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Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources

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  • David R. Bender
    PCGen 6.00.0, Pathfinder data (alpha and d20ogl) at SVN 18526, Pathfinder Core Rulebook only loaded. Create a wizard, and choose familiar for arcane bond. The
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2012
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      PCGen 6.00.0, Pathfinder data (alpha and d20ogl) at SVN 18526,
      Pathfinder Core Rulebook only loaded.

      Create a wizard, and choose familiar for arcane bond. The list of
      familiars are the ones from the Core Rulebook only (Bat, Cat,Hawk,
      Lizard, Monkey,Owl,Rat, Raven, Toad, Viper, Weasel) *and* Compsognathus
      (from Bestiary II) since that is the one I opened a Jira on (Data-788).

      My questioning/ pondering is if the Core Rulebookonly is loaded, should
      all the familiars from the various other books (Bestiary I, II, III,
      APG, U*) be loaded, or just the ones from the Core Rulebook?

      What do you guys think?
      --

      -- david
      Papa.DRB

      My better half and me (jpg)
      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>

      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
    • Barak
      Only those from the books you loaded should be available. Some gamemasters only allow certain books, so we really need to only show/allow stuff from the
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2012
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        Only those from the books you loaded should be available. Some gamemasters
        only allow certain books, so we really need to only show/allow stuff from
        the specific books loaded.

        Barak
        On Dec 1, 2012 10:57 AM, "David R. Bender" <Papa.DRB@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > PCGen 6.00.0, Pathfinder data (alpha and d20ogl) at SVN 18526,
        > Pathfinder Core Rulebook only loaded.
        >
        > Create a wizard, and choose familiar for arcane bond. The list of
        > familiars are the ones from the Core Rulebook only (Bat, Cat,Hawk,
        > Lizard, Monkey,Owl,Rat, Raven, Toad, Viper, Weasel) *and* Compsognathus
        > (from Bestiary II) since that is the one I opened a Jira on (Data-788).
        >
        > My questioning/ pondering is if the Core Rulebookonly is loaded, should
        > all the familiars from the various other books (Bestiary I, II, III,
        > APG, U*) be loaded, or just the ones from the Core Rulebook?
        >
        > What do you guys think?
        > --
        >
        > -- david
        > Papa.DRB
        >
        > My better half and me (jpg)
        > <
        > https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
        >
        >
        > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
        >
        > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
        > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
        > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David R. Bender
        Wow, the boss s boss answered. heh. However, I disagree. As a GM, I would allow the familiars, but there is no reason for the complete variousbestiary s to be
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2012
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          Wow, the boss's boss answered. heh.

          However, I disagree.

          As a GM, I would allow the familiars, but there is no reason for the
          complete variousbestiary's to be loaded. My guys are all computer geeks
          (all but one worked/works for the Itty Bitty Machine Corporation, and
          the other is a geek where he works), but too much information in the
          "race" drop down seems a bit much for my likes.

          But, I am willing to go along with whatever decision is made. I'd just
          like it made before Andrew,or I, or someone else spends too much time
          doing it one way and then havingto undo it.

          -- david
          Papa.DRB

          My better half and me (jpg)
          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>

          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
          On 12/1/2012 11:57 AM, Barak wrote:
          > Only those from the books you loaded should be available. Some gamemasters
          > only allow certain books, so we really need to only show/allow stuff from
          > the specific books loaded.
          >
          > Barak
          > On Dec 1, 2012 10:57 AM, "David R. Bender" <Papa.DRB@...> wrote:
          >
          >> **
          >>
          >>
          >> PCGen 6.00.0, Pathfinder data (alpha and d20ogl) at SVN 18526,
          >> Pathfinder Core Rulebook only loaded.
          >>
          >> Create a wizard, and choose familiar for arcane bond. The list of
          >> familiars are the ones from the Core Rulebook only (Bat, Cat,Hawk,
          >> Lizard, Monkey,Owl,Rat, Raven, Toad, Viper, Weasel) *and* Compsognathus
          >> (from Bestiary II) since that is the one I opened a Jira on (Data-788).
          >>
          >> My questioning/ pondering is if the Core Rulebookonly is loaded, should
          >> all the familiars from the various other books (Bestiary I, II, III,
          >> APG, U*) be loaded, or just the ones from the Core Rulebook?
          >>
          >> What do you guys think?
          >> --
          >>
          >> -- david
          >> Papa.DRB
        • Andrew
          Hi, You re contradicting what we ve talked about then. We have third and fourth tier supplements that add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2012
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            Hi,

            You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth tier supplements that
            add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently to prevent files from
            being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all* companions to avoid the
            numerous errors we're already getting.

