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Re: [pcgen] Re: PCGen 5.17.10 Dwarf Racial Tratis

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    ... Normally, the description of an alternative trait should be displayed in the lower left pane when it is selected. That text should include the information
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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      On 02.02.2012 15:01, FerretDave wrote:
      > I guess, that selecting the trait doesnt put much detail into the
      > info pane bottom left?
      >
      > If it doesnt, then it can probably be updated to add the detail of
      > which abilities it includes - you probably want to raise a JIRA to
      > request that.

      Normally, the description of an alternative trait should be displayed in
      the lower left pane when it is selected. That text should include the
      information about which default trait it replaces, but I'm not sure
      right now if that is actually included in the data set.

      Regards,
      Stefan.
    • Andrew
      The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal,
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
        people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
        race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
        the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.

        I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
        this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.

        I'll double check the race traits default kits.


        On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
        > I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
        > experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
        > traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
        > "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
        > "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
        > every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
        > traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
        > alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
        > choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
        > re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
        > way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
        >
        > Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
        > the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
        > added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
        > remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
        >
        > I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
        > the advantage of the current set-up.
        >
        > Regards.
        > Stefan.
        >
        >
        > On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
        >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
        >>> what you want.
        >> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
        >>
        >> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
        >>
        >> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
        >>
        >> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
        >>
        >> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
        >>
        >> DS/DL
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Related Lists
        >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >>
        >>
        >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >>
        >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        >> (for new official data source development)
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Related Lists
        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        >
        >
        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >
        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > (for new official data source development)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David R. Bender
        5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits automatically added. Same for human, didn t try others. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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          5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
          automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.

          -- david
          Papa.DRB

          My better half and me (jpg)
          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

          On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
          > The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
          > people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
          > race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
          > the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
          >
          > I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
          > this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
          >
          > I'll double check the race traits default kits.
          >
          >
          > On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
          >> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
          >> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
          >> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
          >> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
          >> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
          >> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
          >> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
          >> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
          >> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
          >> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
          >> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
          >>
          >> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
          >> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
          >> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
          >> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
          >>
          >> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
          >> the advantage of the current set-up.
          >>
          >> Regards.
          >> Stefan.
          >>
          >>
          >> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
          >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
          >>>> what you want.
          >>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
          >>>
          >>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
          >>>
          >>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
          >>>
          >>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
          >>>
          >>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
          >>>
          >>> DS/DL
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ------------------------------------
          >>>
          >>> Related Lists
          >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >>>
          >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          >>> (for new official data source development)
          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Related Lists
          >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
          >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
          >>
          >>
          >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >>
          >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          >> (for new official data source development)
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
        • Andrew
          Thanks David, Yeah, due to different Pools it had to be added manually. I ve since then set up the DEFAULT races to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks David,

            Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
            to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
            to Swap out by KIT.

            We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
            desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
            race.

            This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
            not having to worry about it.

            Does this sound reasonable to everyone?



            On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
            > 5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
            > automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
            >
            > -- david
            > Papa.DRB
            >
            > My better half and me (jpg)
            > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
            >
            > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
            > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
            >
            > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
            > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
            >
            > On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
            >> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
            >> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
            >> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
            >> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
            >>
            >> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
            >> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
            >>
            >> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
            >>
            >>
            >> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
            >>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
            >>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
            >>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
            >>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
            >>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
            >>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
            >>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
            >>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
            >>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
            >>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
            >>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
            >>>
            >>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
            >>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
            >>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
            >>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
            >>>
            >>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
            >>> the advantage of the current set-up.
            >>>
            >>> Regards.
            >>> Stefan.
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
            >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
            >>>>
            >>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
            >>>>> what you want.
            >>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
            >>>>
            >>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
            >>>>
            >>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
            >>>>
            >>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
            >>>>
            >>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
            >>>>
            >>>> DS/DL
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>> ------------------------------------
            >>>>
            >>>> Related Lists
            >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>>>
            >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >>>> (for new official data source development)
            >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>> ------------------------------------
            >>>
            >>> Related Lists
            >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>>
            >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >>> (for new official data source development)
            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David R. Bender
            Works for me... -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg) Love Me
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Works for me...

