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Re: How to make 5.14.1 work on OSX Lion

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  • FerretDave
    Greetings, Sorry to hear you ve become too demotivated to try. There isn t a simple fix I m afraid (nobody can give you updated datasets, as nice as that would
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2012
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      Greetings,
      Sorry to hear you've become too demotivated to try. There isn't a simple fix I'm afraid (nobody can give you updated datasets, as nice as that would be), the only solution is to update these yourself.

      I see your point on having PCGen as your 'browsing' tool with all the sources included, but that does mean that you're loading up a heck of a lot. I presume you use a script to start pcgen, and have allocated more memory to the process (or is that only needed for windows?)

      The more you load, the slower PCGen gets and the more cross references, typos and duplicates can give errors, but if you need it all, then so be it.
      However, consider if you definately do - there are epic & prestige classes, wondrous items and monster races, which can all be ignored if you're only doing low level character generation (for example).

      Migrating from CMP - my reasons are based around being able to use new functionality, such as abilities instead of SAB, and reusing improved code for things like Turning/Rage etc, which then output to the printed character sheet in more definable ways.
      CMP reinvented the wheel completely for their datasets, so they had to duplicate the effort in building their own version of the SRD, and while they added better descriptions, these sets are full of typo's and errors, while the PCGen SRD is maintained and corrected.
      For example, my Forgotten Realms version(s) of the various Half Elves merely pretty much just mod the standard SRD HalfElf, and add the FR template - no need to rebuild all the features over again.

      This is however, a process that really does need to be done piecemeal, rather than all in one go. It's more work, but pays off long term.

      As a stop-gap, to keep the 'browse' functionality you need, consider duplicating each row in the LST file, comment out the original entry and edit the copy to remove things that may cause errors, and then add SAB to indicate the 'missing' definitions.
      Then you can add in just the bits you need as you find them whilst still having the full list browsable.

      For instance, rather than a feat with a massive PRExxx definition, and various calculations and vfeats with cross references (that may not work), change it to:
      FeatNameBlah DESC:doessomething SAB:has loads of PRExx and provides vfeat:blah

      Same principle for every LST.



      >"Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."

      That implies that the source needed for the character isnt loaded, when you edit, do you change the PCC or just the LST? If you change the PCC you need to 'refresh sources' (or restart PCGen - which I'd actually highly recommend for the situation you're in) I presume that you're loading *all* the sources all the time? There's a preference to 'load sources with character', that you could use otherwise.

      Party file is for saving a whole group of PC's together, I doubt you'd be using this from what you've described, so this may just be a bug in 5.14 - one of the reasons for upgrading is to get the bugfixes...

      >when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening

      That does really prevent you from getting help in time certainly. For such a quick turn around, you can't afford to be editing lst files at that point. But if you're generating 'one off' characters (as appears to the case) then rather than fix the lst file, I'd just add a SAB to add a description for whatever wasnt working properly.

      >my friends ridicule me for still trying

      But I guess they are either trawling through a meter of books, or sticking with just basic characters, at least you've got an easy way to get all the info.

      If 5.14 works, then stick with it for now, but note that you can run two or more versions side by side - so you could have 5.14 with the full source list and 5.16 with a reduced list of just the ones you've fixed or currently need to use.
      Then you'd browse in 5.14, and as you choose things, load those sources (and fix as necessary) in 5.16. Keep a seperate copy of the datasets for each version to ensure compatibility, and keep a seperate PCGen preferences file for each instance.
      Hopefully this is what you're already doing?


      Cheers
      Dave
      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwllco" <g.a.renting@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Greetings,
      > >
      > > I'll admit my experience is with migrating from CMP, rather than trying to keep that gamemode working.
      > >
      > What's the advantage? Would it not be more work?
      >
      > > I'll reiterate a point from the wiki:
      > >
      > > You don't need to convert all of it.
      > >
      > > As it's only for personal use, you only need to focus on the bits that are actively used in your campaign(s).
      > >
      > > So comment out large chunks of it, and focus on the bits you *need*.
      > > If you can make it into more bitesize chunks, you'll find it far less daunting.
      > >
      >
      > The reason I have the CMP files and want to use them, is so that I can browse my options in PCGen. For example sort all the available races by LA or type. To me it's much quicker than going though more than a meter of books.
      >
      > If I wanted only those things in there that I am sure to use, I would write it from scratch instead of trying to convert the existing stuff.
      >
      > I have over 800 LST files. They work in 5.14 and I find the task of converting them to big and complicated. So I'm sticking with 5.14.
      >
      > I just wanted others who might be in the same position as me to know how to run things.
      >
      > > I know some of the odd things that have happened to me previously have been due to massive amounts of errors in the lst files causing program errors, I worked around this by being methodical - working on (editing and loading) just one source at a time, and commenting out anything that I wasnt specifically using (or intending to use) and just fixing the errors step by step. Once the errors were gone, then I'd work on the next set (and load *both* sources - slowly build up).
      > >
      > I've tried doing that. I gave up. I might be able to go though one LST file in an evening. Too much time gets lost with starting PCGen and building a character to see if something worked, then stopping it again, and trying something else.
      > One of the things that made me give up, is that I can now make some characters and things look kind of ok, but then I discover a problem in an LST file and on starting the program again and trying to load the character I was working on, I get errors like:
      > "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
      >
      > I could ask here what these might mean. But everyone seems focussed on 5.17.x and when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening, so having a discussion that might solve my problem in a week is not much help.
      >
      > With 5.14 I can make a character and know I'm done in 30 minutes. With 5.16 I might spend an evening trying to fix an LST file and then still ending up with other weird errors.
      >
      > In the mean time my friends ridicule me for still trying to use PCGen. I haven't been able to make a proper character on time for the evening since going to Lion and trying 5.16.
      >
      > I'm currently just fed up with the whole thing.
      >
      > > Note the wiki suggestion about using the batch file to start PCGen, thus giving you more visibility of load errors, this was a major eureka moment for me. (some errors are flagged *before* you load sources, or even before the GUI starts).
      > >
      > > On forum we can only discuss things in a generic context, if you want to discuss more specific issues feel free to contact me directly. I can't promise I can help, but I can try.
      > >
      > Thanks for the offer. Currently I am too demotivated to give this another try.
      >
      > > Cheers
      > > Dave
      > >
      > Thanks for the reply.
      >
      > RW
    • Andrew
      Hi, Updating the CMP sets*shouldn t* be all that hard, *if* done in a methodical manner and using the tools available. If the sets you have are working
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi,

