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Re: [pcgen] Re: regarding Class Features / Special Abilities listing within pcgen

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  • Andrew Wilson
    That s only true for Pathfinder. For every other data set it s DESC: Long description BENEFIT: optional short description This means for every mode other than
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
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      That's only true for Pathfinder. For every other data set it's

      DESC: Long description
      BENEFIT: optional short description

      This means for every mode other than pathfinder, everything has
      a detailed description and some things have an optional summary
      that you might choose if you want less detail and someone bothered.

      For pathfinder everything has a summary and some things might have
      an optional more detailed description that you can chose to output instead.

      This is a fundamental change in the way things are done and it requires
      a different setting of the option for which description to output to get
      the same result.

      Long time users who haven't spotted this are probably wondering why our
      Pathfinder data sets are crap. Why is there no detail? One of my friends
      asked me that question before I knew about this. The detail is there, you
      just have to know that the option needs changed before you can see it.

      As far as I know, Code Monkey Publishing added the BENEFIT tag so they
      could do stat blocks properly. You don't always want both things output.
      Sometimes the short pithy summary is all you have room for.

      andrew

      On 1 September 2012 20:23, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

      > Hi,
      >
      > The tags used for Ability and Feat are:
      > DESC: Short Description
      > BENEFIT: Matches the Benefit Section.
      >
      > Pathfinder - currently we use both. It'd be nice to output both, but the
      > code only takes one or the
      > other. Which is used is set in a UI Preference.
      >
      > On 9/1/2012 10:25 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
      > > There are two ways to add that data to an ability. The description tag
      > > and the benefit tag. I think that for sneak attack one of these has the
      > > amount of damage and the other doesn't.
      > >
      > > I think you're outputting the wrong one. This is easily done because
      > > the pathfinder game mode has been entered incorectly. The
      > > descriptionis supposed to be the detail and the benefiit should be the
      > > brief summary. In Pathfinder the Description has the mostly useless
      > > brief summary.
      > >
      > > I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
      > > I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
      > > very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
      > > that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
      > > I was using. I Now see the better level of detail.
      > >
      > > Unfortunately because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change
      > > back and forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
      > > you change gamemode.
      > >
      > > andrew
      > >
      > > On 31 August 2012 21:47, tripleduck <tulsagrown@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
      > >>> Doesn't exist. Though, I suppose we could easily add that feature.
      > >>> [...] If you'd like something similar, open a JIRA requesting it.
      > >> It seems like a nice thing to have. Especially since there are generally
      > >> aspects of the Class Features that improve with levels, like the sneak
      > >> attack bonus of the rogue. Having a place to check that would help not
      > >> only for seeing what abilities the character has, but for
      > troubleshooting
      > >> when things aren't working like they should.
      > >>
      > >>> It's low on my list of priorities, but not something that would
      > >>> take long to set up for me.
      > >>>
      > >>> Trobleshooting is just that, is the ability there. Though, if the
      > >>> ability is completely filled out, you should be able to look at the
      > >>> STANDARD sheet on the character Tab.
      > >> Using the sneak attack as an example, the character sheet doesn't
      > >> display the current sneak attack level/ability. It simply states that
      > the
      > >> character has the ability, as does the troubleshooting too. At least, I
      > >> don't see it.
      > >>
      > >> IMHO, this would be nice to have. So, I'll take your advice and add a
      > >> Jira :)
      > >>
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Related Lists
      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
      > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
      > >
      > >
      > > PCGen List File Help:
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      > >
      > > PCGen Experimental:
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      > > (for new official data source development)
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Related Lists
      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
      > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
      >
      >
      > PCGen List File Help:
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      >
      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      > (for new official data source development)
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew
      ... That s news to me. We only recently changed to adding longer descriptions for the RSRD since it s open content. For all other supplements, the DESC is only
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
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        On 9/1/2012 3:37 PM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
        > That's only true for Pathfinder. For every other data set it's
        >
        > DESC: Long description
        > BENEFIT: optional short description

        That's news to me. We only recently changed to adding longer descriptions for the RSRD since it's
        open content. For all other supplements, the DESC is only the short one-liners for Spells, Feats,
        Abilities. (I should know, I was helping in that effort).

