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Re: [pcgen] Re: PCGen 5.17.10 Dwarf Racial Tratis

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    I m not really happy with the way it s implemented right now, either. My experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial traits at all are
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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      I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
      experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
      traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
      "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
      "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
      every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
      traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
      alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
      choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
      re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
      way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.

      Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
      the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
      added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
      remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.

      I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
      the advantage of the current set-up.

      Regards.
      Stefan.


      On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
      >
      >> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
      >> what you want.
      >
      > Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
      >
      > You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
      >
      > If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
      >
      > Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
      >
      > Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
      >
      > DS/DL
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Related Lists
      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
      >
      >
      > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      >
      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      > (for new official data source development)
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • FerretDave
      Greetings, I guess, that selecting the trait doesnt put much detail into the info pane bottom left? If it doesnt, then it can probably be updated to add the
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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        Greetings,

        I guess, that selecting the trait doesnt put much detail into the info pane bottom left?

        If it doesnt, then it can probably be updated to add the detail of which abilities it includes - you probably want to raise a JIRA to request that.

        Cheers
        D

        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        >
        >
        > On 2/1/2012 2:54 PM, swiftbrook8 wrote:
        > > Comment
        > >
        > > I trying to build a Dwarf Fighter. I am using some APG alternate racial abilities. I find the system as now implemented a pain in the butt!
        > >
        > > Under Feats & Abilities -> Racial Abilities -> Dwarf Racial Traits (0/8) I can either choose "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" or choose the abilities that I want. The assumption is that I know what the all the default dwarf (and elf, and gnome, etc.) abilities are! I know that I want to trade out "greedy" for another ability. I can choose Greedy, but I don't recall what the rest of the default abilities are. If I choose "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" I can see (and I receive) the list but I am unable to unselect one or more of the abilities to swap out. So my only option is to choose the default, write out the list, unselect the default and then choose what I want. That is just a pain and I expect PCGen to make my life easier not more difficult.
        >
        > You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
        > what you want. This was the only sane way to keep things from getting broken and still working.
        > Before we'd apply a kit by default, but if you selected the wrong race and changed it, well, now you
        > have that race traits and the new race traits, and this kept progressing, and the users couldn't
        > figure out how to fix it. So we scrapped the default kit method, and went with a more elegant
        > solution - You can have one ability that will give you all the abilities, or you can remove it and
        > start swapping in and out the abilities you want.
        >
        > So, we have to code to what makes the most sense for the majority.
        >
        > >
        > > -Swiftbrook
        > >
        > > PCGen 5.17.10
        > > Mode: Pathfinder RPG Standard
        > > Loaded: Core Rulebook, Innersea Primer, APG and PFS Organized Play
        > > FWIW: Windows Vista
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Related Lists
        > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
        > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
        > >
        > >
        > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        > >
        > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > > (for new official data source development)
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Stefan Radermacher
        ... Normally, the description of an alternative trait should be displayed in the lower left pane when it is selected. That text should include the information
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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          On 02.02.2012 15:01, FerretDave wrote:
          > I guess, that selecting the trait doesnt put much detail into the
          > info pane bottom left?
          >
          > If it doesnt, then it can probably be updated to add the detail of
          > which abilities it includes - you probably want to raise a JIRA to
          > request that.

          Normally, the description of an alternative trait should be displayed in
          the lower left pane when it is selected. That text should include the
          information about which default trait it replaces, but I'm not sure
          right now if that is actually included in the data set.

          Regards,
          Stefan.
        • Andrew
          The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal,
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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            The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
            people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
            race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
            the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.

            I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
            this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.

            I'll double check the race traits default kits.


            On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
            > I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
            > experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
            > traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
            > "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
            > "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
            > every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
            > traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
            > alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
            > choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
            > re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
            > way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
            >
            > Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
            > the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
            > added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
            > remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
            >
            > I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
            > the advantage of the current set-up.
            >
            > Regards.
            > Stefan.
            >
            >
            > On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
            >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
            >>> what you want.
            >> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
            >>
            >> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
            >>
            >> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
            >>
            >> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
            >>
            >> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
            >>
            >> DS/DL
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Related Lists
            >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >>
            >>
            >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>
            >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >> (for new official data source development)
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
            >
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David R. Bender
            5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits automatically added. Same for human, didn t try others. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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              5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
              automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.

              -- david
              Papa.DRB

              My better half and me (jpg)
              <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

              Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
              believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

              On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
              > The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
              > people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
              > race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
              > the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
              >
              > I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
              > this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
              >
              > I'll double check the race traits default kits.
              >
              >
              > On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
              >> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
              >> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
              >> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
              >> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
              >> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
              >> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
              >> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
              >> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
              >> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
              >> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
              >> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
              >>
              >> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
              >> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
              >> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
              >> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
              >>
              >> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
              >> the advantage of the current set-up.
              >>
              >> Regards.
              >> Stefan.
              >>
              >>
              >> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
              >>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
              >>>> what you want.
              >>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
              >>>
              >>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
              >>>
              >>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
              >>>
              >>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
              >>>
              >>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
              >>>
              >>> DS/DL
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Related Lists
              >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>>
              >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >>> (for new official data source development)
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Related Lists
              >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
              >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
              >>
              >>
              >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >>
              >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >> (for new official data source development)
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
            • Andrew
              Thanks David, Yeah, due to different Pools it had to be added manually. I ve since then set up the DEFAULT races to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
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                Thanks David,

                Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                to Swap out by KIT.

