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Re: [pcgen] Darkwood Buckler

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  • Susan Dittmar
    ... Stop! Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this case for sure, I
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 7 1:24 AM
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      Quoting Doug Limmer (adventure@...):
      > A darkwood buckler has a 0 Armor Check penalty, so shouldn't penalize
      > skills. (It also might technically be a light shield, but that's a
      > completely different matter.)

      Stop! Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
      proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this case for
      sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
      pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
      shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.

      Hope that helps,

      Susan
    • Doug Limmer
      ... Hammer Time! ... Do you have a source for that? I ve never heard of such a rule. DS/DL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 7 2:48 AM
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        On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
        >
        > Stop!
        >
        Hammer Time!
        >
        > Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
        > proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
        > case for
        > sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
        > pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
        > shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
        >
        Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.

        DS/DL



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David R. Bender
        I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html) Armor Proficiency,
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 7 3:42 AM
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          I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the
          PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html)


          Armor Proficiency, Light (Combat)

          You are skilled at wearing light armor.

          *Benefit:* When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient,
          the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity
          <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#_dexterity>- and
          Strength-based skill checks.

          *Normal:* A character who is wearing armor with which he is not
          proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
          skill checks that involve moving.

          *Special:* All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards
          automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need
          not select it.



          -- david
          Papa.DRB

          My better half and me (jpg)
          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

          On 3/7/2012 5:48 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
          > On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
          >> Stop!
          >>
          > Hammer Time!
          >> Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
          >> proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
          >> case for
          >> sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
          >> pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
          >> shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
          >>
          > Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.
          >
          > DS/DL
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >
          >
          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
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          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        • Eric C Smith
          Hi Folks! I ve been following this thread and am leaning in pfsgamer s and Doug s direction on this one. Given David s included info below, and adding the
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 7 4:41 AM
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            Hi Folks!

            I've been following this thread and am leaning in pfsgamer's and Doug's direction on this one.

            Given David's included info below, and adding the effect on the Armor Check Penalty that Darkwood has on the buckler it looks to me like the ACP for a Darkwood Buckler is indeed zero. (Relevant part of the Darkwood description included below.)

            "Darkwood: . . . The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type."

            A Buckler as a ACP of -1 and when you apply the Darkwood effect, and realizing that you can't reduce the penalty below zero, a Darkwood Buckler has an ACP of zero. It is clear that the ACP DOES effect the STR and DEX based skill checks whether the character is proficient with the buckler or not, but I can't find a reference that states that the bonuses granted by special materials is not applied to the ACP when making such checks. The references siply state that the ACP id modified, in the case of the Darkwood material, and that the ACP is applied to the skill checks.

            As for Susan's assertion that non-proficiency in armor or shield leads to an additional ACP equal to the armor bonus, I can't find any reference to that. Susan, can you point me to the reference?

            Maredudd

            On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:42 AM, David R. Bender wrote:

            > I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the
            > PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html)
            >
            > Armor Proficiency, Light (Combat)
            >
            > You are skilled at wearing light armor.
            >
            > *Benefit:* When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient,
            > the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity
            > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#_dexterity>- and
            > Strength-based skill checks.
            >
            > *Normal:* A character who is wearing armor with which he is not
            > proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
            > skill checks that involve moving.
            >
            > *Special:* All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards
            > automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need
            > not select it.
            >
            > -- david
            > Papa.DRB
            >
            > My better half and me (jpg)
            > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
            >
            > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
            > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
            >
            > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
            > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
            >
            > On 3/7/2012 5:48 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
            > > On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
            > >> Stop!
            > >>
            > > Hammer Time!
            > >> Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
            > >> proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
            > >> case for
            > >> sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
            > >> pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
            > >> shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
            > >>
            > > Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.
            > >
            > > DS/DL
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Related Lists
            > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            > >
            > >
            > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > >
            > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > (for new official data source development)
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Susan Dittmar
            ... I can t. My memory has failed me. To my knowledge, there is no such additional armor check penalty. Teaches me to check with the sources *before* I post.
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 7 6:15 AM
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              Quoting Eric C Smith (maredudd@...):
              > As for Susan's assertion that non-proficiency in armor or shield leads to
              > an additional ACP equal to the armor bonus, I can't find any reference to
              > that. Susan, can you point me to the reference?