            On 12/1/2012 8:57 AM, Barak wrote:
            > Only those from the books you loaded should be available. Some gamemasters
            > only allow certain books, so we really need to only show/allow stuff from
            > the specific books loaded.
            >
            > Barak
            > On Dec 1, 2012 10:57 AM, "David R. Bender" <Papa.DRB@...> wrote:
            >
            >> **
            >>
            >>
            >> PCGen 6.00.0, Pathfinder data (alpha and d20ogl) at SVN 18526,
            >> Pathfinder Core Rulebook only loaded.
            >>
            >> Create a wizard, and choose familiar for arcane bond. The list of
            >> familiars are the ones from the Core Rulebook only (Bat, Cat,Hawk,
            >> Lizard, Monkey,Owl,Rat, Raven, Toad, Viper, Weasel) *and* Compsognathus
            >> (from Bestiary II) since that is the one I opened a Jira on (Data-788).
            >>
            >> My questioning/ pondering is if the Core Rulebookonly is loaded, should
            >> all the familiars from the various other books (Bestiary I, II, III,
            >> APG, U*) be loaded, or just the ones from the Core Rulebook?
            >>
            >> What do you guys think?
            >> --
            >>
            >> -- david
            >> Papa.DRB
            >>
            >> My better half and me (jpg)
            >> <
            >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
            >>
            >>
            >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
            >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
            >>
            >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
            >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
            >>
            >>
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Barak
            Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I said earlier is how I ve always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure it
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2012
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              Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
              said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
              it out.



              My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
              loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
              will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
              I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
              make our (PCGen developer) life easier.



              Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
              the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
              of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
              *specifically* loaded.



              Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
              simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
              into the core that isn't actually from the core.



              Barak



              You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
              tier supplements that
              add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
              to prevent files from
              being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
              companions to avoid the
              numerous errors we're already getting.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • FerretDave
              Greetings, My view is that if you haven t loaded the book, then you shouldn t get the options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
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                Greetings,

                My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book B.
                If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.

                I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that actually defines them.

                There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book B...

                Cheers
                D

                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                > said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                > it out.
                >
                >
                >
                > My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                > loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                > will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                > I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                > make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                >
                >
                >
                > Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                > the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                > of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                > *specifically* loaded.
                >
                >
                >
                > Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                > simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                > into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                >
                >
                >
                > Barak
                >
                >
                >
                > You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                > tier supplements that
                > add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                > to prevent files from
                > being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                > companions to avoid the
                > numerous errors we're already getting.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Ragabash Moon
                I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don t allow certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it s new)
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
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                  I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                  certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                  so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                  that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.




                  RagabashMoon@...





                  ________________________________
                  From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@...>
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                  Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources


                  Greetings,

                  My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                  options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                  B.

                  If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                  only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.

                  I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                  datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                  A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                  actually defines them.

                  There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                  as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                  B...


                  Cheers
                  D

                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                  > said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                  > it out.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                  > loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                  > will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                  > I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                  > make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                  > the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                  > of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                  > *specifically* loaded.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                  > simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                  > into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Barak
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                  > tier supplements that
                  > add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                  > to prevent files from
                  > being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                  > companions to avoid the
                  > numerous errors we're already getting.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Andrew
                  Hi Folks, I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don t get access to them unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
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                    Hi Folks,

                    I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                    unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                    unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.

                    1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                    core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                    not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                    2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                    Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                    Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.

                    So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                    and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                    shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                    crossing has come into play.

                    If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                    player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                    and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                    ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                    bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                    Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                    X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                    a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                    loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.

                    From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                    creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                    class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                    out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                    will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                    I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                    X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                    perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.

                    We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                    This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                    always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                    major stances.)

                    I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                    happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                    given, people will agree this is the best course of action.

                    Cheers,

                    On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                    > I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                    > certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                    > so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                    > that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > RagabashMoon@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@...>
                    > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                    > Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                    > options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                    > B.
                    >
                    > If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                    > only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                    >
                    > I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                    > datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                    > A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                    > actually defines them.
                    >
                    > There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                    > as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                    > B...
                    >
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > D
                    >
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@...> wrote:
                    >> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                    >> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                    >> it out.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                    >> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                    >> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                    >> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                    >> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                    >> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                    >> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                    >> *specifically* loaded.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                    >> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                    >> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Barak
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                    >> tier supplements that
                    >> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                    >> to prevent files from
                    >> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                    >> companions to avoid the
                    >> numerous errors we're already getting.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Related Lists
                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >
                    >
                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >
                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > (for new official data source development)
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • FerretDave
                    Greetings, ... That s the goal! ;-) ... But *only* when you load that expanded book, that s the gist of it here I think. We don t want to see that T-Rex mount
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
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                      Greetings,
                      >it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                      That's the goal! ;-)

                      >expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book

                      But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.

                      >inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                      Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.

                      >I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                      Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.

                      If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)

                      However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                      It just needs some minor reconsideration...

                      I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.

                      What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.

                      Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.

                      We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.

                      Cheers
                      Dave

                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Folks,
                      >
                      > I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                      > unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                      > unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                      >
                      > 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                      > core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                      > not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                      > 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                      > Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                      > Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                      >
                      > So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                      > and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                      > shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                      > crossing has come into play.
                      >
                      > If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                      > player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                      > and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                      > ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                      > bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                      > Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                      > X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                      > a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                      > loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                      >
                      > From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                      > creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                      > class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                      > out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                      > will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                      > I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                      > X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                      > perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                      >
                      > We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                      > This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                      > always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                      > major stances.)
                      >
                      > I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                      > happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                      > given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                      > > I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                      > > certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                      > > so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                      > > that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > RagabashMoon@...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@...>
                      > > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                      > > Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Greetings,
                      > >
                      > > My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                      > > options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                      > > B.
                      > >
                      > > If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                      > > only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                      > >
                      > > I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                      > > datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                      > > A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                      > > actually defines them.
                      > >
                      > > There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                      > > as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                      > > B...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Cheers
                      > > D
                      > >
                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                      > >> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                      > >> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                      > >> it out.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                      > >> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                      > >> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                      > >> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                      > >> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                      > >> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                      > >> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                      > >> *specifically* loaded.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                      > >> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                      > >> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Barak
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                      > >> tier supplements that
                      > >> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                      > >> to prevent files from
                      > >> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                      > >> companions to avoid the
                      > >> numerous errors we're already getting.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Related Lists
                      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      > >
                      > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > > (for new official data source development)
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Andrew
                      Hi, Yes, that s what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven t been able to confirm the validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                        validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                        through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                        core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.

