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Re: [SPAM] Re: [pcgen] Re: Problems Starting

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  • Patryk Adamski
    Hello TAYLOR, the comments follow. Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote: TN I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
    Message 1 of 15 , May 3, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello TAYLOR,

      the comments follow.

      Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:

      TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
      TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points

      I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
      approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.

      TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
      TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
      TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))

      I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
      Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
      7 (x64).
      I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
      files).

      TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
      TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
      TN> install it.

      If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
      don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
      options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
      running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).

      TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
      TN> Uninstallable.

      Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
      of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
      transparent application upgrade.

      TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
      TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.

      Unpacking is quite different from installing.
      Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
      if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
      default options properly, as opposed to installer.
      Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
      approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
      system configuration.

      TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer

      I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.

      TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
      TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
      TN> the install paths per se.

      The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
      "severe" instead of "some".
      And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
      versions are at the root of the problem.

      TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
      TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
      TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
      TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
      TN> Files tree.

      There is a reason why database applications are using their own
      install locations.

      The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
      different portions of the application, with provision for different
      versions, for example:

      - user data version XXX,
      - user settings version XXX,
      - application core files version XXX,
      - application data version XXX,
      - application settings version XXX.
      - application plugins core files version XXX,
      - application plugins data version XXX,
      - application plugins settings version XXX,

      All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
      configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
      "data" items.
      The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
      adjusting user experience.

      TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
      TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
      TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.

      TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
      TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
      TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
      TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
      TN> into a slanging match over those.

      Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
      space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
      forced by installer?

      To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
      therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.

      TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
      TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.

      Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
      application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
      causes problems for less savvy users.

      By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
      Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.

      TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
      TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
      TN> this, though he may intend it.
      TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
      TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!

      One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
      user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
      of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
      event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
      antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
      Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
      certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).

      TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
      TN> default folder works fine.
      TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
      TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.

      TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.

      See above.

      TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
      TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
      TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
      TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
      TN> Backup - YES!

      See above.

      TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
      TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
      TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.

      It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
      to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.


      Regards,
      Ruemere
      --
      email>> ruemere@...
      www>> www.ruemere.com
    • tripleh5133
      Ok, taking everyone s advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I m still unable to create a character using the following
      Message 2 of 15 , May 3, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:

        RSRD 3.5e
        Mongoose Collector Series

        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello TAYLOR,
        >
        > the comments follow.
        >
        > Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
        >
        > TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
        > TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
        >
        > I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
        > approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
        >
        > TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
        > TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
        > TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
        >
        > I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
        > Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
        > 7 (x64).
        > I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
        > files).
        >
        > TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
        > TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
        > TN> install it.
        >
        > If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
        > don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
        > options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
        > running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
        >
        > TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
        > TN> Uninstallable.
        >
        > Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
        > of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
        > transparent application upgrade.
        >
        > TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
        > TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
        >
        > Unpacking is quite different from installing.
        > Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
        > if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
        > default options properly, as opposed to installer.
        > Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
        > approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
        > system configuration.
        >
        > TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
        >
        > I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
        >
        > TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
        > TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
        > TN> the install paths per se.
        >
        > The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
        > "severe" instead of "some".
        > And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
        > versions are at the root of the problem.
        >
        > TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
        > TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
        > TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
        > TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
        > TN> Files tree.
        >
        > There is a reason why database applications are using their own
        > install locations.
        >
        > The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
        > different portions of the application, with provision for different
        > versions, for example:
        >
        > - user data version XXX,
        > - user settings version XXX,
        > - application core files version XXX,
        > - application data version XXX,
        > - application settings version XXX.
        > - application plugins core files version XXX,
        > - application plugins data version XXX,
        > - application plugins settings version XXX,
        >
        > All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
        > configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
        > "data" items.
        > The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
        > adjusting user experience.
        >
        > TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
        > TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
        > TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
        >
        > TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
        > TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
        > TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
        > TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
        > TN> into a slanging match over those.
        >
        > Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
        > space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
        > forced by installer?
        >
        > To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
        > therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
        >
        > TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
        > TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
        >
        > Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
        > application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
        > causes problems for less savvy users.
        >
        > By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
        > Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
        >
        > TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
        > TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
        > TN> this, though he may intend it.
        > TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
        > TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
        >
        > One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
        > user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
        > of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
        > event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
        > antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
        > Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
        > certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
        >
        > TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
        > TN> default folder works fine.
        > TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
        > TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
        >
        > TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
        >
        > See above.
        >
        > TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
        > TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
        > TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
        > TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
        > TN> Backup - YES!
        >
        > See above.
        >
        > TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
        > TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
        > TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
        >
        > It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
        > to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Ruemere
        > --
        > email>> ruemere@...
        > www>> www.ruemere.com
        >
      • Andrew
        Hi, *enter the admin debugging monkey* Version of PCGen during this test? Java Version? Any console errors? (If so please post them here) Can you describe in a
        Message 3 of 15 , May 3, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,

