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Re: [pcgen] Animal Companion in D&D 3.5

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  • David R. Bender
    As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will officially rule on anything. As much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on / turn off the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 19, 2013
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      As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
      much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
      turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
      way to go.

      -- david
      Papa.DRB

      My better half and me (jpg)
      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>

      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
      On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
      > Hi,
      >
      > We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
      > dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
      > if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
      > larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
      >
      > I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
      >
      >
      > Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
      >
      > :P
      >
      > Cheers,
      > On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
      >> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
      >> Advancement <cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
      >>
      >> That is why it becomes medium size.
      >>
      >> Then under size increases:
      >>
      >> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
      >>
      >>
      >> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> -- david
      >> Papa.DRB
      >>
      >> My better half and me (jpg)
      >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
      >>
      >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
      >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
      >>
      >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
      >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
      >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
      >> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
      >>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
      >>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> mcv.
      >>>
      >>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Hi,
      >>>>
      >>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
      >>>> it got bigger.
      >>>>
      >>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
      >>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> mcv.
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> Hi Martijn,
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> mcv.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> mcv.
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Related Lists
      >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
      >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
      >>
      >>
      >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      >>
      >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      >> (for new official data source development)
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
    • James Dempsey
      Hi, Fortunately they already have. From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 19, 2013
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        Hi,

        Fortunately they already have.

        From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

        Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal
        companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal
        get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
        companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
        and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
        wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
        the MM, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
        Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?

        A: An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra
        Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for
        creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
        unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
        perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.

        Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
        following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
        in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
        simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
        tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.

        Cheers,
        James.

        On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
        > As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
        > much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
        > turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
        > way to go.
        >
        > -- david
        > Papa.DRB
        >
        > My better half and me (jpg)
        > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
        >
        > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
        >
        > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
        > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
        > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
        > On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
        >> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
        >> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
        >> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
        >>
        >> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
        >>
        >>
        >> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
        >>
        >> :P
        >>
        >> Cheers,
        >> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
        >>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
        >>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
        >>>
        >>> That is why it becomes medium size.
        >>>
        >>> Then under size increases:
        >>>
        >>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> -- david
        >>> Papa.DRB
        >>>
        >>> My better half and me (jpg)
        >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
        >>>
        >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
        >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
        >>>
        >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
        >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
        >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
        >>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
        >>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
        >>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> mcv.
        >>>>
        >>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>> Hi,
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
        >>>>> it got bigger.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
        >>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> mcv.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> mcv.
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> mcv.
      • Martijn Vos
        I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small. Not everything is right, however; somehow, my
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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          I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.

          Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
          An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.

          In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.

          There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.

          As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.


          Regards,
          Martijn.

          On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:

          > Hi,
          >
          > Fortunately they already have.
          >
          > From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
          >
          > Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal
          > companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal
          > get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
          > companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
          > and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
          > wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
          > the MM, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
          > Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
          >
          > A: An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra
          > Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for
          > creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
          > unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
          > perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
          >
          > Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
          > following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
          > in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
          > simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
          > tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > James.
          >
          > On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
          >> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
          >> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
          >> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
          >> way to go.
          >>
          >> -- david
          >> Papa.DRB
          >>
          >> My better half and me (jpg)
          >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
          >>
          >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
          >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
          >>
          >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
          >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
          >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
          >> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
          >>> Hi,
          >>>
          >>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
          >>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
          >>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
          >>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
          >>>
          >>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
          >>>
          >>> :P
          >>>
          >>> Cheers,
          >>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
          >>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
          >>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
          >>>>
          >>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
          >>>>
          >>>> Then under size increases:
          >>>>
          >>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> -- david
          >>>> Papa.DRB
          >>>>
          >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
          >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
          >>>>
          >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
          >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
          >>>>
          >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
          >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
          >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
          >>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
          >>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
          >>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>> mcv.
          >>>>>
          >>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
          >>>>>
          >>>>>> Hi,
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
          >>>>>> it got bigger.
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
          >>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>> mcv.
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
          >>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
          >>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
          >>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
          >>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
          >>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>> mcv.
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
          >>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
          >>>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
          >>>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
          >>>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
          >>>>>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>>>> mcv.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >
          >
          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Andrew
          Hi Martjin, BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches the +2 you cited. You don t get Odd Racial
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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            Hi Martjin,

            BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches
            the +2 you cited.

            You don't get Odd Racial Adjustments in 3.5, they are always even +2, +4, +6. An Eagle starts with a
            DEX of 11+4= 15
            Animal Companions shouldn't be gaining Level Based Stat Boosts from Bonus HD granted by a Master.

            Skills - Well, looks like Spot is 4 ranks +2 Wisdom +8 Racial Boost =14, Hide is untrained +3 (Dex
            17) + 1 (Small) = 4; Listen is +2 (Wisdom)
            and Jump, is due to the Ground Move of 10 [Every -10 Move from 30 is -6 Penalty IIRC] (You ever see
            an Eagle Pole Vault?)