              I can't. My memory has failed me. To my knowledge, there is no such
              additional armor check penalty. Teaches me to check with the sources
              *before* I post.

              Susan
            • pfsgamer
              PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat. The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook. Thanks for looking into this. The only
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7 6:29 AM
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                PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.

                Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.

                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:

                > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                >
                > DS/DL
                >
                > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                > >
                > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                > > >
                > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                > > > carrying it."
                > >
                > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                > > for using it non-proficiently.
                > >
                > > Stefan.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Doug Limmer
                I tried this out. First, a couple of caveats: 1. I m assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-) 2. I m further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7 7:13 AM
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                  I tried this out.

                  First, a couple of caveats:
                  1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                  2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                  may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                  3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                  available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                  4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                  wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                  with.

                  The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                  Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.

                  I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                  14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                  unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                  to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                  equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                  With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                  and attack with the bow.

                  Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                  the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                  I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                  buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                  as both?

                  [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                  for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                  give that penalty for bows and crossbows.

                  DS/DL

                  On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                  >
                  > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                  > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                  >
                  > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                  > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                  > did not interfere with the bow.
                  >
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                  > Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                  > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                  > >
                  > > DS/DL
                  > >
                  > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                  > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                  > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                  > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                  > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                  > Why is
                  > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                  > > > > carrying it."
                  > > >
                  > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                  > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                  > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                  > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                  > > >
                  > > > Stefan.
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • UnclePete
                  I ve been following this with some interest. As DM, I have had to remind some players to reduce their AC if using a weapon or casting a spell while wearing a
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7 9:35 AM
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                    I've been following this with some interest. As DM, I have had to remind
                    some players to reduce their AC if using a weapon or casting a spell
                    while wearing a buckler. From PCGen's point of view, equipping both a
                    weapon and a buckler at the same time is acceptable - the adjustment to
                    AC is a player's responsibility. However, allowing shield bash with a
                    buckler is wrong and needs fixing.

                    Pathfinder Core Rulebook, 5th printing, p150:
                    "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the
                    buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with
                    somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC
                    bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler."

                    This simple statement, however, has produced some robust discussion
                    about what constitutes weapon "use" and what is required to regain the
                    buckler AC. If anyone is interested in our house rules resulting from
                    these discussions, let me know and I'll be happy to share.

                    Pete



                    On 03/08/2012 02:13 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
                    >
                    > I tried this out.
                    >
                    > First, a couple of caveats:
                    > 1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                    > 2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                    > may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                    > 3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                    > available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                    > 4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                    > wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                    > with.
                    >
                    > The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                    > Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.
                    >
                    > I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                    > 14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                    > unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                    > to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                    > equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                    > With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                    > and attack with the bow.
                    >
                    > Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                    > the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                    > I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                    > buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                    > as both?
                    >
                    > [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                    > for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                    > give that penalty for bows and crossbows.
                    >
                    > DS/DL
                    >
                    > On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                    > >
                    > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                    > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                    > > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                    > > did not interfere with the bow.
                    > >
                    > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                    > > Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                    > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                    > > >
                    > > > DS/DL
                    > > >
                    > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                    > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                    > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                    > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a
                    > rogue
                    > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                    > > Why is
                    > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                    > while
                    > > > > > carrying it."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow,
                    > which
                    > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                    > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                    > the cost
                    > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Stefan.
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • pfsgamer
                    Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder. Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills. I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable. Skills
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 7 10:58 AM
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                      Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.

                      Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                      I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                      Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)

                      Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.