          *enter the admin debugging monkey*

          Version of PCGen during this test?
          Java Version?

          Any console errors? (If so please post them here)

          Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
          Do the sources not load?
          Do you even see the sources?

          Step by step process will definitely help.

          Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.

          Cheers,

          On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
          > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
          >
          > RSRD 3.5e
          > Mongoose Collector Series
          >
          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@...> wrote:
          >> Hello TAYLOR,
          >>
          >> the comments follow.
          >>
          >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
          >>
          >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
          >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
          >>
          >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
          >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
          >>
          >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
          >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
          >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
          >>
          >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
          >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
          >> 7 (x64).
          >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
          >> files).
          >>
          >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
          >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
          >> TN> install it.
          >>
          >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
          >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
          >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
          >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
          >>
          >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
          >> TN> Uninstallable.
          >>
          >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
          >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
          >> transparent application upgrade.
          >>
          >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
          >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
          >>
          >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
          >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
          >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
          >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
          >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
          >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
          >> system configuration.
          >>
          >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
          >>
          >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
          >>
          >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
          >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
          >> TN> the install paths per se.
          >>
          >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
          >> "severe" instead of "some".
          >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
          >> versions are at the root of the problem.
          >>
          >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
          >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
          >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
          >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
          >> TN> Files tree.
          >>
          >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
          >> install locations.
          >>
          >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
          >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
          >> versions, for example:
          >>
          >> - user data version XXX,
          >> - user settings version XXX,
          >> - application core files version XXX,
          >> - application data version XXX,
          >> - application settings version XXX.
          >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
          >> - application plugins data version XXX,
          >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
          >>
          >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
          >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
          >> "data" items.
          >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
          >> adjusting user experience.
          >>
          >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
          >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
          >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
          >>
          >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
          >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
          >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
          >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
          >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
          >>
          >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
          >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
          >> forced by installer?
          >>
          >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
          >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
          >>
          >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
          >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
          >>
          >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
          >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
          >> causes problems for less savvy users.
          >>
          >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
          >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
          >>
          >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
          >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
          >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
          >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
          >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
          >>
          >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
          >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
          >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
          >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
          >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
          >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
          >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
          >>
          >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
          >> TN> default folder works fine.
          >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
          >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
          >>
          >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
          >>
          >> See above.
          >>
          >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
          >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
          >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
          >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
          >> TN> Backup - YES!
          >>
          >> See above.
          >>
          >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
          >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
          >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
          >>
          >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
          >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
          >>
          >>
          >> Regards,
          >> Ruemere
          >> --
          >> email>> ruemere@...
          >> www>> www.ruemere.com
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Related Lists
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
          > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
          > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
          >
          > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
          > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
          >
          > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
          > (for new official data source development)
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tripleh5133
          It s that same as identified in post# 105778 The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 3, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            It's that same as identified in post# 105778

            The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.