            And the RSRD lists the Eagle as:

            *Skills:***



            Listen +2, Spot +14


            So, that is what the Eagle is coded to be. The website is nice, but it isn't the Publisher RSRD
            Files that we coded the Animal to meet. If you want to make a copy that matches another source, feel
            free, that is the freedom you may exercise with those sets on your computer. But the master file
            says Eagle gets Spot +14, and consequently has a Listen of +2. Means all 4 Ranks available had to go
            into Spot.

            The only thing off from this whole review is your Eagle's Dex, which as you've stated should be 17
            not 16. Are you using 6.0 or 6.1.1?

            On 2/15/2013 4:45 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
            > I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.
            >
            > Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
            > An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.
            >
            > In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.
            >
            > There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.
            >
            > As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            > Martijn.
            >
            > On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:
            >
            >> Hi,
            >>
            >> Fortunately they already have.
            >>
            >> From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
            >>
            >> Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid�s (or ranger�s) animal
            >> companion as the master�s level goes up, does the animal
            >> get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
            >> companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
            >> and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
            >> wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
            >> the MM, an �advanced� wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
            >> Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
            >>
            >> A: An animal companion doesn�t get bigger when it adds extra
            >> Hit Dice for the master�s levels. The advancement entries for
            >> creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
            >> unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
            >> perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
            >>
            >> Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
            >> following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
            >> in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
            >> simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
            >> tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >> James.
            >>
            >> On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
            >>> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
            >>> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
            >>> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
            >>> way to go.
            >>>
            >>> -- david
            >>> Papa.DRB
            >>>
            >>> My better half and me (jpg)
            >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
            >>>
            >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
            >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
            >>>
            >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
            >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
            >>> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
            >>>> Hi,
            >>>>
            >>>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
            >>>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
            >>>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
            >>>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
            >>>>
            >>>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
            >>>>
            >>>> :P
            >>>>
            >>>> Cheers,
            >>>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
            >>>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
            >>>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
            >>>>>
            >>>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Then under size increases:
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
            >>>>>
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
            >>>>>
            >>>>>
            >>>>>
            >>>>> -- david
            >>>>> Papa.DRB
            >>>>>
            >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
            >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
            >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
            >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
            >>>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
            >>>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
            >>>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> mcv.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>>> Hi,
            >>>>>>>
            >>>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
            >>>>>>> it got bigger.
            >>>>>>>
            >>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
            >>>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>> mcv.
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
            >>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
            >>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
            >>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
            >>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
            >>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
            >>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>> mcv.
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
            >>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
            >>>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
            >>>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
            >>>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
            >>>>>>>>>>>
            >>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Related Lists
            >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >>
            >>
            >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>
            >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >> (for new official data source development)
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Martijn Vos
            Why is Dex 11+4 and not 10+4? I mean, that would be the easy way for me to fix it, but shouldn t all stats start at a base of 10? But if we get the eagle to
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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            • 0 Attachment
              Why is Dex 11+4 and not 10+4? I mean, that would be the easy way for me to fix it, but shouldn't all stats start at a base of 10?

              But if we get the eagle to start at 15, he'd end up with a Dex of 17 at druid level 8. So my 18 must have been wrong. No idea where I got that from.

              I'm currently using 6.00.0 RC1.

              I understand the jump penalty.

              For Hide, d20srd doesn't mention the skill at all. PCGen has a +4 misc mod, leading my eagle to have a Hide of +7. 1 of those 4 is apparently a size mod, but where do the other 3 come from?

              I wasn't aware of the RSRD, and considered d20srd canonical. Google did turn up http://www.reality.net/dnd/rsrd/monstersAnimal.html which indeed shows the +2 and +14.
              On dandwiki.com, it seems an errata has given eagles Alertness, resulting in the additional +2 for Spot and Listen. Is that errata not an official one?

              Is there an easy way to give my eagle Alertness without using up the extra feats he should get? (Not that I'm going to use them, with the monster feats missing.)

              Anyway, I think I now understand how it works.

              The main weird things remaining are the missing point of Dex, and the lack of monster feats.

              I suppose using different sources could fix the missing monster feats, though it's weird that the default 3.5 sources do support animal companions, but not their feats.
              Any idea if there are sources that use the fully errata'd version on d20srd?


              Regards,
              Martijn.


              On Feb 15, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Andrew wrote:

              > Hi Martjin,
              >
              > BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches
              > the +2 you cited.
              >
              > You don't get Odd Racial Adjustments in 3.5, they are always even +2, +4, +6. An Eagle starts with a
              > DEX of 11+4= 15
              > Animal Companions shouldn't be gaining Level Based Stat Boosts from Bonus HD granted by a Master.
              >
              > Skills - Well, looks like Spot is 4 ranks +2 Wisdom +8 Racial Boost =14, Hide is untrained +3 (Dex
              > 17) + 1 (Small) = 4; Listen is +2 (Wisdom)
              > and Jump, is due to the Ground Move of 10 [Every -10 Move from 30 is -6 Penalty IIRC] (You ever see
              > an Eagle Pole Vault?)
              >
              > And the RSRD lists the Eagle as:
              >
              > *Skills:***
              >
              >
              >
              > Listen +2, Spot +14
              >
              >
              > So, that is what the Eagle is coded to be. The website is nice, but it isn't the Publisher RSRD
              > Files that we coded the Animal to meet. If you want to make a copy that matches another source, feel
              > free, that is the freedom you may exercise with those sets on your computer. But the master file
              > says Eagle gets Spot +14, and consequently has a Listen of +2. Means all 4 Ranks available had to go
              > into Spot.
              >
              > The only thing off from this whole review is your Eagle's Dex, which as you've stated should be 17
              > not 16. Are you using 6.0 or 6.1.1?
              >
              > On 2/15/2013 4:45 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
              >> I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.
              >>
              >> Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
              >> An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.
              >>
              >> In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.
              >>
              >> There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.
              >>
              >> As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.
              >>
              >>
              >> Regards,
              >> Martijn.
              >>
              >> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:
              >>
              >>> Hi,
              >>>
              >>> Fortunately they already have.
              >>>
              >>> From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
              >>>
              >>> Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid‚s (or ranger‚s) animal
              >>> companion as the master‚s level goes up, does the animal
              >>> get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
              >>> companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
              >>> and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
              >>> wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
              >>> the MM, an „advanced‰ wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
              >>> Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
              >>>
              >>> A: An animal companion doesn‚t get bigger when it adds extra
              >>> Hit Dice for the master‚s levels. The advancement entries for
              >>> creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
              >>> unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
              >>> perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
              >>>
              >>> Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
              >>> following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
              >>> in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
              >>> simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
              >>> tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
              >>>
              >>> Cheers,
              >>> James.
              >>>
              >>> On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
              >>>> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
              >>>> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
              >>>> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
              >>>> way to go.
              >>>>
              >>>> -- david
              >>>> Papa.DRB
              >>>>
              >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
              >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
              >>>>
              >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
              >>>>
              >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
              >>>> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
              >>>>> Hi,
              >>>>>
              >>>>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
              >>>>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
              >>>>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
              >>>>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
              >>>>>
              >>>>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
              >>>>>
              >>>>> :P
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Cheers,
              >>>>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
              >>>>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
              >>>>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> Then under size increases:
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> -- david
              >>>>>> Papa.DRB
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
              >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
              >>>>>>
              >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
              >>>>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
              >>>>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
              >>>>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
              >>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>
              >>>>>>> mcv.
              >>>>>>>
              >>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
              >>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>> Hi,
              >>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
              >>>>>>>> it got bigger.
              >>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
              >>>>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>> mcv.
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
              >>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
              >>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
              >>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
              >>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
              >>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
              >>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
              >>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>
              >>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Related Lists
              >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>>
              >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >>> (for new official data source development)
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Related Lists
              >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>
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              >> (for new official data source development)
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              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              > --
              > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
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              > Related Lists
              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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              > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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              >
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            • Andrew
              The Eagle should be getting a Kit Applied which has this line: STAT:DEX=11|STR=10|CON=10|INT=10|WIS=10|CHA=10 That is supposed to set the default starting
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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                The Eagle should be getting a Kit Applied which has this line:
                STAT:DEX=11|STR=10|CON=10|INT=10|WIS=10|CHA=10

                That is supposed to set the default starting stats for you.

                And no, Races are either 10 or 11 based upon whether they have an Even or Odd score. The bonus is
                derived by removing the 10 or 11 if the score is Even or Odd. (I could cite the rule, but I just
                finished a 24 hour shift and am beat, so I'll trust you can take my word on it).

                There is no RC1 released yet. Just 6.0 or 6.1.01.

                Hide is Dex Based - 17 Dex = 3; I'm probably getting my size mod mixed up (I'll blame lack of sleep)
                for the other +4 which is where your final value of +7 comes from.

                Sadly, the Errata wasn't released in the RSRD (Revised System Resource Document) so it's not part of
                our release.

                And yes, it's easy to add things. The easiest method is to just add a point in your feat box and
                give the Animal the feat. However, as I assume it's a bonus feat, the technically correct manner is
                VFEAT:Alertness on the race line of the race in question.

                What Monster Feats are you missing?
                I have the entire list as:
                Ability Focus
                Awesome Blow
                Craft Construct
                Empower Spell-Like Ability
                Flyby Attack
                Hover
                Improved Natural Armor
                Improved Natural Attack
                Multiattack
                Multiweapon Fighting
                Quicken Spell-Like Ability
                Snatch
                Wingover

                Beyond that, your animal may take any regular feat they qualify for.

                Anyways, I'm heading to bed, hopefully someone else can help track down your missing Dex point.