              -- david
              Papa.DRB

              My better half and me (jpg)
              <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

              Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

              On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
              > Thanks David,
              >
              > Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
              > to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
              > to Swap out by KIT.
              >
              > We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
              > desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
              > race.
              >
              > This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
              > not having to worry about it.
              >
              > Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
              >
              >
              >
              > On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
              >> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
              >> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
              >>
              >> -- david
              >> Papa.DRB
              >>
              >> My better half and me (jpg)
              >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
              >>
              >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
              >>
              >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
              >>
              >> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
              >>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
              >>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
              >>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
              >>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
              >>>
              >>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
              >>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
              >>>
              >>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
              >>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
              >>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
              >>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
              >>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
              >>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
              >>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
              >>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
              >>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
              >>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
              >>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
              >>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
              >>>>
              >>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
              >>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
              >>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
              >>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
              >>>>
              >>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
              >>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
              >>>>
              >>>> Regards.
              >>>> Stefan.
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
              >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
              >>>>>
              >>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
              >>>>>> what you want.
              >>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
              >>>>>
              >>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> DS/DL
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>> ------------------------------------
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Related Lists
              >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>>>>
              >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >>>>> (for new official data source development)
              >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>> ------------------------------------
              >>>>
              >>>> Related Lists
              >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>>>
              >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >>>> (for new official data source development)
              >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Related Lists
              >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>
              >>
              >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>
              >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >> (for new official data source development)
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
            • Andrew
              Hi, For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder David - I ll expect feedback on it. ... -- Andrew
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,

                For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder

                David - I'll expect feedback on it.



                On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                > Works for me...
                >
                > -- david
                > Papa.DRB
                >
                > My better half and me (jpg)
                > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >
                > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                >
                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >
                > On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >> Thanks David,
                >>
                >> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                >> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                >> to Swap out by KIT.
                >>
                >> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                >> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                >> race.
                >>
                >> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                >> not having to worry about it.
                >>
                >> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                >>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                >>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                >>>
                >>> -- david
                >>> Papa.DRB
                >>>
                >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >>>
                >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                >>>
                >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >>>
                >>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                >>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                >>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                >>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                >>>>
                >>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                >>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                >>>>
                >>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                >>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                >>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                >>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                >>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                >>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                >>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                >>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                >>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                >>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                >>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                >>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                >>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                >>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                >>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                >>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Regards.
                >>>>> Stefan.
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                >>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                >>>>>>> what you want.
                >>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> DS/DL
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> Related Lists
                >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Related Lists
                >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>>>
                >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Related Lists
                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>
                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>> (for new official data source development)
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Related Lists
                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >
                >
                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >
                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > (for new official data source development)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David R. Bender
                PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only. Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human. 1) Set Default Racial Traits with single ability -- Works great 2) Set
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.

                  Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.

                  1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                  2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                  Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                  then works with the 2nd selection.

                  The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                  "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats &
                  Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                  trait and select another appropriate one.

                  -- david
                  Papa.DRB

                  My better half and me (jpg)
                  <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                  Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                  Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                  On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                  >
                  > David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                  >> Works for me...
                  >>
                  >> -- david
                  >> Papa.DRB
                  >>
                  >> My better half and me (jpg)
                  >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                  >>
                  >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                  >>
                  >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                  >>
                  >> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>> Thanks David,
                  >>>
                  >>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                  >>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                  >>> to Swap out by KIT.
                  >>>
                  >>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                  >>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                  >>> race.
                  >>>
                  >>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                  >>> not having to worry about it.
                  >>>
                  >>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                  >>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                  >>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> -- david
                  >>>> Papa.DRB
                  >>>>
                  >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                  >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                  >>>>
                  >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                  >>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                  >>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                  >>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                  >>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                  >>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                  >>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                  >>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                  >>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                  >>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                  >>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                  >>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                  >>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                  >>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                  >>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                  >>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                  >>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                  >>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                  >>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                  >>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Regards.
                  >>>>>> Stefan.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                  >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                  >>>>>>>> what you want.
                  >>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> DS/DL
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Related Lists
                  >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Related Lists
                  >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Related Lists
                  >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Related Lists
                  >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>
                  >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >> (for new official data source development)
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                • Andrew
                  Hi, The underlying code is simple: If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit from the kit selector if
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,

                    The underlying code is simple:

                    If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                    from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                    you should get.

                    The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                    correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.

                    Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                    had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)

                    I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                    could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                    CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                    Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).