        I'd have to double check the Pathfinder sets and see what we've done, but I believe we're using the
        DESC for the long descriptions. Benefit tags aren't used often in our sets.

        >
        > This means for every mode other than pathfinder, everything has
        > a detailed description and some things have an optional summary
        > that you might choose if you want less detail and someone bothered.
        >
        > For pathfinder everything has a summary and some things might have
        > an optional more detailed description that you can chose to output instead.
        >
        > This is a fundamental change in the way things are done and it requires
        > a different setting of the option for which description to output to get
        > the same result.
        >
        > Long time users who haven't spotted this are probably wondering why our
        > Pathfinder data sets are crap. Why is there no detail? One of my friends
        > asked me that question before I knew about this. The detail is there, you
        > just have to know that the option needs changed before you can see it.
        >
        > As far as I know, Code Monkey Publishing added the BENEFIT tag so they
        > could do stat blocks properly. You don't always want both things output.
        > Sometimes the short pithy summary is all you have room for.

        I'd like to update the code and the OS block to display the feats properly. So both DESC and BENEFIT
        can be displayed. But neither will happen till 6.2 at the earliest.

        >
        > andrew
        >
        > On 1 September 2012 20:23, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> The tags used for Ability and Feat are:
        >> DESC: Short Description
        >> BENEFIT: Matches the Benefit Section.
        >>
        >> Pathfinder - currently we use both. It'd be nice to output both, but the
        >> code only takes one or the
        >> other. Which is used is set in a UI Preference.
        >>
        >> On 9/1/2012 10:25 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
        >>> There are two ways to add that data to an ability. The description tag
        >>> and the benefit tag. I think that for sneak attack one of these has the
        >>> amount of damage and the other doesn't.
        >>>
        >>> I think you're outputting the wrong one. This is easily done because
        >>> the pathfinder game mode has been entered incorectly. The
        >>> descriptionis supposed to be the detail and the benefiit should be the
        >>> brief summary. In Pathfinder the Description has the mostly useless
        >>> brief summary.
        >>>
        >>> I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
        >>> I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
        >>> very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
        >>> that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
        >>> I was using. I Now see the better level of detail.
        >>>
        >>> Unfortunately because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change
        >>> back and forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
        >>> you change gamemode.
        >>>
        >>> andrew
        >>>
        >>> On 31 August 2012 21:47, tripleduck <tulsagrown@...> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
        >>>>> Doesn't exist. Though, I suppose we could easily add that feature.
        >>>>> [...] If you'd like something similar, open a JIRA requesting it.
        >>>> It seems like a nice thing to have. Especially since there are generally
        >>>> aspects of the Class Features that improve with levels, like the sneak
        >>>> attack bonus of the rogue. Having a place to check that would help not
        >>>> only for seeing what abilities the character has, but for
        >> troubleshooting
        >>>> when things aren't working like they should.
        >>>>
        >>>>> It's low on my list of priorities, but not something that would
        >>>>> take long to set up for me.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Trobleshooting is just that, is the ability there. Though, if the
        >>>>> ability is completely filled out, you should be able to look at the
        >>>>> STANDARD sheet on the character Tab.
        >>>> Using the sneak attack as an example, the character sheet doesn't
        >>>> display the current sneak attack level/ability. It simply states that
        >> the
        >>>> character has the ability, as does the troubleshooting too. At least, I
        >>>> don't see it.
        >>>>
        >>>> IMHO, this would be nice to have. So, I'll take your advice and add a
        >>>> Jira :)
        >>>>
        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>> Related Lists
        >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
        >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> PCGen List File Help:
        >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >>>
        >>> PCGen Experimental:
        >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        >>> (for new official data source development)
        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >> --
        >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Related Lists
        >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
        >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >>
        >>
        >> PCGen List File Help:
        >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >>
        >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        >> (for new official data source development)
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Related Lists
        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >
        >
        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >
        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > (for new official data source development)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew Wilson
        Oops, you re right. I have it back to front. But Pathfinder still does it different than the other data sets. The BENEFIT tag was added so that Code Monkey
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Oops, you're right. I have it back to front. But Pathfinder still does it
          different than the other data sets. The BENEFIT tag was added so
          that Code Monkey Publishing could add more detail because they
          were licensed to do that. So in normal sets the DESC is the shorter
          description and the BENEFIT is longer version, with Pathfinder the
          BENEFIT tag is the short one.