                On 2/15/2013 7:53 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                > Why is Dex 11+4 and not 10+4? I mean, that would be the easy way for me to fix it, but shouldn't all stats start at a base of 10?
                >
                > But if we get the eagle to start at 15, he'd end up with a Dex of 17 at druid level 8. So my 18 must have been wrong. No idea where I got that from.
                >
                > I'm currently using 6.00.0 RC1.
                >
                > I understand the jump penalty.
                >
                > For Hide, d20srd doesn't mention the skill at all. PCGen has a +4 misc mod, leading my eagle to have a Hide of +7. 1 of those 4 is apparently a size mod, but where do the other 3 come from?
                >
                > I wasn't aware of the RSRD, and considered d20srd canonical. Google did turn up http://www.reality.net/dnd/rsrd/monstersAnimal.html which indeed shows the +2 and +14.
                > On dandwiki.com, it seems an errata has given eagles Alertness, resulting in the additional +2 for Spot and Listen. Is that errata not an official one?
                >
                > Is there an easy way to give my eagle Alertness without using up the extra feats he should get? (Not that I'm going to use them, with the monster feats missing.)
                >
                > Anyway, I think I now understand how it works.
                >
                > The main weird things remaining are the missing point of Dex, and the lack of monster feats.
                >
                > I suppose using different sources could fix the missing monster feats, though it's weird that the default 3.5 sources do support animal companions, but not their feats.
                > Any idea if there are sources that use the fully errata'd version on d20srd?
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                > Martijn.
                >
                >
                > On Feb 15, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >
                >> Hi Martjin,
                >>
                >> BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches
                >> the +2 you cited.
                >>
                >> You don't get Odd Racial Adjustments in 3.5, they are always even +2, +4, +6. An Eagle starts with a
                >> DEX of 11+4= 15
                >> Animal Companions shouldn't be gaining Level Based Stat Boosts from Bonus HD granted by a Master.
                >>
                >> Skills - Well, looks like Spot is 4 ranks +2 Wisdom +8 Racial Boost =14, Hide is untrained +3 (Dex
                >> 17) + 1 (Small) = 4; Listen is +2 (Wisdom)
                >> and Jump, is due to the Ground Move of 10 [Every -10 Move from 30 is -6 Penalty IIRC] (You ever see
                >> an Eagle Pole Vault?)
                >>
                >> And the RSRD lists the Eagle as:
                >>
                >> *Skills:***
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Listen +2, Spot +14
                >>
                >>
                >> So, that is what the Eagle is coded to be. The website is nice, but it isn't the Publisher RSRD
                >> Files that we coded the Animal to meet. If you want to make a copy that matches another source, feel
                >> free, that is the freedom you may exercise with those sets on your computer. But the master file
                >> says Eagle gets Spot +14, and consequently has a Listen of +2. Means all 4 Ranks available had to go
                >> into Spot.
                >>
                >> The only thing off from this whole review is your Eagle's Dex, which as you've stated should be 17
                >> not 16. Are you using 6.0 or 6.1.1?
                >>
                >> On 2/15/2013 4:45 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                >>> I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.
                >>>
                >>> Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
                >>> An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.
                >>>
                >>> In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.
                >>>
                >>> There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.
                >>>
                >>> As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Regards,
                >>> Martijn.
                >>>
                >>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:
                >>>
                >>>> Hi,
                >>>>
                >>>> Fortunately they already have.
                >>>>
                >>>> From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
                >>>>
                >>>> Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid�s (or ranger�s) animal
                >>>> companion as the master�s level goes up, does the animal
                >>>> get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
                >>>> companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
                >>>> and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
                >>>> wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
                >>>> the MM, an �advanced� wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
                >>>> Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
                >>>>
                >>>> A: An animal companion doesn�t get bigger when it adds extra
                >>>> Hit Dice for the master�s levels. The advancement entries for
                >>>> creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
                >>>> unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
                >>>> perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
                >>>>
                >>>> Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
                >>>> following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
                >>>> in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
                >>>> simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
                >>>> tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
                >>>>
                >>>> Cheers,
                >>>> James.
                >>>>
                >>>> On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
                >>>>> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
                >>>>> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
                >>>>> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
                >>>>> way to go.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> -- david
                >>>>> Papa.DRB
                >>>>>
                >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >>>>> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >>>>>> Hi,
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
                >>>>>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
                >>>>>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
                >>>>>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> :P
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> Cheers,
                >>>>>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                >>>>>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
                >>>>>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Then under size increases:
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> -- david
                >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                >>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
                >>>>>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
                >>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>> mcv.
                >>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>> Hi,
                >>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
                >>>>>>>>> it got bigger.
                >>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                >>>>>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                >>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
                >>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
                >>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
                >>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
                >>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                >>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                >>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>
                >>>> Related Lists
                >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>>
                >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>>> (for new official data source development)
                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Related Lists
                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>
                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>> (for new official data source development)
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >> --
                >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Related Lists
                >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>
                >>
                >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>
                >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >> (for new official data source development)
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Related Lists
                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >
                >
                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >
                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > (for new official data source development)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martijn Vos
                I don t quite understand what you mean by the even or odd score. Can racial bonuses only ever be even, and therefore the workaround is to start with an odd
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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                  I don't quite understand what you mean by the even or odd score. Can racial bonuses only ever be even, and therefore the workaround is to start with an odd base?

                  I probably got my 6.00.0 RC1 because I really needed a feature from 6.0 before it was officially released. I should update. Actually I also have 6.00.0, but for some reason I created this character on RC1.

                  My feat list doesn't have Ability Focus, Awesome Blow, Craft Construct, Empower Spell-Like Ability (it does have Empower Spell), Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (it does have Quicken Spell), Snatch nor Wingover.