                        When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                        deal with that accordingly.

                        Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.

                        Cheers,

                        On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                        > Greetings,
                        >> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                        > That's the goal! ;-)
                        >
                        >> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                        > But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                        >
                        >> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                        > Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                        >
                        >> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                        > Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                        >
                        > If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                        >
                        > However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                        > It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                        >
                        > I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                        >
                        > What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                        >
                        > Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                        >
                        > We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >> Hi Folks,
                        >>
                        >> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                        >> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                        >> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                        >>
                        >> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                        >> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                        >> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                        >> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                        >> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                        >> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                        >>
                        >> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                        >> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                        >> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                        >> crossing has come into play.
                        >>
                        >> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                        >> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                        >> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                        >> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                        >> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                        >> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                        >> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                        >> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                        >> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                        >>
                        >> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                        >> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                        >> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                        >> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                        >> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                        >> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                        >> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                        >> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                        >>
                        >> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                        >> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                        >> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                        >> major stances.)
                        >>
                        >> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                        >> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                        >> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                        >>
                        >> Cheers,
                        >>
                        >> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                        >>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                        >>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                        >>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                        >>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> RagabashMoon@...
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> ________________________________
                        >>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@...>
                        >>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                        >>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Greetings,
                        >>>
                        >>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                        >>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                        >>> B.
                        >>>
                        >>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                        >>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                        >>>
                        >>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                        >>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                        >>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                        >>> actually defines them.
                        >>>
                        >>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                        >>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                        >>> B...
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Cheers
                        >>> D
                        >>>
                        >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                        >>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                        >>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                        >>>> it out.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                        >>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                        >>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                        >>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                        >>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                        >>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                        >>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                        >>>> *specifically* loaded.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                        >>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                        >>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Barak
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                        >>>> tier supplements that
                        >>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                        >>>> to prevent files from
                        >>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                        >>>> companions to avoid the
                        >>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>
                        >>> Related Lists
                        >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >> --
                        >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Related Lists
                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >
                        >
                        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >
                        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > (for new official data source development)
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • FerretDave
                        Greetings, Yay! :-) Cheers D
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Greetings,
                          Yay! :-)

                          Cheers
                          D

                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                          > validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                          > through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                          > core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.
                          >
                          > When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                          > deal with that accordingly.
                          >
                          > Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                          > > Greetings,
                          > >> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                          > > That's the goal! ;-)
                          > >
                          > >> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                          > > But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                          > >
                          > >> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                          > > Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                          > >
                          > >> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                          > > Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                          > >
                          > > If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                          > >
                          > > However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                          > > It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                          > >
                          > > I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                          > >
                          > > What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                          > >
                          > > Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                          > >
                          > > We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers
                          > > Dave
                          > >
                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                          > >> Hi Folks,
                          > >>
                          > >> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                          > >> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                          > >> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                          > >>
                          > >> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                          > >> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                          > >> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                          > >> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                          > >> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                          > >> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                          > >>
                          > >> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                          > >> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                          > >> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                          > >> crossing has come into play.
                          > >>
                          > >> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                          > >> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                          > >> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                          > >> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                          > >> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                          > >> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                          > >> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                          > >> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                          > >> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                          > >>
                          > >> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                          > >> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                          > >> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                          > >> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                          > >> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                          > >> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                          > >> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                          > >> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                          > >>
                          > >> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                          > >> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                          > >> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                          > >> major stances.)
                          > >>
                          > >> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                          > >> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                          > >> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                          > >>
                          > >> Cheers,
                          > >>
                          > >> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                          > >>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                          > >>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                          > >>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                          > >>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> RagabashMoon@
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ________________________________
                          > >>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@>
                          > >>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                          > >>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Greetings,
                          > >>>
                          > >>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                          > >>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                          > >>> B.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                          > >>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                          > >>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                          > >>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                          > >>> actually defines them.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                          > >>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                          > >>> B...
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Cheers
                          > >>> D
                          > >>>
                          > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                          > >>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                          > >>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                          > >>>> it out.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                          > >>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                          > >>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                          > >>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                          > >>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                          > >>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                          > >>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                          > >>>> *specifically* loaded.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                          > >>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                          > >>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Barak
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                          > >>>> tier supplements that
                          > >>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                          > >>>> to prevent files from
                          > >>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                          > >>>> companions to avoid the
                          > >>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ------------------------------------
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Related Lists
                          > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          > >>>
                          > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          > >>> (for new official data source development)
                          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >> --
                          > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Related Lists
                          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          > >
                          > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          > > (for new official data source development)
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Andrew
                          Hi, So I tracked the entry down... And it s not cut and dry. Bestiary II adds new critters. We have Supplements which reference the Bestiary II Critters.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 10, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi,

                            So I tracked the entry down...

