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Mac OS 10.4.x and PCGen support

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  • Martijn Verburg
    PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS. So
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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      PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.

      So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.

      Thanks!
      K
    • Lucio Bragagnolo
      ... I use Mac OS X 10.5 and will upgrade to 10.6 in September. My personal guess is that it shouldn t be a big issue, especially if PCGen 6.0 will arrive in a
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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        So Martijn Verburg said, 22-07-2009:

        >PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen
        >(6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
        >
        >So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS
        >10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have
        >available to run PCGen on.

        I use Mac OS X 10.5 and will upgrade to 10.6 in September.

        My personal guess is that it shouldn't be a big issue, especially if PCGen 6.0 will arrive in a year or so. I know several people still on 10.4, but none of them either roleplays or use PCGen and I suspect it's not a coincidence.

        Nobody asked for my vote, but I'd agree on dropping support for 10.4 if there was one. :)

        lux


        --
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      • James
        ... I use Macs excusively, by choice. So it is nice to have programs and developers who still write for the Mac OS. I have enjoyed your program and use it
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
          >
          > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
          >
          > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
          >
          > Thanks!
          > K
          >
          I use Macs excusively, by choice. So it is nice to have programs and developers who still write for the Mac OS. I have enjoyed your program and use it extensively for my gaming needs.

          J. Minard
          Staunch Mac Supporter
        • Martijn Verburg
          Hi James, Is it OS 10.4.x you use or 10.5.x? We re not looking to drop support for 10.5.x, only 10.4.x K
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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            Hi James,

            Is it OS 10.4.x you use or 10.5.x? We're not looking to drop support for 10.5.x, only 10.4.x

            K

            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@> wrote:
            > >
            > > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
            > >
            > > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > K
            > >
            > I use Macs exclusively, by choice. So it is nice to have programs and developers who still write for the Mac OS. I have enjoyed your program and use it extensively for my gaming needs.
            >
            > J. Minard
            > Staunch Mac Supporter
            >
          • alcore@uurth.com
            ... I don t use Mac... but I do have feedback to offer. Please avoid external dependencies! In particular, please avoid using extensions of Java that aren t
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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              "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
              > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for
              > the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version
              > of Java that is tied to Mac OS.

              I don't use Mac... but I do have feedback to offer.

              Please avoid external dependencies! In particular, please avoid using
              extensions of Java that aren't portable to the widest possible range of
              platforms.

              I realize that this means having to reinvent the wheel sometimes. After
              all, some newer version of Java XYZ has a built in function to do
              something and that version is available to most platforms and users...
              but not all.

              The thing is: I hate upgrades. I don't do upgrades when I can help it.
              Most users don't. I'm still using PCGen 5.10. I'm using it because
              I've invested effort in customized data sets that I've built by hand...
              and they don't port forward automatically. I'm still using it because I
              have dozens of NPCs that I maintain in it. It really doesn't matter
              that tools exist to help migrate old data sets, it still requires extra
              effort. I have enough trouble getting the stuff I need built, without
              having to go through upgrade chaos every year or so. And even after a
              data set is updated, all the characters that need it are still broken.
              So I don't upgrade until I run into a brick wall that can't be solved in
              the current version...

              My OS is the same. The *ONLY* reason I have the Java I've got now is
              because of PCGen. I actually liked the tool enough to do the upgrade
              needed for 5.10.x...

              My point here is this: The PCGen development team suffers just a bit
              from "Bleeding Edge Geek"-itis. The gifted tech-heads that are building
              PCGen for us (and I *AM* very greatful) tend not be like me or an
              ordinary user. And they forget that most of us just need it to be as
              usable *and universally portable* as possible. The average user of
              PCGen just wants a stable chargen tool. As I have said, I love PCGen
              and am deeply grateful to the team... but *!#@ can't yall build in
              support to automatically convert older saved characters into newer
              versions of PCGen? That is *the* reason I haven't upgraded recently, I
              just don't want to rebuild all those saved NPCs from scratch again.


              OK... I've ranted about version creep and probably over-killed my piont
              by enough to require a saving throw against death from massive damage.


