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Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

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  • Saxum Caribetum
    *BUMP* ... Subject: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:29:35 +0100 From: Saxum Caribetum
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2010
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      *BUMP*

      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details
      Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:29:35 +0100
      From: Saxum Caribetum <saxum.caribetum@...>
      Reply-To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com



      PCGen 5.17.2, pathfinder core, bestiary etc.

      I added (strictly, I deleted and re-added) a Bat familiar to a Wiz 9,
      while checking in the PFRPG, and the PFB

      Ability scores: the stats should be same as the Bestiary apart from Int.
      For the Bat this is almost true, except PCGen give the Bat Cha 4 not Cha
      5 as in PFB

      AC - Natural Armour is listed by PCGen as +4, but PFRPG p.83 says +5 for
      Wiz 9.

      Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the baster's BAB", "Use the familiar's Dex or
      Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
      attack bonus with natural weapons".

      Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen differs
      from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
      PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike 1D2-5
      With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
      Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2. OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive Bite"
      as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?
      (Doesn't actually matter due a quirk in D20 rules, as minimum damage
      is 1 pt, and 1D3-4, 1D3-5, 1D2-5 all trigger the "min 1 pt"
      regardless of what you roll...)


      Attack bonus is wrong though - and matters for eg Touch spells delivered
      by Bat.
      PCGen lists BAB as +4 (correct for Wiz 9), but lists the Ability mod as
      -5 (ie Str) but PFRPG clearly states "better of Dex or Str", so should
      be +2 (Dex 15), along with +4 to Atk/AC from Size.
      Total attack bonus for Unarmed strike is -1 (-5 + BAB 4)

      CMB, however, does list Ability +2. CMB/CMD total +2/7 which is 4 more
      than natural Bat which is correct given the master's BAB +4



      Skills - max(normal animal ranks, master's ranks) -- does not list
      Linguistics skill, but Wiz has 7 Ranks. (Odd wizard...)

      --
      Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
      ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
      Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
      Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • karianna03
      Hi all, ... DATA: Please Check ... DATA: Please Check formula ... Eddy, I think you re looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out, can you
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 2, 2010
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        Hi all,

        Will need some Pathfinder data gurus to look this stuff up, my comments inline below:

        > PCGen 5.17.2, pathfinder core, bestiary etc.
        >
        > I added (strictly, I deleted and re-added) a Bat familiar to a Wiz
        > 9, while checking in the PFRPG, and the PFB
        >
        > Ability scores: the stats should be same as the Bestiary apart from
        > Int. For the Bat this is almost true, except PCGen give the Bat Cha
        > 4 not Cha 5 as in PFB

        DATA: Please Check

        > AC - Natural Armour is listed by PCGen as +4, but PFRPG p.83 says +5
        > for Wiz 9.

        DATA: Please Check formula

        > Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the caster's BAB", "Use the familiar's
        > Dex or Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the
        > familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons".
        >
        > Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen
        > differs
        > from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
        > PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike
        > 1D2-5
        > With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
        > Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2. OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive
        > Bite"
        > as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?

        Eddy, I think you're looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out, can you comment?

        > (Doesn't actually matter due a quirk in D20 rules, as minimum
        > damage
        > is 1 pt, and 1D3-4, 1D3-5, 1D2-5 all trigger the "min 1 pt"
        > regardless of what you roll...)

        True, but we like to remain true to source :)

        > Attack bonus is wrong though - and matters for eg Touch spells
        > delivered by Bat.
        > PCGen lists BAB as +4 (correct for Wiz 9), but lists the Ability mod
        > as -5 (ie Str) but PFRPG clearly states "better of Dex or Str", so
        > should be +2 (Dex 15), along with +4 to Atk/AC from Size.
        > Total attack bonus for Unarmed strike is -1 (-5 + BAB 4)

        Looks like we need to use a more complex calculation here, I'd say it's doable

        > CMB, however, does list Ability +2. CMB/CMD total +2/7 which is 4
        > more than natural Bat which is correct given the master's BAB +4

        Great!

        > Skills - max(normal animal ranks, master's ranks) -- does not list
        > Linguistics skill, but Wiz has 7 Ranks. (Odd wizard...)

        So you're saying it didn't inherit linguistics?