            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > *enter the admin debugging monkey*
            >
            > Version of PCGen during this test?
            > Java Version?
            >
            > Any console errors? (If so please post them here)
            >
            > Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
            > Do the sources not load?
            > Do you even see the sources?
            >
            > Step by step process will definitely help.
            >
            > Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
            > > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
            > >
            > > RSRD 3.5e
            > > Mongoose Collector Series
            > >
            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@> wrote:
            > >> Hello TAYLOR,
            > >>
            > >> the comments follow.
            > >>
            > >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
            > >>
            > >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
            > >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
            > >>
            > >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
            > >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
            > >>
            > >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
            > >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
            > >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
            > >>
            > >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
            > >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
            > >> 7 (x64).
            > >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
            > >> files).
            > >>
            > >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
            > >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
            > >> TN> install it.
            > >>
            > >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
            > >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
            > >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
            > >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
            > >>
            > >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
            > >> TN> Uninstallable.
            > >>
            > >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
            > >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
            > >> transparent application upgrade.
            > >>
            > >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
            > >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
            > >>
            > >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
            > >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
            > >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
            > >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
            > >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
            > >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
            > >> system configuration.
            > >>
            > >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
            > >>
            > >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
            > >>
            > >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
            > >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
            > >> TN> the install paths per se.
            > >>
            > >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
            > >> "severe" instead of "some".
            > >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
            > >> versions are at the root of the problem.
            > >>
            > >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
            > >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
            > >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
            > >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
            > >> TN> Files tree.
            > >>
            > >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
            > >> install locations.
            > >>
            > >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
            > >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
            > >> versions, for example:
            > >>
            > >> - user data version XXX,
            > >> - user settings version XXX,
            > >> - application core files version XXX,
            > >> - application data version XXX,
            > >> - application settings version XXX.
            > >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
            > >> - application plugins data version XXX,
            > >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
            > >>
            > >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
            > >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
            > >> "data" items.
            > >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
            > >> adjusting user experience.
            > >>
            > >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
            > >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
            > >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
            > >>
            > >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
            > >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
            > >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
            > >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
            > >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
            > >>
            > >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
            > >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
            > >> forced by installer?
            > >>
            > >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
            > >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
            > >>
            > >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
            > >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
            > >>
            > >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
            > >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
            > >> causes problems for less savvy users.
            > >>
            > >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
            > >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
            > >>
            > >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
            > >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
            > >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
            > >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
            > >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
            > >>
            > >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
            > >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
            > >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
            > >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
            > >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
            > >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
            > >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
            > >>
            > >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
            > >> TN> default folder works fine.
            > >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
            > >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
            > >>
            > >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
            > >>
            > >> See above.
            > >>
            > >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
            > >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
            > >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
            > >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
            > >> TN> Backup - YES!
            > >>
            > >> See above.
            > >>
            > >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
            > >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
            > >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
            > >>
            > >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
            > >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Regards,
            > >> Ruemere
            > >> --
            > >> email>> ruemere@
            > >> www>> www.ruemere.com
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Related Lists
            > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
            > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
            > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
            > > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
            > >
            > > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            > >
            > > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > > (for new official data source development)
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • James Dempsey
            Hi, In your C: Users username .pcgen folder you ll see a file settings.ini While PCGen is not running, please rename this to something else and then restart
            Message 5 of 15 , May 3, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi,

              In your C:\Users\username\.pcgen folder you'll see a file settings.ini

              While PCGen is not running, please rename this to something else and
              then restart PCGen. This will reset your settings back to their
              defaults. Please let us know if that helps with the problem.

