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Kingmaker Campaign Traits

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  • AndrewW
    Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player s Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I ve removed the No Traits
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 1, 2010
      Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player's Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I've removed the 'No Traits' trait from the character...is there something else I'm missing?
    • Stefan Radermacher
      ... Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to http://pastebin.org? Stefan.
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 1, 2010
        On Monday 01 November 2010 17:13:09 AndrewW wrote:
        > Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player's
        > Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I've removed the
        > 'No Traits' trait from the character...is there something else I'm
        > missing?

        Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to
        http://pastebin.org?

        Stefan.
      • Andrew Wardell
        I couldn t get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png The only source that shows
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
          I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
          http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png

          The only source that shows is the APG.



          I've verified that the Kingmaker Player's Guide has loaded, as I can see
          Thylacine and Elk as potential Animal Companions.



          Any assistance would be appreciated.





          From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Stefan Radermacher
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 12:45 PM
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Kingmaker Campaign Traits





          On Monday 01 November 2010 17:13:09 AndrewW wrote:
          > Using the 5.16.4 release candidtate, when I include the Kingmaker Player's
          > Guide, I still do not see any of the campaign traits. I've removed the
          > 'No Traits' trait from the character...is there something else I'm
          > missing?

          Sounds weird. Can you upload a screenshot of the Traits subtab to
          http://pastebin.org?

          Stefan.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stefan Radermacher
          ... I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch to that
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
            On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
            > I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
            > http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png

            I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
            implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
            to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
            had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.

            Regards,
            Stefan.
          • gjorbjond
            It s my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
              It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.


              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
              > > I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
              > > http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png
              >
              > I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
              > implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
              > to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
              > had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Stefan.
              >
            • Stefan Radermacher
              ... You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those traits
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:16:37 you wrote:
                > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are
                > just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic
                > traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.

                You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a
                campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those traits
                MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule I created
                a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure path player's
                guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general traits pool to this
                new pool.

                Stefan.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stefan Radermacher
                ... I think I know what the problem is. Besides the fact that the the Traits categories were messed up a bit, the implementation relied on the fact that the
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                  On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:53:40 Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                  > I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
                  > implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you
                  > switch to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is
                  > not what I had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.

                  I think I know what the problem is. Besides the fact that the the Traits
                  categories were messed up a bit, the implementation relied on the fact that
                  the default character kits in the Kingmaker dataset were able to override
                  those from the Trait Web Enhancement dataset due to the fact of being newer.
                  Using the APG dataset instead this no longer works, as the APG is now the
                  newer source and so the default does not get overridden by the special case.
                  I'll have to think about that.

                  I guess the duplicate choosuing algorithm should look at source rank first,
                  and only if they are equal use the source date.

                  Stefan.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David R. Bender
                  Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is. If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular trait. I would rather have them as
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                    Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.

                    If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                    trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                    abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                    that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:

                    ===============
                    # David R. Bender
                    CAMPAIGN:Campaign - Kingmaker
                    GAMEMODE:Pathfinder
                    RANK:6
                    TYPE:*Only load from here - Campaign files
                    #
                    # Pathfinder Final Ruleset
                    PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_rpg\core_rulebook\core_rulebook.pcc
                    # Pathfinder APG
                    PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_rpg\advanced_players_guide\advanded_players_guide.pcc
                    #
                    # PCGen item renamer (+x to front of weapon/armor)
                    PCC:@\d20ogl\pcgen\renamer\pcgen_ogc_renamer.pcc
                    #
                    # My stuff for Pathfinder
                    PCC:@\DRB-Data\Pathfinder\DRB-Pathfinder.pcc
                    #
                    # Paizo Kingmaker Player's Guide
                    PCC:@\alpha\paizo\pathfinder_adventure_paths\kingmaker\kingmaker_players_guide\kingmaker_players_guide.pcc
                    #
                    #BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Favored Class|1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                    BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Campaign Traits|1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                    BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Traits|-1|PREPCLEVEL:MIN=1
                    ==========

                    Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                    to get the numbers to work out.

                    I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                    appropriate players guide and it works for that also.