                We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                race.

                This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                not having to worry about it.

                Does this sound reasonable to everyone?



                On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                > 5.17.10, PF Core & APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                > automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                >
                > -- david
                > Papa.DRB
                >
                > My better half and me (jpg)
                > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                >
                > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                >
                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                >
                > On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                >> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                >> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                >> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                >> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                >>
                >> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                >> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                >>
                >> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                >>
                >>
                >> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                >>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                >>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                >>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                >>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                >>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                >>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                >>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                >>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                >>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                >>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                >>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                >>>
                >>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                >>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                >>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                >>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                >>>
                >>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                >>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                >>>
                >>> Regards.
                >>> Stefan.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                >>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                >>>>> what you want.
                >>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                >>>>
                >>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                >>>>
                >>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                >>>>
                >>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                >>>>
                >>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                >>>>
                >>>> DS/DL
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>
                >>>> Related Lists
                >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>>
                >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>>> (for new official data source development)
                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Related Lists
                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >>>
                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                >>> (for new official data source development)
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Related Lists
                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                >
                >
                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                >
                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > (for new official data source development)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David R. Bender
                Works for me... -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg) Love Me
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Works for me...

                  -- david
                  Papa.DRB

                  My better half and me (jpg)
                  <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                  Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                  Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                  On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  > Thanks David,
                  >
                  > Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                  > to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                  > to Swap out by KIT.
                  >
                  > We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                  > desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                  > race.
                  >
                  > This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                  > not having to worry about it.
                  >
                  > Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                  >> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                  >> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                  >>
                  >> -- david
                  >> Papa.DRB
                  >>
                  >> My better half and me (jpg)
                  >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                  >>
                  >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                  >>
                  >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                  >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                  >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                  >>
                  >> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                  >>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                  >>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                  >>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                  >>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                  >>>
                  >>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                  >>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                  >>>
                  >>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                  >>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                  >>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                  >>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                  >>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                  >>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                  >>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                  >>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                  >>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                  >>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                  >>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                  >>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                  >>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                  >>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                  >>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                  >>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Regards.
                  >>>> Stefan.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                  >>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                  >>>>>> what you want.
                  >>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> DS/DL
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Related Lists
                  >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Related Lists
                  >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>>>
                  >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >>>> (for new official data source development)
                  >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Related Lists
                  >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                  >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >>
                  >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  >> (for new official data source development)
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                • Andrew
                  Hi, For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder David - I ll expect feedback on it. ... -- Andrew
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,

                    For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder

                    David - I'll expect feedback on it.



                    On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    > Works for me...
                    >
                    > -- david
                    > Papa.DRB
                    >
                    > My better half and me (jpg)
                    > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    >
                    > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                    >
                    > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    >
                    > On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >> Thanks David,
                    >>
                    >> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                    >> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                    >> to Swap out by KIT.
                    >>
                    >> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                    >> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                    >> race.
                    >>
                    >> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                    >> not having to worry about it.
                    >>
                    >> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                    >>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                    >>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                    >>>
                    >>> -- david
                    >>> Papa.DRB
                    >>>
                    >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                    >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                    >>>
                    >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                    >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                    >>>
                    >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                    >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                    >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                    >>>
                    >>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                    >>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                    >>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                    >>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                    >>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                    >>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                    >>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                    >>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                    >>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                    >>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                    >>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                    >>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                    >>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                    >>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                    >>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                    >>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                    >>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                    >>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                    >>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                    >>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                    >>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Regards.
                    >>>>> Stefan.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                    >>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                    >>>>>>> what you want.
                    >>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> DS/DL
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Related Lists
                    >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Related Lists
                    >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >>>
                    >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    >>> (for new official data source development)
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Related Lists
                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                    >
                    >
                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >
                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                    > (for new official data source development)
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David R. Bender
                    PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only. Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human. 1) Set Default Racial Traits with single ability -- Works great 2) Set
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.

                      Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.

                      1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                      2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                      Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                      then works with the 2nd selection.

                      The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                      "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats &
                      Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                      trait and select another appropriate one.

                      -- david
                      Papa.DRB

                      My better half and me (jpg)
                      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                      On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                      >
                      > David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                      >> Works for me...
                      >>
                      >> -- david
                      >> Papa.DRB
                      >>
                      >> My better half and me (jpg)
                      >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                      >>
                      >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                      >>
                      >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                      >>
                      >> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      >>> Thanks David,
                      >>>
                      >>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                      >>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                      >>> to Swap out by KIT.
                      >>>
                      >>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                      >>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                      >>> race.
                      >>>
                      >>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                      >>> not having to worry about it.
                      >>>
                      >>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                      >>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                      >>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> -- david
                      >>>> Papa.DRB
                      >>>>
                      >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                      >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                      >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                      >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                      >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                      >>>>
                      >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                      >>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                      >>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                      >>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                      >>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                      >>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                      >>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                      >>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                      >>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                      >>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                      >>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                      >>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                      >>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                      >>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                      >>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                      >>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                      >>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                      >>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                      >>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                      >>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                      >>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Regards.
                      >>>>>> Stefan.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                      >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                      >>>>>>>> what you want.
                      >>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> DS/DL
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> Related Lists
                      >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Related Lists
                      >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Related Lists
                      >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>>>
                      >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >>>> (for new official data source development)
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Related Lists
                      >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                      >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      >>
                      >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      >> (for new official data source development)
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                    • Andrew
                      Hi, The underlying code is simple: If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit from the kit selector if
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        The underlying code is simple:

                        If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                        from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                        you should get.