              Cheers,
              James Dempsey
              PCGen Code SB



              On 4 May 2011 14:10, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
              > It's that same as identified in post# 105778
              >
              > The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.
              >
              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hi,
              >>
              >> *enter the admin debugging monkey*
              >>
              >> Version of PCGen during this test?
              >> Java Version?
              >>
              >> Any console errors? (If so please post them here)
              >>
              >> Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
              >> Do the sources not load?
              >> Do you even see the sources?
              >>
              >> Step by step process will definitely help.
              >>
              >> Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.
              >>
              >> Cheers,
              >>
              >> On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
              >> > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
              >> >
              >> > RSRD 3.5e
              >> > Mongoose Collector Series
              >> >
              >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@> wrote:
              >> >> Hello TAYLOR,
              >> >>
              >> >> the comments follow.
              >> >>
              >> >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
              >> >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
              >> >>
              >> >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
              >> >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
              >> >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
              >> >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
              >> >>
              >> >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
              >> >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
              >> >> 7 (x64).
              >> >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
              >> >> files).
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
              >> >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
              >> >> TN> install it.
              >> >>
              >> >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
              >> >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
              >> >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
              >> >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
              >> >> TN> Uninstallable.
              >> >>
              >> >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
              >> >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
              >> >> transparent application upgrade.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
              >> >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
              >> >>
              >> >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
              >> >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
              >> >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
              >> >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
              >> >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
              >> >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
              >> >> system configuration.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
              >> >>
              >> >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
              >> >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
              >> >> TN> the install paths per se.
              >> >>
              >> >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
              >> >> "severe" instead of "some".
              >> >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
              >> >> versions are at the root of the problem.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
              >> >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
              >> >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
              >> >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
              >> >> TN> Files tree.
              >> >>
              >> >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
              >> >> install locations.
              >> >>
              >> >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
              >> >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
              >> >> versions, for example:
              >> >>
              >> >> - user data version XXX,
              >> >> - user settings version XXX,
              >> >> - application core files version XXX,
              >> >> - application data version XXX,
              >> >> - application settings version XXX.
              >> >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
              >> >> - application plugins data version XXX,
              >> >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
              >> >>
              >> >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
              >> >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
              >> >> "data" items.
              >> >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
              >> >> adjusting user experience.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
              >> >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
              >> >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
              >> >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
              >> >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
              >> >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
              >> >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
              >> >>
              >> >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
              >> >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
              >> >> forced by installer?
              >> >>
              >> >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
              >> >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
              >> >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
              >> >>
              >> >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
              >> >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
              >> >> causes problems for less savvy users.
              >> >>
              >> >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
              >> >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
              >> >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
              >> >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
              >> >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
              >> >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
              >> >>
              >> >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
              >> >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
              >> >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
              >> >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
              >> >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
              >> >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
              >> >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
              >> >> TN> default folder works fine.
              >> >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
              >> >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
              >> >>
              >> >> See above.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
              >> >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
              >> >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
              >> >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
              >> >> TN> Backup - YES!
              >> >>
              >> >> See above.
              >> >>
              >> >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
              >> >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
              >> >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
              >> >>
              >> >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
              >> >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >> Regards,
              >> >> Ruemere
              >> >> --
              >> >> email>> ruemere@
              >> >> www>> www.ruemere.com
              >> >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Related Lists
              >> > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              >> > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
              >> > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
              >> > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
              >> > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
              >> > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
              >> >
              >> > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
              >> > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
              >> >
              >> > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
              >> > (for new official data source development)
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >> --
              >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            • tripleh5133
              That may be where I m having a problem. In the .pcgen folder I have the following: Folder - characters (empty) Folder - customsources (empty) Folder -
              Message 6 of 15 , May 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                That may be where I'm having a problem. In the .pcgen folder I have the following:

                Folder - characters (empty)
                Folder - customsources (empty)
                Folder - vendordata (empty)
                filter.ini
                options.ini