              The point I really want in focus is that PCGen is a marvellous tool, and
              one of it's best features is portability. Please don't imperil it's
              appeal by succumbing to the urge to upgrade to a newer version of Java.
              If anything, I'd be happier if it were made even *less* Java version
              sensitive than it is now. That way I wouldn't have to worry about
              Microsoft forcing me to change OSs or other platform changes breaking my
              PCGen installation. I might yet get a Mac just to spite Microsoft...
              and if I do, I'll want whatever version of PCGen I've baselined on to
              run on it.

              Gene Pharr
              Slidell LA
            • Ace Logan
              ... With 10.6 just around the corner, literally, I don t see any reason you should actively support 10.4 still. I d keep the last version around linked on the
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                James wrote:
                >
                >
                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, "Martijn
                > Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the
                > next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that
                > is tied to Mac OS.
                > >
                > > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only
                > being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary
                > machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.

                With 10.6 just around the corner, literally, I don't see any reason you
                should actively support 10.4 still. I'd keep the last version around
                linked on the page for those who still do have that OS with a link to a
                blurb saying why active developement has been dropped.

                In my opinion, not doing so is going to hinder things more then doing so
                by far.

                --
                Rick Hamell
                http://BBXGame.com - Gaming Blog
                http://1nova.com/Photoblog - Pacific Northwest Photoblog
                http://1nova.com/blog - Tech Blog
              • Chris
                ... I use pcgen on my macbook pro al the time...
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                  >
                  > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  > K
                  >
                  I use pcgen on my macbook pro al the time...
                • John Reiher
                  I m currently running Mac OS 10.4.11 and until the economy picks up and my work picks up, I m stuck with that OS for a while. ... -- John Reiher Have Mac, will
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                    I'm currently running Mac OS 10.4.11 and until the economy picks up
                    and my work picks up, I'm stuck with that OS for a while.

                    On Jul 22, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Martijn Verburg wrote:

                    > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the
                    > next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java
                    > that is tied to Mac OS.
                    >
                    > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with
                    > only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your
                    > primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to
                    > run PCGen on.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    > K

                    --
                    John Reiher
                    Have Mac, will Travel
                    ==========
                    Live Journal:
                    http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnreiher/
                    My Living Sustainability Blog:
                    http://kedamono.wordpress.com
                    ------------------------
                    "Another one of them new worlds.
                    No beer, no women, no pool parlors - nothin'.
                    Nothing to do but throw rocks at tin cans and we got to bring our own
                    tin cans."
                    ---- Ship's Cook, United Planets Cruiser C-57D
                    Forbidden Planet






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jeremy Trabue
                    I only use a Mac and would not be able to use a version of PCGen that wasn t supported on a Mac. Thanks for asking. --JT j_trabue@yahoo.com
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                      I only use a Mac and would not be able to use a version of PCGen that wasn't supported on a Mac.

                      Thanks for asking.

                      --JT

                      j_trabue@...

                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                      >
                      > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      > K
                      >
                    • Eric C. Smith
                      Greetings Folks! ... I use Mac OSX 10.4 (on an early Mac Mini) and 10.5 (on a mid-2004 G5). The Mac Mini is my primary machine and is unfortunately more
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                        Greetings Folks!

                        Kar wrote:
                        >
                        > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x
                        > for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version
                        > of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                        >
                        > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck'
                        > with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g.
                        > It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you
                        > have available to run PCGen on.
                        >

                        I use Mac OSX 10.4 (on an early Mac Mini) and 10.5 (on a mid-2004 G5).

                        The Mac Mini is my primary machine and is unfortunately more
                        reliable than the G5. I will eventually move over to the G5 as the
                        primary machine, unless I find a way to pick up an Intel Mac,
                        some-time next year. After I work out the reliability issue.

                        So, yes, I would like us to NOT move to Java 1.6 as the minimum.
                        I might change my mind, depending on the timing of 6.0.

                        On the other hand, if the team decides to make the move, I will
                        still use PCGen. I will just have to force the issue of moving from
                        the MacMini to the G5.

                        Maredudd
                      • Eric C. Smith
                        Hi Folks! ... I am not a code monkey so I m not certain how not requiring Java 1.6 would hinder PCGen development. The key isn t how soon the new Mac OS is
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                          Hi Folks!