                        The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                        correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.

                        Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                        had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)

                        I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                        could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                        CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                        Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).

                        Cheers,

                        On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        > PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                        >
                        > Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                        >
                        > 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                        > 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                        > Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                        > then works with the 2nd selection.
                        >
                        > The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                        > "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats &
                        > Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                        > trait and select another appropriate one.
                        >
                        > -- david
                        > Papa.DRB
                        >
                        > My better half and me (jpg)
                        > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >
                        > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >
                        > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >
                        > On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >> Hi,
                        >>
                        >> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                        >>
                        >> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        >>> Works for me...
                        >>>
                        >>> -- david
                        >>> Papa.DRB
                        >>>
                        >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                        >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >>>
                        >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >>>
                        >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >>>
                        >>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >>>> Thanks David,
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                        >>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                        >>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                        >>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                        >>>> race.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                        >>>> not having to worry about it.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                        >>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                        >>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> -- david
                        >>>>> Papa.DRB
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                        >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                        >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                        >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                        >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                        >>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                        >>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                        >>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                        >>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                        >>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                        >>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                        >>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                        >>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                        >>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                        >>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                        >>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                        >>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                        >>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                        >>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                        >>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                        >>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                        >>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                        >>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                        >>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                        >>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Regards.
                        >>>>>>> Stefan.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                        >>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                        >>>>>>>>> what you want.
                        >>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> DS/DL
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Related Lists
                        >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>
                        >>> Related Lists
                        >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >>>
                        >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        >>> (for new official data source development)
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Related Lists
                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                        > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                        >
                        >
                        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                        >
                        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                        > (for new official data source development)
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David R. Bender
                        http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better. It was kit that was confusing. -- david
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190

                          2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                          It was "kit" that was confusing.

                          -- david
                          Papa.DRB

                          My better half and me (jpg)
                          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                          On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > The underlying code is simple:
                          >
                          > If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                          > from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                          > you should get.
                          >
                          > The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                          > correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                          >
                          > Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                          > had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                          >
                          > I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                          > could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                          > CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                          > Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                          >>
                          >> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                          >>
                          >> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                          >> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                          >> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                          >> then works with the 2nd selection.
                          >>
                          >> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                          >> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                          >> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                          >> trait and select another appropriate one.
                          >>
                          >> -- david
                          >> Papa.DRB
                          >>
                          >> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>
                          >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>
                          >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>
                          >> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>> Hi,
                          >>>
                          >>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                          >>>
                          >>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >>>> Works for me...
                          >>>>
                          >>>> -- david
                          >>>> Papa.DRB
                          >>>>
                          >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>>>> Thanks David,
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                          >>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                          >>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                          >>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                          >>>>> race.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                          >>>>> not having to worry about it.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                          >>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                          >>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> -- david
                          >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                          >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                          >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                          >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                          >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                          >>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                          >>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                          >>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                          >>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                          >>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                          >>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                          >>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                          >>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                          >>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                          >>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                          >>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                          >>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                          >>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                          >>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                          >>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                          >>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                          >>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                          >>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                          >>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                          >>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Regards.
                          >>>>>>>> Stefan.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                          >>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                          >>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Related Lists
                          >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Related Lists
                          >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >>>> (for new official data source development)
                          >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Related Lists
                          >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                          >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                          >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                          >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                          >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                          >>
                          >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                          >> (for new official data source development)
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                        • Andrew
                          Hi, Completed: At revision: 15971 Enjoy the loud text. ;) ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi,

                            Completed: At revision: 15971

                            Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)

                            On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            > http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                            >
                            > 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                            > It was "kit" that was confusing.
                            >
                            > -- david
                            > Papa.DRB
                            >
                            > My better half and me (jpg)
                            > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >
                            > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >
                            > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >
                            > On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >> Hi,
                            >>
                            >> The underlying code is simple:
                            >>
                            >> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                            >> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                            >> you should get.
                            >>
                            >> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                            >> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                            >>
                            >> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                            >> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                            >>
                            >> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                            >> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                            >> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                            >> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                            >>
                            >> Cheers,
                            >>
                            >> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                            >>>
                            >>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                            >>>
                            >>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                            >>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                            >>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                            >>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                            >>>
                            >>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                            >>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                            >>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                            >>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                            >>>
                            >>> -- david
                            >>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>
                            >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>
                            >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>
                            >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>
                            >>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>> Hi,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                            >>>>
                            >>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>>>> Works for me...
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> -- david
                            >>>>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>>>> Thanks David,
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                            >>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                            >>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                            >>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                            >>>>>> race.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                            >>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                            >>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                            >>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> -- david
                            >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                            >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                            >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                            >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                            >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                            >>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                            >>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                            >>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                            >>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                            >>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                            >>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                            >>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                            >>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                            >>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                            >>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                            >>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                            >>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                            >>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                            >>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                            >>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                            >>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                            >>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                            >>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                            >>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Regards.
                            >>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                            >>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                            >>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>>>>
                            >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Related Lists
                            >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Related Lists
                            >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >>>
                            >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            >>> (for new official data source development)
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Related Lists
                            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                            >
                            >
                            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                            >
                            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                            > (for new official data source development)
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David R. Bender
                            You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the chooser. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg)
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                              chooser.