                    David
                    Papa.DRB

                    Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                    My better half and me
                    <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                    Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                    On 11/2/2010 10:16 AM, gjorbjond wrote:
                    > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher<radermacher@...> wrote:
                    >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 14:45:06 Andrew Wardell wrote:
                    >>> I couldn't get it to upload to pastebin, but the screenshot can be found at
                    >>> http://kingmaker.frozenstar.net/PCGen5164RC2_Traits.png
                    >> I see now what you. It seems something has changed since I originally
                    >> implemented that. You can currently access the Campaign traits if you switch
                    >> to that view using the dropdown box in the lower right, but that is not what I
                    >> had in mind. I have to check out what has changed.
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >> Stefan.
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Related Lists
                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                    > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                    > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
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                    >
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                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                    >
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                    > (for new official data source development)
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Stefan Radermacher
                    ... It seems I m talking to myself a lot here today. :) Anyway, maybe the best solution is indeed to throw away the Campaign Traits category, that way the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                      On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:21:17 Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                      > You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in
                      > a campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those
                      > traits MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule
                      > I created a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure
                      > path player's guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general
                      > traits pool to this new pool.

                      It seems I'm talking to myself a lot here today. :)

                      Anyway, maybe the best solution is indeed to throw away the Campaign Traits
                      category, that way the duplicate override would no longer be necessary.

                      In fact, if a higher level character joins an adventure path later on, it
                      won't make much sense enforcing a Campaign trait. For example, considering the
                      campaign traits from Serpent's Skull, we see that they select a reason for a
                      new character to be on the ship at the start of the campaign. Later on, that
                      makes no sense for a new character who most probably has never even been on
                      the ship, so forcing him to take one campaign trait in this case really makes
                      no sense.

                      If I get no opposition on this here, I will adapt all relevant sets to remove
                      this category and sort the campaign traits into the general traits category.

                      Stefan.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stefan Radermacher
                      ... David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon as one of the Aadventure path player s guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                        On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:27:21 David R. Bender wrote:
                        > Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.
                        >
                        > If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                        > trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                        > abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                        > that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:

                        > Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                        > to get the numbers to work out.
                        >
                        > I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                        > appropriate players guide and it works for that also.

                        David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon
                        as one of the Aadventure path player's guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                        were changed from "two general traits" to "one general trait and one campaign
                        trait". However the traits categories have been moved about, even into the
                        core dataset, where they to not belong at all. These changes - and the fact
                        that the duplicate workout does not really work with the APG set - have messed
                        up the mechanism.

                        However, check out the mail I just wrote before this; I think it does in fact
                        make sense to remove that enforcing.

                        Stefan.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David R. Bender
                        Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no. David Papa.DRB Grognard
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                          Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                          enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.

                          David
                          Papa.DRB

                          Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                          My better half and me
                          <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                          Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                          On 11/2/2010 10:34 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                          > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:27:21 David R. Bender wrote:
                          >> Hmm.. That is not what my understanding is.
                          >>
                          >> If you are going to use Campaign Traits, you get 1 of them and 1 regular
                          >> trait. I would rather have them as separate lines. There is an
                          >> abilitypool for them, but it is not being added to. This is my .pcc file
                          >> that I will be using for when I run Kingmaker for my group:
                          >> Notice that I had to add 1 to Campaign Traits and subtract 1 from Traits
                          >> to get the numbers to work out.
                          >>
                          >> I also have the same file for Serpent's Skull except pointing to the
                          >> appropriate players guide and it works for that also.
                          > David, that is how it originally woirked when I first implemeted that. As soon
                          > as one of the Aadventure path player's guide datasets was loaded, the slots
                          > were changed from "two general traits" to "one general trait and one campaign
                          > trait". However the traits categories have been moved about, even into the
                          > core dataset, where they to not belong at all. These changes - and the fact
                          > that the duplicate workout does not really work with the APG set - have messed
                          > up the mechanism.
                          >
                          > However, check out the mail I just wrote before this; I think it does in fact
                          > make sense to remove that enforcing.
                          >
                          > Stefan.
                        • Stefan Radermacher
                          ... Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen t Skull party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent s Skull Player s
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                            On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                            > Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                            > enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.

