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Re: [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points

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  • Anestis Kozakis
    On 2010/02/28 8:30 PM -0500, Keith McComb gave their opinion about the topic of [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points... ... The Pathfinder rules
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
      On 2010/02/28 8:30 PM -0500, Keith McComb gave their opinion about
      the topic of [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points...
      >More precisely, the coding.
      >
      >I have a character who invented Epic Level stat increases, and then made
      >a belt that would add those stats. Think Belt of Giant Strength, only
      >with all stats getting a +20.
      >
      >Now, as soon as I add that to my character, the Hit Points rise
      >dramatically. I didn't know why until my wife asked a Pathfinder
      >question today, regarding Constitution. "If I raise my Constitution to a
      >point where it affects hit points, is that retroactive?"
      >
      >Apparently PC Gen answers that question yes. Is that an official ruling
      >from the rules, or a slight error in coding? In other words, should my
      >43 level character have gained 430 HP as soon as he put on the belt? (If
      >I did that right - 20/2=10, which is the number of hit points that the
      >new stat would add. If it's retroactive, then we add those 10 points 43
      >times, or 10*43, or 430 points. The math is correct, but is the assumption?)
      >
      >See the problem? We've never found in the rules an answer either way.
      >Logic tells me no, but the program says otherwise, and nothing I've
      >found really argues that point of view, i.e. - the CON bonus IS retroactive.

      The Pathfinder rules don't specifically state this (I've just had a
      look), but as Pathfinder is based on the 3.5 SRD, whenever a
      character gained a constitution bonus in 3.5 (and 3.0), the hit
      points were adjusted retroactively.

      If someone can clarify this for Pathfinder it would be good.

      >Keith McComb

      Anestis.
      --
      Anestis Kozakis
      PCGen Webteam Second
      kenosti@...
      http://life.akozakis.id.au (under development)
    • Keith McComb
      I appreciate this fast response. Can I assume that this retroactive stuff counts for other stat increases as well, such as spells if you raise your INT? It
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
        I appreciate this fast response. Can I assume that this retroactive
        stuff counts for other stat increases as well, such as spells if you
        raise your INT?

        It would make sense, and be more fair if ALL stats gave a similar bonus.

        Keith

        Anestis Kozakis wrote:
        >
        > On 2010/02/28 8:30 PM -0500, Keith McComb gave their opinion about
        > the topic of [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points...
        > >More precisely, the coding.
        > >
        > >I have a character who invented Epic Level stat increases, and then made
        > >a belt that would add those stats. Think Belt of Giant Strength, only
        > >with all stats getting a +20.
        > >
        > >Now, as soon as I add that to my character, the Hit Points rise
        > >dramatically. I didn't know why until my wife asked a Pathfinder
        > >question today, regarding Constitution. "If I raise my Constitution to a
        > >point where it affects hit points, is that retroactive?"
        > >
        > >Apparently PC Gen answers that question yes. Is that an official ruling
        > >from the rules, or a slight error in coding? In other words, should my
        > >43 level character have gained 430 HP as soon as he put on the belt? (If
        > >I did that right - 20/2=10, which is the number of hit points that the
        > >new stat would add. If it's retroactive, then we add those 10 points 43
        > >times, or 10*43, or 430 points. The math is correct, but is the
        > assumption?)
        > >
        > >See the problem? We've never found in the rules an answer either way.
        > >Logic tells me no, but the program says otherwise, and nothing I've
        > >found really argues that point of view, i.e. - the CON bonus IS
        > retroactive.
        >
        > The Pathfinder rules don't specifically state this (I've just had a
        > look), but as Pathfinder is based on the 3.5 SRD, whenever a
        > character gained a constitution bonus in 3.5 (and 3.0), the hit
        > points were adjusted retroactively.
        >
        > If someone can clarify this for Pathfinder it would be good.
        >
        > >Keith McComb
        >
        > Anestis.
        > --
        > Anestis Kozakis
        > PCGen Webteam Second
        > kenosti@... <mailto:kenosti%40gmail.com>
        > http://life.akozakis.id.au <http://life.akozakis.id.au> (under
        > development)
        >
        >
      • Tir Gwaith
        ... Not sure if retro-active is the correct term, as it only effects the character at the time. Character gains a bonus to his spellcasting stat, and his DCs
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
          On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Keith McComb <kinsfire@...> wrote:
          > I appreciate this fast response. Can I assume that this retroactive
          > stuff counts for other stat increases as well, such as spells if you
          > raise your INT?

