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Re: [Eddy] Re: Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

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  • Andrew Maitland
    Eddy, I m confused. I ve looked in the Bestiary, and I ve looked in the Core Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I don t see any
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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      Eddy,

      I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
      Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
      don't see any actual write up of them. I see the exact location where
      the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
      mention this being from Weapon Finesse.

      So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
      you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
      the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.

      I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
      like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.


      On 6/3/2010 6:01 AM, Eddy Anthony wrote:
      > On 6/3/10 6:46 AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
      >
      >> Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
      >>
      >> BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
      >> BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
      >>
      >> In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
      >>
      >> We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
      >>
      >> Anyways, the fix is committed.
      >>
      >>
      > Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don't have an ability that
      > mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You've now got three
      > bonuses in different places all doing the same thing.
      >
      > I think the best solution here is to add the default feats and skills to
      > the familiar kits so when you create one you get the stats from the book
      > right from the start. You can still customize it by removing the
      > defaults and this will alleviate the confusion.
      >
      >

      --
      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Saxum Caribetum
      ... You won t find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, Bat, Dire and Bat, Swarm leaving one wondering where Bat or Bat, Familair went... nor C-forCat nor the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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        On 03/06/2010 19:37, Andrew Maitland wrote:
        > Eddy,
        >
        > I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
        > Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
        > don't see any actual write up of them.

        You won't find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, "Bat, Dire" and "Bat,
        Swarm" leaving one wondering where "Bat" or "Bat, Familair went... nor
        C-forCat nor the rest...

        Animals "most commonly used as familairs" - ie those listed in PFRPG are
        gathered together under F-for-Familiar in the PFB.

        > I see the exact location where
        > the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
        > mention this being from Weapon Finesse.
        >
        > So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
        > you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
        > the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.
        >
        > I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
        > like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.
        >
        >

        I have my books out again -

        Core PFRPG gives modifications to any "normal, unmodified animal" -
        (with an unwritten assumption that only small weak ones can be used -
        confirmed but not categorized by the Improved Familiar Feat.) - but it
        lacks the descriptions of the base animal statistics, and refers the
        reader to the PFB

        PF Bestiary lists a sample set of normal, unmodified animals, matching
        the list in the PFRPG: "presented here are the base animal statistics
        for all of the most commonly used familiars" and "these statistics can
        also be used for normal animals as well".

        I think it is clear from this that

        1. PFB lists normal animals - not actual familiars
        2. a PFB "familiar" base animal becomes an actual Familiar for a
        Wizard by applying the rules and level-dependent mods in PFRPG
        Wizard section.


        the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
        different Feats from the ones listed... so

        1. most but not all of the 1HD normal animals in the Familiars block
        have "Weapon Finesse" as their 1HD Feat
        2. actual Familiars are modified by a rule which says "use
        max(Dex,Str) for natural weapons"
        3. ergo: actual Familiars might have Weapon Finesse anyway (eg monkey
        with a dagger) or may have an alternative Feat.


        PFB makes explicit a separate rule "small animals like these use Dex to
        modify Climb and Swim checks".


        --
        Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
        ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
        Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
        Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Eddy Anthony
        ... That may be so but a base familiar must be a normal, unmodified animal . I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as presented in the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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          On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
          > the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
          > different Feats from the ones listed... so
          >

          That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
          animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
          presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.

          --
          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
          ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
          ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
        • Saxum Caribetum
          ... we are drifting into I interpret the rules this way discussions, which I d rather not do here... However, I take the statement ... to mean no deliberate
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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            On 03/06/2010 22:50, Eddy Anthony wrote:
            > On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
            >
            >> the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
            >> different Feats from the ones listed... so
            >>
            >>
            > That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
            > animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
            > presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.
            >
            >
            we are drifting into "I interpret the rules this way" discussions, which
            I'd rather not do here...

            However, I take the statement
            > Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal
            > companion cannot also function as a familiar.
            to mean no deliberate modifications outside the normal range of
            variations of creatures. Templates, Animal Companion, already-Familiar -
            are ruled out.
            As a DM using PCGen, I consider that all Bestiary creatures have some
            variation in them, and am often willing to listen to players, or even
            suggest things to them.

            As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
            reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
            representing natural variation within the creature line.
            So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
            (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
            beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
            (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
            candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)



            A Toad has arms, and gums, so in principle has an unarmed attack (weedy
            and normally not worth mentioning). A Familiar Toad has Int and
            potentially has magic buffs and magic items, so might have a worthwhile
            and dangerous attack.
            /Magic fang /and /Greater Magic Fang/ boost "one natural weapon or
            unarmed strike".
            Touch (spell) attacks can be delivered by Familiars.
            ... so I think it matters that a normal Toad does *not* have Weapon
            Finesse, but *still* has the familiar rule of "use max(dex,str)".

            You may argue that a Toad is _listed_ with no natural weapon, so can
            never benefit from the familiar rule on natural weapons;
            I can argue that a living toad eats prey that it catches - as do frogs
            and newts - and so they have a natural weapon, even one so weak as
            normally nor worth mentioning.
            But now the two of us have drifted well out of PCGen and into the realm
            of opinion, and of campaign judgements.

            Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
            game" discussion for the Paizo forums?


            --
            Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
            ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
            Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
            Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eddy Anthony
            ... I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things as they
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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              On 6/4/10 3:10 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
              > As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
              > reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
              > representing natural variation within the creature line.
              >

              I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the
              rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things
              as they wish.

              > So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
              > (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
              > beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
              > (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
              > candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)
              >

              We haven't crossed that line. What we've done is to set the kit that
              sets the base stats for new familiars to also set the default skills and
              feats from the book. A kit only adds stuff that you would normally do
              manually, anything a kit adds you can manually remove. There is nothing
              preventing you from removing those feats and skill points (and changing
              the stats for that matter) and reallocating them as you wish once the
              familiar has been created. If you want to give your familiars Weapon
              Finesse as a bonus feat you can just add 1 to the number of feats field
              and do so.

              > Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
              > game" discussion for the Paizo forums?
              >

              No problem, I started a thread over there. Unfortunately you don't
              always get a definitive official answer there. However it is not
              inappropriate to have this kind of discussion here since we are
              discussing how the data gets implemented.

              http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/familiarsAndWeaponFinesse

              --
              ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
              ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
              ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
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