                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > In your C:\Users\username\.pcgen folder you'll see a file settings.ini
                >
                > While PCGen is not running, please rename this to something else and
                > then restart PCGen. This will reset your settings back to their
                > defaults. Please let us know if that helps with the problem.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > James Dempsey
                > PCGen Code SB
                >
                >
                >
                > On 4 May 2011 14:10, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
                > > It's that same as identified in post# 105778
                > >
                > > The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.
                > >
                > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Hi,
                > >>
                > >> *enter the admin debugging monkey*
                > >>
                > >> Version of PCGen during this test?
                > >> Java Version?
                > >>
                > >> Any console errors? (If so please post them here)
                > >>
                > >> Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
                > >> Do the sources not load?
                > >> Do you even see the sources?
                > >>
                > >> Step by step process will definitely help.
                > >>
                > >> Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.
                > >>
                > >> Cheers,
                > >>
                > >> On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
                > >> > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
                > >> >
                > >> > RSRD 3.5e
                > >> > Mongoose Collector Series
                > >> >
                > >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@> wrote:
                > >> >> Hello TAYLOR,
                > >> >>
                > >> >> the comments follow.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
                > >> >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
                > >> >>
                > >> >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
                > >> >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
                > >> >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
                > >> >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
                > >> >>
                > >> >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
                > >> >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
                > >> >> 7 (x64).
                > >> >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
                > >> >> files).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
                > >> >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
                > >> >> TN> install it.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
                > >> >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
                > >> >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
                > >> >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
                > >> >> TN> Uninstallable.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
                > >> >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
                > >> >> transparent application upgrade.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
                > >> >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
                > >> >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
                > >> >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
                > >> >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
                > >> >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
                > >> >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
                > >> >> system configuration.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
                > >> >>
                > >> >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
                > >> >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
                > >> >> TN> the install paths per se.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
                > >> >> "severe" instead of "some".
                > >> >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
                > >> >> versions are at the root of the problem.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
                > >> >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
                > >> >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
                > >> >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
                > >> >> TN> Files tree.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
                > >> >> install locations.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
                > >> >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
                > >> >> versions, for example:
                > >> >>
                > >> >> - user data version XXX,
                > >> >> - user settings version XXX,
                > >> >> - application core files version XXX,
                > >> >> - application data version XXX,
                > >> >> - application settings version XXX.
                > >> >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
                > >> >> - application plugins data version XXX,
                > >> >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
                > >> >>
                > >> >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
                > >> >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
                > >> >> "data" items.
                > >> >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
                > >> >> adjusting user experience.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
                > >> >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
                > >> >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
                > >> >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
                > >> >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
                > >> >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
                > >> >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
                > >> >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
                > >> >> forced by installer?
                > >> >>
                > >> >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
                > >> >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
                > >> >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
                > >> >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
                > >> >> causes problems for less savvy users.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
                > >> >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
                > >> >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
                > >> >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
                > >> >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
                > >> >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
                > >> >>
                > >> >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
                > >> >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
                > >> >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
                > >> >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
                > >> >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
                > >> >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
                > >> >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
                > >> >> TN> default folder works fine.
                > >> >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
                > >> >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> See above.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
                > >> >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
                > >> >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
                > >> >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
                > >> >> TN> Backup - YES!
                > >> >>
                > >> >> See above.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
                > >> >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
                > >> >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
                > >> >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
                > >> >>
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Regards,
                > >> >> Ruemere
                > >> >> --
                > >> >> email>> ruemere@
                > >> >> www>> www.ruemere.com
                > >> >>
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > ------------------------------------
                > >> >
                > >> > Related Lists
                > >> > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                > >> > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                > >> > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                > >> > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                > >> > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                > >> > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                > >> >
                > >> > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                > >> > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                > >> >
                > >> > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                > >> > (for new official data source development)
                > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >> --
                > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                >
              • James Dempsey
                Oops, that should be options.ini and filter.ini you shgould rename out of the way. Cheers, James Dempsey PCGen Code SB
                Message 7 of 15 , May 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Oops, that should be options.ini and filter.ini you shgould rename out
                  of the way.

