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Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    Ok, I m changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting No Traits , as
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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      Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
      traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
      as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
      are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
      NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
      this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

      I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
      standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

      Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
      traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
      showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
      setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
      Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
      to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
      won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
      idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
      Though their use will really be minimal.

      Regards,
      Stefan.

      On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
      > Hi,
      >
      > I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
      > there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
      > and players to police themselves.
      >
      > AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
      > of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
      >
      > I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
      > Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
      > matters to me.
      >
      > On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
      > > That is why I am not saying no.
      > >
      > > David
      > > Papa.DRB
      > >
      > > Grognard (definition
      > > 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
      > > me
      > > <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
      > > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
      > >
      > > On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
      > >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
      > >>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
      > >>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
      > >>
      > >> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
      > >> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
      > >> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
      > >>
      > >> Stefan.
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Related Lists
      > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
      > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
      > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
      > > PCGen's Online Docs:
      > > http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
      > > Autobuilds and Docs:
      > > http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
      > >
      > > PCGen List File Help:
      > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
      > > creating new homebrew or official list files)
      > >
      > > PCGen Experimental:
      > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
      > > data source development)
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew Maitland
      Hi, ... Sounds like a good plan. ... I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards. ... Leaving them in should be fine.
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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        Hi,




        On 11/2/2010 3:58 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
        > Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
        > traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
        > as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
        > are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
        > NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
        > this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

        Sounds like a good plan.

        > I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
        > standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

        I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards.

        > Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
        > traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
        > showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
        > setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
        > Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
        > to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
        > won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
        > idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
        > Though their use will really be minimal.

        Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use SORTKEY to put the sample
        at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing
        wrong with that. I was going through and entering ALL the missing items.

        Cheers,

        > Regards,
        > Stefan.
        >
        > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
        >> there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
        >> and players to police themselves.
        >>
        >> AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
        >> of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
        >>
        >> I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
        >> Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
        >> matters to me.
        >>
        >> On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
        >>> That is why I am not saying no.
        >>>
        >>> David
        >>> Papa.DRB
        >>>
        >>> Grognard (definition
        >>> 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
        >>> me
        >>> <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
        >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
        >>>
        >>> On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
        >>>> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
        >>>>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
        >>>>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
        >>>> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
        >>>> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
        >>>> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
        >>>>
        >>>> Stefan.
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>> Related Lists
        >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        >>> PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
        >>> PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
        >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        >>> PCGen's Online Docs:
        >>> http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
        >>> Autobuilds and Docs:
        >>> http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
        >>>
        >>> PCGen List File Help:
        >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
        >>> creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >>>
        >>> PCGen Experimental:
        >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
        >>> data source development)
        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Related Lists
        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
        > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
        > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
        >
        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
        >
        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
        > (for new official data source development)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stefan Radermacher
        ... Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of TYPE:CampaignTraits. Stefan.
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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          On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
          > Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
          > SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
          > can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
          > going through and entering ALL the missing items.

          Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
          TYPE:CampaignTraits.

          Stefan.
        • Andrew Maitland
          Hi, I m fine with that. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur Unique Title
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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            Hi,

            I'm fine with that.


            On 11/2/2010 4:35 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
            > On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
            >> Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
            >> SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
            >> can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
            >> going through and entering ALL the missing items.
            > Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
            > TYPE:CampaignTraits.
            >
            > Stefan.
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Related Lists
            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
            > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
            > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
            >
            > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
            > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
            >
            > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
            > (for new official data source development)
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Derrik H. Gilmore
            Heya: Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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              Heya:



              Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
              NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
              basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
              intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give you
              a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you can
              certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no other
              requirement.

              "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
              character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
              Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
              campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with another
              PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in any of
              the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is required a
              character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

              Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
              certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
              and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)



              ----

              Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

              "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
              the raid's $359.76 says: know your role."



              From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Stefan Radermacher
              Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 08:21
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





              On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:16:37 you wrote:
              > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are
              > just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic
              > traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.

              You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a

              campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those
              traits
              MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule I
              created
              a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure path player's
              guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general traits pool to
              this
              new pool.

              Stefan.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Stefan Radermacher
              ... Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the section named Campaign Traits it says: If your GM uses campaign traits, one
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
                > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
                > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                > other requirement.
                > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
                > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the
                section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types of
                traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original Character
                Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example, as
                mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull Player's
                Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                beginning at the campaign.

                Regards,
                Stefan.
              • Derrik H. Gilmore
                Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday and haven t gotten that far in the book yet, I m still giddy about the class/race
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 3, 2010
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                  Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday
                  and haven't gotten that far in the book yet, I'm still giddy about the
                  class/race options =)



                  As for taking the campaign traits for later characters, you can always
                  adjust the back-story for the trait so that it makes more sense while
                  leaving the bonus intact - nur meine zwei pfennige =)

                  ----

                  Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

                  "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
                  the raid's $359.76 says know your role."



                  From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Stefan Radermacher
                  Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 19:42
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





                  On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                  > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits
                  are
                  > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                  > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They
                  primary
                  > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                  > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                  > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                  > other requirement.
                  > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                  > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new
                  campaign.
                  > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                  > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                  > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                  > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                  > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                  Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the

                  section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                  "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                  campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types
                  of
                  traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original
                  Character
                  Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                  > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                  > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                  > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                  Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example,
                  as
                  mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull
                  Player's
                  Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                  beginning at the campaign.

                  Regards,
                  Stefan.



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                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3234 - Release Date: 11/02/10



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