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Re: [pcgen] Kingmaker Campaign Traits

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    ... Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to http://pastebin.org? Stefan.
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 1, 2010
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      On Monday 01 November 2010 17:13:09 AndrewW wrote:
      > Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player's
      > Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I've removed the
      > 'No Traits' trait from the character...is there something else I'm
      > missing?

      Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to
      http://pastebin.org?

      Stefan.
    • Andrew Wardell
      I couldn t get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png The only source that shows
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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        I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
        http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png

        The only source that shows is the APG.



        I've verified that the Kingmaker Player's Guide has loaded, as I can see
        Thylacine and Elk as potential Animal Companions.



        Any assistance would be appreciated.





        From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Stefan Radermacher
        Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:45 PM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Kingmaker Campaign Traits





        On Monday 01 November 2010 17:13:09 AndrewW wrote:
        > Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player's
        > Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I've removed the
        > 'No Traits' trait from the character...is there something else I'm
        > missing?

        Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to
        http://pastebin.org?

        Stefan.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stefan Radermacher
        ... I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch to that
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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          On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
          > I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
          > http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png

          I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
          implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
          to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
          had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.

          Regards,
          Stefan.
        • gjorbjond
          It s my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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            It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.


            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
            > > I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
            > > http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png
            >
            > I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
            > implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
            > to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
            > had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Stefan.
            >
          • Stefan Radermacher
            ... You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those traits
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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              On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:16:37 you wrote:
              > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are
              > just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic
              > traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.

              You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a
              campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those traits
              MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule I created
              a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure path player's
              guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general traits pool to this
              new pool.

              Stefan.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stefan Radermacher
              ... I think I know what the problem is. Besides the fact that the the Traits categories were messed up a bit, the implementation relied on the fact that the
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:53:40 Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                > I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
                > implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you
                > switch to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is
                > not what I had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.

                I think I know what the problem is. Besides the fact that the the Traits
                categories were messed up a bit, the implementation relied on the fact that
                the default character kits in the Kingmaker dataset were able to override
                those from the Trait Web Enhancement dataset due to the fact of being newer.
                Using the APG dataset instead this no longer works, as the APG is now the
                newer source and so the default does not get overridden by the special case.
                I'll have to think about that.

                I guess the duplicate choosuing algorithm should look at source rank first,
                and only if they are equal use the source date.

                Stefan.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David R. Bender
                Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is. If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular trait. I would rather have them as
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                  Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.

                  If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                  trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                  abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                  that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:

                  ===============
                  # David R. Bender
                  CAMPAIGN:Campaign - Kingmaker
                  GAMEMODE:Pathfinder
                  RANK:6
                  TYPE:*Only load from here - Campaign files
                  #
                  # Pathfinder Final Ruleset
                  PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_rpg\core_rulebook\core_rulebook.pcc
                  # Pathfinder APG
                  PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_rpg\advanced_players_guide\advanded_players_guide.pcc
                  #
                  # PCGen item renamer (+x to front of weapon/armor)
                  PCC:@\d20ogl\pcgen\renamer\pcgen_ogc_renamer.pcc
                  #
                  # My stuff for Pathfinder
                  PCC:@\DRB-Data\Pathfinder\DRB-Pathfinder.pcc
                  #
                  # Paizo Kingmaker Player's Guide
                  PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_adventure_paths\kingmaker\kingmaker_players_guide\kingmaker_players_guide.pcc
                  #
                  #BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Favored Class|1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                  BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Campaign Traits|1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                  BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Traits|-1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                  ==========

                  Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                  to get the numbers to work out.

                  I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                  appropriate players guide and it works for that also.



                  David
                  Papa.DRB

                  Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                  My better half and me
                  <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                  Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                  On 11/2/2010 10:16 AM, gjorbjond wrote:
                  > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher<radermacher@...> wrote:
                  >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
                  >>> I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
                  >>> http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png
                  >> I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
                  >> implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
                  >> to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
                  >> had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >> Stefan.
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Related Lists
                  > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
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                  > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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                • Stefan Radermacher
                  ... It seems I m talking to myself a lot here today. :) Anyway, maybe the best solution is indeed to throw away the Campaign Traits category, that way the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                    On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:21:17 Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                    > You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in
                    > a campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those
                    > traits MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule
                    > I created a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure
                    > path player's guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general
                    > traits pool to this new pool.

                    It seems I'm talking to myself a lot here today. :)

                    Anyway, maybe the best solution is indeed to throw away the Campaign Traits
                    category, that way the duplicate override would no longer be necessary.

                    In fact, if a higher level character joins an adventure path later on, it
                    won't make much sense enforcing a Campaign trait. For example, considering the
                    campaign traits from Serpent's Skull, we see that they select a reason for a
                    new character to be on the ship at the start of the campaign. Later on, that
                    makes no sense for a new character who most probably has never even been on
                    the ship, so forcing him to take one campaign trait in this case really makes
                    no sense.