                          Ace wrote:
                          > > Kar wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the
                          > > next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that
                          > > is tied to Mac OS.
                          > > >
                          > > > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only
                          > > being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary
                          > > machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                          >
                          > With 10.6 just around the corner, literally, I don't see any reason you
                          > should actively support 10.4 still. I'd keep the last version around
                          > linked on the page for those who still do have that OS with a link to a
                          > blurb saying why active developement has been dropped.
                          >
                          > In my opinion, not doing so is going to hinder things more then doing so
                          > by far.

                          I am not a code monkey so I'm not certain how not requiring
                          Java 1.6 would hinder PCGen development. The key isn't how
                          soon the new Mac OS is coming out, but how many folks are
                          using, and how many will continue using, Mac OSX 10.4.

                          I have a four-year old Mac that would become obsolete where
                          running PCGen is concerned. Four years seems a terribly short
                          time period to me.

                          Maredudd
                        • Eric C. Smith
                          Hi Folks! Taking the intent of Kars questions into account, when responding to this thread, please remember to indicate what version of the Mac OS you are
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                            Hi Folks!

                            Taking the intent of Kars questions into account, when
                            responding to this thread, please remember to indicate
                            what version of the Mac OS you are using for your primary
                            computer.

                            The issue, in case its not clear, is that Mac OSX 10.4
                            supports Java 1.5. Support for Java 1.6, which is what
                            the PCGen team is considering making a requirement,
                            became available in Mac OSX 10.5.

                            Maredudd

                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <singerbear@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                            > >
                            > > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks!
                            > > K
                            > >
                            > I use pcgen on my macbook pro al the time...
                            >
                          • Eric C. Smith
                            Hi Folks! ... The question isn t whether we drop support for the Mac. That won t be happening. The question is do we need to keep supporting Mac OS 10.4 as
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                              Hi Folks!

                              Jeremy wrote:
                              >
                              > I only use a Mac and would not be able to use a version
                              > of PCGen that wasn't supported on a Mac.
                              >

                              The question isn't whether we drop support for the Mac. That won't be happening. The question is do we need to keep supporting Mac OS 10.4 as opposed to Mac OS 10.5 and beyond.

                              10.4 supports Java 1.5 while 10.5 supports Java 1.6.

                              Maredudd

                              >
                              > j_trabue@...
                              >
                              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                              > >
                              > > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks!
                              > > K
                              > >
                              >
                            • azhrei_fje
                              What is it about PCGen that requires features of 10.5 vs. 10.4? I presume it s that Java 6 is available on 10.5 and not 10.4. But what features of Java 6
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 22, 2009
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                                What is it about PCGen that requires features of 10.5 vs. 10.4? I presume it's that Java 6 is available on 10.5 and not 10.4.

                                But what features of Java 6 preclude using PCGen on Java 5? My understanding was that most features of J6 were under the covers and code written to J6 would compile and run on J5, but would lose features like graphics engine optimization and support for scripting languages (I forget the JSR, but I know the Rhino implementation of javascript is bundled with J6 while J5 users have to download and install it separately).

                                Over at RPTools we have five applications for role-playing gamers: MapTool (the flagship of the group), CharTool, InitTool, DiceTool, and TokenTool. DiceTool and CharTool both use the scripting facilities of J6 but the others still run on J5 and to be honest, while it would be nice to reduce the number of JVMs to support, there

                                I found a good comparison of the two versions at http://cyberkruz.vox.com/library/post/differences-between-java-5-and-6.html and for PCGen, I just don't see a compelling reason to drop support for 10.4.

                                Opinions?

                                Disclaimer: I'm Azhrei over at forums.rptools.net: site admin and a minor part-time code contributor to MapTool. Oh, and I run OS 10.4 on my MBP currently. (Although I'm getting fed up with Apple and thinking of wiping OSX to install Kubuntu -- my favorite OS/Desktop.)

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                                > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                                >
                                > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                                >
                                > Thanks!
                                > K
                              • Martijn Verburg
                                Hi there, Thanks for your response! It s good to hear from one of the RPTools guys, we re actually getting in touch with Trevor shortly about a separate
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                  Hi there,

                                  Thanks for your response! It's good to hear from one of the RPTools guys, we're actually getting in touch with Trevor shortly about a separate matter (but hopefully something good for both parties).

                                  > What is it about PCGen that requires features of 10.5 vs. 10.4? I
                                  > presume it's that Java 6 is available on 10.5 and not 10.4.