        K
      • Saxum Caribetum
        ... yes - I am saying it did not share ranks in Linguistics - but did in all the other master s skills (we have an unusual Wiz - partly a conversion from 3.5,
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 2, 2010
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          On 02/06/2010 13:32, karianna03 wrote:
          >
          >> Skills - max(normal animal ranks, master's ranks) -- does not list
          >> Linguistics skill, but Wiz has 7 Ranks. (Odd wizard...)
          >>
          > So you're saying it didn't inherit linguistics?
          >

          yes - I am saying it did not share ranks in Linguistics - but did in all
          the other master's skills


          (we have an unusual Wiz - partly a conversion from 3.5, so points in
          Decipher Script went into Linguistics, hence the very high score)

          --
          Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
          ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
          Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
          Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/
        • Eddy Anthony
          ... I ll check into these. I m testing the trunk data with 5.16.2 though, we re currently working on implementing the recently released errata so we can put
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 2, 2010
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            Martijn Verburg scribed:

            > Hi all,
            >
            > Will need some Pathfinder data gurus to look this stuff up, my comments inline
            > below:

            I'll check into these. I'm testing the trunk data with 5.16.2 though, we're
            currently working on implementing the recently released errata so we can put
            out one more installer set for 5.16.2 so I'm doing my testing with that.

            >> PCGen 5.17.2, pathfinder core, bestiary etc.
            >>
            >> I added (strictly, I deleted and re-added) a Bat familiar to a Wiz
            >> 9, while checking in the PFRPG, and the PFB
            >>
            >> Ability scores: the stats should be same as the Bestiary apart from
            >> Int. For the Bat this is almost true, except PCGen give the Bat Cha
            >> 4 not Cha 5 as in PFB
            >
            > DATA: Please Check

            Fixed.

            >> AC - Natural Armour is listed by PCGen as +4, but PFRPG p.83 says +5
            >> for Wiz 9.

            > DATA: Please Check formula

            I'm getting +5 with 5.16.2, might have a code issue in 5.17?

            >> Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the caster's BAB", "Use the familiar's
            >> Dex or Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the
            >> familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons".
            >>
            >> Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen
            >> differs
            >> from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
            >> PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike
            >> 1D2-5
            >> With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
            >> Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2. OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive
            >> Bite"
            >> as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?
            >
            > Eddy, I think you're looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out,
            > can you comment?

            Sure, there is a data bug, the Bite was left out. I've fixed that. I have
            the errata and the updated Bestiary pdf however the bats bite damage is
            still listed as 1d3-4 when it should be -5. As the OP pointed out it doesn't
            matter since it will be a minimum of 1 in either case.

            >> (Doesn't actually matter due a quirk in D20 rules, as minimum
            >> damage
            >> is 1 pt, and 1D3-4, 1D3-5, 1D2-5 all trigger the "min 1 pt"
            >> regardless of what you roll...)
            >
            > True, but we like to remain true to source :)
            >
            >> Attack bonus is wrong though - and matters for eg Touch spells
            >> delivered by Bat.
            >> PCGen lists BAB as +4 (correct for Wiz 9), but lists the Ability mod
            >> as -5 (ie Str) but PFRPG clearly states "better of Dex or Str", so
            >> should be +2 (Dex 15), along with +4 to Atk/AC from Size.
            >> Total attack bonus for Unarmed strike is -1 (-5 + BAB 4)
            >
            > Looks like we need to use a more complex calculation here, I'd say it's doable

            Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
            Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
            don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
            want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
            correct.

            >> CMB, however, does list Ability +2. CMB/CMD total +2/7 which is 4
            >> more than natural Bat which is correct given the master's BAB +4
            >
            > Great!
            >
            >> Skills - max(normal animal ranks, master's ranks) -- does not list
            >> Linguistics skill, but Wiz has 7 Ranks. (Odd wizard...)
            >
            > So you're saying it didn't inherit linguistics?
            >
            > K

            Confirmed in 5.16.2, looks like a code bug, I don't see anything in the data
            that would cause it.
            --
            ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
            ~ PCGen Data, Docs & Tracker Chimp
            ~ Outputsheet Tamarin & Mac build guru
          • Saxum Caribetum
            ... (unless his master stacks Bull s Str or similar onto the little blighter - there comes a point when eventually it makes a difference) ... strictly,
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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              On 03/06/2010 04:11, Eddy Anthony wrote:
              >
              >>> Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the caster's BAB", "Use the familiar's
              >>> Dex or Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the
              >>> familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons".
              >>>
              >>> Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen
              >>> differs
              >>> from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
              >>> PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike
              >>> 1D2-5
              >>> With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
              >>> Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2. OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive
              >>> Bite"
              >>> as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?
              >>>
              >> Eddy, I think you're looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out,
              >> can you comment?
              >>
              > Sure, there is a data bug, the Bite was left out. I've fixed that. I have
              > the errata and the updated Bestiary pdf however the bats bite damage is
              > still listed as 1d3-4 when it should be -5. As the OP pointed out it doesn't
              > matter since it will be a minimum of 1 in either case.