                    If I get no opposition on this here, I will adapt all relevant sets to remove
                    this category and sort the campaign traits into the general traits category.

                    Stefan.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stefan Radermacher
                    ... David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon as one of the Aadventure path player s guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                      On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:27:21 David R. Bender wrote:
                      > Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.
                      >
                      > If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                      > trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                      > abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                      > that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:

                      > Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                      > to get the numbers to work out.
                      >
                      > I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                      > appropriate players guide and it works for that also.

                      David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon
                      as one of the Aadventure path player's guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                      were changed from "two general traits" to "one general trait and one campaign
                      trait". However the traits categories have been moved about, even into the
                      core dataset, where they to not belong at all. These changes - and the fact
                      that the duplicate workout does not really work with the APG set - have messed
                      up the mechanism.

                      However, check out the mail I just wrote before this; I think it does in fact
                      make sense to remove that enforcing.

                      Stefan.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David R. Bender
                      Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no. David Papa.DRB Grognard
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                        Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                        enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.

                        David
                        Papa.DRB

                        Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                        My better half and me
                        <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                        Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                        On 11/2/2010 10:34 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                        > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:27:21 David R. Bender wrote:
                        >> Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.
                        >>
                        >> If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                        >> trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                        >> abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                        >> that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:
                        >> Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                        >> to get the numbers to work out.
                        >>
                        >> I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                        >> appropriate players guide and it works for that also.
                        > David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon
                        > as one of the Aadventure path player's guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                        > were changed from "two general traits" to "one general trait and one campaign
                        > trait". However the traits categories have been moved about, even into the
                        > core dataset, where they to not belong at all. These changes - and the fact
                        > that the duplicate workout does not really work with the APG set - have messed
                        > up the mechanism.
                        >
                        > However, check out the mail I just wrote before this; I think it does in fact
                        > make sense to remove that enforcing.
                        >
                        > Stefan.
                      • Stefan Radermacher
                        ... Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen t Skull party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent s Skull Player s
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                          On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                          > Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                          > enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.

                          Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                          say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                          Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?

                          Stefan.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David R. Bender
                          That is why I am not saying no. David Papa.DRB Grognard (definition 1) My better half and me
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                            That is why I am not saying no.

                            David
                            Papa.DRB

                            Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                            My better half and me
                            <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                            Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                            On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                            > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                            >> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                            >> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                            > Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                            > say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                            > Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                            >
                            > Stefan.
                          • Andrew Maitland
                            Hi, I m in agreement with Stefan, it s not up to us to enforce certain rules if there isn t an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM and
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                              Hi,

                              I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if there isn't an easy
                              bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM and players to police themselves.

                              AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue of depending on which
                              source combo you'd get issues.

                              I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant Traits *ARE* being loaded with
                              the correct sources, and that's ALL that matters to me.


                              On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                              > That is why I am not saying no.
                              >
                              > David
                              > Papa.DRB
                              >
                              > Grognard (definition 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                              > My better half and me
                              > <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                              > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                              >
                              > On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                              >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                              >>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                              >>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                              >> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                              >> say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                              >> Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                              >>
                              >> Stefan.
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Related Lists
                              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                              > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                              > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                              > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                              >
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                              > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                              >
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                              > (for new official data source development)
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stefan Radermacher
                              Ok, I m changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting No Traits , as
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
                                traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
                                as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
                                are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
                                NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
                                this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

                                I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
                                standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

                                Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
                                traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
                                showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
                                setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
                                Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
                                to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
                                won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
                                idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
                                Though their use will really be minimal.

                                Regards,
                                Stefan.

                                On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                > Hi,
                                >
                                > I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
                                > there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
                                > and players to police themselves.
                                >
                                > AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
                                > of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
                                >
                                > I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
                                > Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
                                > matters to me.
                                >
                                > On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                > > That is why I am not saying no.
                                > >
                                > > David
                                > > Papa.DRB
                                > >
                                > > Grognard (definition
                                > > 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
                                > > me
                                > > <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                                > > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                > >
                                > > On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                > >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                                > >>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                                > >>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                                > >>
                                > >> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
                                > >> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
                                > >> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                                > >>
                                > >> Stefan.
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Related Lists
                                > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                > > PCGen's Online Docs:
                                > > http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
                                > > Autobuilds and Docs:
                                > > http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                > >
                                > > PCGen List File Help:
                                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
                                > > creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                > >
                                > > PCGen Experimental:
                                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
                                > > data source development)
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Andrew Maitland
                                Hi, ... Sounds like a good plan. ... I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards. ... Leaving them in should be fine.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                  Hi,




                                  On 11/2/2010 3:58 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  > Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
                                  > traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
                                  > as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
                                  > are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
                                  > NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
                                  > this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

                                  Sounds like a good plan.

                                  > I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
                                  > standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

                                  I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards.