                    Cheers,

                    On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    > PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                    >
                    > Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                    >
                    > 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                    > 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                    > Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                    > then works with the 2nd selection.
                    >
                    > The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                    > "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats &
                    > Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                    > trait and select another appropriate one.
                    >
                    > -- david
                    > Papa.DRB
                    >
                    > My better half and me (jpg)
                    > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    >
                    > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                    >
                    > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    >
                    > On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >> Hi,
                    >>
                    >> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                    >>
                    >> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    >>> Works for me...
                    >>>
                    >>> -- david
                    >>> Papa.DRB
                    >>>
                    >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                    >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    >>>
                    >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                    >>>
                    >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    >>>
                    >>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >>>> Thanks David,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                    >>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                    >>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                    >>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                    >>>> race.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                    >>>> not having to worry about it.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    >>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                    >>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> -- david
                    >>>>> Papa.DRB
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                    >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                    >>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                    >>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                    >>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                    >>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                    >>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                    >>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                    >>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                    >>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                    >>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                    >>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                    >>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                    >>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                    >>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                    >>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                    >>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                    >>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                    >>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                    >>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                    >>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Regards.
                    >>>>>>> Stefan.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                    >>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                    >>>>>>>>> what you want.
                    >>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> DS/DL
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Related Lists
                    >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Related Lists
                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >
                    >
                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >
                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > (for new official data source development)
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David R. Bender
                    http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better. It was kit that was confusing. -- david
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190

                      2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                      It was "kit" that was confusing.

                      -- david
                      Papa.DRB

                      My better half and me (jpg)
                      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                      On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > The underlying code is simple:
                      >
                      > If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                      > from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                      > you should get.
                      >
                      > The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                      > correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                      >
                      > Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                      > had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                      >
                      > I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                      > could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                      > CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                      > Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                      >> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                      >>
                      >> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                      >>
                      >> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                      >> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                      >> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                      >> then works with the 2nd selection.
                      >>
                      >> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                      >> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                      >> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                      >> trait and select another appropriate one.
                      >>
                      >> -- david
                      >> Papa.DRB
                      >>
                      >> My better half and me (jpg)
                      >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                      >>
                      >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                      >>
                      >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                      >>
                      >> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      >>> Hi,
                      >>>
                      >>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                      >>>
                      >>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                      >>>> Works for me...
                      >>>>
                      >>>> -- david
                      >>>> Papa.DRB
                      >>>>
                      >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                      >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                      >>>>
                      >>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      >>>>> Thanks David,
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                      >>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                      >>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                      >>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                      >>>>> race.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                      >>>>> not having to worry about it.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                      >>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                      >>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> -- david
                      >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                      >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      >>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                      >>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                      >>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                      >>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                      >>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                      >>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                      >>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                      >>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                      >>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                      >>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                      >>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                      >>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                      >>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                      >>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                      >>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                      >>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                      >>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                      >>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                      >>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                      >>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> Regards.
                      >>>>>>>> Stefan.
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                      >>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                      >>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                      >>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Related Lists
                      >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Related Lists
                      >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>
                      >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Related Lists
                      >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>
                      >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >> (for new official data source development)
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                    • Andrew
                      Hi, Completed: At revision: 15971 Enjoy the loud text. ;) ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        Completed: At revision: 15971

                        Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)

                        On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        > http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                        >
                        > 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                        > It was "kit" that was confusing.
                        >
                        > -- david
                        > Papa.DRB
                        >
                        > My better half and me (jpg)
                        > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >
                        > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >
                        > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >
                        > On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >> Hi,
                        >>
                        >> The underlying code is simple:
                        >>
                        >> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                        >> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                        >> you should get.
                        >>
                        >> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                        >> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                        >>
                        >> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                        >> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                        >>
                        >> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                        >> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                        >> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                        >> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                        >>
                        >> Cheers,
                        >>
                        >> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        >>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                        >>>
                        >>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                        >>>
                        >>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                        >>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                        >>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                        >>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                        >>>
                        >>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                        >>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                        >>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                        >>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                        >>>
                        >>> -- david
                        >>> Papa.DRB
                        >>>
                        >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                        >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >>>
                        >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >>>
                        >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >>>
                        >>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >>>> Hi,
                        >>>>
                        >>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                        >>>>
                        >>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        >>>>> Works for me...
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> -- david
                        >>>>> Papa.DRB
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                        >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >>>>>> Thanks David,
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                        >>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                        >>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                        >>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                        >>>>>> race.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                        >>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        >>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                        >>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> -- david
                        >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                        >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                        >>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                        >>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                        >>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                        >>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                        >>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                        >>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                        >>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                        >>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                        >>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                        >>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                        >>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                        >>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                        >>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                        >>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                        >>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                        >>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                        >>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                        >>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> Regards.
                        >>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                        >>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                        >>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>
                        >>> Related Lists
                        >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Related Lists
                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >
                        >
                        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >
                        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > (for new official data source development)
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David R. Bender
                        You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the chooser. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg)
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                          chooser.

