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Re: [pcgen] Darkwood Buckler

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    ... That means you don t get penalties to attack when using the bow, which has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still applies to alls
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 6, 2012
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      On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
      > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
      > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
      > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
      > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
      > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
      >
      > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
      > carrying it."

      That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
      has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
      applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
      for using it non-proficiently.

      Stefan.
    • Doug Limmer
      A darkwood buckler has a 0 Armor Check penalty, so shouldn t penalize skills. (It also might technically be a light shield, but that s a completely different
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 6, 2012
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        A darkwood buckler has a 0 Armor Check penalty, so shouldn't penalize
        skills. (It also might technically be a light shield, but that's a
        completely different matter.)

        As a separate penalty, a regular buckler gives -1 to attack rolls to
        weapons held in the same hand, except for bows and crossbows, but you
        lose the buckler's AC bonus while doing so.

        @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
        you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)

        DS/DL

        On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
        >
        > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
        > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
        > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
        > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
        > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
        > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
        > >
        > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
        > > carrying it."
        >
        > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
        > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
        > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
        > for using it non-proficiently.
        >
        > Stefan.
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Susan Dittmar
        ... Stop! Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this case for sure, I
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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          Quoting Doug Limmer (adventure@...):
          > A darkwood buckler has a 0 Armor Check penalty, so shouldn't penalize
          > skills. (It also might technically be a light shield, but that's a
          > completely different matter.)

          Stop! Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
          proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this case for
          sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
          pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
          shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.

          Hope that helps,

          Susan
        • Doug Limmer
          ... Hammer Time! ... Do you have a source for that? I ve never heard of such a rule. DS/DL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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            On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
            >
            > Stop!
            >
            Hammer Time!
            >
            > Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
            > proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
            > case for
            > sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
            > pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
            > shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
            >
            Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.

            DS/DL



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David R. Bender
            I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html) Armor Proficiency,
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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              I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the
              PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html)


              Armor Proficiency, Light (Combat)

              You are skilled at wearing light armor.

              *Benefit:* When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient,
              the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity
              <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#_dexterity>- and
              Strength-based skill checks.

              *Normal:* A character who is wearing armor with which he is not
              proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
              skill checks that involve moving.

              *Special:* All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards
              automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need
              not select it.



              -- david
              Papa.DRB

              My better half and me (jpg)
              <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

              Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

              On 3/7/2012 5:48 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
              > On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
              >> Stop!
              >>
              > Hammer Time!
              >> Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
              >> proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
              >> case for
              >> sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
              >> pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
              >> shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
              >>
              > Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.
              >
              > DS/DL
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Related Lists
              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >
              >
              > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >
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              > (for new official data source development)
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
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            • Eric C Smith
              Hi Folks! I ve been following this thread and am leaning in pfsgamer s and Doug s direction on this one. Given David s included info below, and adding the
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                Hi Folks!

                I've been following this thread and am leaning in pfsgamer's and Doug's direction on this one.

                Given David's included info below, and adding the effect on the Armor Check Penalty that Darkwood has on the buckler it looks to me like the ACP for a Darkwood Buckler is indeed zero. (Relevant part of the Darkwood description included below.)

                "Darkwood: . . . The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type."

                A Buckler as a ACP of -1 and when you apply the Darkwood effect, and realizing that you can't reduce the penalty below zero, a Darkwood Buckler has an ACP of zero. It is clear that the ACP DOES effect the STR and DEX based skill checks whether the character is proficient with the buckler or not, but I can't find a reference that states that the bonuses granted by special materials is not applied to the ACP when making such checks. The references siply state that the ACP id modified, in the case of the Darkwood material, and that the ACP is applied to the skill checks.

                As for Susan's assertion that non-proficiency in armor or shield leads to an additional ACP equal to the armor bonus, I can't find any reference to that. Susan, can you point me to the reference?