                            Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                            say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                            Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?

                            Stefan.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David R. Bender
                            That is why I am not saying no. David Papa.DRB Grognard (definition 1) My better half and me
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                              That is why I am not saying no.

                              David
                              Papa.DRB

                              Grognard (definition 1) <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                              My better half and me
                              <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

                              On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                              > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                              >> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                              >> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                              > Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                              > say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                              > Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                              >
                              > Stefan.
                            • Andrew Maitland
                              Hi, I m in agreement with Stefan, it s not up to us to enforce certain rules if there isn t an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM and
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                Hi,

                                I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if there isn't an easy
                                bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM and players to police themselves.

                                AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue of depending on which
                                source combo you'd get issues.

                                I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant Traits *ARE* being loaded with
                                the correct sources, and that's ALL that matters to me.


                                On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                > That is why I am not saying no.
                                >
                                > David
                                > Papa.DRB
                                >
                                > Grognard (definition 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html>
                                > My better half and me
                                > <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                                > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                >
                                > On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                                >>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                                >>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                                >> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull party in,
                                >> say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's Skull Player's
                                >> Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                                >>
                                >> Stefan.
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Related Lists
                                > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                                > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                >
                                > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                >
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                                > (for new official data source development)
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Stefan Radermacher
                                Ok, I m changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting No Traits , as
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                  Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
                                  traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
                                  as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
                                  are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
                                  NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
                                  this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

                                  I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
                                  standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

                                  Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
                                  traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
                                  showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
                                  setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
                                  Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
                                  to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
                                  won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
                                  idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
                                  Though their use will really be minimal.

                                  Regards,
                                  Stefan.

                                  On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
                                  > there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
                                  > and players to police themselves.
                                  >
                                  > AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
                                  > of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
                                  >
                                  > I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
                                  > Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
                                  > matters to me.
                                  >
                                  > On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                  > > That is why I am not saying no.
                                  > >
                                  > > David
                                  > > Papa.DRB
                                  > >
                                  > > Grognard (definition
                                  > > 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
                                  > > me
                                  > > <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                                  > > Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                  > >
                                  > > On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  > >> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                                  > >>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                                  > >>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
                                  > >> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
                                  > >> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Stefan.
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Related Lists
                                  > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  > > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                  > > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                  > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                  > > PCGen's Online Docs:
                                  > > http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
                                  > > Autobuilds and Docs:
                                  > > http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                  > >
                                  > > PCGen List File Help:
                                  > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
                                  > > creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                  > >
                                  > > PCGen Experimental:
                                  > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
                                  > > data source development)
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Andrew Maitland
                                  Hi, ... Sounds like a good plan. ... I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards. ... Leaving them in should be fine.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                    Hi,




                                    On 11/2/2010 3:58 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    > Ok, I'm changing the sets to remove the separate ability category for campaign
                                    > traits. I think I will also abandon the concept of preselecting "No Traits",
                                    > as this is clearly non-intuitive for users. The way it is implemented, Traits
                                    > are only awarded to player character races, so monsters are not affected, only
                                    > NPCs, and a GM user can then select the No Traits ability manually. I think
                                    > this is the better solution and users will no longer wonder what to do.

                                    Sounds like a good plan.

                                    > I'd also like to change the keys of the traits to conform to the usual
                                    > standards for keys, i.e. "Foo ~ Trait" instead of "Foo_Trait".

                                    I was wondering why there was a difference, but I just tried to match the standards.

                                    > Ah. and another thing. I'm not too happy of including the sample campaign
                                    > traits from the APG in the APG dataset. Including them will result in them
                                    > showing up, for example, as campaign traits in a Kingmaker Adventure Path
                                    > setup, even if they are not available or meaningful for that campaign.
                                    > Basically they are just included in the book for GMs as an inspiration on how
                                    > to create their own campaign traits, not as real gaming material, because they
                                    > won't be applicable to 99% of all campaigns. I'd leave them out, but another
                                    > idea of how to handle them if everybody wants them included, would be nice.
                                    > Though their use will really be minimal.

                                    Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use SORTKEY to put the sample
                                    at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing
                                    wrong with that. I was going through and entering ALL the missing items.