                  Cheers,
                  James Dempsey
                  PCGen Code SB


                  On 4 May 2011 14:38, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
                  > That may be where I'm having a problem. In the .pcgen folder I have the following:
                  >
                  > Folder - characters (empty)
                  > Folder - customsources (empty)
                  > Folder - vendordata (empty)
                  > filter.ini
                  > options.ini
                  >
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Hi,
                  >>
                  >> In your C:\Users\username\.pcgen folder you'll see a file settings.ini
                  >>
                  >> While PCGen is not running, please rename this to something else and
                  >> then restart PCGen. This will reset your settings back to their
                  >> defaults. Please let us know if that helps with the problem.
                  >>
                  >> Cheers,
                  >> James Dempsey
                  >> PCGen Code SB
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On 4 May 2011 14:10, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
                  >> > It's that same as identified in post# 105778
                  >> >
                  >> > The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.
                  >> >
                  >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Hi,
                  >> >>
                  >> >> *enter the admin debugging monkey*
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Version of PCGen during this test?
                  >> >> Java Version?
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Any console errors? (If so please post them here)
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
                  >> >> Do the sources not load?
                  >> >> Do you even see the sources?
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Step by step process will definitely help.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Cheers,
                  >> >>
                  >> >> On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
                  >> >> > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > RSRD 3.5e
                  >> >> > Mongoose Collector Series
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@> wrote:
                  >> >> >> Hello TAYLOR,
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> the comments follow.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
                  >> >> >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
                  >> >> >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
                  >> >> >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
                  >> >> >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
                  >> >> >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
                  >> >> >> 7 (x64).
                  >> >> >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
                  >> >> >> files).
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
                  >> >> >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
                  >> >> >> TN> install it.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
                  >> >> >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
                  >> >> >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
                  >> >> >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
                  >> >> >> TN> Uninstallable.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
                  >> >> >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
                  >> >> >> transparent application upgrade.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
                  >> >> >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
                  >> >> >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
                  >> >> >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
                  >> >> >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
                  >> >> >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
                  >> >> >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
                  >> >> >> system configuration.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
                  >> >> >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
                  >> >> >> TN> the install paths per se.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
                  >> >> >> "severe" instead of "some".
                  >> >> >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
                  >> >> >> versions are at the root of the problem.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
                  >> >> >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
                  >> >> >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
                  >> >> >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
                  >> >> >> TN> Files tree.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
                  >> >> >> install locations.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
                  >> >> >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
                  >> >> >> versions, for example:
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> - user data version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - user settings version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - application core files version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - application data version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - application settings version XXX.
                  >> >> >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - application plugins data version XXX,
                  >> >> >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
                  >> >> >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
                  >> >> >> "data" items.
                  >> >> >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
                  >> >> >> adjusting user experience.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
                  >> >> >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
                  >> >> >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
                  >> >> >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
                  >> >> >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
                  >> >> >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
                  >> >> >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
                  >> >> >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
                  >> >> >> forced by installer?
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
                  >> >> >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
                  >> >> >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
                  >> >> >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
                  >> >> >> causes problems for less savvy users.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
                  >> >> >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
                  >> >> >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
                  >> >> >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
                  >> >> >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
                  >> >> >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
                  >> >> >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
                  >> >> >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
                  >> >> >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
                  >> >> >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
                  >> >> >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
                  >> >> >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
                  >> >> >> TN> default folder works fine.
                  >> >> >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
                  >> >> >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> See above.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
                  >> >> >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
                  >> >> >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
                  >> >> >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
                  >> >> >> TN> Backup - YES!
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> See above.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
                  >> >> >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
                  >> >> >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
                  >> >> >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >>
                  >> >> >> Regards,
                  >> >> >> Ruemere
                • Harvey Howell
                  Thanks James, That really helped. For the first time ever, I was able to use PCGen last night flawlessly while gaming. To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com From:
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 5, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks James,

                    That really helped. For the first time ever, I was able to use PCGen last night flawlessly while gaming.



                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    From: jdempsey@...
                    Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 15:24:22 +1000
                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Problems Starting






                    Oops, that should be options.ini and filter.ini you shgould rename out
                    of the way.