                            And it's not cut and dry. Bestiary II adds new critters. We have Supplements which reference the
                            Bestiary II Critters.

                            Options:
                            a) Allow them all regardless of loaded sets
                            b) Put a PRExxx to control when they are allowed - which then begs the question, when does the
                            prexxx trigger?
                            c) Make a new set for just those entries
                            d) Other

                            What are we wanting here?

                            On 12/3/2012 12:43 PM, FerretDave wrote:
                            > Greetings,
                            > Yay! :-)
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > D
                            >
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                            >> Hi,
                            >>
                            >> Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                            >> validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                            >> through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                            >> core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.
                            >>
                            >> When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                            >> deal with that accordingly.
                            >>
                            >> Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.
                            >>
                            >> Cheers,
                            >>
                            >> On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                            >>> Greetings,
                            >>>> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                            >>> That's the goal! ;-)
                            >>>
                            >>>> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                            >>> But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                            >>>
                            >>>> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                            >>> Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                            >>>
                            >>>> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                            >>> Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                            >>>
                            >>> If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                            >>>
                            >>> However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                            >>> It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                            >>>
                            >>> I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                            >>>
                            >>> What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                            >>>
                            >>> Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                            >>>
                            >>> We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                            >>>
                            >>> Cheers
                            >>> Dave
                            >>>
                            >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            >>>> Hi Folks,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                            >>>> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                            >>>> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                            >>>> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                            >>>> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                            >>>> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                            >>>> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                            >>>> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                            >>>> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                            >>>> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                            >>>> crossing has come into play.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                            >>>> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                            >>>> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                            >>>> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                            >>>> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                            >>>> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                            >>>> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                            >>>> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                            >>>> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                            >>>> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                            >>>> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                            >>>> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                            >>>> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                            >>>> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                            >>>> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                            >>>> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                            >>>> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                            >>>> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                            >>>> major stances.)
                            >>>>
                            >>>> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                            >>>> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                            >>>> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Cheers,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                            >>>>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                            >>>>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                            >>>>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                            >>>>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> RagabashMoon@
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> ________________________________
                            >>>>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@>
                            >>>>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            >>>>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                            >>>>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Greetings,
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                            >>>>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                            >>>>> B.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                            >>>>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                            >>>>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                            >>>>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                            >>>>> actually defines them.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                            >>>>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                            >>>>> B...
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Cheers
                            >>>>> D
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                            >>>>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                            >>>>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                            >>>>>> it out.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                            >>>>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                            >>>>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                            >>>>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                            >>>>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                            >>>>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                            >>>>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                            >>>>>> *specifically* loaded.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                            >>>>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                            >>>>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Barak
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                            >>>>>> tier supplements that
                            >>>>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                            >>>>>> to prevent files from
                            >>>>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                            >>>>>> companions to avoid the
                            >>>>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>> --
                            >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>>
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Related Lists
                            >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >> --
                            >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Related Lists
                            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >
                            >
                            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >
                            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > (for new official data source development)
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • gjorbjond
                            Personally I d rather have all the familiars and animal companion options load all the time. If I m making a PC with a familiar or companion, I don t want to
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 11, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Personally I'd rather have all the familiars and animal companion options load all the time. If I'm making a PC with a familiar or companion, I don't want to have to load up all the Bestiaries for me to see the full list of options.

                              That's a lot of extra memory and load time wasted every time I create a wizard or druid.

                              It's not like all they aren't available off the PFSRD site anyway. How many GMs would deny you the use of a particular animal companion or familiar if you had a printout of the stats from the web page?



                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > So I tracked the entry down...
                              >
                              > And it's not cut and dry. Bestiary II adds new critters. We have Supplements which reference the
                              > Bestiary II Critters.
                              >
                              > Options:
                              > a) Allow them all regardless of loaded sets
                              > b) Put a PRExxx to control when they are allowed - which then begs the question, when does the
                              > prexxx trigger?
                              > c) Make a new set for just those entries
                              > d) Other
                              >
                              > What are we wanting here?
                              >
                              > On 12/3/2012 12:43 PM, FerretDave wrote:
                              > > Greetings,
                              > > Yay! :-)
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > > D
                              > >
                              > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                              > >> Hi,
                              > >>
                              > >> Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                              > >> validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                              > >> through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                              > >> core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.
                              > >>
                              > >> When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                              > >> deal with that accordingly.
                              > >>
                              > >> Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.
                              > >>
                              > >> Cheers,
                              > >>
                              > >> On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                              > >>> Greetings,
                              > >>>> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                              > >>> That's the goal! ;-)
                              > >>>
                              > >>>> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                              > >>> But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                              > >>> Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                              > >>> Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                              > >>>
                              > >>> However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                              > >>> It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                              > >>>
                              > >>> I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Cheers
                              > >>> Dave
                              > >>>
                              > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                              > >>>> Hi Folks,
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                              > >>>> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                              > >>>> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                              > >>>> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                              > >>>> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                              > >>>> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                              > >>>> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                              > >>>> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                              > >>>> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                              > >>>> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                              > >>>> crossing has come into play.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                              > >>>> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                              > >>>> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                              > >>>> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                              > >>>> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                              > >>>> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                              > >>>> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                              > >>>> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                              > >>>> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                              > >>>> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                              > >>>> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                              > >>>> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                              > >>>> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                              > >>>> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                              > >>>> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                              > >>>> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                              > >>>> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                              > >>>> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                              > >>>> major stances.)
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                              > >>>> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                              > >>>> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Cheers,
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                              > >>>>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                              > >>>>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                              > >>>>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                              > >>>>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> RagabashMoon@
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> ________________________________
                              > >>>>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@>
                              > >>>>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>>>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                              > >>>>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Greetings,
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                              > >>>>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                              > >>>>> B.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                              > >>>>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                              > >>>>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                              > >>>>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                              > >>>>> actually defines them.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                              > >>>>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                              > >>>>> B...
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Cheers
                              > >>>>> D
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                              > >>>>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                              > >>>>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                              > >>>>>> it out.
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                              > >>>>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                              > >>>>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                              > >>>>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                              > >>>>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                              > >>>>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                              > >>>>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                              > >>>>>> *specifically* loaded.
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                              > >>>>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                              > >>>>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> Barak
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                              > >>>>>> tier supplements that
                              > >>>>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                              > >>>>>> to prevent files from
                              > >>>>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                              > >>>>>> companions to avoid the
                              > >>>>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Related Lists
                              > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>> --
                              > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>>>
                              > >>> ------------------------------------
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Related Lists
                              > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              > >>>
                              > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              > >>> (for new official data source development)
                              > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >> --
                              > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Related Lists
                              > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              > >
                              > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              > > (for new official data source development)
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • David R. Bender
                              Personally, I would like all familiars and animal companions loaded when the Core Rulebook set is loaded, however with a PRExxx on all but the Core
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 11, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Personally, I would like all familiars and animal companions loaded when
                                the Core Rulebook set is loaded, however with a PRExxx on all but the
                                Core Rulebookentries.