          This illustrates why you shouldn't contradict senior data monkeys.
          They likely know more about the data than you do. /blush

          andrew

          On 1 September 2012 23:44, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On 9/1/2012 3:37 PM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
          > > That's only true for Pathfinder. For every other data set it's
          > >
          > > DESC: Long description
          > > BENEFIT: optional short description
          >
          > That's news to me. We only recently changed to adding longer descriptions
          > for the RSRD since it's
          > open content. For all other supplements, the DESC is only the short
          > one-liners for Spells, Feats,
          > Abilities. (I should know, I was helping in that effort).
          >
          > I'd have to double check the Pathfinder sets and see what we've done, but
          > I believe we're using the
          > DESC for the long descriptions. Benefit tags aren't used often in our sets.
          >
          > >
          > > This means for every mode other than pathfinder, everything has
          > > a detailed description and some things have an optional summary
          > > that you might choose if you want less detail and someone bothered.
          > >
          > > For pathfinder everything has a summary and some things might have
          > > an optional more detailed description that you can chose to output
          > instead.
          > >
          > > This is a fundamental change in the way things are done and it requires
          > > a different setting of the option for which description to output to get
          > > the same result.
          > >
          > > Long time users who haven't spotted this are probably wondering why our
          > > Pathfinder data sets are crap. Why is there no detail? One of my friends
          > > asked me that question before I knew about this. The detail is there,
          > you
          > > just have to know that the option needs changed before you can see it.
          > >
          > > As far as I know, Code Monkey Publishing added the BENEFIT tag so they
          > > could do stat blocks properly. You don't always want both things output.
          > > Sometimes the short pithy summary is all you have room for.
          >
          > I'd like to update the code and the OS block to display the feats
          > properly. So both DESC and BENEFIT
          > can be displayed. But neither will happen till 6.2 at the earliest.
          >
          > >
          > > andrew
          > >
          > > On 1 September 2012 20:23, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >> Hi,
          > >>
          > >> The tags used for Ability and Feat are:
          > >> DESC: Short Description
          > >> BENEFIT: Matches the Benefit Section.
          > >>
          > >> Pathfinder - currently we use both. It'd be nice to output both, but the
          > >> code only takes one or the
          > >> other. Which is used is set in a UI Preference.
          > >>
          > >> On 9/1/2012 10:25 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
          > >>> There are two ways to add that data to an ability. The description tag
          > >>> and the benefit tag. I think that for sneak attack one of these has
          > the
          > >>> amount of damage and the other doesn't.
          > >>>
          > >>> I think you're outputting the wrong one. This is easily done because
          > >>> the pathfinder game mode has been entered incorectly. The
          > >>> descriptionis supposed to be the detail and the benefiit should be the
          > >>> brief summary. In Pathfinder the Description has the mostly useless
          > >>> brief summary.
          > >>>
          > >>> I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
          > >>> I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
          > >>> very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
          > >>> that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
          > >>> I was using. I Now see the better level of detail.
          > >>>
          > >>> Unfortunately because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change
          > >>> back and forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
          > >>> you change gamemode.
          > >>>
          > >>> andrew
          > >>>
          > >>> On 31 August 2012 21:47, tripleduck <tulsagrown@...> wrote:
          > >>>
          > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
          > >>>>> Doesn't exist. Though, I suppose we could easily add that feature.
          > >>>>> [...] If you'd like something similar, open a JIRA requesting it.
          > >>>> It seems like a nice thing to have. Especially since there are
          > generally
          > >>>> aspects of the Class Features that improve with levels, like the sneak
          > >>>> attack bonus of the rogue. Having a place to check that would help
          > not
          > >>>> only for seeing what abilities the character has, but for
          > >> troubleshooting
          > >>>> when things aren't working like they should.
          > >>>>
          > >>>>> It's low on my list of priorities, but not something that would
          > >>>>> take long to set up for me.
          > >>>>>
          > >>>>> Trobleshooting is just that, is the ability there. Though, if the
          > >>>>> ability is completely filled out, you should be able to look at the
          > >>>>> STANDARD sheet on the character Tab.
          > >>>> Using the sneak attack as an example, the character sheet doesn't
          > >>>> display the current sneak attack level/ability. It simply states that
          > >> the
          > >>>> character has the ability, as does the troubleshooting too. At
          > least, I
          > >>>> don't see it.
          > >>>>
          > >>>> IMHO, this would be nice to have. So, I'll take your advice and add
          > a
          > >>>> Jira :)
          > >>>>
          > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> ------------------------------------
          > >>>
          > >>> Related Lists
          > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
          > >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> PCGen List File Help:
          > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          > >>>
          > >>> PCGen Experimental:
          > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > >>> (for new official data source development)
          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >> --
          > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> Related Lists
          > >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
          > >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> PCGen List File Help:
          > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          > >>
          > >> PCGen Experimental:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > >> (for new official data source development)
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Related Lists
          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
          > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          > >
          > >
          > > PCGen List File Help:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          > >
          > > PCGen Experimental:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > > (for new official data source development)
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
          > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >
          >
          > PCGen List File Help:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • FerretDave
          Greetings, Yes, BENEFIT is supposed to be the more detailed (generally closed content) information, with more info than the short DESC . If PF has this
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 3, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Greetings,