              (unless his master stacks Bull's Str or similar onto the little blighter
              - there comes a point when eventually it makes a difference)

              > Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
              > Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
              > don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
              > want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
              > correct.
              >
              >
              strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex & Str" to all but only Natural
              weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
              a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)


              PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars

              > /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
              > his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
              > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
              > Strength
              > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
              > modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
              > attack bonus with natural weapons.
              >
              > Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
              >


              --
              Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
              ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
              Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
              Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andrew Maitland
              Sounds like something we ll need to apply to the Familiars then. Hidden Ability that mimics Weapon Finesse applied to Natural Attacks only. Eddy - I can handle
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                Sounds like something we'll need to apply to the Familiars then. Hidden Ability that mimics Weapon Finesse applied to Natural Attacks only.

                Eddy - I can handle that since I coded up the familiar section.




                ________________________________
                From: Saxum Caribetum <saxum.caribetum@...>
                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 12:03:27 AM
                Subject: Re: [Eddy] Re: Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

                On 03/06/2010 04:11, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                >
                >>> Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the caster's BAB", "Use the familiar's
                >>> Dex or Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the
                >>> familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons".
                >>>
                >>>      Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen
                >>>      differs
                >>>      from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
                >>>      PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike
                >>>      1D2-5
                >>>      With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
                >>>      Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2.  OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive
                >>>      Bite"
                >>>      as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?
                >>>       
                >> Eddy, I think you're looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out,
                >> can you comment?
                >>     
                > Sure, there is a data bug, the Bite was left out. I've fixed that. I have
                > the errata and the updated Bestiary pdf however the bats bite damage is
                > still listed as 1d3-4 when it should be -5. As the OP pointed out it doesn't
                > matter since it will be a minimum of 1 in either case.

                (unless his master stacks Bull's Str or similar onto the little blighter
                - there comes a point when eventually it makes a difference)

                > Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
                > Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
                > don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
                > want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
                > correct.
                >
                >   
                strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex & Str" to all but only Natural
                weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
                a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)


                PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars

                > /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
                > his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
                > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
                > Strength
                > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
                > modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
                > attack bonus with natural weapons.
                >
                > Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
                >


                --
                Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
                Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Andrew Maitland
                Eddy - I ve coded the familiars to work better. However, I m not happy since I had to use a Hack. BONUS:COMBAT won t accept Natural as valid
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                  Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.

                  BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
                  BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.

                  In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.

                  We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.

                  Anyways, the fix is committed.




                  ________________________________
                  From: Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...>
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 1:37:27 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Eddy] Re: Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

                  Sounds like something we'll need to apply to the Familiars then. Hidden Ability that mimics Weapon Finesse applied to Natural Attacks only.

                  Eddy - I can handle that since I coded up the familiar section.




                  ________________________________
                  From: Saxum Caribetum <saxum.caribetum@...>
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 12:03:27 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Eddy] Re: Fwd: [pcgen] [pathfinder] familiar details

                  On 03/06/2010 04:11, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                  >
                  >>> Attacks - PFRPG, p.83 "use the caster's BAB", "Use the familiar's
                  >>> Dex or Str modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the
                  >>> familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons".
                  >>>
                  >>>      Bite is not listed, but Unarmed Strike is ... here PCGen
                  >>>      differs
                  >>>      from the PFB (which may possibly be in error).
                  >>>      PFB lists the Bat as "Bite 1D3-4", PCGen gives Unarmed Strike
                  >>>      1D2-5
                  >>>      With Str 1, I rather agree that Str mod is -5
                  >>>      Base dice Bite 1D3 vs 1D2.  OK, PFB p.302 lists "Diminutive
                  >>>      Bite"
                  >>>      as 1D2 .. but which is right? Is there an official erratum?
                  >>>       
                  >> Eddy, I think you're looking at the Pathfinder Errata that has just come out,
                  >> can you comment?
                  >>     
                  > Sure, there is a data bug, the Bite was left out. I've fixed that. I have
                  > the errata and the updated Bestiary pdf however the bats bite damage is
                  > still listed as 1d3-4 when it should be -5. As the OP pointed out it doesn't
                  > matter since it will be a minimum of 1 in either case.