        Updating the CMP sets*shouldn't* be all that hard, *if* done in a methodical manner and using the
        tools available.

        If the sets you have are working fantastic in 5.14, then you should be able to use the converter
        program available in 5.16 to bring those sets forward with minimal fuss - that was the purpose of
        the converter - to assist homebrews and older sets to stay current.

        From my own experience in keeping sets up to date the issues the converter isn't able to handle is
        improper syntax that 5.14 was silently dropping. With 5.16 we have greater error catching than
        before. The error catching improves even more as we progress into 6.0.

        Here is what I recommend - You run the PCGen Converter. It will have a LOG of issues it couldn't
        handle - look at those and fix them.

        Load up 5.16, Open you preferences - Find the Input - there should be a check box to select 'Show
        Detailed Error Report' or something along those lines. There is also the option to turn of
        deprecated warnings - I'd recommend unselecting that so you can fix the true errors first, then
        we'll worry about updating the syntax.

        Next - Load only your core set (PHB) (I prefer to use the bat file to load pcgen which has a dos
        console box open, but you can simply open the console in pcgen under tools IIRC).

        Note the Error Messages - If in the dox box select all the text and then hit 'ENTER' - that will
        save all those errors (I usually open my text editor and place those in their own file - errors.lst.

        Deprecated/Deprecation Messages should be safe to ignore for now - In fact if you followed the
        above, you shouldn't be seeing them.

        Unconstructed References - These are Abilities, Feats, Templates which are being asked for that the
        program cannot find. It will tell you what Category 'Feat' 'Special Ability' etc, and the name of
        the offending file. It should also give you the originating file for the call. Though that may be
        later in 5.17 we got that ability. In most cases you either have a typo (Misspelled name, or someone
        isn't using the KEY name if it's set). Fix those by either correcting the typo, or in the case it's
        actually missing, create one.

        Error Messages are the big issues - You've got syntax usage in a wrong file, or improper usage of
        syntax. It will usually tell you the file, and the offending syntax, in some cases you'll have one
        issue generate 2 to 3 warnings, since once one part of the syntax is bad, the rest is also bad.
        These need to be fixed for a smooth operation.

        NPEs - NullPointerErrors - Those are the OH CRAP errors that severely broke something - DO NOT
        CONTINUE TO USE PCGEN if you see one of these guys - any issue you find is NULL & VOID as the
        program is already broken and unstable. These need to be addressed immediately.
        Common causes of these guys - Spaces where spaces do not belong; stray symbols in odd places, or
        really bad syntax. In all cases, you should seek help here as any of the code monkeys and
        experienced Data Monkeys can usually discern what the cause is and direct you how to fix it.

        Other weird error messages - You either have a Code Issue, or your syntax is funky. Report it here.
        Unlike those nasty NPEs, these guys mean you broke something, but the rest of the program should be
        okay to use (i.e. your broken issue is isolated from the rest of the program).

        Like I said before, most of your error messages won't be the fault of the converter, it was bad
        syntax that was never discovered till the program was taught to announce it. It may seem like a
        mountain, but be methodical - Trust me, most of your errors can be caught at load up without opening
        any character. I'd say give yourself a couple of hours and most if not all your issues can be fixed.

        I'm usually available during the week to give guidance and to assist if you require it. Don't give
        up. If you have a troublesome set, and can't figure it out, SEND ME the error report off-list (my
        email should be visible in this reply). I'll reply off-list on what steps are required, which
        usually is enough to get you down the road. If you need more help, well, I don't have any issues
        debugging sets for people. I try to avoid offering that as a first recourse though - better to teach
        a man to fish so that he can feed himself every day, than to catch a fish for him and feed him only
        for a day.