                                  Correct it is the fact that Java 6 (1.6) is _not_ supported on 10.4.x, (it is supported on 10.5.x. There are enhancements to the UI capabilities of Java 6 that would be helpful to us as part of the GUI overhaul project (something that's on the 6.0.0 Roadmap).

                                  Thanks again

                                  K
                                • Martijn Verburg
                                  Hi all, ... That s what we re trying to weigh up :). For example, if the features of Java 6 save us 500 hours of development time and only 3 users are
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                    Hi all,

                                    > I don't use Mac... but I do have feedback to offer.
                                    >
                                    > Please avoid external dependencies! In particular, please avoid
                                    > using extensions of Java that aren't portable to the widest
                                    > possible range of platforms.
                                    >
                                    > I realize that this means having to reinvent the wheel sometimes.
                                    > After all, some newer version of Java XYZ has a built in function
                                    > to do something and that version is available to most platforms and
                                    > users... but not all.

                                    That's what we're trying to weigh up :). For example, if the features of Java 6 save us 500 hours of development time and only 3 users are adversely affected by the upgrade then unfortunately for those 3 users we will probably upgrade. If the features of Java 6 only save us 50 hours and it adversely affects 50 users then obviously we won't shift.

                                    > The thing is: I hate upgrades. I don't do upgrades when I can
                                    > help it. Most users don't. I'm still using PCGen 5.10. I'm using
                                    > it because I've invested effort in customized data sets that I've
                                    > built by hand... and they don't port forward automatically. I'm
                                    > still using it because I have dozens of NPCs that I maintain in
                                    > it. It really doesn't matter that tools exist to help migrate old
                                    > data sets, it still requires extra effort. I have enough trouble
                                    > getting the stuff I need built, without having to go through
                                    > upgrade chaos every year or so. And even after a data set is
                                    > updated, all the characters that need it are still broken.
                                    > So I don't upgrade until I run into a brick wall that can't be
                                    > solved in the current version...

                                    If you are going to remain with PCGen 5.10.x (I assume you're running 5.10.2) then you won't be affected at all. 5.10.x will not all of a sudden need a newer version of Java to run.

                                    > My OS is the same. The *ONLY* reason I have the Java I've got now
                                    > is because of PCGen. I actually liked the tool enough to do the
                                    > upgrade needed for 5.10.x...
                                    >
                                    > My point here is this: The PCGen development team suffers just a
                                    > bit from "Bleeding Edge Geek"-itis. The gifted tech-heads that are
                                    > building PCGen for us (and I *AM* very greatful) tend not be like
                                    > me or an ordinary user. And they forget that most of us just need
                                    > it to be as usable *and universally portable* as possible.

                                    I can only partially agree with that statement. We haven't changed the version of Java required to run PCGen since 5.10.2 (which was several years ago now) and we only do a major release on average once a year. I can't see that as being particularly bleeding edge :). We _did_ follow a bad practice of not providing a way for users to automatically update their data, this has since been remedied.

                                    > The average user of PCGen just wants a stable chargen tool. As I
                                    > have said, I love PCGen and am deeply grateful to the team... but
                                    > *!#@ can't yall build in support to automatically convert older
                                    > saved characters into newer versions of PCGen? That is *the*
                                    > reason I haven't upgraded recently, I just don't want to rebuild
                                    > all those saved NPCs from scratch again.

                                    As of 5.16.0 onwards this support has been built into PCGen. Unfortunately we were unable to go back and provide in-built converters for the older versions (it simply would take 1000's of hours to do). There are conversion scripts that you can use and the community here will help you get through any issues you have during that process!

                                    > The point I really want in focus is that PCGen is a marvellous
                                    > tool, and one of it's best features is portability. Please don't
                                    > imperil it's appeal by succumbing to the urge to upgrade to a newer
                                    > version of Java.
                                    >
                                    > If anything, I'd be happier if it were made even *less* Java version
                                    > sensitive than it is now. That way I wouldn't have to worry about
                                    > Microsoft forcing me to change OSs or other platform changes
                                    > breaking my PCGen installation. I might yet get a Mac just to
                                    > spite Microsoft...
                                    > and if I do, I'll want whatever version of PCGen I've baselined on
                                    > to run on it.