                                Then, have a .pcc file for each Bestiary/source that contains f/ac, and
                                one for *just* the familiars / animal companions from that source. These
                                are mutually exclusive, ie. you can only load one. So if you have f/ac
                                in Bestiary 2, 3, Pirate Familiars (book), Inner Sea Magic, etc. there
                                are two .pcc files for each one.

                                Now, using Bestiary 2 as an example, one of the .pcc files is title
                                "Bestiary 2 - Familiars and Animal Companions Only" and it contains two
                                pieces of information: 1) A PREMULT that requires the loading of the
                                Core Rulebook, and requires the "Bestiary 2 Complete" rulebook NOT be
                                loadedand 2) it contains a way to set a variable to 1, either via
                                TEMPLATE (which means you also need the template tag) or some other
                                simple way.

                                Then in the "Bestiary 2 - Complete" file, it is as normal but there is
                                the sametype of PREMULT as above, except it checks to make sure the
                                "Bestiary 2 - Familiars and Animal Companions" is NOT loaded, and it
                                contains the same variable set to 1.

                                What this accomplishes is, 1) all f/ac are loaded with Core. 2) folks
                                can *either* loadthe complete bestiaryor other books and access the
                                f/ac, or they can just make available the f/acwithout all the other
                                information, or 3) use only the core by not allowing the "complete" or
                                "f/ac only" loaded.

                                A bit more work, a 2nd but very simple .pcc file, but I think it is a
                                compromise that everyone can live with.

                                -- david
                                Papa.DRB

                                My better half and me (jpg)
                                <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>

                                Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                On 12/11/2012 9:21 AM, gjorbjond wrote:
                                > Personally I'd rather have all the familiars and animal companion options load all the time. If I'm making a PC with a familiar or companion, I don't want to have to load up all the Bestiaries for me to see the full list of options.
                                >
                                > That's a lot of extra memory and load time wasted every time I create a wizard or druid.
                                >
                                > It's not like all they aren't available off the PFSRD site anyway. How many GMs would deny you the use of a particular animal companion or familiar if you had a printout of the stats from the web page?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                >> Hi,
                                >>
                                >> So I tracked the entry down...
                                >>
                                >> And it's not cut and dry. Bestiary II adds new critters. We have Supplements which reference the
                                >> Bestiary II Critters.
                                >>
                                >> Options:
                                >> a) Allow them all regardless of loaded sets
                                >> b) Put a PRExxx to control when they are allowed - which then begs the question, when does the
                                >> prexxx trigger?
                                >> c) Make a new set for just those entries
                                >> d) Other
                                >>
                                >> What are we wanting here?
                                >>
                                >> On 12/3/2012 12:43 PM, FerretDave wrote:
                                >>> Greetings,
                                >>> Yay! :-)
                                >>>
                                >>> Cheers
                                >>> D
                                >>>
                                >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                >>>> Hi,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                                >>>> validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                                >>>> through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                                >>>> core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                                >>>> deal with that accordingly.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Cheers,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                >>>>> Greetings,
                                >>>>>> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                                >>>>> That's the goal! ;-)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                                >>>>> But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                                >>>>> Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                                >>>>> Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                                >>>>> It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Cheers
                                >>>>> Dave
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                >>>>>> Hi Folks,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                                >>>>>> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                                >>>>>> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                                >>>>>> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                                >>>>>> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                                >>>>>> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                                >>>>>> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                                >>>>>> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                                >>>>>> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                                >>>>>> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                                >>>>>> crossing has come into play.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                                >>>>>> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                                >>>>>> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                                >>>>>> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                                >>>>>> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                                >>>>>> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                                >>>>>> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                                >>>>>> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                                >>>>>> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                                >>>>>> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                                >>>>>> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                                >>>>>> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                                >>>>>> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                                >>>>>> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                                >>>>>> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                                >>>>>> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                                >>>>>> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                                >>>>>> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                                >>>>>> major stances.)
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                                >>>>>> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                                >>>>>> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> Cheers,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                                >>>>>>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                                >>>>>>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                                >>>>>>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                                >>>>>>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> RagabashMoon@
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> ________________________________
                                >>>>>>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@>
                                >>>>>>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                                >>>>>>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Greetings,
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                                >>>>>>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                                >>>>>>> B.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                                >>>>>>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                                >>>>>>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                                >>>>>>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                                >>>>>>> actually defines them.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                                >>>>>>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                                >>>>>>> B...
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Cheers
                                >>>>>>> D
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                                >>>>>>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                                >>>>>>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                                >>>>>>>> it out.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                                >>>>>>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                                >>>>>>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                                >>>>>>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                                >>>>>>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                                >>>>>>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                                >>>>>>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                                >>>>>>>> *specifically* loaded.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                                >>>>>>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                                >>>>>>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> Barak
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                                >>>>>>>> tier supplements that
                                >>>>>>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                                >>>>>>>> to prevent files from
                                >>>>>>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                                >>>>>>>> companions to avoid the
                                >>>>>>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>> --
                                >>>>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                >>>>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                >>>>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                >>>>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                >>>>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>> --
                                >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>>
                                >>>
                                >>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>
                                >>> Related Lists
                                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>
                                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >> --
                                >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Related Lists
                                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >
                                >
                                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >
                                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                > (for new official data source development)
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • FerretDave
                                Greetings, Responding to three posts in one... ... I disagree, but that s my opinion ;-) ... Agreed! ... Enough... and while most may be happy to allow, many
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 13, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Greetings,
                                  Responding to three posts in one...

