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Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?

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  • Andrew Wilson
    One thing I do recommend, if you re using vim. Set the tab stop to 6 characters. Now you might think, that s insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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      One thing I do recommend, if you're using vim. Set the tab stop to 6
      characters.
      Now you might think, "that's insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!"
      and
      mostly you'd be right. However! all the other data peeps are using 6
      character
      tabs and if you arn't then you can't see how they've lined up the various
      sections
      of their LST files.

      I used to think this didn't matter, then I'd open a LST file and think this
      is a bit
      of a mess. Then I'd set the tab stop to six characters and suddenly it's
      all
      neat and lined up.
      andrew
      On 6 June 2011 09:04, Henk Slaaf <henk@...> wrote:

      > >
      > > Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I
      > find
      > > other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
      > > because they are so different from vim. And there's another point
      > speaking
      > > against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated
      > windows).
      >
      >
      > I'll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use
      > vim.
      > The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in
      > LST files and create a clean diff.
      >
      >
      > One of the problems with a lot of current commits is that the diff is very
      > large because of the scores of lines where only the whitespace has changed.
      > This makes merging very difficult and makes reviewing near-impossble.
      >
      > Editing with vertical spacing creates very, very clean diffs and gives us a
      > proper reviewing view.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Henk
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Related Lists
      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
      > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > PCGen's Online Docs:
      > http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
      > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs:
      > http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
      >
      > PCGen List File Help:
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
      >
      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
      > (for new official data source development)
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew
      Hi, Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6 then. All I know it s been that standard for as long as I ve been around. ... --
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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        Hi,

        Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6 then.

        All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.



        On 6/6/2011 3:54 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
        > One thing I do recommend, if you're using vim. Set the tab stop to 6
        > characters.
        > Now you might think, "that's insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!"
        > and
        > mostly you'd be right. However! all the other data peeps are using 6
        > character
        > tabs and if you arn't then you can't see how they've lined up the various
        > sections
        > of their LST files.
        >
        > I used to think this didn't matter, then I'd open a LST file and think this
        > is a bit
        > of a mess. Then I'd set the tab stop to six characters and suddenly it's
        > all
        > neat and lined up.
        > andrew
        > On 6 June 2011 09:04, Henk Slaaf <henk@...> wrote:
        >
        >>> Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I
        >> find
        >>> other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
        >>> because they are so different from vim. And there's another point
        >> speaking
        >>> against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated
        >> windows).
        >>
        >>
        >> I'll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use
        >> vim.
        >> The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in
        >> LST files and create a clean diff.
        >>
        >>
        >> One of the problems with a lot of current commits is that the diff is very
        >> large because of the scores of lines where only the whitespace has changed.
        >> This makes merging very difficult and makes reviewing near-impossble.
        >>
        >> Editing with vertical spacing creates very, very clean diffs and gives us a
        >> proper reviewing view.
        >>
        >> Thanks,
        >>
        >> Henk
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Related Lists
        >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        >> PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
        >> PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
        >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        >> PCGen's Online Docs:
        >> http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
        >> PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs:
        >> http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
        >>
        >> PCGen List File Help:
        >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >>
        >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        >> (for new official data source development)
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Related Lists
        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
        > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
        > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
        >
        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >
        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > (for new official data source development)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew Wilson
        ... Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this wasn t Barak — hi Barak /waves). Generally, changing the tab character from 8
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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          On 6 June 2011 12:00, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

          > Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6
          > then.


          Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully
          this wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

          Generally, changing the tab character from 8 spaces is a complete
          no no. In certain quarters the fact that I'm suggesting it here clearly
          labels me a heretic. Next thing you know it be crack whores in the
          street and drive by shootings.


          > All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.


          It also predates me.

          andrew


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Barak
          ... ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well. If I had to guess I d lay it at Tir s feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_ As for why, my bet would be
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
            > wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

            ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.

            If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_

            As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.

            Barak
          • Andrew
            Hi, It shouldn t be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and change a couple of webpages/docs. ... -- Andrew
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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              Hi,

              It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
              change a couple of webpages/docs.


              On 6/6/2011 6:25 AM, Barak wrote:
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
              >> wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).
              > ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.
              >
              > If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_
              >
              > As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.
              >
              > Barak
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Related Lists
              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
              > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
              > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
              > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
              >
              > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >
              > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              > (for new official data source development)
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • FerretDave
              Greetings, Yes, familiarity (through work) is the biggie, the other thing is, as you say, vim works anywhere...even on some of the more obscure OS s there s
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                Greetings,
                Yes, familiarity (through work) is the biggie, the other thing is, as you say, vim works anywhere...even on some of the more obscure OS's there's still a copy of 'vi' at least.
                It probably does boil down to touch typing too - using Vim I rarely take my hands off the keyboard.