                  (unless his master stacks Bull's Str or similar onto the little blighter
                  - there comes a point when eventually it makes a difference)

                  > Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
                  > Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
                  > don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
                  > want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
                  > correct.
                  >
                  >   
                  strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex & Str" to all but only Natural
                  weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
                  a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)


                  PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars

                  > /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
                  > his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
                  > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
                  > Strength
                  > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
                  > modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
                  > attack bonus with natural weapons.
                  >
                  > Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
                  >


                  --
                  Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                  ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                  Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
                  Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • Saxum Caribetum
                  ... would that allow users to create custom natural weapons, and equip them? -- Neil Taylor Creo Imaginem Mente ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)-
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                    On 03/06/2010 11:46, Andrew Maitland wrote:
                    > Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
                    >
                    > BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
                    > BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
                    >
                    > In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
                    >


                    > We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
                    >
                    >
                    would that allow users to create custom natural weapons, and equip them?

                    --
                    Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                    ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                    Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
                    Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    ... I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is just
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                      On 6/3/10 3:03 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                      >> > Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
                      >> > Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
                      >> > don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
                      >> > want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
                      >> > correct.
                      >> >
                      >>
                      > strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex& Str" to all but only Natural
                      > weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
                      > a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)
                      >
                      > PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars
                      >
                      >
                      >> > /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
                      >> > his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
                      >> > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
                      >> > Strength
                      >> > <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
                      >> > modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
                      >> > attack bonus with natural weapons.
                      >> >
                      >> > Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
                      >>

                      I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have
                      Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is
                      just explaining how that is applied and of coarse the only mention
                      natural weapons because they are animals, they only use natural weapons.

                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                      ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
                    • Eddy Anthony
                      ... Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don t have an ability that mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You ve now got three bonuses in
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                        On 6/3/10 6:46 AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
                        > Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
                        >
                        > BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
                        > BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
                        >
                        > In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
                        >
                        > We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
                        >
                        > Anyways, the fix is committed.
                        >

                        Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don't have an ability that
                        mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You've now got three
                        bonuses in different places all doing the same thing.

                        I think the best solution here is to add the default feats and skills to
                        the familiar kits so when you create one you get the stats from the book
                        right from the start. You can still customize it by removing the
                        defaults and this will alleviate the confusion.

                        --
                        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                        ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                        ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
                      • Saxum Caribetum
                        ... except... * Toad lacks Weapon Finesse, but the core rule would still apply to a toad familiar? * the listed creatures are the base wild animals, not actual
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                          On 03/06/2010 14:01, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                          > On 6/3/10 3:03 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                          >
                          >>>> Here's the issue: the "better of Dex or Str" comes from the feat Weapon
                          >>>> Finesse, however we have coded the familiars so that when you create one you
                          >>>> don't get the default skills and feats. The reasoning is that maybe you'd
                          >>>> want to customize the familiar. Once given Weapon Finesse the numbers are
                          >>>> correct.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >> strictly, Familiars apply "better of Dex& Str" to all but only Natural
                          >> weapon attacks... they don't actually have actual Weapon Finesse. (Eg if
                          >> a Monkey familiar grasped a dagger, he'd be on Str only)
                          >>
                          >> PFSRD: Wizard - Familiars
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>> /Attacks/: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all
                          >>>> his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity
                          >>>> <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#dexterity> or
                          >>>> Strength
                          >>>> <http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#strength>
                          >>>> modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee
                          >>>> attack bonus with natural weapons.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          > I disagree, their stat block lists Weapon Finesse, so the really do have
                          > Weapon Finesse and not some ability that just mimics it. The text is
                          > just explaining how that is applied and of coarse the only mention
                          > natural weapons because they are animals, they only use natural weapons.
                          >
                          >

                          except...

                          * Toad lacks Weapon Finesse, but the core rule would still apply to
                          a toad familiar?
                          * the listed creatures are the base wild animals, not actual familiars
                          * the wild animals use their one Feat to get this, but the
                          implication of the core rules is that familiars get the
                          finesse-equivalent as a bonus property-of-being-a-familiar.