                    Cheers,
                    James Dempsey
                    PCGen Code SB

                    On 4 May 2011 14:38, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
                    > That may be where I'm having a problem. In the .pcgen folder I have the following:
                    >
                    > Folder - characters (empty)
                    > Folder - customsources (empty)
                    > Folder - vendordata (empty)
                    > filter.ini
                    > options.ini
                    >
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Hi,
                    >>
                    >> In your C:\Users\username\.pcgen folder you'll see a file settings.ini
                    >>
                    >> While PCGen is not running, please rename this to something else and
                    >> then restart PCGen. This will reset your settings back to their
                    >> defaults. Please let us know if that helps with the problem.
                    >>
                    >> Cheers,
                    >> James Dempsey
                    >> PCGen Code SB
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 4 May 2011 14:10, tripleh5133 <tripleh5133@...> wrote:
                    >> > It's that same as identified in post# 105778
                    >> >
                    >> > The sources do load & I do see them, but my races are extremely limited as indicated in the original post.
                    >> >
                    >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Hi,
                    >> >>
                    >> >> *enter the admin debugging monkey*
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Version of PCGen during this test?
                    >> >> Java Version?
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Any console errors? (If so please post them here)
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Can you describe in a little more detail about this inability to create a character?
                    >> >> Do the sources not load?
                    >> >> Do you even see the sources?
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Step by step process will definitely help.
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Details are the bread and butter of speedy resolution.
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Cheers,
                    >> >>
                    >> >> On 5/3/2011 8:36 PM, tripleh5133 wrote:
                    >> >> > Ok, taking everyone's advice, I just reinstalled directly into its own folder on my hard drive and I'm still unable to create a character using the following sources:
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > RSRD 3.5e
                    >> >> > Mongoose Collector Series
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Patryk Adamski <ruemere@> wrote:
                    >> >> >> Hello TAYLOR,
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> the comments follow.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 1:46:41 PM, you wrote:
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> I was trying to stay out of involved Windows installer bashing, but before
                    >> >> >> TN> Patryk issues Jiras I have to take issue with his points
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> I'm fully aware that my advice is more of a "hack" than a solid
                    >> >> >> approach. That's why I am quite unlikely to raise a Jira.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> 1) no the Windows .exe Installer is NOT problematic in itself - I have been
                    >> >> >> TN> using it since I started with PCGen, both on Windows XP and Windows 7-64.
                    >> >> >> TN> PCGen "just works" from running the .EXE (though see (2))
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> I've run pcGen under WinXp, Win2000, Win98 (just for the heck of it),
                    >> >> >> Fedora and Ubuntu. No experience using Macs, sorry. Also Vista (x64),
                    >> >> >> 7 (x64).
                    >> >> >> I've also run pcGen in headless mode (for batch processing of user
                    >> >> >> files).
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> In general, installers (either MSI or EXE) are *better* than ZIP folders as
                    >> >> >> TN> they can currently adjust the working environment for a program as they
                    >> >> >> TN> install it.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> If only the installers allowed for clear separation of versions. They
                    >> >> >> don't, so as soon as you try to do side-by-side install using default
                    >> >> >> options, you're going to run into problems, especially, if you try
                    >> >> >> running an legacy version with commercial datasets (CMP).
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> They also link into Windows Add/Remove system and arrange to be
                    >> >> >> TN> Uninstallable.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Unless there is a clear migration path policy in place or separation
                    >> >> >> of different version, this is a trap for most users accustomed to
                    >> >> >> transparent application upgrade.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> Very few Windows programs guarantee to work correctly with no further
                    >> >> >> TN> effort, if installed from a ZIP.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Unpacking is quite different from installing.
                    >> >> >> Decently prepared applications know how to handle themselves properly
                    >> >> >> if unpacked... pcGen unpacked and run for the first time allows to set
                    >> >> >> default options properly, as opposed to installer.
                    >> >> >> Actually, using portable version of any application is a healthy
                    >> >> >> approach nowadays, as it allows for greater freedom with regard to
                    >> >> >> system configuration.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> there should be no Jira deprecating the .exe installer
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> I am quite far from advocating depreciation of the installer.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> re Patryk's extra explanation - there are indeed some issues with
                    >> >> >> TN> side-by-side installations of multiple versions of PCGen, but unrelated to
                    >> >> >> TN> the install paths per se.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> The severity of issues is highly debatable. I would recommend use
                    >> >> >> "severe" instead of "some".
                    >> >> >> And default install paths, which do not allow for clear separation of