        Cheers,




        On 3/1/2012 7:34 AM, FerretDave wrote:
        > Greetings,
        > Sorry to hear you've become too demotivated to try. There isn't a simple fix I'm afraid (nobody can give you updated datasets, as nice as that would be), the only solution is to update these yourself.
        >
        > I see your point on having PCGen as your 'browsing' tool with all the sources included, but that does mean that you're loading up a heck of a lot. I presume you use a script to start pcgen, and have allocated more memory to the process (or is that only needed for windows?)
        >
        > The more you load, the slower PCGen gets and the more cross references, typos and duplicates can give errors, but if you need it all, then so be it.
        > However, consider if you definately do - there are epic & prestige classes, wondrous items and monster races, which can all be ignored if you're only doing low level character generation (for example).
        >
        > Migrating from CMP - my reasons are based around being able to use new functionality, such as abilities instead of SAB, and reusing improved code for things like Turning/Rage etc, which then output to the printed character sheet in more definable ways.
        > CMP reinvented the wheel completely for their datasets, so they had to duplicate the effort in building their own version of the SRD, and while they added better descriptions, these sets are full of typo's and errors, while the PCGen SRD is maintained and corrected.
        > For example, my Forgotten Realms version(s) of the various Half Elves merely pretty much just mod the standard SRD HalfElf, and add the FR template - no need to rebuild all the features over again.
        >
        > This is however, a process that really does need to be done piecemeal, rather than all in one go. It's more work, but pays off long term.
        >
        > As a stop-gap, to keep the 'browse' functionality you need, consider duplicating each row in the LST file, comment out the original entry and edit the copy to remove things that may cause errors, and then add SAB to indicate the 'missing' definitions.
        > Then you can add in just the bits you need as you find them whilst still having the full list browsable.
        >
        > For instance, rather than a feat with a massive PRExxx definition, and various calculations and vfeats with cross references (that may not work), change it to:
        > FeatNameBlah DESC:doessomething SAB:has loads of PRExx and provides vfeat:blah
        >
        > Same principle for every LST.
        >
        >
        >
        >> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
        > That implies that the source needed for the character isnt loaded, when you edit, do you change the PCC or just the LST? If you change the PCC you need to 'refresh sources' (or restart PCGen - which I'd actually highly recommend for the situation you're in) I presume that you're loading *all* the sources all the time? There's a preference to 'load sources with character', that you could use otherwise.
        >
        > Party file is for saving a whole group of PC's together, I doubt you'd be using this from what you've described, so this may just be a bug in 5.14 - one of the reasons for upgrading is to get the bugfixes...
        >
        >> when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening
        > That does really prevent you from getting help in time certainly. For such a quick turn around, you can't afford to be editing lst files at that point. But if you're generating 'one off' characters (as appears to the case) then rather than fix the lst file, I'd just add a SAB to add a description for whatever wasnt working properly.
        >
        >> my friends ridicule me for still trying
        > But I guess they are either trawling through a meter of books, or sticking with just basic characters, at least you've got an easy way to get all the info.
        >
        > If 5.14 works, then stick with it for now, but note that you can run two or more versions side by side - so you could have 5.14 with the full source list and 5.16 with a reduced list of just the ones you've fixed or currently need to use.
        > Then you'd browse in 5.14, and as you choose things, load those sources (and fix as necessary) in 5.16. Keep a seperate copy of the datasets for each version to ensure compatibility, and keep a seperate PCGen preferences file for each instance.
        > Hopefully this is what you're already doing?
        >
        >
        > Cheers
        > Dave
        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwllco" <g.a.renting@...> wrote:
        >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
        >>> Greetings,
        >>>
        >>> I'll admit my experience is with migrating from CMP, rather than trying to keep that gamemode working.
        >>>
        >> What's the advantage? Would it not be more work?
        >>
        >>> I'll reiterate a point from the wiki:
        >>>
        >>> You don't need to convert all of it.
        >>>
        >>> As it's only for personal use, you only need to focus on the bits that are actively used in your campaign(s).
        >>>
        >>> So comment out large chunks of it, and focus on the bits you *need*.
        >>> If you can make it into more bitesize chunks, you'll find it far less daunting.
        >>>
        >> The reason I have the CMP files and want to use them, is so that I can browse my options in PCGen. For example sort all the available races by LA or type. To me it's much quicker than going though more than a meter of books.
        >>
        >> If I wanted only those things in there that I am sure to use, I would write it from scratch instead of trying to convert the existing stuff.
        >>
        >> I have over 800 LST files. They work in 5.14 and I find the task of converting them to big and complicated. So I'm sticking with 5.14.
        >>
        >> I just wanted others who might be in the same position as me to know how to run things.
        >>
        >>> I know some of the odd things that have happened to me previously have been due to massive amounts of errors in the lst files causing program errors, I worked around this by being methodical - working on (editing and loading) just one source at a time, and commenting out anything that I wasnt specifically using (or intending to use) and just fixing the errors step by step. Once the errors were gone, then I'd work on the next set (and load *both* sources - slowly build up).
        >>>
        >> I've tried doing that. I gave up. I might be able to go though one LST file in an evening. Too much time gets lost with starting PCGen and building a character to see if something worked, then stopping it again, and trying something else.
        >> One of the things that made me give up, is that I can now make some characters and things look kind of ok, but then I discover a problem in an LST file and on starting the program again and trying to load the character I was working on, I get errors like:
        >> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
        >>
        >> I could ask here what these might mean. But everyone seems focussed on 5.17.x and when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening, so having a discussion that might solve my problem in a week is not much help.
        >>
        >> With 5.14 I can make a character and know I'm done in 30 minutes. With 5.16 I might spend an evening trying to fix an LST file and then still ending up with other weird errors.
        >>
        >> In the mean time my friends ridicule me for still trying to use PCGen. I haven't been able to make a proper character on time for the evening since going to Lion and trying 5.16.
        >>
        >> I'm currently just fed up with the whole thing.
        >>
        >>> Note the wiki suggestion about using the batch file to start PCGen, thus giving you more visibility of load errors, this was a major eureka moment for me. (some errors are flagged *before* you load sources, or even before the GUI starts).
        >>>
        >>> On forum we can only discuss things in a generic context, if you want to discuss more specific issues feel free to contact me directly. I can't promise I can help, but I can try.
        >>>
        >> Thanks for the offer. Currently I am too demotivated to give this another try.
        >>
        >>> Cheers
        >>> Dave
        >>>
        >> Thanks for the reply.
        >>
        >> RW
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Related Lists
        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >
        >
        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >
        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > (for new official data source development)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rogerwllco
        I have fixed all the errors that the converter reported. Most of them weren t hard. The converter has it s own issues, see my earlier post on those. It s when
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 2, 2012
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          I have fixed all the errors that the converter reported. Most of them weren't hard. The converter has it's own issues, see my earlier post on those.

