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Re: [pcgen] Re: regarding Class Features / Special Abilities listing within pcgen

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  • Andrew
    Hi, The display of both is controlled by Code - it parses DESC or BENEFIT and outputs one or the other to the DESC tag for the OS. I d personally like the
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 6, 2012
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      Hi,

      The display of both is controlled by Code - it parses DESC or BENEFIT and outputs one or the other
      to the DESC tag for the OS. I'd personally like the ability to use both. It wouldn't be hard to code
      the OS to display both or one or the other as it stands. But the obstacle is the CODE side.

      Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
      NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
      we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
      customer might not purchase the book.

      So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
      licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.

      And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
      mechanics. ;)

      On 9/6/2012 2:11 PM, tripleduck wrote:
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Wilson wrote:
      >> I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
      >> I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
      >> very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
      >> that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
      >> I was using. I Now see the better level of detail. Unfortunately
      >> because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change back and
      >> forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
      >> you change gamemode.
      > Hm. To me, this seems kind of silly. I mean, forcing the user to list only one or the other. Especially since some of the texty type things like feats can have more than just a description and a benefit (take Pathfinder's often having "normal" entries as well, for comparison.
      >
      > I've noticed that some of the people who've done the real work on Ultimate Combat's feats have added in a "[Normal]" tag in the BENEFIT line. I think this is great! They should all have this. Well, to keep with the data style, it would seem more fitting to be a NORMAL:desc tag.
      >
      > I personally want as much information as possible. I want to display the simple description, as well as the benefit, and any other information like comparatives to SOP. The more information I have on my character sheet, the less I have to thumb through a book in the middle of combat and halt the game while I find a rule.
      >
      > So, how difficult would it be, really, to provide the option to display both? I know that simple ideas often mean lots of work.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Related Lists
      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
      >
      >
      > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      >
      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      > (for new official data source development)
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      --
      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Susan Dittmar
      ... No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my personal files without violating the publisher s intention. I did buy the books
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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        Quoting Andrew (drew0500@...):
        > Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
        > NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
        > we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
        > customer might not purchase the book.

        No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my
        personal files without violating the publisher's intention. I did buy the
        books after all :-)

        > So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
        > licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.
        >
        > And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
        > mechanics. ;)

        I think I am adverse to adding a NORMAL tag. Here's my reason.

        OK, Pathfinder (and SRD) do have a NORMAL section sometimes in the
        feat/ability description. I agree that adding this same text to the
        character sheet is a good step to take. I do so in my personal files.

        But this division into "introduction", "benefit", and "normal" sections is
        just *one* possible style of writing up an ability. I think we should not
        trap ourselves into accomodating this one style to the fullest, and by that
        blocking any other styles.

        Thus I think we should use the tags like this:

        DESC for a very brief description what the ability is about

        BENEFIT for the detailed description, maybe split into several paragraphs
        (adding newline is an existing feature request).

        Thinking of it, I am even adverse to having PCGen concatenate those two
        texts. Once we remember that the tags names do not automatically correspond
        to the sections of pathfinder's feat descriptions, we can make sure that
        the BENEFIT text contains *all* the details the user might need (in this
        case, the introductory line, the crunch and the reminder what would happen
        without this ability). It might be a bit more work when entering the data
        (though that can be helped with a clever editor macro), but it makes for
        much better texts than what auto-concatenation can yield.

        Well, just my thoughts,

        Susan
      • Andrew
        Hi, ... And you may do that. ... New Line exists today. I also concur I don t intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I use a Newline and encapsulate it in
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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          Hi,



          On 9/7/2012 12:54 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
          > Quoting Andrew (drew0500@...):
          >> Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
          >> NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
          >> we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
          >> customer might not purchase the book.
          > No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my
          > personal files without violating the publisher's intention. I did buy the
          > books after all :-)

          And you may do that.


