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Re: psheet generation

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  • arcady
    ... Try out your browser s Save As... button. Sort of like that. But with Export To... So we have 3 styles of export: File +---------+ ... +---------+ ...
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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      > > An 'Export As...' option under that tab would take you to the
      > preview
      > > window as a popup.
      >
      > I don't quite understand what you mean here?

      Try out your browser's "Save As..." button.

      Sort of like that.

      But with "Export To..."

      So we have 3 styles of export:

      File
      +---------+
      |CHARACTER|
      +---------+
      |export |
      |export to|
      |export as|
      +---------+
      | PARTY |
      +---------+
      |export |
      |export to|
      |export as|
      +---------+

      Export:
      The simple 'export party' and 'export character' would just do it
      automaticly to the template defined in your preferences or saved with
      the party.pcp or character.pcg. The filename for these would be
      automaticly based on the filename of the .pcg or .pcp

      Export To:
      it would open up a popup that would let you do what preivew does now:

      choose a template, choose a filename, and export.
      All as one popup screen

      Template:[____________] [Browse]
      Filename:[____________] [Browse]
      [Export] [Cancel]


      A third option "Export As..." uses your default templates but has you
      choose a filename to save to...

      Filename:[____________] [Browse]
      [Export] [Cancel]

      This third option might not be needed...



      A preferences option could add a section for setting your default
      templates. Which are saved to the relevant party.pcp and character.pcg
      files.
    • arcady
      ... breaks ... I ... This standard PCGen way needs to go away though. GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against PCGen. PCGen needs to
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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        > The standard GUI method would seem to be a menu item, but that
        breaks
        > the pcgen-specific paradigm that all character-specific information
        > is in the section underneath that character's tab. For that reason,
        I
        > think keeping the character sheet generation on the Preview tab (and
        > making a couple changes) makes more sense.


        This standard PCGen way needs to go away though.

        GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against PCGen.

        PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI
      • Eric Statz
        I for one would prefer it stay the way it is. I use the preview tab to test new features, actually using the poor qualtiry html renderer. just my $0.02. -Eric
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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          I for one would prefer it stay the way it is.

          I use the preview tab to test new features, actually using the poor
          qualtiry html renderer.

          just my $0.02.

          -Eric
        • Geoff
          ... PCGen. ... Sure, but I d like to see this change made this year. :) Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might as well be wholesale
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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            --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:

            > This standard PCGen way needs to go away though.
            >
            > GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against
            PCGen.
            >
            > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI

            Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)

            Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
            as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
          • Geoff
            ... with ... PCG). ... and a ... That could be good too...I d be happy to comment on the screenshot.
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 31, 2001
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              --- In pcgen@y..., lonejedi70@h... wrote:
              > How about this:
              >
              > A new "Export" tab in the same tab group after "Campaign" and "DM
              > Tools" but before the PC tabs. It will replace the "Preview" tab
              > from each character. It will have a table (or some GUI thing)
              with
              > all the PCs listed, and an associated template (stored in the
              PCG).
              > You can update the selected template, or export that PC. In a
              > separate area (of the same panel) is a party template selection
              and a
              > single export button.
              >
              > I can make up a screen shot if that would help any...
              >

              That could be good too...I'd be happy to comment on the screenshot.
            • Arcady
              incremental is the only way to go to get it actually done.With each new feature or GUI change making it into each new release.Perhaps a dual solution. Keep
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 1, 2001
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                incremental is the only way to go to get it actually done.

                With each new feature or GUI change making it into each new release.

                Perhaps a dual solution. Keep preview around... but put in standard GUI
                tools under the File pulldown.

                PCGen is not an easy app to use. I've no problems with it. But I regularly
                sit and watch my players stare at it with blank expressions trying to figure
                out how to do the most simple of things...

                It's the first time since the 80s I've ever had non technical people for
                players and frankly; it's a real eye opener.


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Geoff [mailto:geoff@...]
                > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 4:45 PM
                > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [pcgen] Re: psheet generation
                >
                >
                > --- In pcgen@y..., "arcady" <arcady0@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > This standard PCGen way needs to go away though.
                > >
                > > GUI complaints are the number one complaint out there against
                > PCGen.
                > >
                > > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI
                >
                > Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)
                >
                > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
                > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >


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              • Brass Tilde
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                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                  > -----Original Message-----

                  > --- In pcgen@y..., "Geoff" <geoff@s...> wrote:
                  > [snip]
                  > > Putting the party sheet generation in the Party sub-menu makes GUI
                  > > sense, but would mean a painful amount of menu navigation each time
                  > > you wanted to do something. I would rather see a tab under "DM
                  > > Tools" (Preview? :) which let me pre-select a few different templates
                  > > (since I generally use more than one), file locations, and generate each
                  > > with a single click.