                              -- david
                              Papa.DRB

                              My better half and me (jpg)
                              <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                              Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                              On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > Completed: At revision: 15971
                              >
                              > Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                              >
                              > On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                              >>
                              >> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                              >> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                              >>
                              >> -- david
                              >> Papa.DRB
                              >>
                              >> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>
                              >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>
                              >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>
                              >> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>> Hi,
                              >>>
                              >>> The underlying code is simple:
                              >>>
                              >>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                              >>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                              >>> you should get.
                              >>>
                              >>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                              >>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                              >>>
                              >>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                              >>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                              >>>
                              >>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                              >>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                              >>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                              >>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                              >>>
                              >>> Cheers,
                              >>>
                              >>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                              >>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                              >>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                              >>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                              >>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                              >>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                              >>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> -- david
                              >>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>
                              >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>
                              >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>> Hi,
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>>>> Works for me...
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> -- david
                              >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>>>> Thanks David,
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                              >>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                              >>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                              >>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                              >>>>>>> race.
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                              >>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                              >>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> -- david
                              >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                              >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                              >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                              >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                              >>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                              >>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                              >>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                              >>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                              >>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                              >>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                              >>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                              >>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                              >>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                              >>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                              >>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                              >>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                              >>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                              >>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                              >>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                              >>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                              >>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                              >>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                              >>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                              >>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                              >>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>>>>
                              >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> Related Lists
                              >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>>>>
                              >>>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Related Lists
                              >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>>>
                              >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >>>> (for new official data source development)
                              >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Related Lists
                              >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                              >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                              >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >>
                              >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                              >> (for new official data source development)
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                            • Andrew
                              Are you not seeing the all caps text? The words correspond to the correct selection. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Are you not seeing the all caps text?

                                The words correspond to the correct selection.


                                On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                > You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                > chooser.
                                >
                                > -- david
                                > Papa.DRB
                                >
                                > My better half and me (jpg)
                                > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >
                                > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >
                                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >
                                > On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >> Hi,
                                >>
                                >> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                >>
                                >> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                >>
                                >> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                >>>
                                >>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                >>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                >>>
                                >>> -- david
                                >>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>
                                >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>
                                >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>
                                >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>
                                >>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>> Hi,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                >>>>
                                >>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                >>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                >>>> you should get.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                >>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                >>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                >>>>
                                >>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                >>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                >>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                >>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Cheers,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                >>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                >>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                >>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                >>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                >>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                >>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> -- david
                                >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>> Hi,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>>>> Works for me...
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> -- david
                                >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                >>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                >>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                >>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                >>>>>>>> race.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                >>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                >>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> -- david
                                >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                >>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                >>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                >>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                >>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                >>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                >>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                >>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                >>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                >>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                >>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                >>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                >>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                >>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                >>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                >>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                >>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                >>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                >>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>>>>
                                >>>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> Related Lists
                                >>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>
                                >>> Related Lists
                                >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                >>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                >>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                >>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >>>
                                >>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                >>> (for new official data source development)
                                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Related Lists
                                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                >
                                >
                                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >
                                > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                > (for new official data source development)
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David R. Bender
                                Yes, I am see all caps. And I can t read, so my last comment was incorrect. *however* create a dwarf with ok to change race - Ok change race to elf with not
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.

                                  *however*

                                  create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                  change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                  swapping abilities not allowed.
                                  Here are the error messages in the console:

                                  22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                  encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                  22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                  22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                  22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                  22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                  Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"

                                  -- david
                                  Papa.DRB

                                  My better half and me (jpg)
                                  <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                  Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                                  Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                                  On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  > Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                  >
                                  > The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                  >> chooser.
                                  >>
                                  >> -- david
                                  >> Papa.DRB
                                  >>
                                  >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>
                                  >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>
                                  >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>
                                  >> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>> Hi,
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                  >>>
                                  >>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                  >>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> -- david
                                  >>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>> Hi,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                  >>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                  >>>>> you should get.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                  >>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                  >>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                  >>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                  >>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                  >>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Cheers,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                  >>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                  >>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                  >>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                  >>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                  >>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                  >>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>> Hi,
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                  >>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                  >>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                  >>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                  >>>>>>>>> race.
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                  >>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                  >>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                  >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                  >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                  >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Related Lists
                                  >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >>>> (for new official data source development)
                                  >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >> ------------------------------------
                                  >>
                                  >> Related Lists
                                  >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                  >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>
                                  >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  >> (for new official data source development)
                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                • Andrew
                                  Hi, Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option? I need step by step procedure if I m going to figure out what
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 2, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi,

                                    Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?

                                    I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                    something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                    you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                    And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                    Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.


                                    On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    > Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                    >
                                    > *however*
                                    >
                                    > create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                    > change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                    > swapping abilities not allowed.
                                    > Here are the error messages in the console:
                                    >
                                    > 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                    > encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                    > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                    > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                    > 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                    > 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                    > Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                    >
                                    > -- david
                                    > Papa.DRB
                                    >
                                    > My better half and me (jpg)
                                    > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >
                                    > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >
                                    > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >
                                    > On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                    >>
                                    >> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                    >>> chooser.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> -- david
                                    >>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>
                                    >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>
                                    >>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                    >>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                    >>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                    >>>>>> you should get.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                    >>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                    >>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                    >>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                    >>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                    >>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Cheers,
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                    >>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                    >>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                    >>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                    >>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                    >>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                    >>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>> Hi,
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                    >>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                    >>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                    >>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                    >>>>>>>>>> race.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                    >>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David R. Bender
                                    Yea, I hated the it s broke, please fix it bug reports also when I was still working. Let me give a proper one.... 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10 2) Load PF Core
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                      still working. Let me give a proper one....