          >
          >> So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
          >> licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.
          >>
          >> And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
          >> mechanics. ;)
          > I think I am adverse to adding a NORMAL tag. Here's my reason.
          >
          > OK, Pathfinder (and SRD) do have a NORMAL section sometimes in the
          > feat/ability description. I agree that adding this same text to the
          > character sheet is a good step to take. I do so in my personal files.
          >
          > But this division into "introduction", "benefit", and "normal" sections is
          > just *one* possible style of writing up an ability. I think we should not
          > trap ourselves into accomodating this one style to the fullest, and by that
          > blocking any other styles.
          >
          > Thus I think we should use the tags like this:
          >
          > DESC for a very brief description what the ability is about
          >
          > BENEFIT for the detailed description, maybe split into several paragraphs
          > (adding newline is an existing feature request).

          New Line exists today.

          I also concur I don't intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I use a Newline and encapsulate it
          in Brackets.

          >
          > Thinking of it, I am even adverse to having PCGen concatenate those two
          > texts. Once we remember that the tags names do not automatically correspond
          > to the sections of pathfinder's feat descriptions, we can make sure that
          > the BENEFIT text contains *all* the details the user might need (in this
          > case, the introductory line, the crunch and the reminder what would happen
          > without this ability). It might be a bit more work when entering the data
          > (though that can be helped with a clever editor macro), but it makes for
          > much better texts than what auto-concatenation can yield.

          AS a data monkey, I find the Benefit and DESC are easily done. The Text blocks are already set up
          with the separation

          A Feat Name
          blurb which is the desc
          prexxx goes here
          Benefit: More text with crunch
          Normal: If applicable.

          What would be nice is the UI to show both, depending on the User Preference, you'll either See the
          DESC and BENEFIT text (sweet) or only the BENEFIT text.

          Cheers,

          >
          > Well, just my thoughts,
          >
          > Susan
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >
          >
          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tripleduck
          ... Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            > Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and
            > Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO NOT want all the information
            > displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products,
            > and we are an adjunct to making their customers happy.

            Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it all? Or is it limited data with the intent of directing the user to the book?

            > If we displayed everything, the feeling is the customer might not
            > purchase the book.

            I personally think this logic is flawed. :) I was going to get all into a heavy discussion about it, but realized half way through typing that it is the way it is and my not agreeing doesn't matter for two reason. 1) They aren't my companies, and 2) I usually stick to Pathfinder. :)

            > And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming
            > behind trying to add the extra crunch mechanics. ;)

            :) It makes me happy.

            > I also concur I don't intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I
            > use a Newline and encapsulate it in Brackets.

            Sorry, I didn't mean to imply PCGen should have a NORMAL tag. There are so many things about the inner-workings of PCGen I don't know, and trust that those of you who do are far more capable of determining what will work and not work. :)

            > What would be nice is the UI to show both, depending on the User
            > Preference, you'll either See the DESC and BENEFIT text (sweet) or
            > only the BENEFIT text.

            +1 :)
          • Andrew
            in line - ... The info in the set is only what the publisher allows. ... Long history. Paizo has bucked past trends, but we must continue to make our existing
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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              in line -

              On 9/7/2012 8:33 AM, tripleduck wrote:
              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >> Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and
              >> Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO NOT want all the information
              >> displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products,
              >> and we are an adjunct to making their customers happy.
              > Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it all? Or is it limited data with the intent of directing the user to the book?


              The info in the set is only what the publisher allows.

              >
              >> If we displayed everything, the feeling is the customer might not
              >> purchase the book.
              > I personally think this logic is flawed. :) I was going to get all into a heavy discussion about it, but realized half way through typing that it is the way it is and my not agreeing doesn't matter for two reason. 1) They aren't my companies, and 2) I usually stick to Pathfinder. :)

              Long history. Paizo has bucked past trends, but we must continue to make our existing publishers
              happy. Tis is what we as a community have stated we will adhere too.

              >
              > ------------------------------------ Related Lists PCGen's release site:
              > http://pcgen.sourceforge.net PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
              > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links PCGen's alpha build:
              > http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org PCGen
              > List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in creating
              > new homebrew or official list files) PCGen Experimental:
              > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official data source development)

              --
              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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