                  > From: lonejedi70@... [mailto:lonejedi70@...]
                  >
                  > How about this:
                  >
                  > A new "Export" tab in the same tab group after "Campaign" and "DM
                  > Tools" but before the PC tabs. It will replace the "Preview" tab
                  > from each character. It will have a table (or some GUI thing) with
                  > all the PCs listed, and an associated template (stored in the PCG).
                  >

                  Tabs are for information, with only enough interaction to allow meaningful
                  editing of that information. Menus are for functionalility, especially
                  input/output functionality. Preview isn't information, it's functionality,
                  so it belongs on a menu.

                  Properly implemented, it would mean no more "painful" in terms of navigation
                  that the current system (and more familiar to most users), which involves
                  macro movements of the mouse, instead of the short movements that properly
                  designed menus entail. For a new character, or one that you are previewing
                  or exporting for the first time, menus would be *fewer* mouse strokes.

                  As it stands now, you have to select the "Preview" tab, click the "Select a
                  Template" button, then choose a template from a popup box (and change the
                  template type, if you want the party sheet), then press the "Export To"
                  button, select a file name from another pop up box, then press the "Export"
                  or "Preview in Browser" button. Note how far your hand moves in the various
                  steps of this operation, from one end of the screen to the other. This
                  means means that your eyes are also moving. It's easier to lose track of
                  where the next operation is when your hand and eye have to make large
                  movements, forcing you to have to look at it more closely.

                  Aside from the movement, I could almost live with this for characters alone,
                  as inconvenient as it is. I will admit that I sometimes lose my place on
                  the preview tab, but I eventually get there. If you want a party sheet,
                  however, you need to be on the preview tab of one of the characters
                  (non-intuitive all by itself), and you have to take all of these steps
                  *every* time you want to make a party sheet when you make a change to one of
                  the characters.

                  Contrast that to a context sensitive "Export" menu option, File->Export (two
                  clicks, but they are physically close together, which is much easier for
                  most users), select a template (the type of which is already the default
                  because of where you started from, and which will be remembered the next
                  time you start from the same place), then select an output file name (the
                  name and location of which are also saved and used the next time you start
                  from the same place). If the file navigation boxes are properly placed,
                  i.e. near the top left of the window near the File menu, this involves
                  micro-movements of the mouse, rather than macro-movements.

                  I realize this breaks with the current design of PCGen, but I see that as a
                  Good Thing, not something to be avoided. It's more in keeping with how most
                  GUI programs are designed, regardless of platform, and that makes it easier
                  for someone who's new to the program to get up to speed.

                  I'll admit that my arguments may seem esoteric to some people, but I spent a
                  few months putting some inteface guidelines together for the company for
                  which I work. Making people move their mouse all over the screen, and
                  navigate through multiple dialogs to accomplish *one* thing is a big no-no.
                  Tabs may be easier to implement that menus, I don't know, not having gotten
                  that far in Java yet, but adding a new tab for functionality is a step
                  backward, not forward, as far as the interface is concerned. IMNECTHO.

                  Brass


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                • Brass Tilde
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                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: arcady [mailto:arcady0@...]
                    >
                    > > > An 'Export As...' option under that tab would take you to the
                    > > > preview window as a popup.
                    > >
                    > > I don't quite understand what you mean here?
                    >
                    > Try out your browser's "Save As..." button.

                    Exactly. With just one more step.

                    >
                    > So we have 3 styles of export:
                    >

                    If Java menus can be manipulated at run-time (and IIRC they can be), then
                    you don't even need two sets of menu options. It can be context sensitive,
                    and execute the appropriate functionality depending on whether you are on a
                    character or one of the party screens.


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                  • Brass Tilde
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                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Geoff [mailto:geoff@...]
                      > >
                      > > PCGen needs to transition over to a more standard GUI
                      >
                      > Sure, but I'd like to see this change made this year. :)
                      >
                      > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
                      > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.

                      Why? Incremental changes are usually easier to deal with and test reliably,
                      whereas wholesale changes can be a bear to debug.

                      Brass


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                    • merton_monk@yahoo.com
                      ... reliably, ... I agree with this sentiment - sometimes changes have to be wholesale in nature, but that s rarely a necessity unless we re moving around
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 2, 2001
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                        > >
                        > > Seriously...at some point there will be a GUI change, but it might
                        > > as well be wholesale rather than incremental.
                        >
                        > Why? Incremental changes are usually easier to deal with and test
                        reliably,
                        > whereas wholesale changes can be a bear to debug.
                        >
                        > Brass

                        I agree with this sentiment - sometimes changes have to be wholesale
                        in nature, but that's rarely a necessity unless we're moving around
                        large pieces of functionality. Just cleaning up a tab can be done
                        individually, and deciding if we want to use a tab and/or menuing to
                        generate PCGen's output doesn't impact much of the gui so it can be
                        done in a fairly isolated manner as well. I like the idea of the
                        preview tab becoming a kind of automatically-updated statblock that
                        updates itself everytime you view the tab. I would like to be able
                        to generate output files in the least number of clicks possible -
                        which may mean using a combination of menus & tabs.

                        -Bryan
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