          Not sure if "retro-active" is the correct term, as it only effects the
          character at the time.

          Character gains a bonus to his spellcasting stat, and his DCs increase
          immediately. Next time he prepares spells, that also includes any
          bonus spells from a high stat. Conversely, losing points in a
          spellcasting stat will immediately decrease DCs, can make higher
          levels spells impossible, and will cause fewer bonus spells prepared
          when prepping spells (or doing the meditations for renewing spells for
          Bards/Sorcerers/etc.)

          The ONLY place where what your stat was when you were gaining levels
          is skill points. You don't gain extra skill points by gaining a
          higher INT later, but also, you don't LOSE any by losing INT later on.

          --
          Tir Gwaith
          PCGen LST Chimp
        • Tir Gwaith
          ... Pathfinder PRD, under Getting Started for Constitution: You apply your character s Constitution modifier to: * Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
            On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Anestis Kozakis <kenosti@...> wrote:
            > On 2010/02/28 8:30 PM -0500, Keith McComb gave their opinion about
            > the topic of [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points...
            >>More precisely, the coding.
            >>
            >>I have a character who invented Epic Level stat increases, and then made
            >>a belt that would add those stats. Think Belt of Giant Strength, only
            >>with all stats getting a +20.
            >>
            >>Now, as soon as I add that to my character, the Hit Points rise
            >>dramatically. I didn't know why until my wife asked a Pathfinder
            >>question today, regarding Constitution. "If I raise my Constitution to a
            >>point where it affects hit points, is that retroactive?"
            >>
            >>Apparently PC Gen answers that question yes. Is that an official ruling
            >>from the rules, or a slight error in coding? In other words, should my
            >>43 level character have gained 430 HP as soon as he put on the belt? (If
            >>I did that right - 20/2=10, which is the number of hit points that the
            >>new stat would add. If it's retroactive, then we add those 10 points 43
            >>times, or 10*43, or 430 points. The math is correct, but is the assumption?)
            >>
            >>See the problem? We've never found in the rules an answer either way.
            >>Logic tells me no, but the program says otherwise, and nothing I've
            >>found really argues that point of view, i.e. - the CON bonus IS retroactive.
            >
            > The Pathfinder rules don't specifically state this (I've just had a
            > look), but as Pathfinder is based on the 3.5 SRD, whenever a
            > character gained a constitution bonus in 3.5 (and 3.0), the hit
            > points were adjusted retroactively.
            >
            > If someone can clarify this for Pathfinder it would be good.

            Pathfinder PRD, under "Getting Started" for Constitution:

            You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:

            * Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result
            below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each
            time he advances in level).
            * Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison, disease, and
            similar threats.

            If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her
            Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or
            decrease accordingly.


            Pretty clear.

            BTW, an item that does +20 to all 6 stats is one VERY expensive item.
            400K gold for just a +20 to a single stat. for all 6 stats it would
            be 400k + 300k + (200k*4) or 1.5M gold.

            --
            Tir Gwaith
            PCGen LST Chimp
          • Andrew Wilson
            ... If you look at the Belt of Physical perfection which enhances all three physical stats. Firstly there are no mental stats on it because it s a belt and
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
              On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 08:03:35PM -0600, Tir Gwaith wrote:
              > BTW, an item that does +20 to all 6 stats is one VERY expensive item.
              > 400K gold for just a +20 to a single stat. for all 6 stats it would
              > be 400k + 300k + (200k*4) or 1.5M gold.

              If you look at the Belt of Physical perfection which enhances all three
              physical stats. Firstly there are no mental stats on it because it's a
              belt and mental stats should be on a headband.

              Secondly look at the cost

              +2 16,000
              +4 64,000
              +6 144,000

              That's bonus times two squared times 1000. i.e. 40 * 40 * 1000 or
              1,600,000 just for the physical stats. You want to put the mental stats
              on there too, You double that to 3,200,000 and add that again times
              0.75, I make it 5,600,000 or there abouts.