                Maredudd

                On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:42 AM, David R. Bender wrote:

                > I have not been following this conversation completely, but from the
                > PRD, look under Normal: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html)
                >
                > Armor Proficiency, Light (Combat)
                >
                > You are skilled at wearing light armor.
                >
                > *Benefit:* When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient,
                > the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity
                > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#_dexterity>- and
                > Strength-based skill checks.
                >
                > *Normal:* A character who is wearing armor with which he is not
                > proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
                > skill checks that involve moving.
                >
                > *Special:* All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards
                > automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need
                > not select it.
                >
                > -- david
                > Papa.DRB
                >
                > My better half and me (jpg)
                > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >
                > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                >
                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >
                > On 3/7/2012 5:48 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
                > > On 3/7/2012 4:24 AM, Susan Dittmar wrote:
                > >> Stop!
                > >>
                > > Hammer Time!
                > >> Armor Check penalty is the penalty which applies even if you are
                > >> proficient with the kind of armor. There is an additional (in this
                > >> case for
                > >> sure, I don't know if the penalties stack) Armor Check penalty for using
                > >> pieces of armor without the proficiency, which is equal to the armor (or
                > >> shield) bonus granted by the piece of armor.
                > >>
                > > Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of such a rule.
                > >
                > > DS/DL
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Related Lists
                > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                > >
                > >
                > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                > >
                > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > > (for new official data source development)
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Susan Dittmar
                ... I can t. My memory has failed me. To my knowledge, there is no such additional armor check penalty. Teaches me to check with the sources *before* I post.
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                  Quoting Eric C Smith (maredudd@...):
                  > As for Susan's assertion that non-proficiency in armor or shield leads to
                  > an additional ACP equal to the armor bonus, I can't find any reference to
                  > that. Susan, can you point me to the reference?

                  I can't. My memory has failed me. To my knowledge, there is no such
                  additional armor check penalty. Teaches me to check with the sources
                  *before* I post.

                  Susan
                • pfsgamer
                  PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat. The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook. Thanks for looking into this. The only
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                    PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                    The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.

                    Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.

                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:

                    > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                    > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                    >
                    > DS/DL
                    >
                    > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                    > >
                    > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                    > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                    > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                    > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                    > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                    > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                    > > >
                    > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                    > > > carrying it."
                    > >
                    > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                    > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                    > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                    > > for using it non-proficiently.
                    > >
                    > > Stefan.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Doug Limmer
                    I tried this out. First, a couple of caveats: 1. I m assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-) 2. I m further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                      I tried this out.

                      First, a couple of caveats:
                      1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                      2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                      may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                      3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                      available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                      4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                      wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                      with.

                      The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                      Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.

                      I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                      14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                      unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                      to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                      equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                      With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                      and attack with the bow.

                      Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                      the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                      I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                      buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                      as both?

                      [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                      for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                      give that penalty for bows and crossbows.

                      DS/DL

                      On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                      >
                      > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                      > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                      >
                      > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                      > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                      > did not interfere with the bow.
                      >
                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                      > Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                      > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                      > >
                      > > DS/DL
                      > >
                      > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                      > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                      > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                      > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                      > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                      > Why is
                      > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                      > > > > carrying it."
                      > > >
                      > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                      > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                      > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                      > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                      > > >
                      > > > Stefan.
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • UnclePete
                      I ve been following this with some interest. As DM, I have had to remind some players to reduce their AC if using a weapon or casting a spell while wearing a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                        I've been following this with some interest. As DM, I have had to remind
                        some players to reduce their AC if using a weapon or casting a spell
                        while wearing a buckler. From PCGen's point of view, equipping both a
                        weapon and a buckler at the same time is acceptable - the adjustment to
                        AC is a player's responsibility. However, allowing shield bash with a
                        buckler is wrong and needs fixing.

                        Pathfinder Core Rulebook, 5th printing, p150:
                        "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the
                        buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with
                        somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC
                        bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler."

