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Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?

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  • Susan Dittmar
    ... Well, as he wrote he s using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I find other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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      > I don't know why the previous poster disagreed with Notepad++ - I find
      > it useful for almost all plain-text purposes.

      Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I find
      other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
      because they are so different from vim. And there's another point speaking
      against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated windows).

      Susan
    • Henk Slaaf
      ... I ll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use vim. The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in LST
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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        >
        > Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I find
        > other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
        > because they are so different from vim. And there's another point speaking
        > against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated windows).


        I'll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use vim.
        The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in
        LST files and create a clean diff.


        One of the problems with a lot of current commits is that the diff is very
        large because of the scores of lines where only the whitespace has changed.
        This makes merging very difficult and makes reviewing near-impossble.

        Editing with vertical spacing creates very, very clean diffs and gives us a
        proper reviewing view.

        Thanks,

        Henk


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew Wilson
        One thing I do recommend, if you re using vim. Set the tab stop to 6 characters. Now you might think, that s insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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          One thing I do recommend, if you're using vim. Set the tab stop to 6
          characters.
          Now you might think, "that's insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!"
          and
          mostly you'd be right. However! all the other data peeps are using 6
          character
          tabs and if you arn't then you can't see how they've lined up the various
          sections
          of their LST files.

          I used to think this didn't matter, then I'd open a LST file and think this
          is a bit
          of a mess. Then I'd set the tab stop to six characters and suddenly it's
          all
          neat and lined up.
          andrew
          On 6 June 2011 09:04, Henk Slaaf <henk@...> wrote:

          > >
          > > Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I
          > find
          > > other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
          > > because they are so different from vim. And there's another point
          > speaking
          > > against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated
          > windows).
          >
          >
          > I'll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use
          > vim.
          > The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in
          > LST files and create a clean diff.
          >
          >
          > One of the problems with a lot of current commits is that the diff is very
          > large because of the scores of lines where only the whitespace has changed.
          > This makes merging very difficult and makes reviewing near-impossble.
          >
          > Editing with vertical spacing creates very, very clean diffs and gives us a
          > proper reviewing view.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Henk
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
          > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's Online Docs:
          > http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
          > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs:
          > http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
          >
          > PCGen List File Help:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andrew
          Hi, Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6 then. All I know it s been that standard for as long as I ve been around. ... --
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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            Hi,

            Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6 then.

            All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.



            On 6/6/2011 3:54 AM, Andrew Wilson wrote:
            > One thing I do recommend, if you're using vim. Set the tab stop to 6
            > characters.
            > Now you might think, "that's insane! tabs are eight characters wide da**it!"
            > and
            > mostly you'd be right. However! all the other data peeps are using 6
            > character
            > tabs and if you arn't then you can't see how they've lined up the various
            > sections
            > of their LST files.
            >
            > I used to think this didn't matter, then I'd open a LST file and think this
            > is a bit
            > of a mess. Then I'd set the tab stop to six characters and suddenly it's
            > all
            > neat and lined up.
            > andrew
            > On 6 June 2011 09:04, Henk Slaaf <henk@...> wrote:
            >
            >>> Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I
            >> find
            >>> other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
            >>> because they are so different from vim. And there's another point
            >> speaking
            >>> against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated
            >> windows).
            >>
            >>
            >> I'll try and start a .vimrc section in SVN for hackers that like to use
            >> vim.
            >> The syntax highlighting needs work and we need mappings to easily work in
            >> LST files and create a clean diff.
            >>
            >>
            >> One of the problems with a lot of current commits is that the diff is very
            >> large because of the scores of lines where only the whitespace has changed.
            >> This makes merging very difficult and makes reviewing near-impossble.
            >>
            >> Editing with vertical spacing creates very, very clean diffs and gives us a
            >> proper reviewing view.
            >>
            >> Thanks,
            >>
            >> Henk
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Related Lists
            >> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >> PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
            >> PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
            >> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            >> PCGen's Online Docs:
            >> http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
            >> PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs:
            >> http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
            >>
            >> PCGen List File Help:
            >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            >> (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >>
            >> PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            >> (for new official data source development)
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
            > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
            > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andrew Wilson
            ... Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this wasn t Barak — hi Barak /waves). Generally, changing the tab character from 8
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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              On 6 June 2011 12:00, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

              > Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6
              > then.


              Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully
              this wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

              Generally, changing the tab character from 8 spaces is a complete
              no no. In certain quarters the fact that I'm suggesting it here clearly
              labels me a heretic. Next thing you know it be crack whores in the
              street and drive by shootings.


              > All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.


              It also predates me.

              andrew


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Barak
              ... ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well. If I had to guess I d lay it at Tir s feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_ As for why, my bet would be
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
                > wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

                ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.

                If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_

                As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.

                Barak
              • Andrew
                Hi, It shouldn t be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and change a couple of webpages/docs. ... -- Andrew
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                  Hi,

                  It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
                  change a couple of webpages/docs.


                  On 6/6/2011 6:25 AM, Barak wrote:
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
                  >> wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).
                  > ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.
                  >
                  > If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_
                  >
                  > As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.
                  >
                  > Barak
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Related Lists
                  > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                  > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                  > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                  > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                  > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                  >
                  > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                  > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                  >
                  > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                  > (for new official data source development)
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • FerretDave
                  Greetings, Yes, familiarity (through work) is the biggie, the other thing is, as you say, vim works anywhere...even on some of the more obscure OS s there s
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                    Greetings,
                    Yes, familiarity (through work) is the biggie, the other thing is, as you say, vim works anywhere...even on some of the more obscure OS's there's still a copy of 'vi' at least.
                    It probably does boil down to touch typing too - using Vim I rarely take my hands off the keyboard.

                    I did try notepad++, and I think I couldnt get the syntax colouring to work for pcc & lst files, so thought there was no real gain to be had, and moved back.
                    I'll try it again if I can figure the syntax colouring.

                    Cheers
                    Dave
                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I don't know why the previous poster disagreed with Notepad++ - I find
                    > > it useful for almost all plain-text purposes.
                    >
                    > Well, as he wrote he's using vim at work extensively. I do, too, and I find
                    > other editors quite difficult to handle -- no matter how good they are --
                    > because they are so different from vim. And there's another point speaking
                    > against notepad++: It only runs on windows (or maybe on emulated windows).
                    >
                    > Susan
                    >
                  • FerretDave
                    Greetings, It is (or at least was) common practice to reduce the tabstop to less than 8, to save space in program code - each loop or conditional is indented
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                      Greetings,

                      It is (or at least was) common practice to reduce the tabstop to less than 8, to 'save space' in program code - each loop or conditional is indented to make it more readable, and 8 spaces for a tab can be excessive once you've got a lot of nested code. 4 or 6 is fairly common, and I'd guess that the originator of this setting just used the standard that they used for their other code.

                      With list files, there's no reason to use any particular value, we're resigned to having to scroll through the long lines anyway, so I'd vote for putting it back to a standard setting of 8.

                      Cheers
                      D

                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
                      > change a couple of webpages/docs.
                      >
                      >
                      > On 6/6/2011 6:25 AM, Barak wrote:
                      > >> -----Original Message-----
                      > >> Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully this
                      > >> wasn't Barak â€" hi Barak /waves).
                      > > ROFL... not this clueless muppet. It predates me as well.
                      > >
                      > > If I had to guess I'd lay it at Tir's feet (or pehaps Mynex). :P_
                      > >
                      > > As for why, my bet would be they were trying to cut down on line length but still keep a decent space.
                      > >
                      > > Barak
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Related Lists
                      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                      > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                      > > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                      > > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                      > >
                      > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                      > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                      > >
                      > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                      > > (for new official data source development)
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • FerretDave
                      Its also advised to actually note any nonstandard tab stops as a comment at the start of the file :-)
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 6, 2011
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                        Its also advised to actually note any nonstandard tab stops as a comment at the start of the file :-)

                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        >
                        > It shouldn't be hard to change to 8, if such a thing is heretical. Just need to change prettylst and
                        > change a couple of webpages/docs.
                      • Ainvar G
                        Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still normal, to be
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
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                          Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still normal, to be honest.