                                    Cheers,

                                    > Regards,
                                    > Stefan.
                                    >
                                    > On Tuesday 02 November 2010 22:19:46 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                    >> Hi,
                                    >>
                                    >> I'm in agreement with Stefan, it's not up to us to enforce certain rules if
                                    >> there isn't an easy bypass. One General Pool, and leave it up to the GM
                                    >> and players to police themselves.
                                    >>
                                    >> AS to the pools merging into the Core, I think that was a Logistics issue
                                    >> of depending on which source combo you'd get issues.
                                    >>
                                    >> I don't care if the ABILITYCATEGORY is made in the core, the relevant
                                    >> Traits *ARE* being loaded with the correct sources, and that's ALL that
                                    >> matters to me.
                                    >>
                                    >> On 11/2/2010 8:19 AM, David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>> That is why I am not saying no.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> David
                                    >>> Papa.DRB
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Grognard (definition
                                    >>> 1)<http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Grognard.html> My better half and
                                    >>> me
                                    >>> <http://mysite.verizon.net/vze16ni4g/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
                                    >>> Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> On 11/2/2010 11:14 AM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    >>>> On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:40:54 David R. Bender wrote:
                                    >>>>> Yes, I just read that post. Not sure that I agree with removing the
                                    >>>>> enforcement, but I am not so opposed that I would say no.
                                    >>>> Would you want to force a new character joining your Serpen't Skull
                                    >>>> party in, say, Chapter 3 to take a campaign trait from the Serpent's
                                    >>>> Skull Player's Guide, when he most probably never was on that ship?
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Stefan.
                                    >>> ------------------------------------
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Related Lists
                                    >>> PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                    >>> PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                    >>> PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                    >>> PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                    >>> PCGen's Online Docs:
                                    >>> http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html PCGen's Backup
                                    >>> Autobuilds and Docs:
                                    >>> http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                    >>>
                                    >>> PCGen List File Help:
                                    >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/ (for assistance in
                                    >>> creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                    >>>
                                    >>> PCGen Experimental:
                                    >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/ (for new official
                                    >>> data source development)
                                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Related Lists
                                    > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                    > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                    > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                    > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                    > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                                    > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                    >
                                    > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                    > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                    >
                                    > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                    > (for new official data source development)
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Stefan Radermacher
                                    ... Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of TYPE:CampaignTraits. Stefan.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                      On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                      > Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
                                      > SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
                                      > can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
                                      > going through and entering ALL the missing items.

                                      Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
                                      TYPE:CampaignTraits.

                                      Stefan.
                                    • Andrew Maitland
                                      Hi, I m fine with that. ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur Unique Title
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                        Hi,

                                        I'm fine with that.


                                        On 11/2/2010 4:35 PM, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                        > On Wednesday 03 November 2010 00:26:35 Andrew Maitland wrote:
                                        >> Leaving them in should be fine. Once we move to trunk, we can simply use
                                        >> SORTKEY to put the sample at the bottom of the list. And yes, homebrews
                                        >> can model theirs after the existing ones. Nothing wrong with that. I was
                                        >> going through and entering ALL the missing items.
                                        > Maybe we can use TYPE:SampleCampaignTraits with those instead of
                                        > TYPE:CampaignTraits.
                                        >
                                        > Stefan.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Related Lists
                                        > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                        > PCGen's Wiki: http://wiki.pcgen.org/
                                        > PCGen's Roadmap: http://wiki.pcgen.org/index.php?title=Roadmap
                                        > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                        > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/index.html
                                        > PCGen's Backup Autobuilds and Docs: http://pcgen.akozakis.id.au/autobuilds/download.html
                                        >
                                        > PCGen List File Help: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                        > (for assistance in creating new homebrew or official list files)
                                        >
                                        > PCGen Experimental: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/
                                        > (for new official data source development)
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Derrik H. Gilmore
                                        Heya: Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                          Heya:



                                          Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
                                          NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                          basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
                                          intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give you
                                          a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you can
                                          certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no other
                                          requirement.

