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The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update

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  • maredudd800
    Hi Folks! ... Some stuff about the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook Data Set release deleted. (See the previous messages for details) ... There has been a
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2009
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      Hi Folks!

      Sigil Thane wrote:
      >>

      Some stuff about the upcoming Pathfinder Core
      Rulebook Data Set release deleted.

      (See the previous messages for details)

      >
      > Will this replace the Beta Pathfinder gamemode on our systems? I hope not,
      > to many gamers the Beta is the ruleset they are working under.
      >
      > ...assurances please.

      There has been a little discussion among the data team
      working the new set about what needs to be done with
      the Pathfinder Beta data set and I believe a majority feeling
      we should do away with the beta set altogether, but, and
      let me stress this, there have been no decisions made
      because we all felt we needed to bring the question to
      the broader PCGen community.

      So, what are your feeling folks?

      Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
      the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?

      Eric Smith
      PR Silverback
      PCGen Board of Directors
    • Sigil Thane
      On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:55:30 -0500, maredudd800 ... Consider this my vote for keeping the game modes separate.The Beta was released to
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 6, 2009
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        On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:55:30 -0500, maredudd800 <maredudd@...>
        wrote:

        > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
        > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
        >
        > Eric Smith
        > PR Silverback
        > PCGen Board of Directors
        >

        Consider this my vote for keeping the game modes separate.The Beta was
        released to the community free of charge, and there are likely ongoing
        games using this rules set. That said I wouldn't worry about adding the
        alpha support, as there was a lot of change between the alphas. The Beta
        however was pretty solid and had a following. I would be ticked
        (personally) if my DM decided he did not like the changes in the Release
        and was running from the Beta instead... and found that rules set was no
        longer supported by PCGen.

        --
        Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
      • Stefan Radermacher
        ... I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it s quite likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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          > So, what are your feeling folks?
          >
          > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
          > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?

          I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
          likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
          Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
          the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
          set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
          that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
          package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
          install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
          mode files.

          Stefan.
        • Mike Elliott
          ... From: maredudd800 Subject: [pcgen] The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update To:
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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            --- On Mon, 9/7/09, maredudd800 <maredudd@...> wrote:

            From: maredudd800 <maredudd@...>
            Subject: [pcgen] The Final Pathfinder vs the Pathfinder Beta Set was re: Pathfinder Update
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 4:55 AM






             





            Hi Folks!



            Sigil Thane wrote:

            >>



            Some stuff about the upcoming Pathfinder Core

            Rulebook Data Set release deleted.



            (See the previous messages for details)



            >

            > Will this replace the Beta Pathfinder gamemode on our systems? I hope not,

            > to many gamers the Beta is the ruleset they are working under.

            >

            > ...assurances please.



            There has been a little discussion among the data team

            working the new set about what needs to be done with

            the Pathfinder Beta data set and I believe a majority feeling

            we should do away with the beta set altogether, but, and

            let me stress this, there have been no decisions made

            because we all felt we needed to bring the question to

            the broader PCGen community.



            So, what are your feeling folks?



            Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over

            the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?



            Eric Smith

            PR Silverback

            PCGen Board of Directors
            A perfect situation would be to:Keep the old Pathfinder Beta.  Maybe mark it as retired, but not dead yet.  Ie. Not expecting to be tweaked and updated from now on.
            Add the Pathfinder Core in all it's glory.
            Add a Pathfinder Society Organized Play.  This is a subset of the core rules that removes some feats and spells for a more balanced organized play.  (Scribe Scroll, Permanency, Item Creation feats all disappear.)   Many items would also need to be sorted into an "always available" vs "purchase available because of X" categories.  Even just two categories of "always available" vs "not" would be sufficient.But, the perfect situation is a lot of work.-Mike











            __,_._






















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David R. Bender
            I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry in the gamemode should be Pathfinder BETA , and the final rules should be
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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              I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry
              in the gamemode should be 'Pathfinder BETA', and the final rules should
              be 'Pathfinder'.

              David
              Papa.DRB

              Grognard (definition 1)
              <http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edavidstuff/Grognard.html>
              My better half and me
              <http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edavidstuff/Nana-and-Papa2.JPG>
              Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.
              The Internet: Because None of Us Are As Dumb as All of Us


              Stefan Radermacher wrote:
              >> So, what are your feeling folks?
              >>
              >> Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
              >> the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
              >>
              >
              > I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
              > likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
              > Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
              > the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
              > set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
              > that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
              > package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
              > install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
              > mode files.
            • Hollis McCray
              ... I m agreeing as well. While I think most people will switch over to the final print rules, there will probably still be some people who are still using the
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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                On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, David R. Bender<Papa.DRB@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I agree with Stefan. The BETA needs to be kept around, but the menuentry
                > in the gamemode should be 'Pathfinder BETA', and the final rules should
                > be 'Pathfinder'.

                I'm agreeing as well. While I think most people will switch over to
                the final print rules, there will probably still be some people who
                are still using the beta rules.