                                    Well at the moment it is developed in Java 5 and will run on Java 5 or Java 6. All major OS's (Windows, UNIX, Linux, Mac OS 10.5.x) support Java 6, which only leaves Mac OS 10.4.x. So as I stated above we need to weigh up how many users we would adversely affect vs how much time we can save by updating the version of Java that PCGen is developed in and can run on.

                                    K
                                  • alcore@uurth.com
                                    Gene P. My Personal Webpage: ... That s fair and appropriate. I suppose I m just sensitive to forced
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                      Gene P. <alcore@...>
                                      My Personal Webpage: <http://www.uurth.com/alcore>


                                      "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                                      > That's what we're trying to weigh up :). For example, if the
                                      > features of Java 6 save us 500 hours of development time and only
                                      > 3 users are adversely affected by the upgrade then unfortunately
                                      > for those 3 users we will probably upgrade. If the features of
                                      > Java 6 only save us 50 hours and it adversely affects 50 users
                                      > then obviously we won't shift.

                                      That's fair and appropriate. I suppose I'm just sensitive to forced
                                      upgrades, since Micro$oft's master plan of perpetual obsolescence has
                                      sucked untold dollars out of my wallet.

                                      What with Wizbro behaving in a similar fashion, I've developed a habit
                                      of objecting to version creep.

                                      > If you are going to remain with PCGen 5.10.x (I assume you're
                                      > running 5.10.2) then you won't be affected at all. 5.10.x will
                                      > not all of a sudden need a newer version of Java to run.

                                      Oh, I understand that. But at *some* point, I'm going to upgrade and
                                      rebaseline. Your comments about automatic migration in the 5.16.x line
                                      (and forward) have already set my gears turning and I may soon take that
                                      step.

                                      And that's rather my point. PCGen does occasionally give me a killer
                                      reason to upgrade. It is, after all, perhaps the best DND support tool
                                      ever written. If, in order to upgrade to a better version of PCGen, I
                                      must also pay hours and possibly dollars on pre-requisite upgrades, it
                                      hurts.

                                      I do understand that it is sometimes necessary. I am a software
                                      engineer myself. But I'm a fossil. I was able to use FORTRAN
                                      essentially unchanged for more than 15 years and I still ascribe to the
                                      notion that portable software is written in ANSI standard C. (Although
                                      I do like the extensions of early C++.)

                                      :-)

                                      Like I said, I'm a fossil... and I'm told, often a curmudgeon. And I
                                      get especially possessive of things I find really useful: Like PCGen.

                                      > [...] We haven't changed the version of Java required to run
                                      > PCGen since 5.10.2 (which was several years ago now) and we only
                                      > do a major release on average once a year. I can't see that as
                                      > being particularly bleeding edge :).

                                      I suppose you're right. And in the end I'd probably be even grouchier
                                      if yall weren't so diligent about fixing and improving things.

                                      PCGen is most definitely *NOT* abandoned, it is gloriously and vibrantly
                                      alive with people who care about it.

                                      [snip]
                                      > Well at the moment it is developed in Java 5 and will run on
                                      > Java 5 or Java 6. All major OS's (Windows, UNIX, Linux, Mac
                                      > OS 10.5.x) support Java 6, which only leaves Mac OS 10.4.x.
                                      > So as I stated above we need to weigh up how many users we would
                                      > adversely affect vs how much time we can save by updating the
                                      > version of Java that PCGen is developed in and can run on.

                                      I salute your effort. The one thing that is inevitable is that you will
                                      have to upgrade eventually...

                                      (I occasionally wonder if this "cloud computing" and "virtualization"
                                      movement in systems and software will eventually free us from the need
                                      to upgrade things... And then I remember the project I saw here at the
                                      office recently to apply security patches to our OS2/Warp virtual
                                      machines. We're upgrading machines that don't even exist on real
                                      hardware! And next month we'll be doing the same to a bunch of backend
                                      systems that are still running DOS6... Again on virtual machines and
                                      accessed somewhere in the cloud via Citrix! Oy!)