                                          "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                          character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
                                          Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                          campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with another
                                          PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in any of
                                          the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is required a
                                          character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                          Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                          certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                          and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)



                                          ----

                                          Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

                                          "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
                                          the raid's $359.76 says: know your role."



                                          From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          Stefan Radermacher
                                          Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 08:21
                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





                                          On Tuesday 02 November 2010 15:16:37 you wrote:
                                          > It's my understanding that the campaign traits and noble born traits are
                                          > just traits and should pull from the same ability pool as the basic
                                          > traits. You only get 2 traits in a typical game, regardless of type.

                                          You are correct basically. However, the rules indicate that if you play in a

                                          campaing with campaign traits, like an adventue path, that one of those
                                          traits
                                          MUST chosen from the campaign traits. In order to enforce that rule I
                                          created
                                          a separate ability category Campaign Traits in the adventure path player's
                                          guide datasets and shifted one trait slot from the general traits pool to
                                          this
                                          new pool.

                                          Stefan.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                        • Stefan Radermacher
                                          ... Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the section named Campaign Traits it says: If your GM uses campaign traits, one
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 2, 2010
                                            On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                                            > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits are
                                            > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                            > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They primary
                                            > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                                            > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                                            > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                                            > other requirement.
                                            > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                            > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new campaign.
                                            > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                            > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                                            > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                                            > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                                            > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                            Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the
                                            section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                                            "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                                            campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types of
                                            traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original Character
                                            Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                                            > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                            > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                            > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                                            Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example, as
                                            mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull Player's
                                            Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                                            beginning at the campaign.

                                            Regards,
                                            Stefan.
                                          • Derrik H. Gilmore
                                            Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday and haven t gotten that far in the book yet, I m still giddy about the class/race
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 3, 2010
                                              Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - though I just got the APG on Monday
                                              and haven't gotten that far in the book yet, I'm still giddy about the
                                              class/race options =)



                                              As for taking the campaign traits for later characters, you can always
                                              adjust the back-story for the trait so that it makes more sense while
                                              leaving the bonus intact - nur meine zwei pfennige =)

                                              ----

                                              Derrik "Gil" Gilmore

                                              "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of
                                              the raid's $359.76 says know your role."



                                              From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                              Stefan Radermacher
                                              Sent: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010 19:42
                                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: Kingmaker Campaign Traits





                                              On Wednesday 03 November 2010 02:27:06 Derrik H. Gilmore wrote:
                                              > Quick FYI. When starting a new campaign/Adventure Path, Campaign Traits
                                              are
                                              > NOT a requirement. Like any other trait they are an optional component and
                                              > basically give you one more category of traits to choose from. They
                                              primary
                                              > intention is to tie you closer to the beginning of the campaign and give
                                              > you a reason for your character to get involved in the campaign. Now, you
                                              > can certainly make it a requirement for your campaign, but there is no
                                              > other requirement.
                                              > "Campaign traits are tailored to a specific Adventure Path, and give your
                                              > character a built-in reason to begin the first adventure in a new
                                              campaign.
                                              > Some campaign traits also grant teamwork benefits if you choose to begin a
                                              > campaign with your character having a pre-existing relationship with
                                              > another PC." And if you continue reading the section on campaign traits in
                                              > any of the Adventure Paths out there, you'll see nowhere that it is
                                              > required a character take a campaign trait - though certainly advisable.

                                              Your quote is correct, however there is more. Check out APG page 330, in the

                                              section named "Campaign Traits" it says:

                                              "If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a
                                              campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types
                                              of
                                              traits." You will find the words to the same effect in the original
                                              Character
                                              Traits web enhancement for the Pathfinder RPG on page 3, upper left.

                                              > Also once a new character joins the campaign at a later date, s/he can
                                              > certainly take an existing campaign trait if so desired, though the player
                                              > and GM should probably work on adjusting the wording somewhat =)

                                              Depending on the campaign that might noit really makes sense, for example,
                                              as
                                              mentioned earlier with the campaign traits from then Serpent's Skull
                                              Player's
                                              Guide. Those are meaningless for a character that doesn't start out at the
                                              beginning at the campaign.

                                              Regards,
                                              Stefan.



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                                              Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3234 - Release Date: 11/02/10



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