                        This simple statement, however, has produced some robust discussion
                        about what constitutes weapon "use" and what is required to regain the
                        buckler AC. If anyone is interested in our house rules resulting from
                        these discussions, let me know and I'll be happy to share.

                        Pete



                        On 03/08/2012 02:13 AM, Doug Limmer wrote:
                        >
                        > I tried this out.
                        >
                        > First, a couple of caveats:
                        > 1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                        > 2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                        > may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                        > 3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                        > available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                        > 4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                        > wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                        > with.
                        >
                        > The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                        > Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.
                        >
                        > I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                        > 14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                        > unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                        > to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                        > equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                        > With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                        > and attack with the bow.
                        >
                        > Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                        > the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                        > I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                        > buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                        > as both?
                        >
                        > [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                        > for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                        > give that penalty for bows and crossbows.
                        >
                        > DS/DL
                        >
                        > On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                        > >
                        > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                        > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                        > > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                        > > did not interfere with the bow.
                        > >
                        > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                        > > Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                        > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                        > > >
                        > > > DS/DL
                        > > >
                        > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                        > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                        > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                        > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a
                        > rogue
                        > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                        > > Why is
                        > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                        > while
                        > > > > > carrying it."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow,
                        > which
                        > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                        > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                        > the cost
                        > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Stefan.
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • pfsgamer
                        Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder. Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills. I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable. Skills
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                          Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.

                          Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                          I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                          Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)

                          Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.

                          She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)


                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I tried this out.
                          >
                          > First, a couple of caveats:
                          > 1. I'm assuming you mean 5.17.10 rather than 5.1.7.10. :-)
                          > 2. I'm further assuming PFS Core means Pathfinder Core Rulebook; there
                          > may be some Pathfinder Society Core I'm unaware of.
                          > 3. My version of 5.17.10 didn't have an Ultimate Combat selection
                          > available. Thus, I didn't select it.
                          > 4. I'm assuming "archer" is more a description of what the character
                          > wants to be, rather than some Archetype or other ability I'm unfamiliar
                          > with.
                          >
                          > The short version: I'm not seeing a problem. Run PCGen without that
                          > Ultimate Combat loaded (maybe it's messing up the buckler?) and try again.
                          >
                          > I made a Neutral Good half-elf rogue level 1, 25 point buy,
                          > 14/16/14/14/10/10 stats; skills, feats, class abilities, etc. left
                          > unchosen, no traits, and added buckler, darkwood buckler, and shortbow
                          > to the inventory. Shortbow equipped. With the regular buckler
                          > equipped, I get the expected -1 to skills and attack with the bow[1].
                          > With the darkwood buckler equipped, I don't get any modifier to skills
                          > and attack with the bow.
                          >
                          > Now, I *do* get a shield bash with the darkwood buckler, which suggests
                          > the program is treating it like a light shield for bashing purposes, but
                          > I am still able to equip both the shortbow (two-handed) and the darkwood
                          > buckler at the same time. Maybe the darkwood buckler is being treated
                          > as both?
                          >
                          > [1]This is the -1 for being non-proficient with the buckler, not a -1
                          > for having a buckler on the same arm as the weapon, since bucklers don't
                          > give that penalty for bows and crossbows.
                          >
                          > DS/DL
                          >
                          > On 3/7/2012 9:29 AM, pfsgamer wrote:
                          > >
                          > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                          > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the
                          > > thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and
                          > > did not interfere with the bow.
                          > >
                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug
                          > > Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                          > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                          > > >
                          > > > DS/DL
                          > > >
                          > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                          > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                          > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                          > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                          > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0.
                          > > Why is
                          > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                          > > > > > carrying it."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                          > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                          > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                          > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Stefan.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Eric C Smith
                          Hi pfsgamer, What are your referring to when you say Guide ? Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . . Maredudd
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                            Hi pfsgamer,

                            What are your referring to when you say "Guide"?