                                  >I'd rather have all the familiars and animal companion options load all the time.
                                  I disagree, but that's my opinion ;-)

                                  >I don't want to have to load up all the Bestiaries
                                  Agreed!

                                  >How many GMs would deny you the use of a particular animal companion or familiar
                                  Enough... and while most may be happy to allow, many may well say 'stick to these specific books'.

                                  My preference is that I don't have a load of familiars/companions (or other options) appearing unnecessarily. Particularly I dont want a player loading up just the sources I've said are ok, and then thinking he can take the fancy familiar just because it's on the list in PCGen.

                                  >b) Put a PRExxx to control when they are allowed - which then begs the question, when does the prexxx trigger?

                                  If *all* familiars are defined/loaded in the core rules (but have prexxx to prevent usage of any non-core), then the prexxx is set by loading *any* source that defines/references that familiar/ac.

                                  > Then, have a .pcc file for each Bestiary/source that contains f/ac
                                  I like this idea, however, make it a step easier - rather than one pcc for each source, have just one more for core - with all familiars.

                                  Most users are either going to use a source, or not, so they'll load that source and then have the relevant familiars available. Other users are fine tuning which sources they load, but want all familiars regardless of source - so just activate them all.
                                  The one extra pcc can just define all the PREXXX and then load the standard core pcc.