                          there's a separate bug that Weapon Finesse wasn't being applied to
                          natural attacks? now fixed?

                          --
                          Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                          ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                          Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
                          Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Andrew Maitland
                          Eddy, I m confused. I ve looked in the Bestiary, and I ve looked in the Core Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I don t see any
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                            Eddy,

                            I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
                            Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
                            don't see any actual write up of them. I see the exact location where
                            the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
                            mention this being from Weapon Finesse.

                            So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
                            you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
                            the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.

                            I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
                            like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.


                            On 6/3/2010 6:01 AM, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                            > On 6/3/10 6:46 AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
                            >
                            >> Eddy - I've coded the familiars to work better. However, I'm not happy since I had to use a Hack.
                            >>
                            >> BONUS:COMBAT won't accept Natural as valid
                            >> BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural Doesn't seem to fly either.
                            >>
                            >> In the interim I've used BONUS:WEAPONPROF= on each Familiar Race Line to give them the correct bonus.
                            >>
                            >> We'll need a Code FREQ to expand WEAPONPROF to include Natural Attacks.
                            >>
                            >> Anyways, the fix is committed.
                            >>
                            >>
                            > Andrew, I think this is incorrect. Familiars don't have an ability that
                            > mimics Weapon Finesse, they have the feat itself. You've now got three
                            > bonuses in different places all doing the same thing.
                            >
                            > I think the best solution here is to add the default feats and skills to
                            > the familiar kits so when you create one you get the stats from the book
                            > right from the start. You can still customize it by removing the
                            > defaults and this will alleviate the confusion.
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Saxum Caribetum
                            ... You won t find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, Bat, Dire and Bat, Swarm leaving one wondering where Bat or Bat, Familair went... nor C-forCat nor the
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                              On 03/06/2010 19:37, Andrew Maitland wrote:
                              > Eddy,
                              >
                              > I'm confused. I've looked in the Bestiary, and I've looked in the Core
                              > Player Book. I see the List of Animals that can be familiars, but I
                              > don't see any actual write up of them.

                              You won't find B-for-Bat (just, confusingly, "Bat, Dire" and "Bat,
                              Swarm" leaving one wondering where "Bat" or "Bat, Familair went... nor
                              C-forCat nor the rest...

                              Animals "most commonly used as familairs" - ie those listed in PFRPG are
                              gathered together under F-for-Familiar in the PFB.

                              > I see the exact location where
                              > the Familiars are said to be given the best of Dex or Str but it doesn't
                              > mention this being from Weapon Finesse.
                              >
                              > So, I looked the Pathfinder SRD and was able to find the Familiars, and
                              > you are correct, ALL of them list Weapon Finesse, except the Toad, cause
                              > the Toad doesn't have a Natural Attack.
                              >
                              > I backed out the commit. I think we should apply the Kits automatically
                              > like we do in the 3.x stuff to avoid this confusion in the future.
                              >
                              >

                              I have my books out again -

                              Core PFRPG gives modifications to any "normal, unmodified animal" -
                              (with an unwritten assumption that only small weak ones can be used -
                              confirmed but not categorized by the Improved Familiar Feat.) - but it
                              lacks the descriptions of the base animal statistics, and refers the
                              reader to the PFB

                              PF Bestiary lists a sample set of normal, unmodified animals, matching
                              the list in the PFRPG: "presented here are the base animal statistics
                              for all of the most commonly used familiars" and "these statistics can
                              also be used for normal animals as well".

                              I think it is clear from this that

                              1. PFB lists normal animals - not actual familiars
                              2. a PFB "familiar" base animal becomes an actual Familiar for a
                              Wizard by applying the rules and level-dependent mods in PFRPG
                              Wizard section.


                              the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                              different Feats from the ones listed... so

                              1. most but not all of the 1HD normal animals in the Familiars block
                              have "Weapon Finesse" as their 1HD Feat
                              2. actual Familiars are modified by a rule which says "use
                              max(Dex,Str) for natural weapons"
                              3. ergo: actual Familiars might have Weapon Finesse anyway (eg monkey
                              with a dagger) or may have an alternative Feat.


                              PFB makes explicit a separate rule "small animals like these use Dex to
                              modify Climb and Swim checks".


                              --
                              Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                              ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                              Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
                              Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Eddy Anthony
                              ... That may be so but a base familiar must be a normal, unmodified animal . I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as presented in the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 3, 2010
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                                On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                                > the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                                > different Feats from the ones listed... so
                                >

                                That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
                                animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
                                presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.