            Yes, BENEFIT is supposed to be the more detailed (generally closed content) information, with more info than the short 'DESC'.

            If PF has this backwards, then it may be a good time to correct that before 6 is released... should be a (fairly) simple global search/replace on DESC: and BENEFIT: though, and saves confusion and swapping of settings.

            Cheers
            D

            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Wilson <andrew@...> wrote:
            >
            > Oops, you're right. I have it back to front. But Pathfinder still does it
            > different than the other data sets. The BENEFIT tag was added so
            > that Code Monkey Publishing could add more detail because they
            > were licensed to do that. So in normal sets the DESC is the shorter
            > description and the BENEFIT is longer version, with Pathfinder the
            > BENEFIT tag is the short one.
            >
            > This illustrates why you shouldn't contradict senior data monkeys.
            > They likely know more about the data than you do. /blush
            >
            > andrew
            >
            > On 1 September 2012 23:44, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On 9/1/2012 3:37 PM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
            > > > That's only true for Pathfinder. For every other data set it's
            > > >
            > > > DESC: Long description
            > > > BENEFIT: optional short description
            > >
            > > That's news to me. We only recently changed to adding longer descriptions
            > > for the RSRD since it's
            > > open content. For all other supplements, the DESC is only the short
            > > one-liners for Spells, Feats,
            > > Abilities. (I should know, I was helping in that effort).
            > >
            > > I'd have to double check the Pathfinder sets and see what we've done, but
            > > I believe we're using the
            > > DESC for the long descriptions. Benefit tags aren't used often in our sets.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > This means for every mode other than pathfinder, everything has
            > > > a detailed description and some things have an optional summary
            > > > that you might choose if you want less detail and someone bothered.
            > > >
            > > > For pathfinder everything has a summary and some things might have
            > > > an optional more detailed description that you can chose to output
            > > instead.
            > > >
            > > > This is a fundamental change in the way things are done and it requires
            > > > a different setting of the option for which description to output to get
            > > > the same result.
            > > >
            > > > Long time users who haven't spotted this are probably wondering why our
            > > > Pathfinder data sets are crap. Why is there no detail? One of my friends
            > > > asked me that question before I knew about this. The detail is there,
            > > you
            > > > just have to know that the option needs changed before you can see it.
            > > >
            > > > As far as I know, Code Monkey Publishing added the BENEFIT tag so they
            > > > could do stat blocks properly. You don't always want both things output.
            > > > Sometimes the short pithy summary is all you have room for.
            > >
            > > I'd like to update the code and the OS block to display the feats
            > > properly. So both DESC and BENEFIT
            > > can be displayed. But neither will happen till 6.2 at the earliest.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > andrew
            > > >
            > > > On 1 September 2012 20:23, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >> Hi,
            > > >>
            > > >> The tags used for Ability and Feat are:
            > > >> DESC: Short Description
            > > >> BENEFIT: Matches the Benefit Section.
            > > >>
            > > >> Pathfinder - currently we use both. It'd be nice to output both, but the
            > > >> code only takes one or the
            > > >> other. Which is used is set in a UI Preference.
            > > >>
            > > >> On 9/1/2012 10:25 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
            > > >>> There are two ways to add that data to an ability. The description tag
            > > >>> and the benefit tag. I think that for sneak attack one of these has
            > > the
            > > >>> amount of damage and the other doesn't.
            > > >>>
            > > >>> I think you're outputting the wrong one. This is easily done because
            > > >>> the pathfinder game mode has been entered incorectly. The
            > > >>> descriptionis supposed to be the detail and the benefiit should be the
            > > >>> brief summary. In Pathfinder the Description has the mostly useless
            > > >>> brief summary.
            > > >>>
            > > >>> I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