                          -- david
                          Papa.DRB

                          My better half and me (jpg)
                          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                          On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > Completed: At revision: 15971
                          >
                          > Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                          >
                          > On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                          >>
                          >> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                          >> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                          >>
                          >> -- david
                          >> Papa.DRB
                          >>
                          >> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>
                          >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>
                          >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>
                          >> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>> Hi,
                          >>>
                          >>> The underlying code is simple:
                          >>>
                          >>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                          >>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                          >>> you should get.
                          >>>
                          >>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                          >>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                          >>>
                          >>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                          >>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                          >>>
                          >>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                          >>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                          >>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                          >>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                          >>>
                          >>> Cheers,
                          >>>
                          >>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                          >>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                          >>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                          >>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                          >>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                          >>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                          >>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> -- david
                          >>>> Papa.DRB
                          >>>>
                          >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>>>> Hi,
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >>>>>> Works for me...
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> -- david
                          >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>>>>>> Thanks David,
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                          >>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                          >>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                          >>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                          >>>>>>> race.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                          >>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                          >>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> -- david
                          >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                          >>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                          >>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                          >>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                          >>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                          >>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                          >>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                          >>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                          >>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                          >>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                          >>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                          >>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                          >>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                          >>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                          >>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                          >>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                          >>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                          >>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                          >>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                          >>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                          >>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                          >>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Related Lists
                          >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Related Lists
                          >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>
                          >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >> (for new official data source development)
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                        • Andrew
                          Are you not seeing the all caps text? The words correspond to the correct selection. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Are you not seeing the all caps text?

                            The words correspond to the correct selection.


                            On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            > You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                            > chooser.
                            >
                            > -- david
                            > Papa.DRB
                            >
                            > My better half and me (jpg)
                            > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >
                            > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >
                            > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >
                            > On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >> Hi,
                            >>
                            >> Completed: At revision: 15971
                            >>
                            >> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                            >>
                            >> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                            >>>
                            >>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                            >>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                            >>>
                            >>> -- david
                            >>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>
                            >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>
                            >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>
                            >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>
                            >>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>> Hi,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> The underlying code is simple:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                            >>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                            >>>> you should get.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                            >>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                            >>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                            >>>>
                            >>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                            >>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                            >>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                            >>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Cheers,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                            >>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                            >>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                            >>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                            >>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                            >>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                            >>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> -- david
                            >>>>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>>>> Hi,
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>>>>>> Works for me...
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> -- david
                            >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                            >>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                            >>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                            >>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                            >>>>>>>> race.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                            >>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                            >>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> -- david
                            >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                            >>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                            >>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                            >>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                            >>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                            >>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                            >>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                            >>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                            >>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                            >>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                            >>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                            >>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                            >>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                            >>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                            >>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                            >>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                            >>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                            >>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                            >>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                            >>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
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                            >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>
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                            >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>
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                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Related Lists
                            >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>> (for new official data source development)
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                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            > ------------------------------------
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                            > (for new official data source development)
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                            >
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                            >

                            --
                            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David R. Bender
                            Yes, I am see all caps. And I can t read, so my last comment was incorrect. *however* create a dwarf with ok to change race - Ok change race to elf with not
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.