              A very, very expensive item, but then the character is level 43.
              Expectations of balance probably went out the window about 30 levels ago
              :-)

              andrew
              --
              Gemini: (May 21 - June 21)
              From Thursday forward, your name will be mentioned every time
              flaming corn dogs rain down from the sky.
            • Andrew Wilson
              ... See page 16, the last paragraph of the Constitution entry. ... The Headband of Vast Intelligence, page 517. You treat the bonus as temporary for the first
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
                > Anestis Kozakis wrote:
                >> The Pathfinder rules don't specifically state this (I've just had a
                >> look), but as Pathfinder is based on the 3.5 SRD, whenever a
                >> character gained a constitution bonus in 3.5 (and 3.0), the hit
                >> points were adjusted retroactively.
                >>
                >> If someone can clarify this for Pathfinder it would be good.

                See page 16, the last paragraph of the Constitution entry.

                On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 08:43:23PM -0500, Keith McComb wrote:
                > I appreciate this fast response. Can I assume that this retroactive
                > stuff counts for other stat increases as well, such as spells if you
                > raise your INT?
                >
                > It would make sense, and be more fair if ALL stats gave a similar
                > bonus.

                The Headband of Vast Intelligence, page 517. You treat the bonus as
                temporary for the first 24 hours that the item is worn. It doesn't
                explicitly spell it out, but It's reasonable that after that the bonus
                is treated as if permenant.

                See Ability Score Bonus on pages 554 & 555, the secion at the end on
                permenant bonuses explicitly talks about skill points. Note the way
                this is treated is one of the differences with v3.5

                andrew
                --
                Sagittarius: (Nov. 22 - Dec. 21)
                Turns out the thing about getting 72 virgins in heaven is true, but
                it also turns out all they want to do is play Madden.
              • Ainvar G
                Just to make sure we cover all the details -- there are magical items that enhance Intelligence that retroactively grant skill points as if the character s
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 28, 2010
                  Just to make sure we cover all the details -- there are magical items that enhance Intelligence that "retroactively" grant skill points as if the character's Intelligence had always been that high. Not immediately, but after the item has been worn for a period of time -- 24 hours on all that I noticed.

                  The items that I found with this characteristic were the Headband of Prowess (where it grants an Intelligence bonus, of course), and the Headband of Vast Intelligence.


                  I do not believe that was ever the case in 3.5, but the Constitution effect that started this conversation has been true since at least 3.0.




                  ________________________________
                  From: Tir Gwaith <Tir.Gwaith@...>
                  To: pcgen <pcgen@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 7:51:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] An interesting question about Hit Points


                  On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Keith McComb <kinsfire@gmail. com> wrote:
                  > I appreciate this fast response. Can I assume that this retroactive
                  > stuff counts for other stat increases as well, such as spells if you
                  > raise your INT?

                  Not sure if "retro-active" is the correct term, as it only effects the
                  character at the time.

                  Character gains a bonus to his spellcasting stat, and his DCs increase
                  immediately. Next time he prepares spells, that also includes any
                  bonus spells from a high stat. Conversely, losing points in a
                  spellcasting stat will immediately decrease DCs, can make higher
                  levels spells impossible, and will cause fewer bonus spells prepared
                  when prepping spells (or doing the meditations for renewing spells for
                  Bards/Sorcerers/ etc.)

                  The ONLY place where what your stat was when you were gaining levels
                  is skill points. You don't gain extra skill points by gaining a
                  higher INT later, but also, you don't LOSE any by losing INT later on.

                  --
                  Tir Gwaith
                  PCGen LST Chimp






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Keith McComb
                  By the time the character created it, the party had amassed more than a little cash. We d started the campaign as first level characters quite some time ago.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 1, 2010
                    By the time the character created it, the party had amassed more than a
                    little cash. We'd started the campaign as first level characters quite
                    some time ago. It was expensive as hell in time and money to create just
                    the spells, and then the belt? (It was one of the reasons that my
                    character kept his money, and why the GM let him - he had a place to
                    store it, and had a plan for it, which meant that the character would
                    eventually be no longer able to access close to 3 million (maybe more -
                    have to look at my old calculations) GP.)

                    Keith McComb

                    Tir Gwaith wrote:
                    > BTW, an item that does +20 to all 6 stats is one VERY expensive item.
                    > 400K gold for just a +20 to a single stat. for all 6 stats it would
                    > be 400k + 300k + (200k*4) or 1.5M gold.
                    >
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