            > > >>> I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
            > > >>> very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
            > > >>> that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
            > > >>> I was using. I Now see the better level of detail.
            > > >>>
            > > >>> Unfortunately because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change
            > > >>> back and forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
            > > >>> you change gamemode.
            > > >>>
            > > >>> andrew
            > > >>>
            > > >>> On 31 August 2012 21:47, tripleduck <tulsagrown@...> wrote:
            > > >>>
            > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
            > > >>>>> Doesn't exist. Though, I suppose we could easily add that feature.
            > > >>>>> [...] If you'd like something similar, open a JIRA requesting it.
            > > >>>> It seems like a nice thing to have. Especially since there are
            > > generally
            > > >>>> aspects of the Class Features that improve with levels, like the sneak
            > > >>>> attack bonus of the rogue. Having a place to check that would help
            > > not
            > > >>>> only for seeing what abilities the character has, but for
            > > >> troubleshooting
            > > >>>> when things aren't working like they should.
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>> It's low on my list of priorities, but not something that would
            > > >>>>> take long to set up for me.
            > > >>>>>
            > > >>>>> Trobleshooting is just that, is the ability there. Though, if the
            > > >>>>> ability is completely filled out, you should be able to look at the
            > > >>>>> STANDARD sheet on the character Tab.
            > > >>>> Using the sneak attack as an example, the character sheet doesn't
            > > >>>> display the current sneak attack level/ability. It simply states that
            > > >> the
            > > >>>> character has the ability, as does the troubleshooting too. At
            > > least, I
            > > >>>> don't see it.
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>> IMHO, this would be nice to have. So, I'll take your advice and add
            > > a
            > > >>>> Jira :)
            > > >>>>
            > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>> ------------------------------------
            > > >>>
            > > >>> Related Lists
            > > >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > > >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>> PCGen List File Help:
            > > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > > >>>
            > > >>> PCGen Experimental:
            > > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > >>> (for new official data source development)
            > > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >> --
            > > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            > > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            > > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            > > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            > > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >> ------------------------------------
            > > >>
            > > >> Related Lists
            > > >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > > >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >> PCGen List File Help:
            > > >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > > >>
            > > >> PCGen Experimental:
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > >> (for new official data source development)
            > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > Related Lists
            > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > PCGen List File Help:
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > > >
            > > > PCGen Experimental:
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > > (for new official data source development)
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Related Lists
            > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
            > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > >
            > >
            > > PCGen List File Help:
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > >
            > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > (for new official data source development)
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • tripleduck
            ... This is how Paizo formats their feats and sech. (non-labeled) desc being a quick and short description, and BENEFIT being the meat of the item.
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 6, 2012
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              > Yes, BENEFIT is supposed to be the more detailed (generally closed
              > content) information, with more info than the short 'DESC'.
              > If PF has this backwards...