                                      1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                      2) Load PF Core only
                                      3) File -> New
                                      4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                      5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                      Race Freely)
                                      6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                      7) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                      Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                      on the right side of the page.
                                      8) Go back to Summary page
                                      9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                      10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                      change race) - have to do it twice.
                                      Generates this warnings:
                                      07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                      were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                      07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                      07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                      07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                      07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                      11) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                      traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                      swapped out.

                                      -- david
                                      Papa.DRB

                                      My better half and me (jpg)
                                      <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                      Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                                      Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                                      On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      > Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                      >
                                      > I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                      > something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                      > you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                      > And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                      > Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                      >>
                                      >> *however*
                                      >>
                                      >> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                      >> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                      >> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                      >> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                      >>
                                      >> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                      >> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                      >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                      >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                      >> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                      >> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                      >> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                      >>
                                      >> -- david
                                      >> Papa.DRB
                                      >>
                                      >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>
                                      >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>
                                      >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>
                                      >> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                      >>>> chooser.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> -- david
                                      >>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                      >>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                      >>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                      >>>>>>> you should get.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                      >>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                      >>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                      >>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                      >>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                      >>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Cheers,
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                      >>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                      >>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                      >>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                      >>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                      >>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                      >>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
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                                    • Andrew
                                      Hi, So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then. Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi,

                                        So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then.
                                        Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug, since a TEMPLATE CHOOSE should never fire
                                        after being set.

                                        On 2/3/2012 4:57 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        > Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                        > still working. Let me give a proper one....
                                        >
                                        > 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                        > 2) Load PF Core only
                                        > 3) File -> New
                                        > 4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                        > 5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                        > Race Freely)
                                        > 6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                        > 7) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                        > Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                        > on the right side of the page.
                                        > 8) Go back to Summary page
                                        > 9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                        > 10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                        > change race) - have to do it twice.
                                        > Generates this warnings:
                                        > 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                        > were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                        > 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                        > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        > Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                        > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        > Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                        > 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        > Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                        > 11) Look at "Feats & Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                        > traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                        > swapped out.
                                        >
                                        > -- david
                                        > Papa.DRB
                                        >
                                        > My better half and me (jpg)
                                        > <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >
                                        > Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >
                                        > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        > For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        > believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >
                                        > On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >> Hi,
                                        >>
                                        >> Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                        >>
                                        >> I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                        >> something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                        >> you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                        >> And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                        >> Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> *however*
                                        >>>
                                        >>> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                        >>> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                        >>> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                        >>> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                        >>>
                                        >>> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                        >>> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                        >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        >>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                        >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        >>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                        >>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        >>> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                        >>> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                        >>> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                        >>>
                                        >>> -- david
                                        >>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>
                                        >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>
                                        >>> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                        >>>>> chooser.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> -- david
                                        >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>>> Hi,
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                        >>>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> -- david
                                        >>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>> Hi,
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                        >>>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                        >>>>>>>> you should get.
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                        >>>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                        >>>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                        >>>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                        >>>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                        >>>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> Cheers,
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                        >>>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                        >>>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                        >>>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                        >>>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                        >>>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                        >>>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> -- david
                                        >>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                        >>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                        >>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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                                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • David R. Bender
                                        Yes, the CHOOSER is firing up when I change Dwarf to Elf. -- david Papa.DRB My better half and me (jpg)
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 3, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Yes, the CHOOSER is firing up when I change Dwarf to Elf.

                                          -- david
                                          Papa.DRB

                                          My better half and me (jpg)
                                          <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>

                                          Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>

                                          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)