                              *however*

                              create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                              change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                              swapping abilities not allowed.
                              Here are the error messages in the console:

                              22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                              encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                              22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                              Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                              22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                              Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                              22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                              Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                              22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                              Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"

                              -- david
                              Papa.DRB

                              My better half and me (jpg)
                              <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                              Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                              On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              > Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                              >
                              > The words correspond to the correct selection.
                              >
                              >
                              > On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                              >> chooser.
                              >>
                              >> -- david
                              >> Papa.DRB
                              >>
                              >> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>
                              >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>
                              >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>
                              >> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>> Hi,
                              >>>
                              >>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                              >>>
                              >>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                              >>>
                              >>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                              >>>>
                              >>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                              >>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> -- david
                              >>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>
                              >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>
                              >>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>> Hi,
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                              >>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                              >>>>> you should get.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                              >>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                              >>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                              >>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                              >>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                              >>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Cheers,
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                              >>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                              >>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                              >>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                              >>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                              >>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                              >>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> -- david
                              >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>>>> Hi,
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>>>>>> Works for me...
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> -- david
                              >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                              >>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                              >>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                              >>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                              >>>>>>>>> race.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                              >>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                              >>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                              >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                              >>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                              >>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                              >>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                              >>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
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                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                              >>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>>
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                              >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
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                              >>>> ------------------------------------
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                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Related Lists
                              >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                              >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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                              >>
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                              >>
                            • Andrew
                              Hi, Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option? I need step by step procedure if I m going to figure out what
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi,

                                Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?

                                I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.


                                On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                > Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                >
                                > *however*
                                >
                                > create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                > change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                > swapping abilities not allowed.
                                > Here are the error messages in the console:
                                >
                                > 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                > encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                > Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                > 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                > Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                >
                                > -- david
                                > Papa.DRB
                                >
                                > My better half and me (jpg)
                                > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >
                                > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >
                                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >
                                > On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                >>
                                >> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                >>> chooser.
                                >>>
                                >>> -- david
                                >>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>
                                >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>
                                >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>
                                >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>
                                >>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>> Hi,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                >>>>
                                >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                >>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> -- david
                                >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>> Hi,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                >>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                >>>>>> you should get.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                >>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                >>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                >>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                >>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                >>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> Cheers,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                >>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                >>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                >>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                >>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                >>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                >>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> -- david
                                >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>>>> Hi,
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> -- david
                                >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                >>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                >>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                >>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                >>>>>>>>>> race.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                >>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                >>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David R. Bender
                                Yea, I hated the it s broke, please fix it bug reports also when I was still working. Let me give a proper one.... 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10 2) Load PF Core
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                  still working. Let me give a proper one....

                                  1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                  2) Load PF Core only
                                  3) File -> New
                                  4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                  5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                  Race Freely)
                                  6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                  7) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                  Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                  on the right side of the page.
                                  8) Go back to Summary page
                                  9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                  10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                  change race) - have to do it twice.
                                  Generates this warnings:
                                  07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                  were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                  07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                  07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                  07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                  07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                  11) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                  traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                  swapped out.

                                  -- david
                                  Papa.DRB

                                  My better half and me (jpg)
                                  <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                  Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                                  Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                                  On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                  >
                                  > I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                  > something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                  > you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                  > And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                  > Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                  >>
                                  >> *however*
                                  >>
                                  >> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                  >> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                  >> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                  >> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                  >>
                                  >> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                  >> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                  >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                  >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                  >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  >> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                  >> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  >> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                  >>
                                  >> -- david
                                  >> Papa.DRB
                                  >>
                                  >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>
                                  >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>
                                  >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>
                                  >> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                  >>>
                                  >>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                  >>>> chooser.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> -- david
                                  >>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>> Hi,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                  >>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>> Hi,
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                  >>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                  >>>>>>> you should get.
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                  >>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                  >>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                  >>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                  >>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                  >>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> Cheers,
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                  >>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                  >>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                  >>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                  >>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                  >>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                  >>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                • Andrew
                                  Hi, So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then. Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi,

                                    So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then.
                                    Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug, since a TEMPLATE CHOOSE should never fire
                                    after being set.