              This is how Paizo formats their feats and sech. (non-labeled) desc being a quick and short description, and BENEFIT being the meat of the item.
            • tripleduck
              ... Hm. To me, this seems kind of silly. I mean, forcing the user to list only one or the other. Especially since some of the texty type things like feats can
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 6, 2012
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Wilson wrote:
                > I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
                > I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
                > very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
                > that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
                > I was using. I Now see the better level of detail. Unfortunately
                > because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change back and
                > forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
                > you change gamemode.

                Hm. To me, this seems kind of silly. I mean, forcing the user to list only one or the other. Especially since some of the texty type things like feats can have more than just a description and a benefit (take Pathfinder's often having "normal" entries as well, for comparison.

                I've noticed that some of the people who've done the real work on Ultimate Combat's feats have added in a "[Normal]" tag in the BENEFIT line. I think this is great! They should all have this. Well, to keep with the data style, it would seem more fitting to be a NORMAL:desc tag.

                I personally want as much information as possible. I want to display the simple description, as well as the benefit, and any other information like comparatives to SOP. The more information I have on my character sheet, the less I have to thumb through a book in the middle of combat and halt the game while I find a rule.

                So, how difficult would it be, really, to provide the option to display both? I know that simple ideas often mean lots of work.
              • Andrew
                Hi, The display of both is controlled by Code - it parses DESC or BENEFIT and outputs one or the other to the DESC tag for the OS. I d personally like the
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 6, 2012
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                  Hi,

                  The display of both is controlled by Code - it parses DESC or BENEFIT and outputs one or the other
                  to the DESC tag for the OS. I'd personally like the ability to use both. It wouldn't be hard to code
                  the OS to display both or one or the other as it stands. But the obstacle is the CODE side.

                  Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
                  NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
                  we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
                  customer might not purchase the book.

                  So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
                  licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.

                  And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
                  mechanics. ;)

                  On 9/6/2012 2:11 PM, tripleduck wrote:
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Wilson wrote:
                  >> I complained bitterly about the lack of information showing up.
                  >> I assumed that the detail hadn't been entered, even though we have
                  >> very generous permission from Paizo. Then someone pointed out
                  >> that our pathfinder set is doing it "wrong" and I changed the option
                  >> I was using. I Now see the better level of detail. Unfortunately
                  >> because pathfinder is "wrong", if you want to change back and
                  >> forth, you'll have to remember to change this setting when
                  >> you change gamemode.
                  > Hm. To me, this seems kind of silly. I mean, forcing the user to list only one or the other. Especially since some of the texty type things like feats can have more than just a description and a benefit (take Pathfinder's often having "normal" entries as well, for comparison.
                  >
                  > I've noticed that some of the people who've done the real work on Ultimate Combat's feats have added in a "[Normal]" tag in the BENEFIT line. I think this is great! They should all have this. Well, to keep with the data style, it would seem more fitting to be a NORMAL:desc tag.
                  >
                  > I personally want as much information as possible. I want to display the simple description, as well as the benefit, and any other information like comparatives to SOP. The more information I have on my character sheet, the less I have to thumb through a book in the middle of combat and halt the game while I find a rule.
                  >
                  > So, how difficult would it be, really, to provide the option to display both? I know that simple ideas often mean lots of work.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Related Lists
                  > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >
                  >
                  > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >
                  > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > (for new official data source development)
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Susan Dittmar
                  ... No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my personal files without violating the publisher s intention. I did buy the books
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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                    Quoting Andrew (drew0500@...):
                    > Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
                    > NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
                    > we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
                    > customer might not purchase the book.