                                          On 2/3/2012 10:12 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                          > Hi,
                                          >
                                          > So the CHOOSER is popping up by itself with race changes?!?!?! Someone broke Template Code then.
                                          > Let me verify, and if so this is a high priority bug, since a TEMPLATE CHOOSE should never fire
                                          > after being set.
                                          >
                                          > On 2/3/2012 4:57 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >> Yea, I hated the "it's broke, please fix it" bug reports also when I was
                                          >> still working. Let me give a proper one....
                                          >>
                                          >> 1) Start up PCGen 5.17.10
                                          >> 2) Load PF Core only
                                          >> 3) File -> New
                                          >> 4) Alignment -> NG, Race -> Dwarf (tab)
                                          >> 5) Chooser -> Select 2nd line (Default racial traits xxx - May Change
                                          >> Race Freely)
                                          >> 6) Add level of fighter, ignore name, stats, free clothing, etc.
                                          >> 7) Look at "Feats& Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 1.Grant
                                          >> Default Racial Traits is in black and the 8 dwarf traits in yellow are
                                          >> on the right side of the page.
                                          >> 8) Go back to Summary page
                                          >> 9) Change race to Elf (tab)
                                          >> 10) Select 1st line - (Preselect with swap out capability - do not
                                          >> change race) - have to do it twice.
                                          >> Generates this warnings:
                                          >> 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings
                                          >> were encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                          >> 07:54:40.187 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                          >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                          >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                          >> 07:54:40.188 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                          >> 11) Look at "Feats& Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" and the 4 elven
                                          >> traits in yellow are on the right side of the page and can not be
                                          >> swapped out.
                                          >>
                                          >> -- david
                                          >> Papa.DRB
                                          >>
                                          >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>
                                          >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>
                                          >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>
                                          >> On 2/3/2012 12:46 AM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>> Hi,
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Wait a sec, you select a dwarf, select the change race dealio, how did you change the option?
                                          >>>
                                          >>> I need step by step procedure if I'm going to figure out what the issue is. Cause unless you did
                                          >>> something like say, removed the templates, and then changed race prompting another choice pop up,
                                          >>> you shouldn't have gotten a pop up. '
                                          >>> And the error message is valid, you don't have the points, they're being used by the Default Racial
                                          >>> Traits ability that already is granting all the racial traits, I bet if you looked you'd see that.
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> On 2/2/2012 7:24 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>> Yes, I am see all caps. And I can't read, so my last comment was incorrect.
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> *however*
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> create a dwarf with "ok to change race" - Ok
                                          >>>> change race to elf with "not ok to change race, but can swap" - Not ok,
                                          >>>> swapping abilities not allowed.
                                          >>>> Here are the error messages in the console:
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> 22:22:54.82 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:340 The following warnings were
                                          >>>> encountered when applying the kit Elf Racial Trait Default
                                          >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Immunities ~ Elf"
                                          >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Elven Magic ~ Elf"
                                          >>>> 22:22:54.83 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Weapon Familiarity ~ Elf"
                                          >>>> 22:22:54.84 WARNING AWT-EventQueue-0 Kit:345 ABILITY: Not enough Elf
                                          >>>> Racial Traits available to take "Keen Senses ~ Elf"
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> -- david
                                          >>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> On 2/2/2012 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>> Are you not seeing the all caps text?
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> The words correspond to the correct selection.
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:59 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>>> You have the text backwards, ie. switch the two lines of text on the
                                          >>>>>> chooser.
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 8:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>>> Hi,
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> Completed: At revision: 15971
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> Enjoy the "loud" text. ;)
                                          >>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:31 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>> http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1190
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> 2 options is fine. The choice of words (in caps below) is much better.
                                          >>>>>>>> It was "kit" that was confusing.
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 7:47 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> The underlying code is simple:
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> If you select the one that says Kit it is applying the kit, in fact, you can select the same kit
                                          >>>>>>>>> from the kit selector if you really wanted. - It'll preselect the race and grant the same abilities
                                          >>>>>>>>> you should get.
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> The other one selects the Default Single Ability and adds it to the racial traits pool of the
                                          >>>>>>>>> correct race, so you can remove it and add all the selections.
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> Why it's throwing the same choice again though is annoying and sounds like a bug to me. I think I
                                          >>>>>>>>> had the same thing happen to me as well. So, confirmed code bug. (Can you open a tracker David?)
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> I can name those Choices something else, but for now, how they work was the best method to test. I
                                          >>>>>>>>> could rename the kit one to (PRESELECT ALL THE RACIAL ABILITIES WITH SWAP OUT CAPABILITY - DO NOT
                                          >>>>>>>>> CHANGE RACE!) and then (Default Racial Traits that will keep the Race Default for any Race - May
                                          >>>>>>>>> Change Race Freely) and perhaps a third option (Do Not Add Racial Traits - Manually Add Racial Traits).
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
                                          >>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:58 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen 5.17.10, loaded PF Core only.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Tried Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf and Human.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> 1) "Set Default Racial Traits with single ability" -- Works great
                                          >>>>>>>>>> 2) "Set Default Racial Traits with ability to swap out via KIT" --
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Selecting the first time, forces a 2nd popup with the same choices and
                                          >>>>>>>>>> then works with the 2nd selection.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> The KIT seems to be misleading, as there are no Kits, in the sense of
                                          >>>>>>>>>> "Create Monster/Add Kit" button on main page, but looking under "Feats&
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Abilities" -> "Racial Abilities" I can remove the particular racial
                                          >>>>>>>>>> trait and select another appropriate one.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:40 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Works for me...
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks David,
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> race.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> not having to worry about it.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- david
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Papa.DRB
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>>>>
                                          >>>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Related Lists
                                          >>>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >>>> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >>>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >>>> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >>>> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >>>> (for new official data source development)
                                          >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >> ------------------------------------
                                          >>
                                          >> Related Lists
                                          >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                          >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                          >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                          >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                          >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                          >>
                                          >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                          >> (for new official data source development)
                                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                        • James Dempsey
                                          Hi Andrew, I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are: 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who doesn t
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Andrew,

                                            I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:

                                            1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                            doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                            about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                            character they make.
                                            2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                            3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                            raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                            That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                            years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                            good experience.
                                            4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.

                                            Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                            the system..

                                            Cheers
                                            James.

                                            On 3/02/2012 9:40 AM Andrew wrote
                                            > Hi,
                                            >
                                            > For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                            >
                                            > David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                            >> Works for me...
                                            >>
                                            >> -- david
                                            >> Papa.DRB
                                            >>
                                            >> My better half and me (jpg)
                                            >> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                            >>
                                            >> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                            >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                            >>
                                            >> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                            >> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                            >> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                            >>
                                            >> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                            >>> Thanks David,
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                            >>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                            >>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                            >>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                            >>> race.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                            >>> not having to worry about it.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                            >>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                            >>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> -- david
                                            >>>> Papa.DRB
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                            >>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                            >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                            >>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                            >>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                            >>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                            >>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                            >>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                            >>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                            >>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                            >>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                            >>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                            >>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                            >>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                            >>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                            >>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                            >>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                            >>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                            >>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                            >>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                            >>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                            >>>>>>
                                            >>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                            >>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                            >>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                            >>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                            >>>>>>
                                            >>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                            >>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                            >>>>>>
                                            >>>>>> Regards.
                                            >>>>>> Stefan.
                                            >>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>
                                            >>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                            >>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                            >>>>>>>> what you want.
                                            >>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                            >>>>>>>
                                            >>>>>>> DS/DL
                                          • Andrew
                                            Hi James, Okay, what solution do you propose? 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race 2) Have to manually
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi James,

                                              Okay, what solution do you propose?