                                    On 2/3/2012 4:57 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    > Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                    > still working. Let me give a proper one....
                                    >
                                    > 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                    > 2) Load PF Core only
                                    > 3) File -> New
                                    > 4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                    > 5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                    > Race Freely)
                                    > 6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                    > 7) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                    > Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                    > on the right side of the page.
                                    > 8) Go back to Summary page
                                    > 9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                    > 10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                    > change race) - have to do it twice.
                                    > Generates this warnings:
                                    > 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                    > were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                    > 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                    > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                    > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                    > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                    > 11) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                    > traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                    > swapped out.
                                    >
                                    > -- david
                                    > Papa.DRB
                                    >
                                    > My better half and me (jpg)
                                    > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >
                                    > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >
                                    > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >
                                    > On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >> Hi,
                                    >>
                                    >> Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                    >>
                                    >> I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                    >> something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                    >> you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                    >> And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                    >> Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> *however*
                                    >>>
                                    >>> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                    >>> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                    >>> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                    >>> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                    >>> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                    >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    >>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                    >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    >>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                    >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    >>> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                    >>> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    >>> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                    >>>
                                    >>> -- david
                                    >>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>
                                    >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>
                                    >>> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                    >>>>> chooser.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                    >>>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                    >>>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                    >>>>>>>> you should get.
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                    >>>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                    >>>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                    >>>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                    >>>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                    >>>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> Cheers,
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                    >>>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                    >>>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                    >>>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                    >>>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                    >>>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                    >>>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David R. Bender
                                    Yes, the CHOOSER is firing up when I change Dwarf to Elf. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg)
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yes, the CHOOSER is firing up when I change Dwarf to Elf.

                                      -- david
                                      Papa.DRB

                                      My better half and me (jpg)
                                      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                                      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                                      On 2/3/2012 10:12 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      > So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then.
                                      > Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug, since a TEMPLATE CHOOSE should never fire
                                      > after being set.
                                      >
                                      > On 2/3/2012 4:57 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >> Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                      >> still working. Let me give a proper one....
                                      >>
                                      >> 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                      >> 2) Load PF Core only
                                      >> 3) File -> New
                                      >> 4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                      >> 5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                      >> Race Freely)
                                      >> 6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                      >> 7) Look at "Feats& Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                      >> Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                      >> on the right side of the page.
                                      >> 8) Go back to Summary page
                                      >> 9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                      >> 10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                      >> change race) - have to do it twice.
                                      >> Generates this warnings:
                                      >> 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                      >> were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                      >> 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                      >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                      >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                      >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                      >> 11) Look at "Feats& Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                      >> traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                      >> swapped out.
                                      >>
                                      >> -- david
                                      >> Papa.DRB
                                      >>
                                      >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>
                                      >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>
                                      >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>
                                      >> On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>> Hi,
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                      >>> something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                      >>> you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                      >>> And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                      >>> Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> *however*
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                      >>>> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                      >>>> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                      >>>> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                      >>>> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                      >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                      >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                      >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                      >>>> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> -- david
                                      >>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                      >>>>>> chooser.
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                      >>>>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                      >>>>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                      >>>>>>>>> you should get.
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                      >>>>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                      >>>>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                      >>>>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                      >>>>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                      >>>>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                      >>>>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                      >>>>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                      >>>>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                      >>>>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                      >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                      >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Related Lists
                                      >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >>>> (for new official data source development)
                                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> Related Lists
                                      >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                      >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >>
                                      >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      >> (for new official data source development)
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                    • James Dempsey
                                      Hi Andrew, I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are: 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who doesn t
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Andrew,

                                        I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:

                                        1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                        doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                        about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                        character they make.
                                        2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                        3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                        raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                        That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                        years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                        good experience.
                                        4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.

                                        Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                        the system..

                                        Cheers
                                        James.

                                        On 3/02/2012 9:40 AM Andrew wrote
                                        > Hi,
                                        >
                                        > For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                        >
                                        > David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >> Works for me...
                                        >>
                                        >> -- david
                                        >> Papa.DRB
                                        >>
                                        >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>
                                        >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>
                                        >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>
                                        >> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>> Thanks David,
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                        >>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                        >>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                        >>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                        >>> race.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                        >>> not having to worry about it.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                        >>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> -- david
                                        >>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                        >>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                        >>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                        >>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                        >>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                        >>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                        >>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                        >>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                        >>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                        >>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                        >>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                        >>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                        >>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                        >>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                        >>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                        >>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                        >>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                        >>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                        >>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                        >>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Regards.
                                        >>>>>> Stefan.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                        >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                        >>>>>>>> what you want.
                                        >>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> DS/DL
                                      • Andrew
                                        Hi James, Okay, what solution do you propose? 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race 2) Have to manually
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi James,

                                          Okay, what solution do you propose?

                                          1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                          2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                          3) Other?