                                      Gene P.
                                      alcore@...
                                    • Paul
                                      ... Hey Gene, one thing you might want to think of is if you don t have the time to upgrade your custom data files to the current version. You can see if
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 23, 2009
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                                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, alcore@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Gene P. <alcore@...>
                                        > My Personal Webpage: <http://www.uurth.com/alcore>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                                        > > That's what we're trying to weigh up :). For example, if the
                                        > > features of Java 6 save us 500 hours of development time and only
                                        > > 3 users are adversely affected by the upgrade then unfortunately
                                        > > for those 3 users we will probably upgrade. If the features of
                                        > > Java 6 only save us 50 hours and it adversely affects 50 users
                                        > > then obviously we won't shift.
                                        >
                                        > That's fair and appropriate. I suppose I'm just sensitive to forced
                                        > upgrades, since Micro$oft's master plan of perpetual obsolescence has
                                        > sucked untold dollars out of my wallet.
                                        >
                                        > What with Wizbro behaving in a similar fashion, I've developed a habit
                                        > of objecting to version creep.
                                        >
                                        > > If you are going to remain with PCGen 5.10.x (I assume you're
                                        > > running 5.10.2) then you won't be affected at all. 5.10.x will
                                        > > not all of a sudden need a newer version of Java to run.
                                        >
                                        > Oh, I understand that. But at *some* point, I'm going to upgrade and
                                        > rebaseline. Your comments about automatic migration in the 5.16.x line
                                        > (and forward) have already set my gears turning and I may soon take that
                                        > step.
                                        >
                                        > And that's rather my point. PCGen does occasionally give me a killer
                                        > reason to upgrade. It is, after all, perhaps the best DND support tool
                                        > ever written. If, in order to upgrade to a better version of PCGen, I
                                        > must also pay hours and possibly dollars on pre-requisite upgrades, it
                                        > hurts.
                                        >
                                        > I do understand that it is sometimes necessary. I am a software
                                        > engineer myself. But I'm a fossil. I was able to use FORTRAN
                                        > essentially unchanged for more than 15 years and I still ascribe to the
                                        > notion that portable software is written in ANSI standard C. (Although
                                        > I do like the extensions of early C++.)
                                        >
                                        > :-)
                                        >
                                        > Like I said, I'm a fossil... and I'm told, often a curmudgeon. And I
                                        > get especially possessive of things I find really useful: Like PCGen.
                                        >
                                        > > [...] We haven't changed the version of Java required to run
                                        > > PCGen since 5.10.2 (which was several years ago now) and we only
                                        > > do a major release on average once a year. I can't see that as
                                        > > being particularly bleeding edge :).
                                        >
                                        > I suppose you're right. And in the end I'd probably be even grouchier
                                        > if yall weren't so diligent about fixing and improving things.
                                        >
                                        > PCGen is most definitely *NOT* abandoned, it is gloriously and vibrantly
                                        > alive with people who care about it.
                                        >
                                        > [snip]
                                        > > Well at the moment it is developed in Java 5 and will run on
                                        > > Java 5 or Java 6. All major OS's (Windows, UNIX, Linux, Mac
                                        > > OS 10.5.x) support Java 6, which only leaves Mac OS 10.4.x.
                                        > > So as I stated above we need to weigh up how many users we would
                                        > > adversely affect vs how much time we can save by updating the
                                        > > version of Java that PCGen is developed in and can run on.
                                        >
                                        > I salute your effort. The one thing that is inevitable is that you will
                                        > have to upgrade eventually...
                                        >
                                        > (I occasionally wonder if this "cloud computing" and "virtualization"
                                        > movement in systems and software will eventually free us from the need
                                        > to upgrade things... And then I remember the project I saw here at the
                                        > office recently to apply security patches to our OS2/Warp virtual
                                        > machines. We're upgrading machines that don't even exist on real
                                        > hardware! And next month we'll be doing the same to a bunch of backend
                                        > systems that are still running DOS6... Again on virtual machines and
                                        > accessed somewhere in the cloud via Citrix! Oy!)
                                        >
                                        > Gene P.
                                        > alcore@...
                                        >

                                        Hey Gene, one thing you might want to think of is if you don't have the time to upgrade your custom data files to the current version. You can see if somebody on the data team would update them for you for a small amount of cash, or even a sourcebook they don't have. :)
                                      • Hoshi
                                        Hi, Thank you for thinking about the Macies. Mac is the only computer I run. However, if worse come to worse, we always have Wine. It doesn t as smoothly
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                          Hi,
                                          Thank you for thinking about the Macies. Mac is the only computer I run. However, if worse come to worse, we always have Wine. It doesn't as smoothly but it does work.