                                              1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                              2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                              3) Other?

                                              On 2/4/2012 8:27 PM, James Dempsey wrote:
                                              > Hi Andrew,
                                              >
                                              > I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:
                                              >
                                              > 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                              > doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                              > about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                              > character they make.
                                              > 2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                              > 3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                              > raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                              > That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                              > years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                              > good experience.
                                              > 4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.
                                              >
                                              > Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                              > the system..
                                              >
                                              > Cheers
                                              > James.
                                              >
                                              > On 3/02/2012 9:40 AM Andrew wrote
                                              >> Hi,
                                              >>
                                              >> For those that want to test the new implementation grab this Update to rev 15963 all core folder
                                              >>
                                              >> David - I'll expect feedback on it.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> On 2/2/2012 12:47 PM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                              >>> Works for me...
                                              >>>
                                              >>> -- david
                                              >>> Papa.DRB
                                              >>>
                                              >>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                              >>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                              >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                              >>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                              >>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                              >>>
                                              >>> On 2/2/2012 3:32 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                              >>>> Thanks David,
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> Yeah, due to different "Pools" it had to be added manually. I've since then set up the DEFAULT races
                                              >>>> to have a POP UP selection - Choose whether to go with a Default by Single Ability, or the Ability
                                              >>>> to Swap out by KIT.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> We won't have the multiple race traits adding, and as a TEMPLATE, the user can remove it if they
                                              >>>> desire. However, those using the kit will have to manually remove all the traits if they change the
                                              >>>> race.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> This seems to be the best workable compromise - giving you a selection at the beginning, and then
                                              >>>> not having to worry about it.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> Does this sound reasonable to everyone?
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> On 2/2/2012 11:54 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                              >>>>> 5.17.10, PF Core& APG, create a dwarf fighter. No Racial traits
                                              >>>>> automatically added. Same for human, didn't try others.
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> -- david
                                              >>>>> Papa.DRB
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> My better half and me (jpg)
                                              >>>>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/102726903532570043857/Family#slideshow/5533056948910114610>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> Love Me If You Can by Toby Keith (video)
                                              >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu7jGYzS_A>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                              >>>>> For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't
                                              >>>>> believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase 1888-1985)
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>>>> On 2/2/2012 2:39 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                              >>>>>> The reason it got changed was simple. We kept getting reports of wrong race traits showing up due to
                                              >>>>>> people changing the race. Kit adds the Traits as normal, which is great, but when you change the
                                              >>>>>> race, the ability pool went into negative numbers (-8 I think if a dwarf) which effectively hides
                                              >>>>>> the ability pool from view. Leaving ALL the racial traits of the race chosen before in place.
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> I'll look at the set up, but DEFAULT Racial Traits should be getting applied automatically, at least
                                              >>>>>> this was the case last time I made a pathfinder character. And I can fix the name, that is easy.
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> I'll double check the race traits default kits.
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> On 2/2/2012 5:39 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                              >>>>>>> I'm not really happy with the way it's implemented right now, either. My
                                              >>>>>>> experience is, when I select the race for a new character, no racial
                                              >>>>>>> traits at all are selected. I have to go to the race tab and select the
                                              >>>>>>> "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" (should read "traits" not
                                              >>>>>>> "abilities", by the way). I find it cumbersome to have to do this for
                                              >>>>>>> every character, and I have to do this even if the alternate racial
                                              >>>>>>> traits from the APG aren't even loaded. When I do want to select an
                                              >>>>>>> alternate trait, however, I can't simply deselect an individual trait to
                                              >>>>>>> choose another one, I have to remove the Grant Default ability and
                                              >>>>>>> re-add all the other ones - quite a lot if working on a dwarf, by the
                                              >>>>>>> way. If find this behavious unnecessarily complicated.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Originally I had implemented the alternate racial traits in a way that
                                              >>>>>>> the default traits would be assigned with a kit, and these kits were
                                              >>>>>>> added automatically when the race was selected. It was then possible to
                                              >>>>>>> remove an individual trait to choose a replacement.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> I don't really know why the change was made or what is supposed to be
                                              >>>>>>> the advantage of the current set-up.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> Regards.
                                              >>>>>>> Stefan.
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> On 02.02.2012 14:18, Distant Scholar wrote:
                                              >>>>>>>> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew<drew0500@...> wrote:
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>>> You can select the default kit and it'll apply the default abilities if you like and then swap out
                                              >>>>>>>>> what you want.
                                              >>>>>>>> Unless this got changed in 5.17.10, this is unfortunately incorrect. Or, perhaps, so unclear that I can't figure it out.
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>> You said "default kit"; if you mean the PCGen object called a Kit, I can't find any such Kit for a dwarf in the Core Rulebook set (or APG).
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>> If you mean the "1. Grant Default Racial Abilities" racial ability, it doesn't work that way, at least, with a dwarf in Pathfinder; I haven't checked any other races. Instead, if you select the default kit, you cannot swap out, say, Greed; the arrow is grayed out, as is the right-click menu choice, and double-clicking doesn't work either.
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>> Currently, if you want a slight modification of the default package, you need to select all abilities individually, which is unfortunate.
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>> Switching to Type/Name mode, and knowing to ignore DefaultRacial, DwarfRacialDefault, DwarfRacialTrait, RacialTraits, and SaveBonus, (and knowing that there's a Type/Name mode to switch to in the first place, and how to do it) can help, but there's no way I know of to get all the standard abilities, then swap out the ones you don't want.
                                              >>>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>> DS/DL
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Related Lists
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                                              >
                                              >
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                                              >
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                                              >
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                                              --
                                              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • James Dempsey
                                              Hi Andrew, I think as an interim go back to what we had before: 2. manually selecting either a single default ability, or the individual ability. I d be happy
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 4, 2012
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                                                Hi Andrew,