                                          On 2/4/2012 8:27 PM, James Dempsey wrote:
                                          > Hi Andrew,
                                          >
                                          > I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:
                                          >
                                          > 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                          > doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                          > about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                          > character they make.
                                          > 2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                          > 3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                          > raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                          > That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                          > years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                          > good experience.
                                          > 4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.
                                          >
                                          > Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                          > the system..
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          > James.
                                          >
                                          > On 3/02/2012 9:40 AM Andrew wrote
                                          >> Hi,
                                          >>
                                          >> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                          >>
                                          >> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>> Works for me...
                                          >>>
                                          >>> -- david
                                          >>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>
                                          >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>
                                          >>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>> Thanks David,
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                          >>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                          >>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                          >>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                          >>>> race.
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                          >>>> not having to worry about it.
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                          >>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                          >>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                          >>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                          >>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                          >>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                          >>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                          >>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                          >>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                          >>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                          >>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                          >>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                          >>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                          >>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                          >>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                          >>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                          >>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                          >>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                          >>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                          >>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                          >>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> Regards.
                                          >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                          >>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                          >>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Related Lists
                                          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >
                                          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          > (for new official data source development)
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • James Dempsey
                                          Hi Andrew, I think as an interim go back to what we had before: 2. manually selecting either a single default ability, or the individual ability. I d be happy
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Andrew,

                                            I think as an interim go back to what we had before:
                                            2. manually selecting either a single default ability, or the
                                            individual ability.

                                            I'd be happy to brainstorm ways of improving from there. That might be
                                            best done on exp or privately though until a good solution is found.

                                            Cheer,s
                                            James.

                                            On 5/02/2012 4:07 PM Andrew wrote
                                            > Hi James,
                                            >
                                            > Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                            >
                                            > 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                            > 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                            > 3) Other?
                                            >
                                            > On 2/4/2012 8:27 PM, James Dempsey wrote:
                                            >> Hi Andrew,
                                            >>
                                            >> I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:
                                            >>
                                            >> 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                            >> doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                            >> about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                            >> character they make.
                                            >> 2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                            >> 3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                            >> raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                            >> That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                            >> years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                            >> good experience.
                                            >> 4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.
                                            >>
                                            >> Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                            >> the system..
                                            >>
                                            >> Cheers
                                            >> James.
                                            >>
                                          • swiftbrook8
                                            OK, I didn t know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts. As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.

                                              As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.

                                              Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).

                                              -Swiftbrook

                                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi James,
                                              >
                                              > Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                              >
                                              > 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                              > 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                              > 3) Other?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                            • Andrew
                                              Hi, We ve hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I ll be implementing that solution. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi,

                                                We've hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I'll be implementing that solution.

                                                On 2/5/2012 5:36 AM, swiftbrook8 wrote:
                                                > OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.
                                                >
                                                > As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.
                                                >
                                                > Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).
                                                >
                                                > -Swiftbrook
                                                >
                                                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                >> Hi James,
                                                >>
                                                >> Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                >>
                                                >> 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                >> 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                >> 3) Other?
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> --
                                                >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Related Lists
                                                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                                >
                                                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                                > (for new official data source development)
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                --
                                                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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                                              • Andrew
                                                Hi, I ve implemented a working solution for the Racial Traits, and at another request, got the archetypes into their own pools for easier viewing. the latest
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                  Hi,

                                                  I've implemented a working solution for the Racial Traits, and at another request, got the
                                                  archetypes into their own pools for easier viewing.

                                                  the latest stuff is revision: 16085

                                                  Though, as a side affect, this will break any existing characters using archetypes.

                                                  Give it a whirl and let me know. (You can grab the data only if you're not ready to play with the
                                                  new UI).


                                                  On 2/5/2012 1:55 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                                  > Hi,
                                                  >
                                                  > We've hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I'll be implementing that solution.
                                                  >
                                                  > On 2/5/2012 5:36 AM, swiftbrook8 wrote:
                                                  >> OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).
                                                  >>
                                                  >> -Swiftbrook
                                                  >>
                                                  >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                  >>> Hi James,
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                  >>> 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                  >>> 3) Other?
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> --
                                                  >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                  >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                  >> ------------------------------------
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Related Lists
                                                  >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                                  >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                                  >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                                  >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                                  >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                                  >>
                                                  >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                                  >> (for new official data source development)
                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>

                                                  --
                                                  Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                  Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                  Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                  Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                  Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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