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Re: [pcgen] The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update

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  • Sigil Thane
    On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:55:30 -0500, maredudd800 ... Consider this my vote for keeping the game modes separate.The Beta was released to
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2009
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      On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:55:30 -0500, maredudd800 <maredudd@...>
      wrote:

      > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
      > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
      >
      > Eric Smith
      > PR Silverback
      > PCGen Board of Directors
      >

      Consider this my vote for keeping the game modes separate.The Beta was
      released to the community free of charge, and there are likely ongoing
      games using this rules set. That said I wouldn't worry about adding the
      alpha support, as there was a lot of change between the alphas. The Beta
      however was pretty solid and had a following. I would be ticked
      (personally) if my DM decided he did not like the changes in the Release
      and was running from the Beta instead... and found that rules set was no
      longer supported by PCGen.

      --
      Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
    • Stefan Radermacher
      ... I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it s quite likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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        > So, what are your feeling folks?
        >
        > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
        > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?

        I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
        likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
        Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
        the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
        set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
        that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
        package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
        install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
        mode files.

        Stefan.
      • Mike Elliott
        ... From: maredudd800 Subject: [pcgen] The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update To:
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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          --- On Mon, 9/7/09, maredudd800 <maredudd@...> wrote:

          From: maredudd800 <maredudd@...>
          Subject: [pcgen] The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 4:55 AM






           





          Hi Folks!



          Sigil Thane wrote:

          >>



          Some stuff about the upcoming Pathfinder Core

          Rulebook Data Set release deleted.



          (See the previous messages for details)



          >

          > Will this replace the Beta Pathfinder gamemode on our systems? I hope not,

          > to many gamers the Beta is the ruleset they are working under.

          >

          > ...assurances please.



          There has been a little discussion among the data team

          working the new set about what needs to be done with

          the Pathfinder Beta data set and I believe a majority feeling

          we should do away with the beta set altogether, but, and

          let me stress this, there have been no decisions made

          because we all felt we needed to bring the question to

          the broader PCGen community.



          So, what are your feeling folks?



          Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over

          the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?



          Eric Smith

          PR Silverback

          PCGen Board of Directors
          A perfect situation would be to:Keep the old Pathfinder Beta.  Maybe mark it as retired, but not dead yet.  Ie. Not expecting to be tweaked and updated from now on.
          Add the Pathfinder Core in all it's glory.
          Add a Pathfinder Society Organized Play.  This is a subset of the core rules that removes some feats and spells for a more balanced organized play.  (Scribe Scroll, Permanency, Item Creation feats all disappear.)   Many items would also need to be sorted into an "always available" vs "purchase available because of X" categories.  Even just two categories of "always available" vs "not" would be sufficient.But, the perfect situation is a lot of work.-Mike











          __,_._






















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David R. Bender
          I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry in the gamemode should be Pathfinder BETA , and the final rules should be
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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            I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry
            in the gamemode should be 'Pathfinder BETA', and the final rules should
            be 'Pathfinder'.

            David
            Papa.DRB

            Grognard (definition 1)
            <http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edavidstuff/Grognard.html>
            My better half and me
            <http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edavidstuff/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
            Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
            The Internet: Because None of Us Are As Dumb as All of Us


            Stefan Radermacher wrote:
            >> So, what are your feeling folks?
            >>
            >> Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
            >> the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
            >>
            >
            > I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
            > likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
            > Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
            > the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
            > set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
            > that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
            > package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
            > install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
            > mode files.
          • Hollis McCray
            ... I m agreeing as well. While I think most people will switch over to the final print rules, there will probably still be some people who are still using the
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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              On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, David R. Bender<Papa.DRB@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry
              > in the gamemode should be 'Pathfinder BETA', and the final rules should
              > be 'Pathfinder'.

              I'm agreeing as well. While I think most people will switch over to
              the final print rules, there will probably still be some people who
              are still using the beta rules.