          It's when you go beyond that that things get hard because there are many levels of complexity.

          1) To debug, you often need to start PCGen and build a character, which takes time.
          2) If something doesn't work in 5.16, you need to check if it worked in 5.14
          3) You need to figure out how CMP coded the feature. Quite a few things needed elaborate tricks to make them work. Other things were coded by CMP but never worked properly.
          4) You also need to understand all the variables that are defined elsewhere in any LST if they are used or could be used to make a fix.
          5) You need to search the LST documentation for ways to fix your problem. Assuming the LST documentation is correct.
          6) Once you think you have a fix, you need to run PCGen and try.
          7) You end up referencing the books a lot, errata (which were applied by CMP), to figure out what it should exactly do.
          8) The things you're trying to do might be impossible. The trick is how to determine that?

          I can often fix a few simple things, and then end up spending the rest of the evening wrestling with something hard. Going though all LST files that way will take years. Especially because I only have a few evenings every now and then, and the next time I first need to get back into things.

          I've made some progress in getting most of Core and some of the Complete's in a largely functioning state. But as you add more sources, the complexity and dependencies keep going up. I'm not at the point that I think it's probably easier to code everything from scratch than it is to try and keep fixing the existing stuff. Either way seems as too daunting a task, especially because these were the books that probably were most error-free to begin with. There are datasets that I know have a lot of issues in 5.14, sometimes because the text in the book itself is broken, but there was never an errata on the more recent 3.5 books.

          With 5.14 I know I can make a character in ~30 minutes and nearly always the numbers end up correct. In 5.16 things don't work too often to trust the result and depend on it. Not just the numbers, but the character could be missing things, or it doesn't load at all.

          I do use modified -Xms -Xmx settings in the .plist for additional memory, I do use "load sources with character".

          I think I've done all the right things. I think I'll use 5.14 for as long as I can, and then either give up on PCGen, or start writing from scratch against the SRD dataset.

          I already appreciated CMP for the work they did and now regret how things ended even more (I mostly blame WotC and how the handled the 4e transition).

          As I said, all my fellow players have long since given up on PCGen and ridicule me for still trying. I'm providing input into this discussion mostly so you can keep issues like these in mind going forward developing the program.

          Originally I had in mind to convert to 5.16 and then follow the work on 6.0 and provide feedback. I liked some of the things of the new interface, but also have many ideas for improvement. I got completely bogged down in the conversion and spent all my time on that instead.

          Currently I just can't afford to spend more time even though I appreciate your offers for help. That's why I'm sticking with what works, which for me is 5.14.

          It's the same thing with Firefox. I'm still on 3.6 because extensions I use are no longer supported in the newer versions, or only for Windows.

          I hope this feedback might be useful to you in some way.

          Cheers,

          RW.