                      She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)


                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I tried this out.
                      >
                      > First, a couple of caveats:
                      > 1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                      > 2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                      > may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                      > 3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                      > available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                      > 4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                      > wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                      > with.
                      >
                      > The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                      > Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.
                      >
                      > I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                      > 14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                      > unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                      > to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                      > equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                      > With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                      > and attack with the bow.
                      >
                      > Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                      > the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                      > I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                      > buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                      > as both?
                      >
                      > [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                      > for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                      > give that penalty for bows and crossbows.
                      >
                      > DS/DL
                      >
                      > On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                      > >
                      > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                      > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                      > > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                      > > did not interfere with the bow.
                      > >
                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                      > > Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                      > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                      > > >
                      > > > DS/DL
                      > > >
                      > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                      > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                      > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                      > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                      > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                      > > Why is
                      > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                      > > > > > carrying it."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                      > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                      > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                      > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Stefan.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Eric C Smith
                      Hi pfsgamer, What are your referring to when you say Guide ? Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . . Maredudd
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 7 11:21 AM
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                        Hi pfsgamer,

                        What are your referring to when you say "Guide"?

                        Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . .

                        Maredudd

                        On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:58 PM, pfsgamer wrote:

                        > Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.
                        >
                        > Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                        > I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                        > Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)
                        >
                        > Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.
                        >
                        > She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)
                      • pfsgamer
                        Guide to Organized Play 4.0 -- Required for PFS! :-)
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 7 11:46 AM
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                          Guide to Organized Play 4.0 -- Required for PFS! :-)

                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eric C Smith <maredudd@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi pfsgamer,
                          >
                          > What are your referring to when you say "Guide"?
                          >
                          > Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . .
                          >
                          > Maredudd
                          >
                          > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:58 PM, pfsgamer wrote:
                          >
                          > > Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.
                          > >
                          > > Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                          > > I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                          > > Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)
                          > >
                          > > Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.
                          > >
                          > > She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)
                          >
                        • Distant Scholar
                          pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 7 12:04 PM
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                            pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.

                            Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.

                            DS/DL

                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                            > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                            >
                            > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                            >
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                            >
                            > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                            > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                            > >
                            > > DS/DL
                            > >
                            > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                            > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                            > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                            > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                            > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                            > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                            > > > > carrying it."
                            > > >
                            > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                            > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                            > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                            > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                            > > >
                            > > > Stefan.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • pfsgamer
                            Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit. Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 7 12:19 PM
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                              Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                              Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!

                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                              >
                              > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                              >
                              > DS/DL
                              >
                              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                              > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                              > >
                              > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                              > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                              > > >
                              > > > DS/DL
                              > > >
                              > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                              > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                              > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                              > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                              > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                              > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                              > > > > > carrying it."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                              > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                              > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                              > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Stefan.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Paul
                              PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 7 4:26 PM
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                                PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                > Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                >
                                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                > >
                                > > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                > >
                                > > DS/DL
                                > >
                                > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                > > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                > > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > DS/DL
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                > > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                > > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                > > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                > > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                > > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                > > > > > > carrying it."
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                > > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                > > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                > > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Stefan.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • FerretDave
                                Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious? What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 8 5:33 AM
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                                  Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious?

                                  What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?

                                  A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level would be amusing too :-)

                                  Cheers
                                  D

                                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                  >
                                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                  > > Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > DS/DL
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                  > > > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                  > > > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > DS/DL
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                  > > > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                  > > > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                  > > > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                  > > > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                  > > > > > > > carrying it."
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                  > > > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                  > > > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                  > > > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Stefan.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Andrew
                                  In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should declare your encumbrance load - it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 8 7:26 AM
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                                    In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should declare your encumbrance load -
                                    it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if the character is encumbered.

                                    I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                    find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load, Red for Heavy Load, or
                                    increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.

                                    Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                    further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your equipment, your character is
                                    encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that summary screen has room for a
                                    Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.

                                    Cheers,


                                    On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                    > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious?
                                    >
                                    > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                    >
                                    > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level would be amusing too :-)
                                    >
                                    > Cheers
                                    > D
                                    >
                                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                    >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                    >>
                                    >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                    >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                    >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                    >>>
                                    >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> DS/DL
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                    >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                    >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                    >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> DS/DL
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                    >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                    >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                    >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                    >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                    >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                    >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                    >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                    >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                    >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Related Lists
                                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                    >
                                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                    > (for new official data source development)
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • UnclePete
                                    Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows Equipment Info as LOAD including the encumbrance levels, which is very useful. Colour
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 8 2:34 PM
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                                      Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                      Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                      useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.