                            Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . .

                            Maredudd

                            On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:58 PM, pfsgamer wrote:

                            > Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.
                            >
                            > Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                            > I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                            > Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)
                            >
                            > Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.
                            >
                            > She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)
                          • pfsgamer
                            Guide to Organized Play 4.0 -- Required for PFS! :-)
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                              Guide to Organized Play 4.0 -- Required for PFS! :-)

                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eric C Smith <maredudd@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi pfsgamer,
                              >
                              > What are your referring to when you say "Guide"?
                              >
                              > Core, APG, and ISP are obvious but Guide, by itself, means nothing . . .
                              >
                              > Maredudd
                              >
                              > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:58 PM, pfsgamer wrote:
                              >
                              > > Thanks, Doug. Found & deleted the Ultimate Combat folder.
                              > >
                              > > Darkwood Buckler stills damages skills.
                              > > I agree it should not bash, but that is ignorable.
                              > > Skills failing - not ignorable... :-)
                              > >
                              > > Added Inner Sea Primer to pick up the Azlanti language. So 4 sources: Core, APG, Guide, ISP. It may even load w/o ISP once the language has been selected, I don't know.
                              > >
                              > > She is level 6 so dropping these would be problematic to the rest of her feats & traits... :-)
                              >
                            • Distant Scholar
                              pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                                pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.

                                Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.

                                DS/DL

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                >
                                > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                >
                                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                > >
                                > > DS/DL
                                > >
                                > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                > > > > carrying it."
                                > > >
                                > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                > > >
                                > > > Stefan.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                              • pfsgamer
                                Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit. Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                                  Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                  Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!

                                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                  >
                                  > DS/DL
                                  >
                                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                  > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                  > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > DS/DL
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                  > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                  > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                  > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                  > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                  > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                  > > > > > carrying it."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                  > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                  > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                  > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Stefan.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Paul
                                  PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 7, 2012
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                                    PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.

                                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                    > Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                    >
                                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                    > >
                                    > > DS/DL
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                    > > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                    > > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > DS/DL
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                    > > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                    > > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                    > > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                    > > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                    > > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                    > > > > > > carrying it."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                    > > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                    > > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                    > > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Stefan.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • FerretDave
                                    Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious? What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                      Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious?

                                      What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?

                                      A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level would be amusing too :-)

                                      Cheers
                                      D

                                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                      >
                                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                      > > Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > DS/DL
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                      > > > > The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                      > > > > > you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > DS/DL
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                      > > > > > > > (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                      > > > > > > > before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                      > > > > > > > can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                      > > > > > > > it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                      > > > > > > > carrying it."
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                      > > > > > > has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                      > > > > > > applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                      > > > > > > for using it non-proficiently.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Stefan.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Andrew
                                      In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should declare your encumbrance load - it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                        In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should declare your encumbrance load -
                                        it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if the character is encumbered.

                                        I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                        find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load, Red for Heavy Load, or
                                        increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.

                                        Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                        further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your equipment, your character is
                                        encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that summary screen has room for a
                                        Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.

                                        Cheers,


                                        On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                        > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of thing more obvious?
                                        >
                                        > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                        >
                                        > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level would be amusing too :-)
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        > D
                                        >
                                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                        >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                        >>
                                        >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                        >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                        >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                        >>>
                                        >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the character into Medium encumbrance.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance category.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> DS/DL
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                        >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                        >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties, and did not interfere with the bow.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what datasets are
                                        >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> DS/DL
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                        >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                        >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                        >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told a rogue
                                        >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be 0. Why is
                                        >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while
                                        >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                        >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the bow, which
                                        >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                        >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is the cost
                                        >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Related Lists
                                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                        >
                                        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                        > (for new official data source development)
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • UnclePete
                                        Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows Equipment Info as LOAD including the encumbrance levels, which is very useful. Colour
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                          Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                          Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                          useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.