              Maybe we could use a page for datasets that are no longer maintained
              or 'deprecated'? (To borrrow a bit of code-speak.)
              --
              Hollis McCray
              Mutant Registration Number #US2002023904

              Warning: Proximity to this individual may expose you to the following RPGs:
              Fate: http://www.faterpg.com
              Mutants & Masterminds: http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com
              Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies: http://www.7skies.net/
              Please visit these websites in order to protect yourself.
            • Jeff Miller
              I m currently reading the Core Rulebook now. I like what I see and will be switching son. I can imagine that there will be people who will want continued
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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                I'm currently reading the Core Rulebook now. I like what I see and will
                be switching son.

                I can imagine that there will be people who will want continued support
                for the free version but I don't currently see a need. Maybe freeze the
                latest copy of PCGen for those who want the old set.

                Mike Elliott wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > There has been a little discussion among the data team
                >
                > working the new set about what needs to be done with
                >
                > the Pathfinder Beta data set and I believe a majority feeling
                >
                > we should do away with the beta set altogether, but, and
                >
                > let me stress this, there have been no decisions made
                >
                > because we all felt we needed to bring the question to
                >
                > the broader PCGen community.
                >
                > So, what are your feeling folks?
                >
                > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
                >
                > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
                >
                > Eric Smith
                >
                >
                >

                --


                Jeff Miller
                http://businesscredittips.weebly.com
                Voice: 949-249-3673
                Skype: shadocat2







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eddy Anthony
                ... Why would this be necessary? If anyone wants to keep using the beta just keep using 5.16.1, it not like that release is going anywhere. At this point there
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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                  Stefan Radermacher scribed:

                  >> So, what are your feeling folks?
                  >>
                  >> Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
                  >> the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
                  >
                  > I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
                  > likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
                  > Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
                  > the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
                  > set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
                  > that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
                  > package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
                  > install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
                  > mode files.
                  >
                  > Stefan.

                  Why would this be necessary? If anyone wants to keep using the beta just
                  keep using 5.16.1, it not like that release is going anywhere. At this point
                  there will be no more work on the beta dataset, the LST monkeys involved
                  have all moved on to work on the final rules and source books to follow. For
                  us to keep the beta in the release or even as a OOC set means someone will
                  have to spend time maintaining it as we do with the other sets, and we are
                  limited in our monkeypower.

                  I will grant that with the advances with the data converter the maintenance
                  time should be much less than it has been in the past, so that is not really
                  a strong argument in and of itself. If we must keep it around my preference
                  would be an OOC set so that it is not in the PCGen release (which could lead
                  to some confusion) and we'd only need to update the set after each
                  production release.
                  --
                  ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                  ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                  ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
                • Tir Gwaith
                  I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around.... Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn t need to be in the initial pop-up... I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                    I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....

                    Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                    in the initial pop-up...

                    I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                    we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                    thing.


                    Tir Gwaith
                    PCGen LST Chimp
                  • Andrew Maitland
                    ... We already have separate gamemodes for them. Not an issue. I m getting the feeling that most people want the option to use either one. ... I have to agree
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                      Tir Gwaith wrote:
                      > I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                      >
                      > Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                      > in the initial pop-up...
                      >

                      We already have separate gamemodes for them. Not an issue. I'm getting
                      the feeling that most people want the option to use either one.
                      > I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                      > we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                      > thing.
                      >

                      I have to agree with Tir on this one. Beta and Full are two separate
                      entities just like 3e and 3.5e
                      >
                      > Tir Gwaith
                      > PCGen LST Chimp
                      >
                      >
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                      --

                      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                      Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    • Eddy Anthony
                      ... Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I took a quick look at Paizo s site and I can no longer find a link to download the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                        Tir Gwaith wrote:
                        > I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                        >
                        > Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                        > in the initial pop-up...
                        >
                        > I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                        > we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                        > thing.

                        Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                        took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                        download the beta rules.

                        If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                        I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                        display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                        character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                        "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                        able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                        them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.

                        Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                        for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                        final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                        pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                        what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                        program bar display and in the pcg files.

