            > >>>>>> switches for every little thing we code up, else the books would double in size and processing
                            > >>>>>> power. Not to mention you'd be swamped with a Homebrew Rules section the length of a Novel.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> As Eric has mentioned, it's not hard to make your own data set which cherry picks what you want, and
                            > >>>>>> allows for homebrewers to make the program do what they want. It's an ultimate tool. It has a
                            > >>>>>> learning curve, since you'll need to learnour LST code stuff, but I'd like to think our support is
                            > >>>>>> top notch with Documentation, (Beginning to make how-to videos courtesy of Eric Smith), JIRA ticket
                            > >>>>>> system for bugs or new features, multiple yahoo groups to pose questions, and even a WIKI for the
                            > >>>>>> more frequent issues. Shucks, I'll even talk to people on IM for a few hours when necessary to help
                            > >>>>>> them out.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> My answer to the original question - not really, but you can code your own version if you'd like.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Also, PCGen is not a rules nazi. It does exactly what it's programmed to do. We even built in
                            > >>>>>> bypasses so you can get illegal feats, or gain class levels in classes you don't qualify for. It's
                            > >>>>>> aprogramand does as it's supposed to do. Don't blame the program as being limited when it's doing
                            > >>>>>> it's intended purpose. However, if you're offering your services as a JAVA coder to improve it's
                            > >>>>>> functionality, please submit your proposals to improve the program. If you're offering ideas to make
                            > >>>>>> it work better, than speak up and talk to me. We're always improving the program. ;)
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Cheers,
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> On 5/22/2013 5:47 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                            > >>>>>>> Hi Matthew,
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> mathew_cohen wrote:
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>> Your right of course -- I thought this was a long shot. But it's definitely a weakness of the application (this one and any other with the same or similar limitations).
                            > >>>>>>> There most certainly is an awful lot more that PCGen won't do than it will do, but when you consider what it does do, I think its quite impressive.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen does, though, provide a lot of flexibility if you are willing to code your own sets.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>> I'll argue that the ruleset (rules as written) is there ultimately to serve as a collection of ideas -- and tested ways of implementing these. Most GMs at some point wish to develop their own unique game objects (magic items, spells, etc.), or at least reorganise existing material to better reflect details of their campaign world.
                            > >>>>>>> The data sets that PCGen distributes are coded to implement the specific mechanics presented in the various publisher source books. That does provide a certain amount of limitation. The LST tags that PCGen's data sets are built with, on the other hand, provide a tremendous amount of flexibility. Have you tried to code your own Versatile Sorcerer from scratch? Built from the ground up, it may be possible to do exactly what you are interested in.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately for this level of functionality to be built into the software it likely needs to be addressed at the earliest stage of the applications development. Developing tools to parse existing data and then create exceptions for the coded rules would surely be a LOT of work.
                            > >>>>>>> Well, yeah, which may explain why few character generators approach it that way. PCGen's approach, as briefly mentioned above, is to build the LST tags to be as flexible as possible. In deed, if you go through the historical files on the Experimental list you will see extensive discussion of tag proposals, and many of them try to go well beyond what the latest source mechanics require.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> A good example of the flexibility of PCGen's underlying code base, and the LST tags that it supports, is demonstrated by the differences in how the 3.5e data set was coded as compared to the Pathfinder data set, especially as it relates to alternate abilities. 3.5e used subclasses and substitution levels to provide more flexibility in its classes and the PCGen team provided the tags to accomplish this. With the introduction of Paizo's APG, and the mechanic of the Archetypes, a big monkey wrench was thrown into the works! Then Andrew and Stefan, if I recall correctly, in a fit of genius, or maybe even madness . . . :-), concocted the current coding scheme. Now, the current archetype system is kinda hard to understand, but once you understand it you realize how elegant it is. One day we may add LST tag behavior that will simplify the archetype system, in the mean time, PCGen's current LST tags, and their flexibility, has provided a work around.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>> There really should be a GM mode which allows overriding most of the proscriptive rules of character generation. This would allow the application to provide the most benefit (and better reflect actual playing of the game). GMs could then take full advantage of the automation the application provides.
                            > >>>>>>> But there is a GM mode in place even as we speak. A method to override the "proscriptive rules", whereby the GM can create his/her own data sets to fine-tune, or even through out the baby and start anew. Literally, you are only limited by your imagination . . . ok, that may be an exaggeration, for there certainly are a LOT of things PCGen's LST tags won't do . . . :-)
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> I don't have time these days to do amy GMing but just three years ago when I was running a regular campaign I have customized my campaign files enough to add new equipment, spells, and races . . .
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> So, have you thought about trying to create your own Flexible Sorcerer from scratch? :-)
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> If you're interested you will find a few links at the bottom of this message to a couple of places you can go to get help getting started as well as help along the way.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Maredudd
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Related Lists
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            > >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> --
                            > >>>>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            > >>>>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            > >>>>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            > >>>>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            > >>>>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Related Lists
                            > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>> --
                            > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>
                            > >>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Related Lists
                            > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            > >>>
                            > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > >>> (for new official data source development)
                            > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >> --
                            > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Related Lists
                            > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            > >
                            > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > > (for new official data source development)
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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