          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > Updating the CMP sets*shouldn't* be all that hard, *if* done in a methodical manner and using the
          > tools available.
          >
          > If the sets you have are working fantastic in 5.14, then you should be able to use the converter
          > program available in 5.16 to bring those sets forward with minimal fuss - that was the purpose of
          > the converter - to assist homebrews and older sets to stay current.
          >
          > From my own experience in keeping sets up to date the issues the converter isn't able to handle is
          > improper syntax that 5.14 was silently dropping. With 5.16 we have greater error catching than
          > before. The error catching improves even more as we progress into 6.0.
          >
          > Here is what I recommend - You run the PCGen Converter. It will have a LOG of issues it couldn't
          > handle - look at those and fix them.
          >
          > Load up 5.16, Open you preferences - Find the Input - there should be a check box to select 'Show
          > Detailed Error Report' or something along those lines. There is also the option to turn of
          > deprecated warnings - I'd recommend unselecting that so you can fix the true errors first, then
          > we'll worry about updating the syntax.
          >
          > Next - Load only your core set (PHB) (I prefer to use the bat file to load pcgen which has a dos
          > console box open, but you can simply open the console in pcgen under tools IIRC).
          >
          > Note the Error Messages - If in the dox box select all the text and then hit 'ENTER' - that will
          > save all those errors (I usually open my text editor and place those in their own file - errors.lst.
          >
          > Deprecated/Deprecation Messages should be safe to ignore for now - In fact if you followed the
          > above, you shouldn't be seeing them.
          >
          > Unconstructed References - These are Abilities, Feats, Templates which are being asked for that the
          > program cannot find. It will tell you what Category 'Feat' 'Special Ability' etc, and the name of
          > the offending file. It should also give you the originating file for the call. Though that may be
          > later in 5.17 we got that ability. In most cases you either have a typo (Misspelled name, or someone
          > isn't using the KEY name if it's set). Fix those by either correcting the typo, or in the case it's
          > actually missing, create one.
          >
          > Error Messages are the big issues - You've got syntax usage in a wrong file, or improper usage of
          > syntax. It will usually tell you the file, and the offending syntax, in some cases you'll have one
          > issue generate 2 to 3 warnings, since once one part of the syntax is bad, the rest is also bad.
          > These need to be fixed for a smooth operation.
          >
          > NPEs - NullPointerErrors - Those are the OH CRAP errors that severely broke something - DO NOT
          > CONTINUE TO USE PCGEN if you see one of these guys - any issue you find is NULL & VOID as the
          > program is already broken and unstable. These need to be addressed immediately.
          > Common causes of these guys - Spaces where spaces do not belong; stray symbols in odd places, or
          > really bad syntax. In all cases, you should seek help here as any of the code monkeys and
          > experienced Data Monkeys can usually discern what the cause is and direct you how to fix it.
          >
          > Other weird error messages - You either have a Code Issue, or your syntax is funky. Report it here.
          > Unlike those nasty NPEs, these guys mean you broke something, but the rest of the program should be
          > okay to use (i.e. your broken issue is isolated from the rest of the program).
          >
          > Like I said before, most of your error messages won't be the fault of the converter, it was bad
          > syntax that was never discovered till the program was taught to announce it. It may seem like a
          > mountain, but be methodical - Trust me, most of your errors can be caught at load up without opening
          > any character. I'd say give yourself a couple of hours and most if not all your issues can be fixed.
          >
          > I'm usually available during the week to give guidance and to assist if you require it. Don't give
          > up. If you have a troublesome set, and can't figure it out, SEND ME the error report off-list (my
          > email should be visible in this reply). I'll reply off-list on what steps are required, which
          > usually is enough to get you down the road. If you need more help, well, I don't have any issues
          > debugging sets for people. I try to avoid offering that as a first recourse though - better to teach
          > a man to fish so that he can feed himself every day, than to catch a fish for him and feed him only
          > for a day.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On 3/1/2012 7:34 AM, FerretDave wrote:
          > > Greetings,
          > > Sorry to hear you've become too demotivated to try. There isn't a simple fix I'm afraid (nobody can give you updated datasets, as nice as that would be), the only solution is to update these yourself.
          > >
          > > I see your point on having PCGen as your 'browsing' tool with all the sources included, but that does mean that you're loading up a heck of a lot. I presume you use a script to start pcgen, and have allocated more memory to the process (or is that only needed for windows?)
          > >
          > > The more you load, the slower PCGen gets and the more cross references, typos and duplicates can give errors, but if you need it all, then so be it.
          > > However, consider if you definately do - there are epic & prestige classes, wondrous items and monster races, which can all be ignored if you're only doing low level character generation (for example).
          > >
          > > Migrating from CMP - my reasons are based around being able to use new functionality, such as abilities instead of SAB, and reusing improved code for things like Turning/Rage etc, which then output to the printed character sheet in more definable ways.
          > > CMP reinvented the wheel completely for their datasets, so they had to duplicate the effort in building their own version of the SRD, and while they added better descriptions, these sets are full of typo's and errors, while the PCGen SRD is maintained and corrected.
          > > For example, my Forgotten Realms version(s) of the various Half Elves merely pretty much just mod the standard SRD HalfElf, and add the FR template - no need to rebuild all the features over again.
          > >
          > > This is however, a process that really does need to be done piecemeal, rather than all in one go. It's more work, but pays off long term.
          > >
          > > As a stop-gap, to keep the 'browse' functionality you need, consider duplicating each row in the LST file, comment out the original entry and edit the copy to remove things that may cause errors, and then add SAB to indicate the 'missing' definitions.