                    No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my
                    personal files without violating the publisher's intention. I did buy the
                    books after all :-)

                    > So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
                    > licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.
                    >
                    > And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
                    > mechanics. ;)

                    I think I am adverse to adding a NORMAL tag. Here's my reason.

                    OK, Pathfinder (and SRD) do have a NORMAL section sometimes in the
                    feat/ability description. I agree that adding this same text to the
                    character sheet is a good step to take. I do so in my personal files.

                    But this division into "introduction", "benefit", and "normal" sections is
                    just *one* possible style of writing up an ability. I think we should not
                    trap ourselves into accomodating this one style to the fullest, and by that
                    blocking any other styles.

                    Thus I think we should use the tags like this:

                    DESC for a very brief description what the ability is about

                    BENEFIT for the detailed description, maybe split into several paragraphs
                    (adding newline is an existing feature request).

                    Thinking of it, I am even adverse to having PCGen concatenate those two
                    texts. Once we remember that the tags names do not automatically correspond
                    to the sections of pathfinder's feat descriptions, we can make sure that
                    the BENEFIT text contains *all* the details the user might need (in this
                    case, the introductory line, the crunch and the reminder what would happen
                    without this ability). It might be a bit more work when entering the data
                    (though that can be helped with a clever editor macro), but it makes for
                    much better texts than what auto-concatenation can yield.

                    Well, just my thoughts,

                    Susan
                  • Andrew
                    Hi, ... And you may do that. ... New Line exists today. I also concur I don t intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I use a Newline and encapsulate it in
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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                      Hi,



                      On 9/7/2012 12:54 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
                      > Quoting Andrew (drew0500@...):
                      >> Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO
                      >> NOT want all the information displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products, and
                      >> we are an adjunct to making their customers happy. If we displayed everything, the feeling is the
                      >> customer might not purchase the book.
                      > No problem with me. If the mechanics is in, I can add those texts in my
                      > personal files without violating the publisher's intention. I did buy the
                      > books after all :-)

                      And you may do that.


                      >
                      >> So, current code practices supported that stated goal. I think BENEFIT was brought into play for
                      >> licensed set by CMP. Anyways, that's a short history.
                      >>
                      >> And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming behind trying to add the extra crunch
                      >> mechanics. ;)
                      > I think I am adverse to adding a NORMAL tag. Here's my reason.
                      >
                      > OK, Pathfinder (and SRD) do have a NORMAL section sometimes in the
                      > feat/ability description. I agree that adding this same text to the
                      > character sheet is a good step to take. I do so in my personal files.
                      >
                      > But this division into "introduction", "benefit", and "normal" sections is
                      > just *one* possible style of writing up an ability. I think we should not
                      > trap ourselves into accomodating this one style to the fullest, and by that
                      > blocking any other styles.
                      >
                      > Thus I think we should use the tags like this:
                      >
                      > DESC for a very brief description what the ability is about
                      >
                      > BENEFIT for the detailed description, maybe split into several paragraphs
                      > (adding newline is an existing feature request).

                      New Line exists today.

                      I also concur I don't intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I use a Newline and encapsulate it
                      in Brackets.

