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Re: [Eddy] Re: Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

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  • Saxum Caribetum
    ... would that allow users to create custom natural weapons, and equip them? -- Neil Taylor Creo Imaginem Mente ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)-
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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      On 03/06/2010 11:46, Andrew Maitland wrote:
      > Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
      >
      > BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
      > BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
      >
      > In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
      >


      > We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
      >
      >
      would that allow users to create custom natural weapons, and equip them?

      --
      Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
      ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
      Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
      Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/
    • Eddy Anthony
      ... I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is just
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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        On 6/3/10 3:03 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
        >> > Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
        >> > Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
        >> > don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
        >> > want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
        >> > correct.
        >> >
        >>
        > strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex& Str" to all but only Natural
        > weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
        > a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)
        >
        > PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars
        >
        >
        >> > /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
        >> > his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
        >> > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
        >> > Strength
        >> > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
        >> > modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
        >> > attack bonus with natural weapons.
        >> >
        >> > Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
        >>

        I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have
        Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is
        just explaining how that is applied and of coarse the only mention
        natural weapons because they are animals, they only use natural weapons.

        --
        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
        ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
        ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
      • Eddy Anthony
        ... Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don t have an ability that mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You ve now got three bonuses in
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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          On 6/3/10 6:46 AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
          > Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
          >
          > BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
          > BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
          >
          > In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
          >
          > We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
          >
          > Anyways, the fix is committed.
          >

          Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don't have an ability that
          mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You've now got three
          bonuses in different places all doing the same thing.

          I think the best solution here is to add the default feats and skills to
          the familiar kits so when you create one you get the stats from the book
          right from the start. You can still customize it by removing the
          defaults and this will alleviate the confusion.

          --
          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
          ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
          ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
        • Saxum Caribetum
          ... except... * Toad lacks Weapon Finesse, but the core rule would still apply to a toad familiar? * the listed creatures are the base wild animals, not actual
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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            On 03/06/2010 14:01, Eddy Anthony wrote:
            > On 6/3/10 3:03 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
            >
            >>>> Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
            >>>> Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
            >>>> don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
            >>>> want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
            >>>> correct.
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >> strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex& Str" to all but only Natural
            >> weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
            >> a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)
            >>
            >> PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>>> /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
            >>>> his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
            >>>> <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
            >>>> Strength
            >>>> <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
            >>>> modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
            >>>> attack bonus with natural weapons.
            >>>>
            >>>> Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
            >>>>
            >>>
            >>>
            > I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have
            > Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is
            > just explaining how that is applied and of coarse the only mention
            > natural weapons because they are animals, they only use natural weapons.
            >
            >

            except...

            * Toad lacks Weapon Finesse, but the core rule would still apply to
            a toad familiar?
            * the listed creatures are the base wild animals, not actual familiars
            * the wild animals use their one Feat to get this, but the
            implication of the core rules is that familiars get the
            finesse-equivalent as a bonus property-of-being-a-familiar.


            there's a separate bug that Weapon Finesse wasn't being applied to
            natural attacks? now fixed?

            --
            Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
            ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
            Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
            Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andrew Maitland
            Eddy, I m confused. I ve looked in the Bestiary, and I ve looked in the Core Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I don t see any
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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              Eddy,

              I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
              Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
              don't see any actual write up of them. I see the exact location where
              the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
              mention this being from Weapon Finesse.

              So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
              you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
              the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.

              I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
              like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.


              On 6/3/2010 6:01 AM, Eddy Anthony wrote:
              > On 6/3/10 6:46 AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
              >
              >> Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
              >>
              >> BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
              >> BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
              >>
              >> In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
              >>
              >> We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
              >>
              >> Anyways, the fix is committed.
              >>
              >>
              > Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don't have an ability that
              > mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You've now got three
              > bonuses in different places all doing the same thing.
              >
              > I think the best solution here is to add the default feats and skills to
              > the familiar kits so when you create one you get the stats from the book
              > right from the start. You can still customize it by removing the
              > defaults and this will alleviate the confusion.
              >
              >

              --
              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Saxum Caribetum
              ... You won t find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, Bat, Dire and Bat, Swarm leaving one wondering where Bat or Bat, Familair went... nor C-forCat nor the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                On 03/06/2010 19:37, Andrew Maitland wrote:
                > Eddy,
                >
                > I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
                > Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
                > don't see any actual write up of them.

                You won't find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, "Bat, Dire" and "Bat,
                Swarm" leaving one wondering where "Bat" or "Bat, Familair went... nor
                C-forCat nor the rest...

                Animals "most commonly used as familairs" - ie those listed in PFRPG are
                gathered together under F-for-Familiar in the PFB.