                    >> >> >> versions are at the root of the problem.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> And the installer is NOT wrongly placing the program in a non-editable
                    >> >> >> TN> location - it would be the *right* place if PCGen were fixed re editable
                    >> >> >> TN> files. The explanation for (2) is the correct one, which is that PCGen does
                    >> >> >> TN> not obey the Windows restriction not to place editable files in Program
                    >> >> >> TN> Files tree.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> There is a reason why database applications are using their own
                    >> >> >> install locations.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> The way I see it, pcGen should use separate install locations for
                    >> >> >> different portions of the application, with provision for different
                    >> >> >> versions, for example:
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> - user data version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - user settings version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - application core files version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - application data version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - application settings version XXX.
                    >> >> >> - application plugins core files version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - application plugins data version XXX,
                    >> >> >> - application plugins settings version XXX,
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> All "core" items would be available for add/remove (install/uninstall),
                    >> >> >> configuration data (like datasets and game mode) would be placed in
                    >> >> >> "data" items.
                    >> >> >> The settings elements would be used for performing data migrations and
                    >> >> >> adjusting user experience.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> 2) I agree about installing to an alternative folder.
                    >> >> >> TN> Since PCGen keeps modifiable data files in the progree tree, you should
                    >> >> >> TN> install PCGen to a location outside the Program File folder tree.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> Patryk's explanation is ill-founded, cursing Windows file-protection
                    >> >> >> TN> mechanisms. Without going into details, there are a great many positive
                    >> >> >> TN> reasons why Microsoft have been right to protect the Windows and Program
                    >> >> >> TN> Files folders, and with the UAC controls work well... PLEASE don't let's get
                    >> >> >> TN> into a slanging match over those.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Why put in application space software which clearly requires user
                    >> >> >> space privileges, and which does not interact with system unless
                    >> >> >> forced by installer?
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> To put it like this: pcGen does not need to interact with system,
                    >> >> >> therefore making it a part of a system is needlessly restrictive.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> It remains true that the bodge of pushing PCGen into an alternative folder
                    >> >> >> TN> tree works round the error in PCGen's behaviour.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Again, pcGen, as it is, is a user space application, forcing it into
                    >> >> >> application space is unnecessary, and, as evidenced multiple times,
                    >> >> >> causes problems for less savvy users.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> By the way, pcGen is intended for people, not for power users only.
                    >> >> >> Therefore it should not require specialized knowledge to run.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> I do not understand Patryk's complaint about Documents or Desktop, unless it
                    >> >> >> TN> is to say "do not install PCGen onto the desktop" - he does not actually say
                    >> >> >> TN> this, though he may intend it.
                    >> >> >> TN> If so, I would agree with that: don't install programs into the first folder
                    >> >> >> TN> that falls to hand - think about where you install it!
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> One of the most problematic issues with Windows is that it changes
                    >> >> >> user profile paths in certain cases. Since pcGen in some cases uses absolute paths, use
                    >> >> >> of default user profile folder will invalidate pcGen whenever such
                    >> >> >> event occurs (system reinstallation, user registry corruption, zealous
                    >> >> >> antivirus protection mechanism, etc).
                    >> >> >> Granted, this is not likely to happen, but it is quite possible in
                    >> >> >> certain environments (users of Home Server, beware).
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> 3) there is no need to force PCGen settings to an alternative folder - the
                    >> >> >> TN> default folder works fine.
                    >> >> >> TN> I also have had no problem setting the preference path for loading PCG files
                    >> >> >> TN> to a variety of folders, moving it as I move between projects.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> There is no reason not to place a tree of character files in My Documents.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> See above.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> I would mildly agree with not placing PCG files in My Documents itself, but
                    >> >> >> TN> only because it gets so cluttered if you place all documents in one folder.
                    >> >> >> TN> I'm far too tidy for that and divide campaigns into sub-folders, with
                    >> >> >> TN> sub-wsub-folders for generations of characters etc...
                    >> >> >> TN> Backup - YES!
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> See above.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> TN> 4) no idea about "-" in path names. never done it...
                    >> >> >> TN> I have no problem with a variety of other odd characters in path names as
                    >> >> >> TN> used for data files, or linked files eg companions and images.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> It may be an old error. The problem occurred when the path was related
                    >> >> >> to PDF export and sometimes to loading characters files.
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >>
                    >> >> >> Regards,
                    >> >> >> Ruemere




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