          > > Then you can add in just the bits you need as you find them whilst still having the full list browsable.
          > >
          > > For instance, rather than a feat with a massive PRExxx definition, and various calculations and vfeats with cross references (that may not work), change it to:
          > > FeatNameBlah DESC:doessomething SAB:has loads of PRExx and provides vfeat:blah
          > >
          > > Same principle for every LST.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
          > > That implies that the source needed for the character isnt loaded, when you edit, do you change the PCC or just the LST? If you change the PCC you need to 'refresh sources' (or restart PCGen - which I'd actually highly recommend for the situation you're in) I presume that you're loading *all* the sources all the time? There's a preference to 'load sources with character', that you could use otherwise.
          > >
          > > Party file is for saving a whole group of PC's together, I doubt you'd be using this from what you've described, so this may just be a bug in 5.14 - one of the reasons for upgrading is to get the bugfixes...
          > >
          > >> when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening
          > > That does really prevent you from getting help in time certainly. For such a quick turn around, you can't afford to be editing lst files at that point. But if you're generating 'one off' characters (as appears to the case) then rather than fix the lst file, I'd just add a SAB to add a description for whatever wasnt working properly.
          > >
          > >> my friends ridicule me for still trying
          > > But I guess they are either trawling through a meter of books, or sticking with just basic characters, at least you've got an easy way to get all the info.
          > >
          > > If 5.14 works, then stick with it for now, but note that you can run two or more versions side by side - so you could have 5.14 with the full source list and 5.16 with a reduced list of just the ones you've fixed or currently need to use.
          > > Then you'd browse in 5.14, and as you choose things, load those sources (and fix as necessary) in 5.16. Keep a seperate copy of the datasets for each version to ensure compatibility, and keep a seperate PCGen preferences file for each instance.
          > > Hopefully this is what you're already doing?
          > >
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > > Dave
          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwllco" <g.a.renting@> wrote:
          > >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
          > >>> Greetings,
          > >>>
          > >>> I'll admit my experience is with migrating from CMP, rather than trying to keep that gamemode working.
          > >>>
          > >> What's the advantage? Would it not be more work?
          > >>
          > >>> I'll reiterate a point from the wiki:
          > >>>
          > >>> You don't need to convert all of it.
          > >>>
          > >>> As it's only for personal use, you only need to focus on the bits that are actively used in your campaign(s).
          > >>>
          > >>> So comment out large chunks of it, and focus on the bits you *need*.
          > >>> If you can make it into more bitesize chunks, you'll find it far less daunting.
          > >>>
          > >> The reason I have the CMP files and want to use them, is so that I can browse my options in PCGen. For example sort all the available races by LA or type. To me it's much quicker than going though more than a meter of books.
          > >>
          > >> If I wanted only those things in there that I am sure to use, I would write it from scratch instead of trying to convert the existing stuff.
          > >>
          > >> I have over 800 LST files. They work in 5.14 and I find the task of converting them to big and complicated. So I'm sticking with 5.14.
          > >>
          > >> I just wanted others who might be in the same position as me to know how to run things.
          > >>
          > >>> I know some of the odd things that have happened to me previously have been due to massive amounts of errors in the lst files causing program errors, I worked around this by being methodical - working on (editing and loading) just one source at a time, and commenting out anything that I wasnt specifically using (or intending to use) and just fixing the errors step by step. Once the errors were gone, then I'd work on the next set (and load *both* sources - slowly build up).
          > >>>
          > >> I've tried doing that. I gave up. I might be able to go though one LST file in an evening. Too much time gets lost with starting PCGen and building a character to see if something worked, then stopping it again, and trying something else.
          > >> One of the things that made me give up, is that I can now make some characters and things look kind of ok, but then I discover a problem in an LST file and on starting the program again and trying to load the character I was working on, I get errors like:
          > >> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
          > >>
          > >> I could ask here what these might mean. But everyone seems focussed on 5.17.x and when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening, so having a discussion that might solve my problem in a week is not much help.
          > >>
          > >> With 5.14 I can make a character and know I'm done in 30 minutes. With 5.16 I might spend an evening trying to fix an LST file and then still ending up with other weird errors.
          > >>
          > >> In the mean time my friends ridicule me for still trying to use PCGen. I haven't been able to make a proper character on time for the evening since going to Lion and trying 5.16.
          > >>
          > >> I'm currently just fed up with the whole thing.
          > >>
          > >>> Note the wiki suggestion about using the batch file to start PCGen, thus giving you more visibility of load errors, this was a major eureka moment for me. (some errors are flagged *before* you load sources, or even before the GUI starts).
          > >>>
          > >>> On forum we can only discuss things in a generic context, if you want to discuss more specific issues feel free to contact me directly. I can't promise I can help, but I can try.
          > >>>
          > >> Thanks for the offer. Currently I am too demotivated to give this another try.
          > >>
          > >>> Cheers
          > >>> Dave
          > >>>
          > >> Thanks for the reply.
          > >>
          > >> RW
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Related Lists
          > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          > >
          > >
          > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          > >
          > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > > (for new official data source development)
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Andrew
          Hi Roger, Contact me off-list please. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur Unique
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Roger,