                                  Cheers
                                  D



                                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "David R. Bender" <Papa.DRB@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Personally, I would like all familiars and animal companions loaded when
                                  > the Core Rulebook set is loaded, however with a PRExxx on all but the
                                  > Core Rulebookentries.
                                  >
                                  > Then, have a .pcc file for each Bestiary/source that contains f/ac, and
                                  > one for *just* the familiars / animal companions from that source. These
                                  > are mutually exclusive, ie. you can only load one. So if you have f/ac
                                  > in Bestiary 2, 3, Pirate Familiars (book), Inner Sea Magic, etc. there
                                  > are two .pcc files for each one.
                                  >
                                  > Now, using Bestiary 2 as an example, one of the .pcc files is title
                                  > "Bestiary 2 - Familiars and Animal Companions Only" and it contains two
                                  > pieces of information: 1) A PREMULT that requires the loading of the
                                  > Core Rulebook, and requires the "Bestiary 2 Complete" rulebook NOT be
                                  > loadedand 2) it contains a way to set a variable to 1, either via
                                  > TEMPLATE (which means you also need the template tag) or some other
                                  > simple way.
                                  >
                                  > Then in the "Bestiary 2 - Complete" file, it is as normal but there is
                                  > the sametype of PREMULT as above, except it checks to make sure the
                                  > "Bestiary 2 - Familiars and Animal Companions" is NOT loaded, and it
                                  > contains the same variable set to 1.
                                  >
                                  > What this accomplishes is, 1) all f/ac are loaded with Core. 2) folks
                                  > can *either* loadthe complete bestiaryor other books and access the
                                  > f/ac, or they can just make available the f/acwithout all the other
                                  > information, or 3) use only the core by not allowing the "complete" or
                                  > "f/ac only" loaded.
                                  >
                                  > A bit more work, a 2nd but very simple .pcc file, but I think it is a
                                  > compromise that everyone can live with.
                                  >
                                  > -- david
                                  > Papa.DRB
                                  >
                                  > My better half and me (jpg)
                                  > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >
                                  > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcfFekSbHQ&ob=av3e>
                                  >
                                  > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  > On 12/11/2012 9:21 AM, gjorbjond wrote:
                                  > > Personally I'd rather have all the familiars and animal companion options load all the time. If I'm making a PC with a familiar or companion, I don't want to have to load up all the Bestiaries for me to see the full list of options.
                                  > >
                                  > > That's a lot of extra memory and load time wasted every time I create a wizard or druid.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's not like all they aren't available off the PFSRD site anyway. How many GMs would deny you the use of a particular animal companion or familiar if you had a printout of the stats from the web page?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                  > >> Hi,
                                  > >>
                                  > >> So I tracked the entry down...
                                  > >>
                                  > >> And it's not cut and dry. Bestiary II adds new critters. We have Supplements which reference the
                                  > >> Bestiary II Critters.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Options:
                                  > >> a) Allow them all regardless of loaded sets
                                  > >> b) Put a PRExxx to control when they are allowed - which then begs the question, when does the
                                  > >> prexxx trigger?
                                  > >> c) Make a new set for just those entries
                                  > >> d) Other
                                  > >>
                                  > >> What are we wanting here?
                                  > >>
                                  > >> On 12/3/2012 12:43 PM, FerretDave wrote:
                                  > >>> Greetings,
                                  > >>> Yay! :-)
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Cheers
                                  > >>> D
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                  > >>>> Hi,
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> Yes, that's what is set up. There is one creature cited and I haven't been able to confirm the
                                  > >>>> validity of the report. Bogged down with other issues at the moment. In the middle of pushing sets
                                  > >>>> through final review and moving them to d20ogl as full releases. Point is, the stuff is hiding in
                                  > >>>> core, but shouldn't be available till you load the proper book. Which is as it was intended to work.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> When I get around to looking at the one cited creature, I'll track down what is granting it, and
                                  > >>>> deal with that accordingly.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> Till then, I think the current set up is working as intended.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> Cheers,
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> On 12/3/2012 10:45 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                  > >>>>> Greetings,
                                  > >>>>>> it should not be required for the player to track down where those options are
                                  > >>>>> That's the goal! ;-)
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book
                                  > >>>>> But *only* when you load that expanded book, that's the gist of it here I think. We don't want to see that T-Rex mount when we've only loaded the core rule book.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                                  > >>>>> Nope, a player shouldn't have to load any of those (ever - IMHO). If a source uses something from another book, it should include that 'bit' specifically itself, so it can be used separately.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a bunch of complaints
                                  > >>>>> Definitely agree. But the choices should be limited to the actual books loaded.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> If PCGen gives me an option of a T-Rex mount when I haven't loaded the source that actually grants it, how do I know it's not allowed? (My ref might not realise that's from the book he's banned either)
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> However, I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to undo everything. We *DO NOT* want to load every book.
                                  > >>>>> It just needs some minor reconsideration...
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> I recall the big issue that got us here was that two separate sources may define the same 'thing' (feat/trait/familiar/...), so to allow for those sources to be loaded independently (ie not require both to be loaded together), the thing had to be defined in the core, so either source could then reference it, and we wouldn't get duplicate 'thing' issues if we did load both sources.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> What we want then, is that even though this thing is defined in the core, it's not actually *usable* until any of the sources that 'officially' defines it is loaded.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> Just a PREVAR on the items in the core, and any source that then defines it can set that VAR appropriately to allow it.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> We did similar recently with RSRD, to remove the 'high level' animal companions from a low level rangers choice list.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> Cheers
                                  > >>>>> Dave
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                  > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> I think wires got crossed up. Even with the companions in the core, you don't get access to them
                                  > >>>>>> unless they are specifically listed. Now, I do agree, we should not be getting access to everything
                                  > >>>>>> unless you load the correct books, but here is where I'd also point out a flaw in the reasoning here.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> 1) Say I'm a strict GM - I only allow the core player book. Where are the familiars found in the
                                  > >>>>>> core book? (Yeah, you got it, Bestiary I). Same goes for the Mounts and Animal Companions. Should I
                                  > >>>>>> not allow those in Core? No, of course not. They are part of the class feature.
                                  > >>>>>> 2) Then we have the issue of GM allows Ultimate Magic. Do I not have access to my class allowed
                                  > >>>>>> Familiars/Animal Companion/Mounts cause the GM failed to realize that half the options are in