                I did try notepad++, and I think I couldnt get the syntax colouring to work for pcc & lst files, so thought there was no real gain to be had, and moved back.
                I'll try it again if I can figure the syntax colouring.

                Cheers
                Dave
                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I don't know why the previous poster disagreed with Notepad++ - I find
                > > it useful for almost all plain-text purposes.
                >
                > Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I find
                > other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
                > because they are so different from vim. And there's another point speaking
                > against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated windows).
                >
                > Susan
                >
              • FerretDave
                Greetings, It is (or at least was) common practice to reduce the tabstop to less than 8, to save space in program code - each loop or conditional is indented
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                  Greetings,

                  It is (or at least was) common practice to reduce the tabstop to less than 8, to 'save space' in program code - each loop or conditional is indented to make it more readable, and 8 spaces for a tab can be excessive once you've got a lot of nested code. 4 or 6 is fairly common, and I'd guess that the originator of this setting just used the standard that they used for their other code.

                  With list files, there's no reason to use any particular value, we're resigned to having to scroll through the long lines anyway, so I'd vote for putting it back to a standard setting of 8.

                  Cheers
                  D

                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
                  > change a couple of webpages/docs.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 6/6/2011 6:25 AM, Barak wrote:
                  > >> -----Original Message-----
                  > >> Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
                  > >> wasn't Barak â€" hi Barak /waves).
                  > > ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.
                  > >
                  > > If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_
                  > >
                  > > As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.
                  > >
                  > > Barak
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Related Lists
                  > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                  > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                  > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                  > > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                  > >
                  > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  > >
                  > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > > (for new official data source development)
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • FerretDave
                  Its also advised to actually note any nonstandard tab stops as a comment at the start of the file :-)
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                    Its also advised to actually note any nonstandard tab stops as a comment at the start of the file :-)

                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
                    > change a couple of webpages/docs.
                  • Ainvar G
                    Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still normal, to be
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
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                      Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still normal, to be honest.

                      AinvarG



                      ________________________________
                      From: Andrew Wilson <andrew@...>
                      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 6:27 AM
                      Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?


                       
                      On 6 June 2011 12:00, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

                      > Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6
                      > then.

                      Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully
                      this wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

                      Generally, changing the tab character from 8 spaces is a complete
                      no no. In certain quarters the fact that I'm suggesting it here clearly
                      labels me a heretic. Next thing you know it be crack whores in the
                      street and drive by shootings.

                      > All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.

                      It also predates me.

                      andrew

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Susan Dittmar
                      ... Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next tab-stop.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 16, 2011
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                        Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                        > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                        > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                        > normal, to be honest.

                        Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                        pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                        tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                        Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                        my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.

                        Susan
                      • FerretDave
                        Greetings, I m sure when I learnt to touchtype* my manual typewriter had settable tabstops, you could realign them to any column you required... That s the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 16, 2011
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                          Greetings,
                          I'm sure when I learnt to touchtype* my manual typewriter had settable tabstops, you could realign them to any column you required...

                          That's the point I guess, a tab is to line up the text into a 'convenient' position, it certainly wasnt a fixed number globally, and wasnt even a fixed number for each tab on a line! (tab stops set at column 6,20,28,36 & 50 would do your paragraph indent and data into a table)

                          however we probably digress... set tabs at whatever looks good, and just be consistent, and indicate what size you use.

                          *Touchtyping - I'd consider that a prerequisite to 'enjoy' using vi :-) A mouse is unnecessary.

                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                          > > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                          > > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                          > > normal, to be honest.
                          >
                          > Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                          > pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                          > tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                          > Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                          > my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.
                          >
                          > Susan
                          >
                        • Ainvar G
                          Making me think way back now, aren t you? If memory serves, we had two choices of fonts to work with - Elite and Pica. I believe Elite was 12 characters per
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
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                            Making me think way back now, aren't you?

                            If memory serves, we had two choices of fonts to work with - Elite and Pica. I believe Elite was 12 characters per inch while Pica was 10 cpi.  We generally used Elite.  Thinking back, I don't remember if we were supposed to be setting the tab stops at the half-inch or at 6 characters, but it was effectively the same.

                            But as usual, you are correct - the tabs were defined by the tab stops on the typewriters -- the practice in our coursework happened to work out to be 6 characters, so it's always been the norm in the back of my mind, I guess.

                            And for the record, I'm not knocking vi in any fashion -- I'm not a professional developer, but it's a virtual guarantee that will spend an hour or two using it every day I'm at work. I prefer it to the alternatives that the whippersnappers keep showing me. ;-)



                            ________________________________
                            From: Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...>
                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:38 AM
                            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?


                             
                            Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                            > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                            > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                            > normal, to be honest.

                            Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                            pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                            tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                            Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                            my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.

                            Susan




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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