                Maybe we could use a page for datasets that are no longer maintained
                or 'deprecated'? (To borrrow a bit of code-speak.)
                --
                Hollis McCray
                Mutant Registration Number #US2002023904

                Warning: Proximity to this individual may expose you to the following RPGs:
                Fate: http://www.faterpg.com
                Mutants & Masterminds: http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com
                Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies: http://www.7skies.net/
                Please visit these websites in order to protect yourself.
              • Jeff Miller
                I m currently reading the Core Rulebook now. I like what I see and will be switching son. I can imagine that there will be people who will want continued
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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                  I'm currently reading the Core Rulebook now. I like what I see and will
                  be switching son.

                  I can imagine that there will be people who will want continued support
                  for the free version but I don't currently see a need. Maybe freeze the
                  latest copy of PCGen for those who want the old set.

                  Mike Elliott wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There has been a little discussion among the data team
                  >
                  > working the new set about what needs to be done with
                  >
                  > the Pathfinder Beta data set and I believe a majority feeling
                  >
                  > we should do away with the beta set altogether, but, and
                  >
                  > let me stress this, there have been no decisions made
                  >
                  > because we all felt we needed to bring the question to
                  >
                  > the broader PCGen community.
                  >
                  > So, what are your feeling folks?
                  >
                  > Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
                  >
                  > the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
                  >
                  > Eric Smith
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --


                  Jeff Miller
                  http://businesscredittips.weebly.com
                  Voice: 949-249-3673
                  Skype: shadocat2







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Eddy Anthony
                  ... Why would this be necessary? If anyone wants to keep using the beta just keep using 5.16.1, it not like that release is going anywhere. At this point there
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 7, 2009
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                    Stefan Radermacher scribed:

                    >> So, what are your feeling folks?
                    >>
                    >> Would you prefer to use the Pathfinder Beta data set over
                    >> the upcoming Pathfinder Core Rulebook data set?
                    >
                    > I guess most people will want to use the Core Rulebook set, but it's quite
                    > likely that some people might rather want to keep using the Beta data set.
                    > Those, however, will probably in the minority. My proposal would be to delete
                    > the Beta set from the general release and replace it with the Core Rulebook
                    > set. The Bate set could then be released as an installable OOC data set so
                    > that anyone who wants to use it can install it along the regular PCGen
                    > package. However, this would make it necessary for the installable data set to
                    > install a new game mode along with it, as the two sets have differing game
                    > mode files.
                    >
                    > Stefan.

                    Why would this be necessary? If anyone wants to keep using the beta just
                    keep using 5.16.1, it not like that release is going anywhere. At this point
                    there will be no more work on the beta dataset, the LST monkeys involved
                    have all moved on to work on the final rules and source books to follow. For
                    us to keep the beta in the release or even as a OOC set means someone will
                    have to spend time maintaining it as we do with the other sets, and we are
                    limited in our monkeypower.

                    I will grant that with the advances with the data converter the maintenance
                    time should be much less than it has been in the past, so that is not really
                    a strong argument in and of itself. If we must keep it around my preference
                    would be an OOC set so that it is not in the PCGen release (which could lead
                    to some confusion) and we'd only need to update the set after each
                    production release.
                    --
                    ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                    ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                    ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
                  • Tir Gwaith
                    I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around.... Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn t need to be in the initial pop-up... I
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                      I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....

                      Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                      in the initial pop-up...

                      I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                      we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                      thing.


                      Tir Gwaith
                      PCGen LST Chimp
                    • Andrew Maitland
                      ... We already have separate gamemodes for them. Not an issue. I m getting the feeling that most people want the option to use either one. ... I have to agree
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                        Tir Gwaith wrote:
                        > I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                        >
                        > Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                        > in the initial pop-up...
                        >

                        We already have separate gamemodes for them. Not an issue. I'm getting
                        the feeling that most people want the option to use either one.
                        > I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                        > we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                        > thing.
                        >

                        I have to agree with Tir on this one. Beta and Full are two separate
                        entities just like 3e and 3.5e
                        >
                        > Tir Gwaith
                        > PCGen LST Chimp
                        >
                        >
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                        Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                        Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      • Eddy Anthony
                        ... Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I took a quick look at Paizo s site and I can no longer find a link to download the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                          Tir Gwaith wrote:
                          > I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                          >
                          > Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                          > in the initial pop-up...
                          >
                          > I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                          > we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                          > thing.

                          Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                          took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                          download the beta rules.

                          If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                          I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                          display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                          character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                          "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                          able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                          them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.

                          Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                          for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                          final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                          pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                          what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                          program bar display and in the pcg files.

                          --
                          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                          ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                          ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
                        • Tir Gwaith
                          ... Same thing about 3.0 when the 3.5 SRD came out. Hence our placing the 3.0 SOURCE files we had into SVN. That s more marketing than anything else (they
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 8, 2009
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                            On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Eddy Anthony<eddyba@...> wrote:
                            > Tir Gwaith wrote:
                            >> I say keep the Beta.  Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                            >>
                            >> Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                            >> in the initial pop-up...
                            >>
                            >> I don't think it should be removed from any releases.  If we do that,
                            >> we might as well remove 3.0 support.  I personally see it as the same
                            >> thing.
                            >
                            > Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                            > took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                            > download the beta rules.