                                --
                                ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                                ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                                ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
                              • Saxum Caribetum
                                ... we are drifting into I interpret the rules this way discussions, which I d rather not do here... However, I take the statement ... to mean no deliberate
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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                                  On 03/06/2010 22:50, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                                  > On 6/3/10 5:18 PM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> the rest of the Bestiary makes it clear that creatures may have
                                  >> different Feats from the ones listed... so
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  > That may be so but a base familiar must be a "normal, unmodified
                                  > animal". I take that to mean you start with the animal with stats as
                                  > presented in the book, choosing different feats for it is modifying it.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  we are drifting into "I interpret the rules this way" discussions, which
                                  I'd rather not do here...

                                  However, I take the statement
                                  > Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal
                                  > companion cannot also function as a familiar.
                                  to mean no deliberate modifications outside the normal range of
                                  variations of creatures. Templates, Animal Companion, already-Familiar -
                                  are ruled out.
                                  As a DM using PCGen, I consider that all Bestiary creatures have some
                                  variation in them, and am often willing to listen to players, or even
                                  suggest things to them.

                                  As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
                                  reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
                                  representing natural variation within the creature line.
                                  So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
                                  (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
                                  beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
                                  (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
                                  candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)



                                  A Toad has arms, and gums, so in principle has an unarmed attack (weedy
                                  and normally not worth mentioning). A Familiar Toad has Int and
                                  potentially has magic buffs and magic items, so might have a worthwhile
                                  and dangerous attack.
                                  /Magic fang /and /Greater Magic Fang/ boost "one natural weapon or
                                  unarmed strike".
                                  Touch (spell) attacks can be delivered by Familiars.
                                  ... so I think it matters that a normal Toad does *not* have Weapon
                                  Finesse, but *still* has the familiar rule of "use max(dex,str)".

                                  You may argue that a Toad is _listed_ with no natural weapon, so can
                                  never benefit from the familiar rule on natural weapons;
                                  I can argue that a living toad eats prey that it catches - as do frogs
                                  and newts - and so they have a natural weapon, even one so weak as
                                  normally nor worth mentioning.
                                  But now the two of us have drifted well out of PCGen and into the realm
                                  of opinion, and of campaign judgements.

                                  Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
                                  game" discussion for the Paizo forums?


                                  --
                                  Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
                                  ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
                                  Saga site at http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/
                                  Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Eddy Anthony
                                  ... I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things as they
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 4, 2010
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                                    On 6/4/10 3:10 AM, Saxum Caribetum wrote:
                                    > As a DM I would like the PCGen program to have/retain the flexibility to
                                    > reassign (normal HD/level based, non-bonus) Feats on creatures,
                                    > representing natural variation within the creature line.
                                    >

                                    I agree with you, we aim to provide as accurate an interpretation of the
                                    rules as possible while allowing the ability for users to modify things
                                    as they wish.

                                    > So having the program mandate that a creature must use its normal Feats
                                    > (even the Toad?) to implement a separate class feature is arguably going
                                    > beyond the rules, and closes of flexibility from DMs.
                                    > (Bonus Feats, applied, fixed, and unchanging - that's OK - but the
                                    > candidate animals' Weapon Finesse Feat is their 1HD Feat)
                                    >

                                    We haven't crossed that line. What we've done is to set the kit that
                                    sets the base stats for new familiars to also set the default skills and
                                    feats from the book. A kit only adds stuff that you would normally do
                                    manually, anything a kit adds you can manually remove. There is nothing
                                    preventing you from removing those feats and skill points (and changing
                                    the stats for that matter) and reallocating them as you wish once the
                                    familiar has been created. If you want to give your familiars Weapon
                                    Finesse as a bonus feat you can just add 1 to the number of feats field
                                    and do so.

                                    > Sorry - I'd hoped we could leave that sort of detailed "what is in the
                                    > game" discussion for the Paizo forums?
                                    >

                                    No problem, I started a thread over there. Unfortunately you don't
                                    always get a definitive official answer there. However it is not
                                    inappropriate to have this kind of discussion here since we are
                                    discussing how the data gets implemented.

                                    http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/familiarsAndWeaponFinesse

                                    --
                                    ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                                    ~ PCGen Data, Docs& Tracker Chimp
                                    ~ Outputsheet Tamarin& Mac build guru
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