            Contact me off-list please.

            On 3/2/2012 7:35 AM, rogerwllco wrote:
            > I have fixed all the errors that the converter reported. Most of them weren't hard. The converter has it's own issues, see my earlier post on those.
            >
            > It's when you go beyond that that things get hard because there are many levels of complexity.
            >
            > 1) To debug, you often need to start PCGen and build a character, which takes time.
            > 2) If something doesn't work in 5.16, you need to check if it worked in 5.14
            > 3) You need to figure out how CMP coded the feature. Quite a few things needed elaborate tricks to make them work. Other things were coded by CMP but never worked properly.
            > 4) You also need to understand all the variables that are defined elsewhere in any LST if they are used or could be used to make a fix.
            > 5) You need to search the LST documentation for ways to fix your problem. Assuming the LST documentation is correct.
            > 6) Once you think you have a fix, you need to run PCGen and try.
            > 7) You end up referencing the books a lot, errata (which were applied by CMP), to figure out what it should exactly do.
            > 8) The things you're trying to do might be impossible. The trick is how to determine that?
            >
            > I can often fix a few simple things, and then end up spending the rest of the evening wrestling with something hard. Going though all LST files that way will take years. Especially because I only have a few evenings every now and then, and the next time I first need to get back into things.
            >
            > I've made some progress in getting most of Core and some of the Complete's in a largely functioning state. But as you add more sources, the complexity and dependencies keep going up. I'm not at the point that I think it's probably easier to code everything from scratch than it is to try and keep fixing the existing stuff. Either way seems as too daunting a task, especially because these were the books that probably were most error-free to begin with. There are datasets that I know have a lot of issues in 5.14, sometimes because the text in the book itself is broken, but there was never an errata on the more recent 3.5 books.
            >
            > With 5.14 I know I can make a character in ~30 minutes and nearly always the numbers end up correct. In 5.16 things don't work too often to trust the result and depend on it. Not just the numbers, but the character could be missing things, or it doesn't load at all.
            >
            > I do use modified -Xms -Xmx settings in the .plist for additional memory, I do use "load sources with character".
            >
            > I think I've done all the right things. I think I'll use 5.14 for as long as I can, and then either give up on PCGen, or start writing from scratch against the SRD dataset.
            >
            > I already appreciated CMP for the work they did and now regret how things ended even more (I mostly blame WotC and how the handled the 4e transition).
            >
            > As I said, all my fellow players have long since given up on PCGen and ridicule me for still trying. I'm providing input into this discussion mostly so you can keep issues like these in mind going forward developing the program.
            >
            > Originally I had in mind to convert to 5.16 and then follow the work on 6.0 and provide feedback. I liked some of the things of the new interface, but also have many ideas for improvement. I got completely bogged down in the conversion and spent all my time on that instead.
            >
            > Currently I just can't afford to spend more time even though I appreciate your offers for help. That's why I'm sticking with what works, which for me is 5.14.
            >
            > It's the same thing with Firefox. I'm still on 3.6 because extensions I use are no longer supported in the newer versions, or only for Windows.
            >
            > I hope this feedback might be useful to you in some way.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > RW.
            >
            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            >> Hi,
            >>
            >> Updating the CMP sets*shouldn't* be all that hard, *if* done in a methodical manner and using the
            >> tools available.
            >>
            >> If the sets you have are working fantastic in 5.14, then you should be able to use the converter
            >> program available in 5.16 to bring those sets forward with minimal fuss - that was the purpose of
            >> the converter - to assist homebrews and older sets to stay current.
            >>
            >> From my own experience in keeping sets up to date the issues the converter isn't able to handle is
            >> improper syntax that 5.14 was silently dropping. With 5.16 we have greater error catching than
            >> before. The error catching improves even more as we progress into 6.0.
            >>
            >> Here is what I recommend - You run the PCGen Converter. It will have a LOG of issues it couldn't
            >> handle - look at those and fix them.
            >>
            >> Load up 5.16, Open you preferences - Find the Input - there should be a check box to select 'Show
            >> Detailed Error Report' or something along those lines. There is also the option to turn of
            >> deprecated warnings - I'd recommend unselecting that so you can fix the true errors first, then
            >> we'll worry about updating the syntax.
            >>
            >> Next - Load only your core set (PHB) (I prefer to use the bat file to load pcgen which has a dos
            >> console box open, but you can simply open the console in pcgen under tools IIRC).
            >>
            >> Note the Error Messages - If in the dox box select all the text and then hit 'ENTER' - that will
            >> save all those errors (I usually open my text editor and place those in their own file - errors.lst.
            >>
            >> Deprecated/Deprecation Messages should be safe to ignore for now - In fact if you followed the
            >> above, you shouldn't be seeing them.
            >>
            >> Unconstructed References - These are Abilities, Feats, Templates which are being asked for that the
            >> program cannot find. It will tell you what Category 'Feat' 'Special Ability' etc, and the name of
            >> the offending file. It should also give you the originating file for the call. Though that may be
            >> later in 5.17 we got that ability. In most cases you either have a typo (Misspelled name, or someone
            >> isn't using the KEY name if it's set). Fix those by either correcting the typo, or in the case it's
            >> actually missing, create one.
            >>
            >> Error Messages are the big issues - You've got syntax usage in a wrong file, or improper usage of
            >> syntax. It will usually tell you the file, and the offending syntax, in some cases you'll have one
            >> issue generate 2 to 3 warnings, since once one part of the syntax is bad, the rest is also bad.
            >> These need to be fixed for a smooth operation.
            >>
            >> NPEs - NullPointerErrors - Those are the OH CRAP errors that severely broke something - DO NOT
            >> CONTINUE TO USE PCGEN if you see one of these guys - any issue you find is NULL & VOID as the
            >> program is already broken and unstable. These need to be addressed immediately.
            >> Common causes of these guys - Spaces where spaces do not belong; stray symbols in odd places, or
            >> really bad syntax. In all cases, you should seek help here as any of the code monkeys and
            >> experienced Data Monkeys can usually discern what the cause is and direct you how to fix it.
            >>
            >> Other weird error messages - You either have a Code Issue, or your syntax is funky. Report it here.
            >> Unlike those nasty NPEs, these guys mean you broke something, but the rest of the program should be
            >> okay to use (i.e. your broken issue is isolated from the rest of the program).
            >>
            >> Like I said before, most of your error messages won't be the fault of the converter, it was bad
            >> syntax that was never discovered till the program was taught to announce it. It may seem like a
            >> mountain, but be methodical - Trust me, most of your errors can be caught at load up without opening
            >> any character. I'd say give yourself a couple of hours and most if not all your issues can be fixed.
            >>
            >> I'm usually available during the week to give guidance and to assist if you require it. Don't give
            >> up. If you have a troublesome set, and can't figure it out, SEND ME the error report off-list (my
            >> email should be visible in this reply). I'll reply off-list on what steps are required, which
            >> usually is enough to get you down the road. If you need more help, well, I don't have any issues
            >> debugging sets for people. I try to avoid offering that as a first recourse though - better to teach
            >> a man to fish so that he can feed himself every day, than to catch a fish for him and feed him only
            >> for a day.
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> On 3/1/2012 7:34 AM, FerretDave wrote:
            >>> Greetings,
            >>> Sorry to hear you've become too demotivated to try. There isn't a simple fix I'm afraid (nobody can give you updated datasets, as nice as that would be), the only solution is to update these yourself.
            >>>
            >>> I see your point on having PCGen as your 'browsing' tool with all the sources included, but that does mean that you're loading up a heck of a lot. I presume you use a script to start pcgen, and have allocated more memory to the process (or is that only needed for windows?)
            >>>
            >>> The more you load, the slower PCGen gets and the more cross references, typos and duplicates can give errors, but if you need it all, then so be it.
            >>> However, consider if you definately do - there are epic & prestige classes, wondrous items and monster races, which can all be ignored if you're only doing low level character generation (for example).
            >>>
            >>> Migrating from CMP - my reasons are based around being able to use new functionality, such as abilities instead of SAB, and reusing improved code for things like Turning/Rage etc, which then output to the printed character sheet in more definable ways.
            >>> CMP reinvented the wheel completely for their datasets, so they had to duplicate the effort in building their own version of the SRD, and while they added better descriptions, these sets are full of typo's and errors, while the PCGen SRD is maintained and corrected.
            >>> For example, my Forgotten Realms version(s) of the various Half Elves merely pretty much just mod the standard SRD HalfElf, and add the FR template - no need to rebuild all the features over again.
            >>>
            >>> This is however, a process that really does need to be done piecemeal, rather than all in one go. It's more work, but pays off long term.
            >>>
            >>> As a stop-gap, to keep the 'browse' functionality you need, consider duplicating each row in the LST file, comment out the original entry and edit the copy to remove things that may cause errors, and then add SAB to indicate the 'missing' definitions.
            >>> Then you can add in just the bits you need as you find them whilst still having the full list browsable.
            >>>
            >>> For instance, rather than a feat with a massive PRExxx definition, and various calculations and vfeats with cross references (that may not work), change it to:
            >>> FeatNameBlah DESC:doessomething SAB:has loads of PRExx and provides vfeat:blah
            >>>
            >>> Same principle for every LST.
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
            >>> That implies that the source needed for the character isnt loaded, when you edit, do you change the PCC or just the LST? If you change the PCC you need to 'refresh sources' (or restart PCGen - which I'd actually highly recommend for the situation you're in) I presume that you're loading *all* the sources all the time? There's a preference to 'load sources with character', that you could use otherwise.
            >>>
            >>> Party file is for saving a whole group of PC's together, I doubt you'd be using this from what you've described, so this may just be a bug in 5.14 - one of the reasons for upgrading is to get the bugfixes...
            >>>
            >>>> when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening
            >>> That does really prevent you from getting help in time certainly. For such a quick turn around, you can't afford to be editing lst files at that point. But if you're generating 'one off' characters (as appears to the case) then rather than fix the lst file, I'd just add a SAB to add a description for whatever wasnt working properly.
            >>>
            >>>> my friends ridicule me for still trying
            >>> But I guess they are either trawling through a meter of books, or sticking with just basic characters, at least you've got an easy way to get all the info.
            >>>
            >>> If 5.14 works, then stick with it for now, but note that you can run two or more versions side by side - so you could have 5.14 with the full source list and 5.16 with a reduced list of just the ones you've fixed or currently need to use.
            >>> Then you'd browse in 5.14, and as you choose things, load those sources (and fix as necessary) in 5.16. Keep a seperate copy of the datasets for each version to ensure compatibility, and keep a seperate PCGen preferences file for each instance.
            >>> Hopefully this is what you're already doing?
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> Cheers
            >>> Dave
            >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwllco" <g.a.renting@> wrote:
            >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "FerretDave" <ferret.griffin@> wrote:
            >>>>> Greetings,
            >>>>>
            >>>>> I'll admit my experience is with migrating from CMP, rather than trying to keep that gamemode working.
            >>>>>
            >>>> What's the advantage? Would it not be more work?
            >>>>
            >>>>> I'll reiterate a point from the wiki:
            >>>>>
            >>>>> You don't need to convert all of it.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> As it's only for personal use, you only need to focus on the bits that are actively used in your campaign(s).
            >>>>>
            >>>>> So comment out large chunks of it, and focus on the bits you *need*.
            >>>>> If you can make it into more bitesize chunks, you'll find it far less daunting.
            >>>>>
            >>>> The reason I have the CMP files and want to use them, is so that I can browse my options in PCGen. For example sort all the available races by LA or type. To me it's much quicker than going though more than a meter of books.
            >>>>
            >>>> If I wanted only those things in there that I am sure to use, I would write it from scratch instead of trying to convert the existing stuff.
            >>>>
            >>>> I have over 800 LST files. They work in 5.14 and I find the task of converting them to big and complicated. So I'm sticking with 5.14.
            >>>>
            >>>> I just wanted others who might be in the same position as me to know how to run things.
            >>>>
            >>>>> I know some of the odd things that have happened to me previously have been due to massive amounts of errors in the lst files causing program errors, I worked around this by being methodical - working on (editing and loading) just one source at a time, and commenting out anything that I wasnt specifically using (or intending to use) and just fixing the errors step by step. Once the errors were gone, then I'd work on the next set (and load *both* sources - slowly build up).
            >>>>>
            >>>> I've tried doing that. I gave up. I might be able to go though one LST file in an evening. Too much time gets lost with starting PCGen and building a character to see if something worked, then stopping it again, and trying something else.
            >>>> One of the things that made me give up, is that I can now make some characters and things look kind of ok, but then I discover a problem in an LST file and on starting the program again and trying to load the character I was working on, I get errors like:
            >>>> "Insufficient campaign information to load character file." "Could not load party PartyFile."
            >>>>
            >>>> I could ask here what these might mean. But everyone seems focussed on 5.17.x and when making a character, it's often for a game the same evening, so having a discussion that might solve my problem in a week is not much help.
            >>>>
            >>>> With 5.14 I can make a character and know I'm done in 30 minutes. With 5.16 I might spend an evening trying to fix an LST file and then still ending up with other weird errors.
            >>>>
            >>>> In the mean time my friends ridicule me for still trying to use PCGen. I haven't been able to make a proper character on time for the evening since going to Lion and trying 5.16.
            >>>>
            >>>> I'm currently just fed up with the whole thing.
            >>>>
            >>>>> Note the wiki suggestion about using the batch file to start PCGen, thus giving you more visibility of load errors, this was a major eureka moment for me. (some errors are flagged *before* you load sources, or even before the GUI starts).
            >>>>>
            >>>>> On forum we can only discuss things in a generic context, if you want to discuss more specific issues feel free to contact me directly. I can't promise I can help, but I can try.
            >>>>>
            >>>> Thanks for the offer. Currently I am too demotivated to give this another try.
            >>>>
            >>>>> Cheers
            >>>>> Dave
            >>>>>
            >>>> Thanks for the reply.
            >>>>
            >>>> RW
            >>> ------------------------------------
            >>>
            >>> Related Lists
            >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>>
            >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >>> (for new official data source development)
            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >> --
            >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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