                            Same thing about 3.0 when the 3.5 SRD came out. Hence our placing the
                            3.0 SOURCE files we had into SVN. That's more marketing than anything
                            else (they want people to buy & adopt their final version, not the
                            beta). Wizards did exactly the same thing. Oh, I can still download
                            the Beta from my personal Paizo account.

                            Has Paizo specifically requested us to stop hosting Beta files? That
                            would be a different story, and that's one of the two reasons we've
                            removed datasets before (the other being the few that were sooo buggy
                            and out of date, and we couldn't get anyone with a source to help
                            out.).

                            > If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                            > I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                            > display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                            > character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                            > "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                            > able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                            > them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.

                            It does? I thought that was the purpose of MENUENTRY (in
                            miscinfo.lst)? If all it does is the mnemonic, then it is fairly
                            dumb. We have the tag, just need to actually make the program use it
                            for the whole thing? If I'd known about that issue, I would have
                            pushed to call the Beta's GameMode PathfinderBeta or something. We
                            were fairly certain there would be GameMode changes between the Beta
                            and the Final.

                            > Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                            > for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                            > final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                            > pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                            > what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                            > program bar display and in the pcg files.

                            "Pathfinder RPG"... And for 5.17+/5.18 stable, let's have MENUENTRY
                            work, and make the Beta's display Pathfinder BETA.


                            Tir Gwaith
                            PCGen LST Chimp
                          • James Dempsey
                            Hi, On 9/09/2009 2:56 AM Eddy Anthony wrote ... See http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719 for the last round on
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                              Hi,

                              On 9/09/2009 2:56 AM Eddy Anthony wrote
                              > Tir Gwaith wrote:
                              >
                              >> I say keep the Beta. Heck, we keep 3.0 SRD set around....
                              >>
                              >> Definitely needs a separate GameMode, and probably doesn't need to be
                              >> in the initial pop-up...
                              >>
                              >> I don't think it should be removed from any releases. If we do that,
                              >> we might as well remove 3.0 support. I personally see it as the same
                              >> thing.
                              >>
                              >
                              > Somehow I doubt Paizo would see it that way. I may be missing it but I
                              > took a quick look at Paizo's site and I can no longer find a link to
                              > download the beta rules.
                              >
                              > If we keep it in the release we'll need to solve a particular problem
                              > I've encountered: PCGen uses the name of the gameMode directory for
                              > display on the top bar of the program and more importantly within the
                              > character pcg files. So if you change the gameMode folder from
                              > "Pathfinder" to something like "Pathfinder_Beta" you will no longer be
                              > able to open previously created characters without manually editing
                              > them. I think we can agree that we want to avoid this.
                              >
                              > Currently the final set under development uses the same directory name
                              > for it's gameMode as the beta. The simplest solution is to rename the
                              > final gameMode directory to something different which effects less
                              > pregenerated PC's because it hasn't gone public yet. So the question is
                              > what should that be bearing in mind that that's what will appear on the
                              > program bar display and in the pcg files.
                              >
                              See
                              http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                              for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                              tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                              different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                              like PCC files and saved characters.

                              What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                              (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                              to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                              bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                              load. Would that solve the problem?

                              Cheers,
                              James Dempsey
                              PCGen Code SB
                            • Tir Gwaith
                              ... Totally. :) I ll read the tracker when I get home from work. Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                > See
                                > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                                > for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                                > tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                                > different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                                > like PCC files and saved characters.
                                >
                                > What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                                > (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                                > to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                                > bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                                > load. Would that solve the problem?

                                Totally. :)

                                I'll read the tracker when I get home from work.

                                Tir Gwaith
                                PCGen LST Chimp
                              • mosat22
                                ... Thanks for the blast from the past James, I knew it was something that put me through the ringer but I couldn t remember the details. Yes I think your
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi,
                                  > See
                                  > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1549384&group_id=25576&atid=384719
                                  > for the last round on game mode names. This resulted in the GAMEMODEKEY
                                  > tag being created that allows the folder and the game mode name to be
                                  > different. That bug was all about the behind the scenes stuff though,
                                  > like PCC files and saved characters.
                                  >
                                  > What can be done now is to have the program display the MENUENTRY
                                  > (without the & for shortcuts) when it wants to present a game mode name
                                  > to the user. That way you would see Pathfinder Beta in the program title
                                  > bar but the folder name could remain the same and characters would still
                                  > load. Would that solve the problem?
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > James Dempsey
                                  > PCGen Code SB

                                  Thanks for the blast from the past James, I knew it was something that put me through the ringer but I couldn't remember the details.

                                  Yes I think your suggestion is a good resolution. Is it minor enough that it can be considered for the 5.16.2 release?

                                  Thanks.
                                  -Eddy
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