                  The only feat from your list I do have is Multiattack.


                  Regards,
                  Martijn.

                  On Feb 15, 2013, at 5:19 PM, Andrew wrote:

                  > The Eagle should be getting a Kit Applied which has this line:
                  > STAT:DEX=11|STR=10|CON=10|INT=10|WIS=10|CHA=10
                  >
                  > That is supposed to set the default starting stats for you.
                  >
                  > And no, Races are either 10 or 11 based upon whether they have an Even or Odd score. The bonus is
                  > derived by removing the 10 or 11 if the score is Even or Odd. (I could cite the rule, but I just
                  > finished a 24 hour shift and am beat, so I'll trust you can take my word on it).
                  >
                  > There is no RC1 released yet. Just 6.0 or 6.1.01.
                  >
                  > Hide is Dex Based - 17 Dex = 3; I'm probably getting my size mod mixed up (I'll blame lack of sleep)
                  > for the other +4 which is where your final value of +7 comes from.
                  >
                  > Sadly, the Errata wasn't released in the RSRD (Revised System Resource Document) so it's not part of
                  > our release.
                  >
                  > And yes, it's easy to add things. The easiest method is to just add a point in your feat box and
                  > give the Animal the feat. However, as I assume it's a bonus feat, the technically correct manner is
                  > VFEAT:Alertness on the race line of the race in question.
                  >
                  > What Monster Feats are you missing?
                  > I have the entire list as:
                  > Ability Focus
                  > Awesome Blow
                  > Craft Construct
                  > Empower Spell-Like Ability
                  > Flyby Attack
                  > Hover
                  > Improved Natural Armor
                  > Improved Natural Attack
                  > Multiattack
                  > Multiweapon Fighting
                  > Quicken Spell-Like Ability
                  > Snatch
                  > Wingover
                  >
                  > Beyond that, your animal may take any regular feat they qualify for.
                  >
                  > Anyways, I'm heading to bed, hopefully someone else can help track down your missing Dex point.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2/15/2013 7:53 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >> Why is Dex 11+4 and not 10+4? I mean, that would be the easy way for me to fix it, but shouldn't all stats start at a base of 10?
                  >>
                  >> But if we get the eagle to start at 15, he'd end up with a Dex of 17 at druid level 8. So my 18 must have been wrong. No idea where I got that from.
                  >>
                  >> I'm currently using 6.00.0 RC1.
                  >>
                  >> I understand the jump penalty.
                  >>
                  >> For Hide, d20srd doesn't mention the skill at all. PCGen has a +4 misc mod, leading my eagle to have a Hide of +7. 1 of those 4 is apparently a size mod, but where do the other 3 come from?
                  >>
                  >> I wasn't aware of the RSRD, and considered d20srd canonical. Google did turn up http://www.reality.net/dnd/rsrd/monstersAnimal.html which indeed shows the +2 and +14.
                  >> On dandwiki.com, it seems an errata has given eagles Alertness, resulting in the additional +2 for Spot and Listen. Is that errata not an official one?
                  >>
                  >> Is there an easy way to give my eagle Alertness without using up the extra feats he should get? (Not that I'm going to use them, with the monster feats missing.)
                  >>
                  >> Anyway, I think I now understand how it works.
                  >>
                  >> The main weird things remaining are the missing point of Dex, and the lack of monster feats.
                  >>
                  >> I suppose using different sources could fix the missing monster feats, though it's weird that the default 3.5 sources do support animal companions, but not their feats.
                  >> Any idea if there are sources that use the fully errata'd version on d20srd?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >> Martijn.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On Feb 15, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Hi Martjin,
                  >>>
                  >>> BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches
                  >>> the +2 you cited.
                  >>>
                  >>> You don't get Odd Racial Adjustments in 3.5, they are always even +2, +4, +6. An Eagle starts with a
                  >>> DEX of 11+4= 15
                  >>> Animal Companions shouldn't be gaining Level Based Stat Boosts from Bonus HD granted by a Master.
                  >>>
                  >>> Skills - Well, looks like Spot is 4 ranks +2 Wisdom +8 Racial Boost =14, Hide is untrained +3 (Dex
                  >>> 17) + 1 (Small) = 4; Listen is +2 (Wisdom)
                  >>> and Jump, is due to the Ground Move of 10 [Every -10 Move from 30 is -6 Penalty IIRC] (You ever see
                  >>> an Eagle Pole Vault?)
                  >>>
                  >>> And the RSRD lists the Eagle as:
                  >>>
                  >>> *Skills:***
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Listen +2, Spot +14
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> So, that is what the Eagle is coded to be. The website is nice, but it isn't the Publisher RSRD
                  >>> Files that we coded the Animal to meet. If you want to make a copy that matches another source, feel
                  >>> free, that is the freedom you may exercise with those sets on your computer. But the master file
                  >>> says Eagle gets Spot +14, and consequently has a Listen of +2. Means all 4 Ranks available had to go
                  >>> into Spot.
                  >>>
                  >>> The only thing off from this whole review is your Eagle's Dex, which as you've stated should be 17
                  >>> not 16. Are you using 6.0 or 6.1.1?
                  >>>
                  >>> On 2/15/2013 4:45 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >>>> I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
                  >>>> An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Regards,
                  >>>> Martijn.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> Hi,
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Fortunately they already have.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid≠s (or ranger≠s) animal
                  >>>>> companion as the master≠s level goes up, does the animal
                  >>>>> get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
                  >>>>> companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
                  >>>>> and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
                  >>>>> wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
                  >>>>> the MM, an ≥advanced≈ wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
                  >>>>> Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> A: An animal companion doesn≠t get bigger when it adds extra
                  >>>>> Hit Dice for the master≠s levels. The advancement entries for
                  >>>>> creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
                  >>>>> unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
                  >>>>> perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
                  >>>>> following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
                  >>>>> in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
                  >>>>> simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
                  >>>>> tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Cheers,
                  >>>>> James.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
                  >>>>>> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
                  >>>>>> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
                  >>>>>> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
                  >>>>>> way to go.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> -- david
                  >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                  >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                  >>>>>> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>>>>>> Hi,
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
                  >>>>>>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
                  >>>>>>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
                  >>>>>>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> :P
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Cheers,
                  >>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                  >>>>>>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
                  >>>>>>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> Then under size increases:
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> -- david
                  >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                  >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                  >>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                  >>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
                  >>>>>>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
                  >>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>> mcv.
                  >>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                  >>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
                  >>>>>>>>>> it got bigger.
                  >>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                  >>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Related Lists
                  >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Related Lists
                  >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  >>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  >>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  >>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Related Lists
                  >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>
                  >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Related Lists
                  >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>
                  >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >> (for new official data source development)
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > --
                  > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Related Lists
                  > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >
                  >
                  > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >
                  > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > (for new official data source development)
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • rogerwllco
                  I can answer the first question: Yes. Racial stat adjustments are always defined in multiples of 2 in DnD, most monsters have an unadjusted list of stats of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 15, 2013
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                    I can answer the first question: Yes. Racial stat adjustments are always defined in multiples of 2 in DnD, most monsters have an unadjusted list of stats of 11,10,11,10,11,10 before adjustments, for example all Dragons.
                    Some have other combinations of 11's and 10's. All elementals seem to have 10,11,10,10,11,11 or 10,10,11,10,11,11, etc.

