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Re: psheet generation

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  • Geoff
    ... PCGen. ... Sure, but I d like to see this change made this year. :) Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might as well be wholesale
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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      --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:

      > This standard PCGen way needs to go away though.
      >
      > GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against
      PCGen.
      >
      > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI

      Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)

      Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
      as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
    • Geoff
      ... with ... PCG). ... and a ... That could be good too...I d be happy to comment on the screenshot.
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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        --- In pcgen@y..., lonejedi70@h... wrote:
        > How about this:
        >
        > A new "Export" tab in the same tab group after "Campaign" and "DM
        > Tools" but before the PC tabs. It will replace the "Preview" tab
        > from each character. It will have a table (or some GUI thing)
        with
        > all the PCs listed, and an associated template (stored in the
        PCG).
        > You can update the selected template, or export that PC. In a
        > separate area (of the same panel) is a party template selection
        and a
        > single export button.
        >
        > I can make up a screen shot if that would help any...
        >

        That could be good too...I'd be happy to comment on the screenshot.
      • Arcady
        incremental is the only way to go to get it actually done.With each new feature or GUI change making it into each new release.Perhaps a dual solution. Keep
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2001
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          incremental is the only way to go to get it actually done.

          With each new feature or GUI change making it into each new release.

          Perhaps a dual solution. Keep preview around... but put in standard GUI
          tools under the File pulldown.

          PCGen is not an easy app to use. I've no problems with it. But I regularly
          sit and watch my players stare at it with blank expressions trying to figure
          out how to do the most simple of things...

          It's the first time since the 80s I've ever had non technical people for
          players and frankly; it's a real eye opener.


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Geoff [mailto:geoff@...]
          > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 4:45 PM
          > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [pcgen] Re: psheet generation
          >
          >
          > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > This standard PCGen way needs to go away though.
          > >
          > > GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against
          > PCGen.
          > >
          > > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI
          >
          > Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)
          >
          > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
          > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >


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        • Brass Tilde
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          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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            > -----Original Message-----

            > --- In pcgen@y..., "Geoff" <geoff@s...> wrote:
            > [snip]
            > > Putting the party sheet generation in the Party sub-menu makes GUI
            > > sense, but would mean a painful amount of menu navigation each time
            > > you wanted to do something. I would rather see a tab under "DM
            > > Tools" (Preview? :) which let me pre-select a few different templates
            > > (since I generally use more than one), file locations, and generate each
            > > with a single click.

            > From: lonejedi70@... [mailto:lonejedi70@...]
            >
            > How about this:
            >
            > A new "Export" tab in the same tab group after "Campaign" and "DM
            > Tools" but before the PC tabs. It will replace the "Preview" tab
            > from each character. It will have a table (or some GUI thing) with
            > all the PCs listed, and an associated template (stored in the PCG).
            >

            Tabs are for information, with only enough interaction to allow meaningful
            editing of that information. Menus are for functionalility, especially
            input/output functionality. Preview isn't information, it's functionality,
            so it belongs on a menu.

            Properly implemented, it would mean no more "painful" in terms of navigation
            that the current system (and more familiar to most users), which involves
            macro movements of the mouse, instead of the short movements that properly
            designed menus entail. For a new character, or one that you are previewing
            or exporting for the first time, menus would be *fewer* mouse strokes.

            As it stands now, you have to select the "Preview" tab, click the "Select a
            Template" button, then choose a template from a popup box (and change the
            template type, if you want the party sheet), then press the "Export To"
            button, select a file name from another pop up box, then press the "Export"
            or "Preview in Browser" button. Note how far your hand moves in the various
            steps of this operation, from one end of the screen to the other. This
            means means that your eyes are also moving. It's easier to lose track of
            where the next operation is when your hand and eye have to make large
            movements, forcing you to have to look at it more closely.

            Aside from the movement, I could almost live with this for characters alone,
            as inconvenient as it is. I will admit that I sometimes lose my place on
            the preview tab, but I eventually get there. If you want a party sheet,
            however, you need to be on the preview tab of one of the characters
            (non-intuitive all by itself), and you have to take all of these steps
            *every* time you want to make a party sheet when you make a change to one of
            the characters.

            Contrast that to a context sensitive "Export" menu option, File->Export (two
            clicks, but they are physically close together, which is much easier for
            most users), select a template (the type of which is already the default
            because of where you started from, and which will be remembered the next
            time you start from the same place), then select an output file name (the
            name and location of which are also saved and used the next time you start
            from the same place). If the file navigation boxes are properly placed,
            i.e. near the top left of the window near the File menu, this involves
            micro-movements of the mouse, rather than macro-movements.

            I realize this breaks with the current design of PCGen, but I see that as a
            Good Thing, not something to be avoided. It's more in keeping with how most
            GUI programs are designed, regardless of platform, and that makes it easier
            for someone who's new to the program to get up to speed.

            I'll admit that my arguments may seem esoteric to some people, but I spent a
            few months putting some inteface guidelines together for the company for
            which I work. Making people move their mouse all over the screen, and
            navigate through multiple dialogs to accomplish *one* thing is a big no-no.
            Tabs may be easier to implement that menus, I don't know, not having gotten
            that far in Java yet, but adding a new tab for functionality is a step
            backward, not forward, as far as the interface is concerned. IMNECTHO.

            Brass


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          • Brass Tilde
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            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: arcady [mailto:arcady0@...]
              >
              > > > An 'Export As...' option under that tab would take you to the
              > > > preview window as a popup.
              > >
              > > I don't quite understand what you mean here?
              >
              > Try out your browser's "Save As..." button.

              Exactly. With just one more step.

              >
              > So we have 3 styles of export:
              >

              If Java menus can be manipulated at run-time (and IIRC they can be), then
              you don't even need two sets of menu options. It can be context sensitive,
              and execute the appropriate functionality depending on whether you are on a
              character or one of the party screens.


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            • Brass Tilde
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              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Geoff [mailto:geoff@...]
                > >
                > > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI
                >
                > Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)
                >
                > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
                > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.

                Why? Incremental changes are usually easier to deal with and test reliably,
                whereas wholesale changes can be a bear to debug.

                Brass


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              • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                ... reliably, ... I agree with this sentiment - sometimes changes have to be wholesale in nature, but that s rarely a necessity unless we re moving around
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                  > >
                  > > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
                  > > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
                  >
                  > Why? Incremental changes are usually easier to deal with and test
                  reliably,
                  > whereas wholesale changes can be a bear to debug.
                  >
                  > Brass

                  I agree with this sentiment - sometimes changes have to be wholesale
                  in nature, but that's rarely a necessity unless we're moving around
                  large pieces of functionality. Just cleaning up a tab can be done
                  individually, and deciding if we want to use a tab and/or menuing to
                  generate PCGen's output doesn't impact much of the gui so it can be
                  done in a fairly isolated manner as well. I like the idea of the
                  preview tab becoming a kind of automatically-updated statblock that
                  updates itself everytime you view the tab. I would like to be able
                  to generate output files in the least number of clicks possible -
                  which may mean using a combination of menus & tabs.

                  -Bryan
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