                                          This info is really only useful when changing a character and it's being
                                          displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                          character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                          constantly during a gaming session.

                                          Pete


                                          On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >
                                          > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                          > declare your encumbrance load -
                                          > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                          > the character is encumbered.
                                          >
                                          > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                          > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                          > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                          > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                          > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                          >
                                          > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                          > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                          > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                          > equipment, your character is
                                          > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                          > summary screen has room for a
                                          > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          >
                                          > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                          > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                          > thing more obvious?
                                          > >
                                          > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                          > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                          > >
                                          > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                          > would be amusing too :-)
                                          > >
                                          > > Cheers
                                          > > D
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > "Paul" <nylanfs@...> wrote:
                                          > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                          > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                          > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                          > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                          > >>>>
                                          > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                          > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                          > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                          > >>>>
                                          > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                          > category.
                                          > >>>>
                                          > >>>> DS/DL
                                          > >>>>
                                          > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                          > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                          > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                          > >>>>>
                                          > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                          > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                          > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                          > >>>>>
                                          > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                          > >>>>>
                                          > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                          > datasets are
                                          > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                          > >>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                          > >>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                          > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                          > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                          > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                          > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                          > a rogue
                                          > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                          > 0. Why is
                                          > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                          > >>>>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                          > while
                                          > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                          > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                          > bow, which
                                          > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                          > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                          > the cost
                                          > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                          > >>>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                          > >>>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>>
                                          > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >>>>>>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Related Lists
                                          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                          > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > PCGen List File Help:
                                          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          > >
                                          > > PCGen Experimental:
                                          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          > > (for new official data source development)
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • FerretDave
                                          Greetings, ... You re not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of odd skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 9, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Greetings,

                                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                            > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                            > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.

                                            You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.

                                            >
                                            > This info is really only useful when changing a character

                                            Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.

                                            > and it's being
                                            > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                            > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to

                                            Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.

                                            > constantly during a gaming session.
                                            >
                                            > Pete
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                            > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                            > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                            > > the character is encumbered.
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                            > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                            > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                            > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                            > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                            > >
                                            > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                            > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                            > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                            > > equipment, your character is
                                            > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that

                                            I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.

                                            > > summary screen has room for a
                                            > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                            > >
                                            > > Cheers,

                                            Cheers
                                            D
                                            > >
                                            > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                            > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                            > > thing more obvious?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                            > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                            > > would be amusing too :-)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Cheers
                                            > > > D
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                            > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                            > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                            > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                            > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                            > > >>>>
                                            > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                            > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                            > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                            > > >>>>
                                            > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                            > > category.
                                            > > >>>>
                                            > > >>>> DS/DL
                                            > > >>>>
                                            > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                            > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                            > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                            > > >>>>>
                                            > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                            > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                            > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                            > > >>>>>
                                            > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                            > > >>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                            > > datasets are
                                            > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                            > > >>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                            > > >>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                            > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                            > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                            > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                            > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                            > > a rogue
                                            > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                            > > 0. Why is
                                            > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                            > > >>>>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                            > > while
                                            > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                            > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                            > > bow, which
                                            > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                            > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                            > > the cost
                                            > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                            > > >>>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                            > > >>>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>>
                                            > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >>>>>>
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Related Lists
                                            > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                            > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                            > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                            > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                            > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                            > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                            > > > (for new official data source development)
                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --
                                            > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                            > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                            > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                            > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                            > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • pfsgamer
                                            I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 10, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked like 5, which would have been ok.

                                              Did not notice that IGHT changed to EDIUM.
                                              Have not investigated the font display as it has not been a priority....

                                              Curious: is selective BOLD possible in this area, for when encumbrance changes? Just on certain words/numbers.