                                                I think as an interim go back to what we had before:
                                                2. manually selecting either a single default ability, or the
                                                individual ability.

                                                I'd be happy to brainstorm ways of improving from there. That might be
                                                best done on exp or privately though until a good solution is found.

                                                Cheer,s
                                                James.

                                                On 5/02/2012 4:07 PM Andrew wrote
                                                > Hi James,
                                                >
                                                > Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                >
                                                > 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                > 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                > 3) Other?
                                                >
                                                > On 2/4/2012 8:27 PM, James Dempsey wrote:
                                                >> Hi Andrew,
                                                >>
                                                >> I think this change needs to be backed out. My reasons for this are:
                                                >>
                                                >> 1. The choices offered are pretty much incomprehensible to someone who
                                                >> doesn't know the issue at hand. Most people don't have a reason to care
                                                >> about this and should not be asked to make a decision on it for every
                                                >> character they make.
                                                >> 2. The all-caps text makes it harder to read not easier.
                                                >> 3. The code is not ready for this LST to be in. I understand you have
                                                >> raised a bug report, but currently I get three displays of the chooser.
                                                >> That's very confusing for me and I've been coding and using pcgen for 10
                                                >> years. The code and lst teams have to work together to give the user a
                                                >> good experience.
                                                >> 4. Our long term strategy is to reduce pop-ups. This is counter to that.
                                                >>
                                                >> Overall, this is the sort of change that scares people away from using
                                                >> the system..
                                                >>
                                                >> Cheers
                                                >> James.
                                                >>
                                              • swiftbrook8
                                                OK, I didn t know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts. As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                  OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.

                                                  As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.

                                                  Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).

                                                  -Swiftbrook

                                                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi James,
                                                  >
                                                  > Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                  >
                                                  > 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                  > 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                  > 3) Other?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                  > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                • Andrew
                                                  Hi, We ve hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I ll be implementing that solution. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                    Hi,

                                                    We've hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I'll be implementing that solution.

                                                    On 2/5/2012 5:36 AM, swiftbrook8 wrote:
                                                    > OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.
                                                    >
                                                    > As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.
                                                    >
                                                    > Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).
                                                    >
                                                    > -Swiftbrook
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                    >> Hi James,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                    >> 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                    >> 3) Other?
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> --
                                                    >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                    >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Related Lists
                                                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                                    > PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                                    > PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                                    >
                                                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                                    > (for new official data source development)
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    --
                                                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Andrew
                                                    Hi, I ve implemented a working solution for the Racial Traits, and at another request, got the archetypes into their own pools for easier viewing. the latest
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Feb 5, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hi,

                                                      I've implemented a working solution for the Racial Traits, and at another request, got the
                                                      archetypes into their own pools for easier viewing.

                                                      the latest stuff is revision: 16085

                                                      Though, as a side affect, this will break any existing characters using archetypes.

                                                      Give it a whirl and let me know. (You can grab the data only if you're not ready to play with the
                                                      new UI).


                                                      On 2/5/2012 1:55 PM, Andrew wrote:
                                                      > Hi,
                                                      >
                                                      > We've hit upon a workable solution over on the _exp mailing list. I'll be implementing that solution.
                                                      >
                                                      > On 2/5/2012 5:36 AM, swiftbrook8 wrote:
                                                      >> OK, I didn't know I was opening such a can of worms when I posted my thoughts.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> As one not familiar with the OS programming side, I ask is it possible when a race is selected that PCGen assign the default racial traits? So if a user picks a Dwarf, changes it's racial traits and then picks Elf, PCGen will change the race to Elf, clear all previous racial traits and assign the default Dwarf traits.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Oh, and for brevity, if it's not possible, you don't need to explain why :-).
                                                      >>
                                                      >> -Swiftbrook
                                                      >>
                                                      >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                      >>> Hi James,
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> Okay, what solution do you propose?
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> 1) Kit grants all the racial choices - but the lists get bug reports if they change the race
                                                      >>> 2) Have to manually add the choices, or take a single ability to grant the defaults
                                                      >>> 3) Other?
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> --
                                                      >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                      >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Related Lists
                                                      >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                                      >> PCGen's Mailing Lists and Links: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Mailing_Lists_and_PCGen_Links
                                                      >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                                      >> PCGen's JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                                      >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                                      >>
                                                      >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                                      >> (for new official data source development)
                                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>

                                                      --
                                                      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


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