                      >
                      > Thinking of it, I am even adverse to having PCGen concatenate those two
                      > texts. Once we remember that the tags names do not automatically correspond
                      > to the sections of pathfinder's feat descriptions, we can make sure that
                      > the BENEFIT text contains *all* the details the user might need (in this
                      > case, the introductory line, the crunch and the reminder what would happen
                      > without this ability). It might be a bit more work when entering the data
                      > (though that can be helped with a clever editor macro), but it makes for
                      > much better texts than what auto-concatenation can yield.

                      AS a data monkey, I find the Benefit and DESC are easily done. The Text blocks are already set up
                      with the separation

                      A Feat Name
                      blurb which is the desc
                      prexxx goes here
                      Benefit: More text with crunch
                      Normal: If applicable.

                      What would be nice is the UI to show both, depending on the User Preference, you'll either See the
                      DESC and BENEFIT text (sweet) or only the BENEFIT text.

                      Cheers,

                      >
                      > Well, just my thoughts,
                      >
                      > Susan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Related Lists
                      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
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                      >
                      >
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                      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >
                      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > (for new official data source development)
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tripleduck
                      ... Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                        > Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and
                        > Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO NOT want all the information
                        > displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products,
                        > and we are an adjunct to making their customers happy.

                        Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it all? Or is it limited data with the intent of directing the user to the book?

                        > If we displayed everything, the feeling is the customer might not
                        > purchase the book.

                        I personally think this logic is flawed. :) I was going to get all into a heavy discussion about it, but realized half way through typing that it is the way it is and my not agreeing doesn't matter for two reason. 1) They aren't my companies, and 2) I usually stick to Pathfinder. :)

                        > And, I'm the one that did the [Normal] - It aids those coming
                        > behind trying to add the extra crunch mechanics. ;)

                        :) It makes me happy.

                        > I also concur I don't intend to split out a new tag for Normal. I
                        > use a Newline and encapsulate it in Brackets.

                        Sorry, I didn't mean to imply PCGen should have a NORMAL tag. There are so many things about the inner-workings of PCGen I don't know, and trust that those of you who do are far more capable of determining what will work and not work. :)

                        > What would be nice is the UI to show both, depending on the User
                        > Preference, you'll either See the DESC and BENEFIT text (sweet) or
                        > only the BENEFIT text.

                        +1 :)
                      • Andrew
                        in line - ... The info in the set is only what the publisher allows. ... Long history. Paizo has bucked past trends, but we must continue to make our existing
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 7, 2012
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                          in line -

                          On 9/7/2012 8:33 AM, tripleduck wrote:
                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >> Though, you need to remember, besides the RSRD, SRD, MSRD and
                          >> Paizo, the rest of the publishers DO NOT want all the information
                          >> displayed. After all, they want to be able to sell their products,
                          >> and we are an adjunct to making their customers happy.
                          > Understood. So, for the publishers that want limited information displayed, all the data is there in the datasets, but PCGen is just not allowed to show it all? Or is it limited data with the intent of directing the user to the book?


                          The info in the set is only what the publisher allows.

                          >
                          >> If we displayed everything, the feeling is the customer might not
                          >> purchase the book.
                          > I personally think this logic is flawed. :) I was going to get all into a heavy discussion about it, but realized half way through typing that it is the way it is and my not agreeing doesn't matter for two reason. 1) They aren't my companies, and 2) I usually stick to Pathfinder. :)

                          Long history. Paizo has bucked past trends, but we must continue to make our existing publishers
                          happy. Tis is what we as a community have stated we will adhere too.

                          >
                          > ------------------------------------ Related Lists PCGen's release site:
                          > http://pcgen.sourceforge.net PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                          > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links PCGen's alpha build:
                          > http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org PCGen
                          > List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in creating
                          > new homebrew or official list files) PCGen Experimental:
                          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official data source development)

                          --
                          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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