                > I see the exact location where
                > the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
                > mention this being from Weapon Finesse.
                >
                > So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
                > you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
                > the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.
                >
                > I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
                > like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.
                >
                >

                I have my books out again -

                Core PFRPG gives modifications to any "normal, unmodified animal" -
                (with an unwritten assumption that only small weak ones can be used -
                confirmed but not categorized by the Improved Familiar Feat.) - but it
                lacks the descriptions of the base animal statistics, and refers the
                reader to the PFB

                PF Bestiary lists a sample set of normal, unmodified animals, matching
                the list in the PFRPG: "presented here are the base animal statistics
                for all of the most commonly used familiars" and "these statistics can
                also be used for normal animals as well".

                I think it is clear from this that

                1. PFB lists normal animals - not actual familiars
                2. a PFB "familiar" base animal becomes an actual Familiar for a
                Wizard by applying the rules and level-dependent mods in PFRPG
                Wizard section.


                the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                different Feats from the ones listed... so

                1. most but not all of the 1HD normal animals in the Familiars block
                have "Weapon Finesse" as their 1HD Feat
                2. actual Familiars are modified by a rule which says "use
                max(Dex,Str) for natural weapons"
                3. ergo: actual Familiars might have Weapon Finesse anyway (eg monkey
                with a dagger) or may have an alternative Feat.


                PFB makes explicit a separate rule "small animals like these use Dex to
                modify Climb and Swim checks".


                --
                Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
                Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eddy Anthony
                ... That may be so but a base familiar must be a normal, unmodified animal . I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as presented in the
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                  On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                  > the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                  > different Feats from the ones listed... so
                  >

                  That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
                  animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
                  presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.

                  --
                  ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                  ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                  ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
                • Saxum Caribetum
                  ... we are drifting into I interpret the rules this way discussions, which I d rather not do here... However, I take the statement ... to mean no deliberate
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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                    On 03/06/2010 22:50, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                    > On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                    >
                    >> the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                    >> different Feats from the ones listed... so
                    >>
                    >>
                    > That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
                    > animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
                    > presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.
                    >
                    >
                    we are drifting into "I interpret the rules this way" discussions, which
                    I'd rather not do here...

                    However, I take the statement
                    > Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal
                    > companion cannot also function as a familiar.
                    to mean no deliberate modifications outside the normal range of
                    variations of creatures. Templates, Animal Companion, already-Familiar -
                    are ruled out.
                    As a DM using PCGen, I consider that all Bestiary creatures have some
                    variation in them, and am often willing to listen to players, or even
                    suggest things to them.

                    As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
                    reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
                    representing natural variation within the creature line.
                    So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
                    (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
                    beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
                    (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
                    candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)



                    A Toad has arms, and gums, so in principle has an unarmed attack (weedy
                    and normally not worth mentioning). A Familiar Toad has Int and
                    potentially has magic buffs and magic items, so might have a worthwhile
                    and dangerous attack.
                    /Magic fang /and /Greater Magic Fang/ boost "one natural weapon or
                    unarmed strike".
                    Touch (spell) attacks can be delivered by Familiars.
                    ... so I think it matters that a normal Toad does *not* have Weapon
                    Finesse, but *still* has the familiar rule of "use max(dex,str)".

                    You may argue that a Toad is _listed_ with no natural weapon, so can
                    never benefit from the familiar rule on natural weapons;
                    I can argue that a living toad eats prey that it catches - as do frogs
                    and newts - and so they have a natural weapon, even one so weak as
                    normally nor worth mentioning.
                    But now the two of us have drifted well out of PCGen and into the realm
                    of opinion, and of campaign judgements.

                    Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
                    game" discussion for the Paizo forums?


                    --
                    Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                    ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                    Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
                    Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    ... I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things as they
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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                      On 6/4/10 3:10 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                      > As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
                      > reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
                      > representing natural variation within the creature line.
                      >

                      I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the
                      rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things
                      as they wish.

                      > So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
                      > (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
                      > beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
                      > (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
                      > candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)
                      >

                      We haven't crossed that line. What we've done is to set the kit that
                      sets the base stats for new familiars to also set the default skills and
                      feats from the book. A kit only adds stuff that you would normally do
                      manually, anything a kit adds you can manually remove. There is nothing
                      preventing you from removing those feats and skill points (and changing
                      the stats for that matter) and reallocating them as you wish once the
                      familiar has been created. If you want to give your familiars Weapon
                      Finesse as a bonus feat you can just add 1 to the number of feats field
                      and do so.

                      > Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
                      > game" discussion for the Paizo forums?
                      >

                      No problem, I started a thread over there. Unfortunately you don't
                      always get a definitive official answer there. However it is not
                      inappropriate to have this kind of discussion here since we are
                      discussing how the data gets implemented.

                      http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/familiarsAndWeaponFinesse

                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                      ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
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