                    Cheers,

                    Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco

                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Martijn Vos <mcvmcv@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't quite understand what you mean by the even or odd score. Can racial bonuses only ever be even, and therefore the workaround is to start with an odd base?
                    >
                    > I probably got my 6.00.0 RC1 because I really needed a feature from 6.0 before it was officially released. I should update. Actually I also have 6.00.0, but for some reason I created this character on RC1.
                    >
                    > My feat list doesn't have Ability Focus, Awesome Blow, Craft Construct, Empower Spell-Like Ability (it does have Empower Spell), Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (it does have Quicken Spell), Snatch nor Wingover.
                    >
                    > The only feat from your list I do have is Multiattack.
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Martijn.
                    >
                    > On Feb 15, 2013, at 5:19 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >
                    > > The Eagle should be getting a Kit Applied which has this line:
                    > > STAT:DEX=11|STR=10|CON=10|INT=10|WIS=10|CHA=10
                    > >
                    > > That is supposed to set the default starting stats for you.
                    > >
                    > > And no, Races are either 10 or 11 based upon whether they have an Even or Odd score. The bonus is
                    > > derived by removing the 10 or 11 if the score is Even or Odd. (I could cite the rule, but I just
                    > > finished a 24 hour shift and am beat, so I'll trust you can take my word on it).
                    > >
                    > > There is no RC1 released yet. Just 6.0 or 6.1.01.
                    > >
                    > > Hide is Dex Based - 17 Dex = 3; I'm probably getting my size mod mixed up (I'll blame lack of sleep)
                    > > for the other +4 which is where your final value of +7 comes from.
                    > >
                    > > Sadly, the Errata wasn't released in the RSRD (Revised System Resource Document) so it's not part of
                    > > our release.
                    > >
                    > > And yes, it's easy to add things. The easiest method is to just add a point in your feat box and
                    > > give the Animal the feat. However, as I assume it's a bonus feat, the technically correct manner is
                    > > VFEAT:Alertness on the race line of the race in question.
                    > >
                    > > What Monster Feats are you missing?
                    > > I have the entire list as:
                    > > Ability Focus
                    > > Awesome Blow
                    > > Craft Construct
                    > > Empower Spell-Like Ability
                    > > Flyby Attack
                    > > Hover
                    > > Improved Natural Armor
                    > > Improved Natural Attack
                    > > Multiattack
                    > > Multiweapon Fighting
                    > > Quicken Spell-Like Ability
                    > > Snatch
                    > > Wingover
                    > >
                    > > Beyond that, your animal may take any regular feat they qualify for.
                    > >
                    > > Anyways, I'm heading to bed, hopefully someone else can help track down your missing Dex point.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 2/15/2013 7:53 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >> Why is Dex 11+4 and not 10+4? I mean, that would be the easy way for me to fix it, but shouldn't all stats start at a base of 10?
                    > >>
                    > >> But if we get the eagle to start at 15, he'd end up with a Dex of 17 at druid level 8. So my 18 must have been wrong. No idea where I got that from.
                    > >>
                    > >> I'm currently using 6.00.0 RC1.
                    > >>
                    > >> I understand the jump penalty.
                    > >>
                    > >> For Hide, d20srd doesn't mention the skill at all. PCGen has a +4 misc mod, leading my eagle to have a Hide of +7. 1 of those 4 is apparently a size mod, but where do the other 3 come from?
                    > >>
                    > >> I wasn't aware of the RSRD, and considered d20srd canonical. Google did turn up http://www.reality.net/dnd/rsrd/monstersAnimal.html which indeed shows the +2 and +14.
                    > >> On dandwiki.com, it seems an errata has given eagles Alertness, resulting in the additional +2 for Spot and Listen. Is that errata not an official one?
                    > >>
                    > >> Is there an easy way to give my eagle Alertness without using up the extra feats he should get? (Not that I'm going to use them, with the monster feats missing.)
                    > >>
                    > >> Anyway, I think I now understand how it works.
                    > >>
                    > >> The main weird things remaining are the missing point of Dex, and the lack of monster feats.
                    > >>
                    > >> I suppose using different sources could fix the missing monster feats, though it's weird that the default 3.5 sources do support animal companions, but not their feats.
                    > >> Any idea if there are sources that use the fully errata'd version on d20srd?
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Regards,
                    > >> Martijn.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> On Feb 15, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> Hi Martjin,
                    > >>>
                    > >>> BONUS:STAT|STR|1 BONUS:STAT|DEX|1 granted at Level 3 and every three levels beyond. This matches
                    > >>> the +2 you cited.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> You don't get Odd Racial Adjustments in 3.5, they are always even +2, +4, +6. An Eagle starts with a
                    > >>> DEX of 11+4= 15
                    > >>> Animal Companions shouldn't be gaining Level Based Stat Boosts from Bonus HD granted by a Master.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Skills - Well, looks like Spot is 4 ranks +2 Wisdom +8 Racial Boost =14, Hide is untrained +3 (Dex
                    > >>> 17) + 1 (Small) = 4; Listen is +2 (Wisdom)
                    > >>> and Jump, is due to the Ground Move of 10 [Every -10 Move from 30 is -6 Penalty IIRC] (You ever see
                    > >>> an Eagle Pole Vault?)
                    > >>>
                    > >>> And the RSRD lists the Eagle as:
                    > >>>
                    > >>> *Skills:***
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Listen +2, Spot +14
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> So, that is what the Eagle is coded to be. The website is nice, but it isn't the Publisher RSRD
                    > >>> Files that we coded the Animal to meet. If you want to make a copy that matches another source, feel
                    > >>> free, that is the freedom you may exercise with those sets on your computer. But the master file
                    > >>> says Eagle gets Spot +14, and consequently has a Listen of +2. Means all 4 Ranks available had to go
                    > >>> into Spot.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> The only thing off from this whole review is your Eagle's Dex, which as you've stated should be 17
                    > >>> not 16. Are you using 6.0 or 6.1.1?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> On 2/15/2013 4:45 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >>>> I have added Eagle to the Block:Animal Companion Size work-around, and it works in that my eagle now stays small.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Not everything is right, however; somehow, my eagle's Dex is only 16, when my old character sheet says 18.
                    > >>>> An Eagle starts with Dex 15, should get +2 to Str and Dex because my Druid is level 8, so it should be at least 17. Where I got that last +1 from, I'm not sure. Maybe I gave him the level 4 stat increase when he reached +4 HD? I'm not sure.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> In any case, PCGen does give a +2 Misc Adj to Str and Dex, but only a +4 Race Adj to Dex, which should probably have been +5.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> There also seems to be a discrepancy with skill bonuses. Somehow my char sheet says Listen +4 and Spot +16, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm says only Spot +8. Meanwhile PCGen gives Spot +8, Hide +4 and Jump -12.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> As a final point, (most of the) monster feats aren't available. It doesn't seem very sensible to give an eagle regular feats.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Regards,
                    > >>>> Martijn.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:09 AM, James Dempsey wrote:
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>> Hi,
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Fortunately they already have.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> From the 3.5 FAQ at https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Q: When you add Hit Dice to a druid≠s (or ranger≠s) animal
                    > >>>>> companion as the master≠s level goes up, does the animal
                    > >>>>> get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
                    > >>>>> companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
                    > >>>>> and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
                    > >>>>> wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
                    > >>>>> the MM, an ≥advanced≈ wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
                    > >>>>> Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> A: An animal companion doesn≠t get bigger when it adds extra
                    > >>>>> Hit Dice for the master≠s levels. The advancement entries for
                    > >>>>> creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
                    > >>>>> unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
                    > >>>>> perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Now, we already deal with this. See rsrd_companionmods.lst and the lines
                    > >>>>> following "###Block:Animal Companion Size work-around" however nowhere
                    > >>>>> in that section is there an eagle entry. So I think the fix for this is
                    > >>>>> simple, just add an entry there for eagle. Andrew, I'll transfer the
                    > >>>>> tracker you opened to data and link in some other references I found.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Cheers,
                    > >>>>> James.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> On 20/01/2013 4:40 AM David R. Bender wrote
                    > >>>>>> As this is 3.5, I doubt that WotC will "officially" rule on anything. As
                    > >>>>>> much as I *really* dislikesaying this, perhaps an option to turn on /
                    > >>>>>> turn off the automatic size increases for animal companionsmight be the
                    > >>>>>> way to go.
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> -- david
                    > >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                    > >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    > >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    > >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    > >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    > >>>>>> On 1/19/2013 12:34 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    > >>>>>>> Hi,
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>> We might need to get an official ruling. Since the HD increase is not natural. If the Druid
                    > >>>>>>> dismisses the Eagle does it really shrink back down? Remember, the Druid is granting BONUS HD, which
                    > >>>>>>> if you ever read, exceeds the natural HD max of all Animals eventually (Unless you jump into the
                    > >>>>>>> larger beings where the Bonus HD is a drop of water).
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>> I know Paizo they have the Size Increases, or an alternative path.
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>> Step right up folks, see the amazing Growing and Shrinking Animals at Hadley's Circus of exotic animals!
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>> :P
                    > >>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>> Cheers,
                    > >>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 9:02 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>> Yes. Look under Eagle in the bestiary, and the advancement line has:
                    > >>>>>>>> Advancement<cid:part1.05020503.02020809@...>: 2-3 HD (Medium)
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> That is why it becomes medium size.
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> Then under size increases:
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> Old Size^1 New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> -- david