                        --
                        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                        ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                        ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
                      • Tir Gwaith
                        ... Same thing about 3.0 when the 3.5 SRD came out. Hence our placing the 3.0 SOURCE files we had into SVN. That s more marketing than anything else (they
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                          On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Eddy Anthony<eddyba@...> wrote:
                          > Tir Gwaith wrote:
                          >> I say keep the Beta.  Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                          >>
                          >> Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                          >> in the initial pop-up...
                          >>
                          >> I don't think it should be removed from any releases.  If we do that,
                          >> we might as well remove 3.0 support.  I personally see it as the same
                          >> thing.
                          >
                          > Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                          > took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                          > download the beta rules.

                          Same thing about 3.0 when the 3.5 SRD came out. Hence our placing the
                          3.0 SOURCE files we had into SVN. That's more marketing than anything
                          else (they want people to buy & adopt their final version, not the
                          beta). Wizards did exactly the same thing. Oh, I can still download
                          the Beta from my personal Paizo account.

                          Has Paizo specifically requested us to stop hosting Beta files? That
                          would be a different story, and that's one of the two reasons we've
                          removed datasets before (the other being the few that were sooo buggy
                          and out of date, and we couldn't get anyone with a source to help
                          out.).

                          > If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                          > I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                          > display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                          > character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                          > "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                          > able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                          > them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.

                          It does? I thought that was the purpose of MENUENTRY (in
                          miscinfo.lst)? If all it does is the mnemonic, then it is fairly
                          dumb. We have the tag, just need to actually make the program use it
                          for the whole thing? If I'd known about that issue, I would have
                          pushed to call the Beta's GameMode PathfinderBeta or something. We
                          were fairly certain there would be GameMode changes between the Beta
                          and the Final.

                          > Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                          > for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                          > final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                          > pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                          > what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                          > program bar display and in the pcg files.

                          "Pathfinder RPG"... And for 5.17+/5.18 stable, let's have MENUENTRY
                          work, and make the Beta's display Pathfinder BETA.


                          Tir Gwaith
                          PCGen LST Chimp
                        • James Dempsey
                          Hi, On 9/09/2009 2:56 AM Eddy Anthony wrote ... See http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719 for the last round on
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                            Hi,

                            On 9/09/2009 2:56 AM Eddy Anthony wrote
                            > Tir Gwaith wrote:
                            >
                            >> I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                            >>
                            >> Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                            >> in the initial pop-up...
                            >>
                            >> I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                            >> we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                            >> thing.
                            >>
                            >
                            > Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                            > took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                            > download the beta rules.
                            >
                            > If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                            > I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                            > display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                            > character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                            > "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                            > able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                            > them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.
                            >
                            > Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                            > for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                            > final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                            > pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                            > what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                            > program bar display and in the pcg files.
                            >
                            See
                            http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                            for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                            tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                            different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                            like PCC files and saved characters.

                            What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                            (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                            to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                            bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                            load. Would that solve the problem?

                            Cheers,
                            James Dempsey
                            PCGen Code SB
                          • Tir Gwaith
                            ... Totally. :) I ll read the tracker when I get home from work. Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                              > See
                              > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                              > for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                              > tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                              > different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                              > like PCC files and saved characters.
                              >
                              > What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                              > (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                              > to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                              > bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                              > load. Would that solve the problem?

                              Totally. :)

                              I'll read the tracker when I get home from work.

                              Tir Gwaith
                              PCGen LST Chimp
                            • mosat22
                              ... Thanks for the blast from the past James, I knew it was something that put me through the ringer but I couldn t remember the details. Yes I think your
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                > See
                                > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                                > for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                                > tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                                > different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                                > like PCC files and saved characters.
                                >
                                > What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                                > (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                                > to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                                > bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                                > load. Would that solve the problem?
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                > James Dempsey
                                > PCGen Code SB

                                Thanks for the blast from the past James, I knew it was something that put me through the ringer but I couldn't remember the details.

                                Yes I think your suggestion is a good resolution. Is it minor enough that it can be considered for the 5.16.2 release?

                                Thanks.
                                -Eddy
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