                                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Greetings,
                                              >
                                              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                              > > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                              > > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.
                                              >
                                              > You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > > This info is really only useful when changing a character
                                              >
                                              > Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.
                                              >
                                              > > and it's being
                                              > > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                              > > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                              >
                                              > Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.
                                              >
                                              > > constantly during a gaming session.
                                              > >
                                              > > Pete
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                              > > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                              > > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                              > > > the character is encumbered.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                              > > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                              > > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                              > > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                              > > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                              > > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                              > > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                              > > > equipment, your character is
                                              > > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                              >
                                              > I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.
                                              >
                                              > > > summary screen has room for a
                                              > > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Cheers,
                                              >
                                              > Cheers
                                              > D
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                              > > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                              > > > thing more obvious?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                              > > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                              > > > would be amusing too :-)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Cheers
                                              > > > > D
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                              > > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                              > > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                              > > > >>
                                              > > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                              > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                              > > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                              > > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                              > > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                              > > > >>>
                                              > > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                              > > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                              > > > >>>>
                                              > > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                              > > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                              > > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                              > > > >>>>
                                              > > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                              > > > category.
                                              > > > >>>>
                                              > > > >>>> DS/DL
                                              > > > >>>>
                                              > > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                              > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                              > > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                              > > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                              > > > >>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                              > > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                              > > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                              > > > >>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                              > > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                              > > > >>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                              > > > datasets are
                                              > > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                              > > > >>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                              > > > >>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                              > > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                              > > > a rogue
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                              > > > 0. Why is
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                              > > > >>>>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                              > > > while
                                              > > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                              > > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                              > > > bow, which
                                              > > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                              > > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                              > > > the cost
                                              > > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                              > > > >>>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                              > > > >>>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>>
                                              > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > >>>>>>
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Related Lists
                                              > > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                              > > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                              > > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                              > > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                              > > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                              > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                              > > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                              > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                              > > > > (for new official data source development)
                                              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --
                                              > > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              > > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                              > > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                              > > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                              > > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • FerretDave
                                              Greetings, Enhancing this has already been requested: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1363 Cheers D
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 11, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Greetings,
                                                Enhancing this has already been requested:
                                                http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1363