                                  > >>>>>> Bestiary II? No, we follow the same philosophy, and give the options.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> So, with that said, I think a little leeway needs to be considered here. If I'm playing a Cavalier
                                  > >>>>>> and an expanded option is to have a T-Rex mount, I should have that option when I load the book. I
                                  > >>>>>> shouldn't be expected to load every bestiary to get my class option. And that's where the wire
                                  > >>>>>> crossing has come into play.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> If you load Ultimate X, and it grants Class A, choices d, e, f, it should not be required for the
                                  > >>>>>> player to track down where those options are, they should be available. This is where SELF-POLICING
                                  > >>>>>> and GM judgment come in. If the player took T-rex, and the GM doesn't want the T-Rex, then they have
                                  > >>>>>> ultimate veto power. I'd rather PCGen give me the choices rather than throw out errors, or have a
                                  > >>>>>> bunch of complaints "Hey, I have x class with y books, and I can't get z companion, what gives?!?!".
                                  > >>>>>> Then someone has to take the time to inform them to load Bestiary I, II or II or Folio of Monsters
                                  > >>>>>> X. And that my friends is what I'm doing. I'm making sure if you load Book X and it gives options
                                  > >>>>>> a, b and c, that you have access to options a, b and c. Not C if you only have supplement book B
                                  > >>>>>> loaded. PCGen has always about going with the option of being easier to use for the end user.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> From a Coding aspect, you are either requiring monkeys to make sets surpress errors for missing
                                  > >>>>>> creatures (Can't find Monster x, Monster Y, Monster Z), or we have to edit every other book to mod
                                  > >>>>>> class features with the additions. (Only add Monster X if Books y and z is loaded). I'll put this
                                  > >>>>>> out there, make the process of book creation more complicated than it already is and less people
                                  > >>>>>> will step up to make books. (And the maintenance headache this would cause is not fun either). No,
                                  > >>>>>> I'm not joking - Take Ultimate Magic as a nice example. I need to make it so your option for Class
                                  > >>>>>> X, isn't available unless you have both UM + Book C and D loaded. That is a nightmare from a coding
                                  > >>>>>> perspective. Can it be done? Yes, would I want to do it? No.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> We are already hitting this point where making the dependencies work is a complicated ball of yarn.
                                  > >>>>>> This consolidation to core is to make managing this easier, and making sure the correct options are
                                  > >>>>>> always available. (We've already done it with the Core Book for Monsters, this isn't changing any
                                  > >>>>>> major stances.)
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> I certainly hope that makes more sense. Now, if everyone says the above is wrong, I'm more than
                                  > >>>>>> happy to reverse my changes and force users to load every book. But I'm sure with the explanation
                                  > >>>>>> given, people will agree this is the best course of action.
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> Cheers,
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> On 12/3/2012 5:33 AM, Ragabash Moon wrote:
                                  > >>>>>>> I would have to agree with this completely, especially that some GMs don't allow
                                  > >>>>>>> certain books (my only policy is give me enough time to read it if it's new) and
                                  > >>>>>>> so having anything not core loaded along with core is a nightmare for any GM
                                  > >>>>>>> that doesn't allow that particular non-core book.
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> RagabashMoon@
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> ________________________________
                                  > >>>>>>> From: FerretDave <ferret.griffin@>
                                  > >>>>>>> To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 7:02:00 AM
                                  > >>>>>>> Subject: [pcgen] Re: Pathfinder Core and Familiars from other sources
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> Greetings,
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> My view is that if you haven't loaded the book, then you shouldn't get the
                                  > >>>>>>> options... If someone wants a familiar from Book B, then they need to load Book
                                  > >>>>>>> B.
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> If they've only (physically) got Book A (or GM only allows Book A), and they've
                                  > >>>>>>> only loaded Book A, then only stuff from Book A should appear in PCGen.
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> I do fully understand (and support/want/need) the reasons for underlying
                                  > >>>>>>> datasets defining stuff from Book B (and Book C/d/e) in the lst files for Book
                                  > >>>>>>> A. But they only become 'active' if you load an appropriate supplement set that
                                  > >>>>>>> actually defines them.
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> There is (perhaps) a justification here to have 'Familiars from Book B' created
                                  > >>>>>>> as a data set that could be loaded up, without having to load the entire Book
                                  > >>>>>>> B...
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> Cheers
                                  > >>>>>>> D
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barako@> wrote:
                                  > >>>>>>>> Hmm, I must have mis-understood when last we talked about it, because what I
                                  > >>>>>>>> said earlier is how I've always felt on the issue. I guess we need to figure
                                  > >>>>>>>> it out.
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> My POV is that when a user selects a book, the data from that book should be
                                  > >>>>>>>> loaded, and only that book. As a GM, when I load a dataset I expect that I
                                  > >>>>>>>> will be able to look up anything in the dataset in the book I loaded, which
                                  > >>>>>>>> I could not do if I don't own that splatbook that we've put into the core to
                                  > >>>>>>>> make our (PCGen developer) life easier.
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> Now, that being said, program wise I don't really care if the data is in
                                  > >>>>>>>> the core, but I believe we should have a method to turn off display
                                  > >>>>>>>> of/ability to use said items if the particular book it is from isn't
                                  > >>>>>>>> *specifically* loaded.
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> Will PRECAMPAIGN work in .lst files as well as .pcc? That would be the
                                  > >>>>>>>> simplest way. put that with the appropriate book as a PRE on anything we put
                                  > >>>>>>>> into the core that isn't actually from the core.
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> Barak
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> You're contradicting what we've talked about then. We have third and fourth
                                  > >>>>>>>> tier supplements that
                                  > >>>>>>>> add familiars, but only exist in other books. Since we have no way currently
                                  > >>>>>>>> to prevent files from
                                  > >>>>>>>> being loaded based upon other books, it was agreed we'd consolidate *all*
                                  > >>>>>>>> companions to avoid the
                                  > >>>>>>>> numerous errors we're already getting.
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> Related Lists
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  > >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  > >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  > >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> --
                                  > >>>>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  > >>>>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  > >>>>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  > >>>>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  > >>>>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>>>>>
                                  > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> Related Lists
                                  > >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  > >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  > >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  > >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>> --
                                  > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Related Lists
                                  > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  > >>> (for new official data source development)
                                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >> --
                                  > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Related Lists
                                  > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  > >
                                  > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  > > (for new official data source development)
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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