                    > >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                    > >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    > >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                    > >>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    > >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    > >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    > >>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 11:55 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure there's some rule that says it has to get bigger, because not only does PCGen does this, but my DM also said the same thing, and then ruled against it.
                    > >>>>>>>>> I just don't understand the animal companion and animal advancement rules well enough to understand why or when it has to get bigger.
                    > >>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>> mcv.
                    > >>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                    > >>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>> Indeed, it is supposed to be Small. Very odd. Well that explains the reason it's off. Now to see why
                    > >>>>>>>>>> it got bigger.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>> On 1/19/2013 8:22 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> I've got 6.00.0 RC1, with SRD 3.5 for Players loaded.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I don't quite understand the rules for Animal Companions (in fact I'm pretty sure I don't), but I was under the impression my Animal Companion should have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, rather than Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14. It's quite likely I made an error, but the differences seem much larger than I'd expect.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> Also, aren't eagles small rather than medium? Although I do seem to remember my DM had an issue with this, mentioning that my eagle should grow in size at some point, which he thought was silly. Exactly why or when an animal would grow a size, I can't find anywhere, but http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement does say that going from small to medium would mean Str +4, Dex -2 and Con +2, so that seems to explain most of the difference. No idea where my extra point of Dex came from, though.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> I'll play a bit more with this to see if I can get better results now that I understand it a bit better. Is there an easy way to remove the automatic size increase?
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Martijn,
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>> I see you are running 3.5e. What version of PCGen are you running and what sources do you have loaded?
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>> I've created a Lvl 8 Druid with an Eagle Animal Companion and the Stats are correct as expected by the rules, i.e. Str:16, Dex:15 , Con:14 , Int:2 , Wis:14 , Cha:6.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen has fully supported Animal Companions, and all other types of special companions, for many years. Not that bugs don't creep in from time to time, but the stable releases should be rock solid, at least for non-beta data set.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:12 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd hoped someone could enlighten me on this. It seems PCGen starts animal companions from base stats of 0 instead of 10, and then adds racial adjustments from there. But even then the stats end up wrong. To reach the correct final stats, I need to make my "editable score" for Str 6, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 10 and Cha 10. So for the mental stats it seems to work, but not for the physical stats. Any idea what the problem is here?
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or are animal companions simply not well supported by PCGen?
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Martijn Vos wrote:
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having used PCGen with reasonable success for Pathfinder, I just decided to recreate a 3.5 character in PCGen. I'm already discovering all sorts of miscalculations I made (too few HP, 1 unspent skillpoint), so that's good. But the Animal Companion doesn't work.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Druid is level 8 and has an eagle as AC. It should be small, have Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, or stats somewhere in that vicinity at least. (I'm sure I've made lots of mistakes with my companion. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm for the official stats of an unenhanced eagle.) But instead, I get an eagle that's medium, yet has Str 6, Dex 4, Con 4, Int -8 (how is that even possible?), Wis 4 and Cha -4.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously that's not even remotely close. So I'm wondering how PCGen could end up with such completely weird stats.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me that creating a familiar for my Wizard in Pathfinder also got weird. But I haven't really looked into the details of that yet.
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mcv.
                    > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Related Lists
                    > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Related Lists
                    > >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > >>>> (for new official data source development)
                    > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>> --
                    > >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    > >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    > >>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    > >>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    > >>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Related Lists
                    > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    > >>>
                    > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > >>> (for new official data source development)
                    > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Related Lists
                    > >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    > >>
                    > >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > >> (for new official data source development)
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Related Lists
                    > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    > >
                    > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > > (for new official data source development)
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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