                          AinvarG



                          ________________________________
                          From: Andrew Wilson <andrew@...>
                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 6:27 AM
                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?


                           
                          On 6 June 2011 12:00, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

                          > Tab spaces are default 8? I wonder why the data standard is set for 6
                          > then.

                          Someone on the original data team is/was a clueless muppet (hopefully
                          this wasn't Barak — hi Barak /waves).

                          Generally, changing the tab character from 8 spaces is a complete
                          no no. In certain quarters the fact that I'm suggesting it here clearly
                          labels me a heretic. Next thing you know it be crack whores in the
                          street and drive by shootings.

                          > All I know it's been that standard for as long as I've been around.

                          It also predates me.

                          andrew

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Susan Dittmar
                          ... Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next tab-stop.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 16, 2011
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                            Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                            > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                            > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                            > normal, to be honest.

                            Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                            pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                            tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                            Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                            my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.

                            Susan
                          • FerretDave
                            Greetings, I m sure when I learnt to touchtype* my manual typewriter had settable tabstops, you could realign them to any column you required... That s the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 16, 2011
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                              Greetings,
                              I'm sure when I learnt to touchtype* my manual typewriter had settable tabstops, you could realign them to any column you required...

                              That's the point I guess, a tab is to line up the text into a 'convenient' position, it certainly wasnt a fixed number globally, and wasnt even a fixed number for each tab on a line! (tab stops set at column 6,20,28,36 & 50 would do your paragraph indent and data into a table)

                              however we probably digress... set tabs at whatever looks good, and just be consistent, and indicate what size you use.

                              *Touchtyping - I'd consider that a prerequisite to 'enjoy' using vi :-) A mouse is unnecessary.

                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                              > > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                              > > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                              > > normal, to be honest.
                              >
                              > Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                              > pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                              > tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                              > Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                              > my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.
                              >
                              > Susan
                              >
                            • Ainvar G
                              Making me think way back now, aren t you? If memory serves, we had two choices of fonts to work with - Elite and Pica. I believe Elite was 12 characters per
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
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                                Making me think way back now, aren't you?

                                If memory serves, we had two choices of fonts to work with - Elite and Pica. I believe Elite was 12 characters per inch while Pica was 10 cpi.  We generally used Elite.  Thinking back, I don't remember if we were supposed to be setting the tab stops at the half-inch or at 6 characters, but it was effectively the same.

                                But as usual, you are correct - the tabs were defined by the tab stops on the typewriters -- the practice in our coursework happened to work out to be 6 characters, so it's always been the norm in the back of my mind, I guess.

                                And for the record, I'm not knocking vi in any fashion -- I'm not a professional developer, but it's a virtual guarantee that will spend an hour or two using it every day I'm at work. I prefer it to the alternatives that the whippersnappers keep showing me. ;-)



                                ________________________________
                                From: Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...>
                                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:38 AM
                                Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Advice on how to edit the LST files?


                                 
                                Quoting Ainvar G (ainvarg@...):
                                > Well, in my (pre-computer) keyboarding classes a very long time ago, a
                                > tab was defined as 6 characters.  Until today, I thought that was still
                                > normal, to be honest.

                                Funny. In my keyboarding classes, also pre-computer, a tab was defined by
                                pressing the tab key, which transported the typewriter head to the next
                                tab-stop. According to---if I remember correctly---a DIN (German Industry
                                Norm) the distance of those tab-stops was defined as 8. Which was the same
                                my grandpa's old and wonderful mechanical typewriter had built in.

                                Susan




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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