                                      This info is really only useful when changing a character and it's being
                                      displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                      character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                      constantly during a gaming session.

                                      Pete


                                      On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                      > declare your encumbrance load -
                                      > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                      > the character is encumbered.
                                      >
                                      > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                      > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                      > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                      > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                      > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                      >
                                      > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                      > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                      > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                      > equipment, your character is
                                      > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                      > summary screen has room for a
                                      > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      >
                                      > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                      > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                      > thing more obvious?
                                      > >
                                      > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                      > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                      > >
                                      > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                      > would be amusing too :-)
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers
                                      > > D
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                      > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                      > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                      > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                      > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                      > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                      > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                      > category.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>> DS/DL
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                      > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                      > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                      > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                      > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                      > datasets are
                                      > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                      > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                      > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                      > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                      > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                      > a rogue
                                      > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                      > 0. Why is
                                      > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                      > >>>>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                      > while
                                      > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                      > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                      > bow, which
                                      > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                      > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                      > the cost
                                      > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                      > >>>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                      > >>>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Related Lists
                                      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                      > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > PCGen List File Help:
                                      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      > >
                                      > > PCGen Experimental:
                                      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      > > (for new official data source development)
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                      > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                      > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                      > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • FerretDave
                                      Greetings, ... You re not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of odd skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 9 5:53 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Greetings,

                                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                        > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                        > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.

                                        You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.

                                        >
                                        > This info is really only useful when changing a character

                                        Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.

                                        > and it's being
                                        > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                        > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to

                                        Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.

                                        > constantly during a gaming session.
                                        >
                                        > Pete
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                        > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                        > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                        > > the character is encumbered.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                        > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                        > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                        > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                        > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                        > >
                                        > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                        > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                        > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                        > > equipment, your character is
                                        > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that

                                        I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.

                                        > > summary screen has room for a
                                        > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers,

                                        Cheers
                                        D
                                        > >
                                        > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                        > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                        > > thing more obvious?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                        > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                        > > would be amusing too :-)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Cheers
                                        > > > D
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                        > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                        > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                        > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                        > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                        > > >>>
                                        > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                        > > >>>>
                                        > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                        > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                        > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                        > > >>>>
                                        > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                        > > category.
                                        > > >>>>
                                        > > >>>> DS/DL
                                        > > >>>>
                                        > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                        > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                        > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                        > > >>>>>
                                        > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                        > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                        > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                        > > >>>>>
                                        > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                        > > >>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                        > > datasets are
                                        > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                        > > >>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                        > > >>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                        > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                        > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                        > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                        > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                        > > a rogue
                                        > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                        > > 0. Why is
                                        > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                        > > >>>>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                        > > while
                                        > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                        > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                        > > bow, which
                                        > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                        > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                        > > the cost
                                        > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                        > > >>>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                        > > >>>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>>
                                        > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >>>>>>
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Related Lists
                                        > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                        > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                        > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                        > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                        > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                        > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                        > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                        > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                        > > > (for new official data source development)
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --
                                        > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                        > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                        > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                        > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                        > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • pfsgamer
                                        I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 10 7:50 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked like 5, which would have been ok.

                                          Did not notice that IGHT changed to EDIUM.
                                          Have not investigated the font display as it has not been a priority....

                                          Curious: is selective BOLD possible in this area, for when encumbrance changes? Just on certain words/numbers.