                                  > Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
                                  > traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
                                  > showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
                                  > setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
                                  > Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
                                  > to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
                                  > won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
                                  > idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
                                  > Though their use will really be minimal.

                                  Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use SORTKEY to put the sample
                                  at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing
                                  wrong with that. I was going through and entering ALL the missing items.

                                  Cheers,

                                  > Regards,
                                  > Stefan.
                                  >
                                  > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                  >> Hi,
                                  >>
                                  >> I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
                                  >> there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
                                  >> and players to police themselves.
                                  >>
                                  >> AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
                                  >> of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
                                  >>
                                  >> I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
                                  >> Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
                                  >> matters to me.
                                  >>
                                  >> On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>> That is why I am not saying no.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> David
                                  >>> Papa.DRB
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Grognard (definition
                                  >>> 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
                                  >>> me
                                  >>> <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                                  >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  >>>> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                                  >>>>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                                  >>>>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                                  >>>> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
                                  >>>> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
                                  >>>> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Stefan.
                                  >>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Related Lists
                                  >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >>> PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                  >>> PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                  >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  >>> PCGen's Online Docs:
                                  >>> http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
                                  >>> Autobuilds and Docs:
                                  >>> http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                  >>>
                                  >>> PCGen List File Help:
                                  >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
                                  >>> creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >>>
                                  >>> PCGen Experimental:
                                  >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
                                  >>> data source development)
                                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Related Lists
                                  > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                  > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                  > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                                  > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                  >
                                  > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                  > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  >
                                  > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                  > (for new official data source development)
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Stefan Radermacher
                                  ... Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of TYPE:CampaignTraits. Stefan.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                    On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                    > Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
                                    > SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
                                    > can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
                                    > going through and entering ALL the missing items.

                                    Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
                                    TYPE:CampaignTraits.

                                    Stefan.
                                  • Andrew Maitland
                                    Hi, I m fine with that. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur Unique Title
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                      Hi,

                                      I'm fine with that.


                                      On 11/2/2010 4:35 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                      > On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                      >> Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
                                      >> SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
                                      >> can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
                                      >> going through and entering ALL the missing items.
                                      > Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
                                      > TYPE:CampaignTraits.
                                      >
                                      > Stefan.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Related Lists
                                      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                      > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                      > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                      > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                      > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                                      > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                      >
                                      > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                      > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                      >
                                      > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                      > (for new official data source development)
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      --
                                      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Derrik H. Gilmore
                                      Heya: Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                        Heya:



                                        Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
                                        NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                        basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
                                        intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give you
                                        a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you can
                                        certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no other
                                        requirement.

                                        "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                        character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
                                        Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                        campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with another
                                        PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in any of
                                        the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is required a
                                        character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                        Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                        certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                        and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)



                                        ----

                                        Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

                                        "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
                                        the raid's $359.76 says: know your role."



                                        From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        Stefan Radermacher
                                        Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 08:21
                                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





                                        On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:16:37 you wrote:
                                        > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are
                                        > just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic
                                        > traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.

                                        You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a

                                        campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those
                                        traits
                                        MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule I
                                        created
                                        a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure path player's
                                        guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general traits pool to
                                        this
                                        new pool.

                                        Stefan.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                      • Stefan Radermacher
                                        ... Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the section named Campaign Traits it says: If your GM uses campaign traits, one
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
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                                          On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                                          > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
                                          > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                          > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
                                          > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                                          > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                                          > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                                          > other requirement.
                                          > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                          > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
                                          > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                          > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                                          > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                                          > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                                          > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                          Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the
                                          section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                                          "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                                          campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types of
                                          traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original Character
                                          Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                                          > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                          > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                          > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                                          Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example, as
                                          mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull Player's
                                          Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                                          beginning at the campaign.

                                          Regards,
                                          Stefan.
                                        • Derrik H. Gilmore
                                          Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday and haven t gotten that far in the book yet, I m still giddy about the class/race
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 3, 2010
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                                            Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday
                                            and haven't gotten that far in the book yet, I'm still giddy about the
                                            class/race options =)



                                            As for taking the campaign traits for later characters, you can always
                                            adjust the back-story for the trait so that it makes more sense while
                                            leaving the bonus intact - nur meine zwei pfennige =)

                                            ----

                                            Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

                                            "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
                                            the raid's $359.76 says know your role."



                                            From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                            Stefan Radermacher
                                            Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 19:42
                                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





                                            On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                                            > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits
                                            are
                                            > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                            > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They
                                            primary
                                            > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                                            > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                                            > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                                            > other requirement.
                                            > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                            > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new
                                            campaign.
                                            > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                            > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                                            > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                                            > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                                            > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                            Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the

                                            section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                                            "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                                            campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types
                                            of
                                            traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original
                                            Character
                                            Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                                            > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                            > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                            > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                                            Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example,
                                            as
                                            mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull
                                            Player's
                                            Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                                            beginning at the campaign.

                                            Regards,
                                            Stefan.



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                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                            Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3234 - Release Date: 11/02/10



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