                                                Cheers
                                                D
                                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I probably should mention that I do tend to glance at the total weight -- but for some reason the font in PCGen window gets cut off... and the 6 truly looked like 5, which would have been ok.
                                                >
                                                > Did not notice that IGHT changed to EDIUM.
                                                > Have not investigated the font display as it has not been a priority....
                                                >
                                                > Curious: is selective BOLD possible in this area, for when encumbrance changes? Just on certain words/numbers.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Greetings,
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, UnclePete <uncle@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Encumbrance information is already displayed in the panel that shows
                                                > > > Equipment Info as 'LOAD' including the encumbrance levels, which is very
                                                > > > useful. Colour coding it may be useful, but I can't see any great benefit.
                                                > >
                                                > > You're not the first person to overlook encumberance being the cause of 'odd' skill penalties, so making this more obvious in the GUI may be helpful.
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > This info is really only useful when changing a character
                                                > >
                                                > > Though knowing during a game that adding/removing some items/loot will change your encumberance is often handy.
                                                > >
                                                > > > and it's being
                                                > > > displayed where it needs to be, so I'd be a bit reluctant to see my
                                                > > > character sheet further cluttered with stuff I don't need to refer to
                                                > >
                                                > > Encumberance is just a couple of lines on the OS, at the bottom of your equipment list is a short summary indicating weight allowances for each level.
                                                > >
                                                > > > constantly during a gaming session.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Pete
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > On 03/09/2012 02:26 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In at least the pdf version, you get an encumbrance box that should
                                                > > > > declare your encumbrance load -
                                                > > > > it appears under the Base Attack Bonus box. It also only appears if
                                                > > > > the character is encumbered.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I'm not sure I'd appreciate a pop up box while I'm work with the
                                                > > > > Character. I'd be more inclined to
                                                > > > > find other methods, like turning the Weight Yellow for Medium Load,
                                                > > > > Red for Heavy Load, or
                                                > > > > increasing the size of the font when it reaches an encumbered level.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Something Visually Eye Catching. We already have enough pop up
                                                > > > > dialogs. If you want to go a little
                                                > > > > further we could add a message to the TO DO box, "Verify your
                                                > > > > equipment, your character is
                                                > > > > encumbered* or something akin. We have so many new avenues, like that
                                                > >
                                                > > I like the idea of this being in the 'TODO box'.
                                                > >
                                                > > > > summary screen has room for a
                                                > > > > Change to Draw Attention to being encumbered.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Cheers,
                                                > >
                                                > > Cheers
                                                > > D
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > On 3/8/2012 5:33 AM, FerretDave wrote:
                                                > > > > > Perhaps we want the load display enhancing to make this sort of
                                                > > > > thing more obvious?
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > What if, when you add a piece of equipment, if this pushes you from
                                                > > > > light to medium, or medium to heavy, a dialog pops up warning you?
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > A similar 'congrats!' on removing equipment and dropping a level
                                                > > > > would be amusing too :-)
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Cheers
                                                > > > > > D
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > > > > "Paul" <nylanfs@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >> PFS, make different equipment sets for different situations.
                                                > > > > >>
                                                > > > > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >>> Oh my! You are correct and I should have caught that - I am
                                                > > > > frequently swapping equipment because of the load limit.
                                                > > > > >>> Thank you! Sorry for the fuss!
                                                > > > > >>>
                                                > > > > >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > > > > "Distant Scholar" <adventure@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                > > > > >>>> pfsgamer sent me the character file, and I discovered the
                                                > > > > problem: equipping the darkwood buckler is just enough to put the
                                                > > > > character into Medium encumbrance.
                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                > > > > >>>> Yes, the character was within 2.5 lbs of the Medium encumbrance
                                                > > > > category.
                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                > > > > >>>> DS/DL
                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                > > > > >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > > > > "pfsgamer" <losttrader2000@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >>>>> PCGen 5.1.7.10 w/ PFS Core, APG, Guide 4.0, and Ultimate Combat.
                                                > > > > >>>>> The Darkwood Buckler is from the Core rulebook.
                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>> Thanks for looking into this. The only reason the character got
                                                > > > > the thing was because she was told it did not produce any penalties,
                                                > > > > and did not interfere with the bow.
                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > > > > Doug Limmer <adventure@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>> @pfsgamer: What version of PCGen are you using, and what
                                                > > > > datasets are
                                                > > > > >>>>>> you loading? (If you gave this information earlier, I've lost it.)
                                                > > > > >>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>> DS/DL
                                                > > > > >>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>> On 3/6/2012 12:37 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> On 06.03.2012 18:03, pfsgamer wrote:
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> I noticed today that an archer (rogue) using a buckler
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> (non-proficient) has her skills trashed. This was NOT the case
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> before, and does not make sense. Especially since I was told
                                                > > > > a rogue
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> can equip a buckler without penalty. The AC check should be
                                                > > > > 0. Why is
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> it suddenly affecting SKILLs?
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> from the book: "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty
                                                > > > > while
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>> carrying it."
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> That means you don't get penalties to attack when using the
                                                > > > > bow, which
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> has nothing to do with using skills. The armor check penalty still
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> applies to alls Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Such is
                                                > > > > the cost
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> for using it non-proficiently.
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                                > > > > >>>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>>
                                                > > > > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > > > > >>>>>>
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Related Lists
                                                > > > > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                                > > > > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links:
                                                > > > > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                                > > > > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                                > > > > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > PCGen List File Help:
                                                > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                                > > > > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > PCGen Experimental:
                                                > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                                > > > > > (for new official data source development)
                                                > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --
                                                > > > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                > > > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                > > > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                > > > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                > > > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
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