                                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Greetings,
                                          >
                                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                          > > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                          > > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.
                                          >
                                          > You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > This info is really only useful when changing a character
                                          >
                                          > Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.
                                          >
                                          > > and it's being
                                          > > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                          > > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                          >
                                          > Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.
                                          >
                                          > > constantly during a gaming session.
                                          > >
                                          > > Pete
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                          > > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                          > > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                          > > > the character is encumbered.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                          > > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                          > > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                          > > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                          > > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                          > > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                          > > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                          > > > equipment, your character is
                                          > > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                          >
                                          > I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.
                                          >
                                          > > > summary screen has room for a
                                          > > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Cheers,
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          > D
                                          > > >
                                          > > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                          > > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                          > > > thing more obvious?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                          > > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                          > > > would be amusing too :-)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Cheers
                                          > > > > D
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                          > > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                          > > > >>
                                          > > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                          > > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                          > > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                          > > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                          > > > >>>
                                          > > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                          > > > >>>>
                                          > > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                          > > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                          > > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                          > > > >>>>
                                          > > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                          > > > category.
                                          > > > >>>>
                                          > > > >>>> DS/DL
                                          > > > >>>>
                                          > > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                          > > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                          > > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                          > > > >>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                          > > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                          > > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                          > > > >>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                          > > > >>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                          > > > datasets are
                                          > > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                          > > > >>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                          > > > >>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                          > > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                          > > > a rogue
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                          > > > 0. Why is
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                          > > > >>>>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                          > > > while
                                          > > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                          > > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                          > > > bow, which
                                          > > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                          > > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                          > > > the cost
                                          > > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                          > > > >>>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                          > > > >>>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>>
                                          > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > >>>>>>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ------------------------------------
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Related Lists
                                          > > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          > > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                          > > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          > > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          > > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                          > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          > > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                          > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          > > > > (for new official data source development)
                                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --
                                          > > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                          > > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                          > > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                          > > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                          > > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • FerretDave
                                          Greetings, Enhancing this has already been requested: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1363 Cheers D
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 11 7:44 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Greetings,
                                            Enhancing this has already been requested:
                                            http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1363

                                            Cheers
                                            D
                                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked like 5, which would have been ok.
                                            >
                                            > Did not notice that IGHT changed to EDIUM.
                                            > Have not investigated the font display as it has not been a priority....
                                            >
                                            > Curious: is selective BOLD possible in this area, for when encumbrance changes? Just on certain words/numbers.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Greetings,
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                            > > > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                            > > > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.
                                            > >
                                            > > You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > This info is really only useful when changing a character
                                            > >
                                            > > Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.
                                            > >
                                            > > > and it's being
                                            > > > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                            > > > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                            > >
                                            > > Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.
                                            > >
                                            > > > constantly during a gaming session.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pete
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                            > > > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                            > > > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                            > > > > the character is encumbered.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                            > > > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                            > > > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                            > > > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                            > > > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                            > > > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                            > > > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                            > > > > equipment, your character is
                                            > > > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                            > >
                                            > > I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.
                                            > >
                                            > > > > summary screen has room for a
                                            > > > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Cheers,
                                            > >
                                            > > Cheers
                                            > > D
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                            > > > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                            > > > > thing more obvious?
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                            > > > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                            > > > > would be amusing too :-)
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Cheers
                                            > > > > > D
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                            > > > > >>
                                            > > > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                            > > > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                            > > > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                            > > > > >>>
                                            > > > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >>>>
                                            > > > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                            > > > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                            > > > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                            > > > > >>>>
                                            > > > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                            > > > > category.
                                            > > > > >>>>
                                            > > > > >>>> DS/DL
                                            > > > > >>>>
                                            > > > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                            > > > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                            > > > > >>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                            > > > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                            > > > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                            > > > > >>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                            > > > > datasets are
                                            > > > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                            > > > > >>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                            > > > > >>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                            > > > > a rogue
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                            > > > > 0. Why is
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                            > > > > while
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                            > > > > bow, which
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                            > > > > the cost
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                            > > > > >>>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>>
                                            > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > >>>>>>
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Related Lists
                                            > > > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                            > > > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                            > > > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                            > > > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                            > > > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                            > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                            > > > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                            > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                            > > > > > (for new official data source development)
                                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --
                                            > > > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                            > > > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                            > > > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                            > > > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                            > > > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
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