                                          p.s. I just started using PCGen, I am very impressed. Thank You. If i can find the time i'd like to start working on an editing program for lst files, something similar to the rules editor in eTools.



                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@...>
                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:28:41 AM
                                          Subject: [pcgen] Mac OS 10.4.x and PCGen support


                                          PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.

                                          So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.

                                          Thanks!
                                          K







                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • John Kono
                                          ... There are a few things you may want to keep in mind when making this decision. First, 10.4 is the newest version that many pre-G5 PPC machines can run
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                            On Jul 22, 2009, at 01:28, Martijn Verburg wrote:

                                            > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only
                                            > being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary
                                            > machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen
                                            > on.

                                            There are a few things you may want to keep in mind when making this
                                            decision. First, 10.4 is the newest version that many pre-G5 PPC
                                            machines can run without a fair amount of hacking. Second, 10.5 will
                                            be the final release to support PPC processors at all.

                                            Given the above, I must throw in my hat with those who have voiced
                                            concern over the "latest and greatest" philosophy in choosing Java
                                            environments. Setting aside the straw-man "500 hours of development
                                            to support 3 people" argument, the version of Java chosen should be
                                            the oldest supported version that can accomplish the job.

                                            It doesn't make any sense to move to a new version of the platform
                                            unless there is a compelling reason to do so (e.g. the current
                                            development version has been EOL'ed). If that's the case, then move
                                            forward and don't look back. But if not, and given the fact that this
                                            question is even being posed it probably isn't, then it would be
                                            better to stay with the version that supports the most platforms.

                                            For the record, I use a mix of 10.4 and 10.5 and will probably
                                            continue to use PCGen regardless of whether you support 10.4 -- in
                                            fact, I'm still using PCGen 5.10.1 because of it's such a hassle to
                                            fix the output sheets every time you guys issue an update (yes, I've
                                            submitted bug and change request, but have been accused of being too
                                            US-centric for my troubles) and because of the bone-headed decision to
                                            stash *all* of the .lst files inside the application bundle without
                                            any provision for adding an additional external directory for user-
                                            generated or modified content. (Yes, I know that I can change the
                                            document directory path but no, I shouldn't have to go through that BS
                                            every time I upgrade.)

                                            Cheers,
                                            John

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Martijn Verburg
                                            Hi Hoshi, Thanks for your feedback! If you are interested in working on the new LST Editor then please let me know, we can get you started! K
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 28, 2009
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                                              Hi Hoshi,

                                              Thanks for your feedback! If you are interested in working on the new LST Editor then please let me know, we can get you started!

                                              K

                                              > Hi,
                                              > Thank you for thinking about the Macies. Mac is the only computer I run. However, if worse come to worse, we always have Wine. It doesn't as smoothly but it does work.
                                              >
                                              > p.s. I just started using PCGen, I am very impressed. Thank You. If i can find the time i'd like to start working on an editing program for lst files, something similar to the rules editor in eTools.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@...>
                                              > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:28:41 AM
                                              > Subject: [pcgen] Mac OS 10.4.x and PCGen support
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > PCGen is investigating dropping support for Mac OS 10.4.x for the next version of PCGen (6.0.0), this is due to the version of Java that is tied to Mac OS.
                                              >
                                              > So we'd like to know how many of you out there are 'stuck' with only being able to use Mac OS 10.4.x for PCGen. e.g. It's your primary machine and/or it's the only machine you have available to run PCGen on.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks!
                                              > K
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Martijn Verburg
                                              Hi there, Thanks for your feedback, answers inline! ... Actually this is a reason why this question was posed, Java reaches end of life October 2009, although
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 28, 2009
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                                                Hi there,

                                                Thanks for your feedback, answers inline!

                                                > There are a few things you may want to keep in mind when making
                                                > this decision. First, 10.4 is the newest version that many pre-G5
                                                > PPC machines can run without a fair amount of hacking. Second,
                                                > 10.5 will be the final release to support PPC processors at all.
                                                >
                                                > Given the above, I must throw in my hat with those who have voiced
                                                > concern over the "latest and greatest" philosophy in choosing Java
                                                > environments. Setting aside the straw-man "500 hours of
                                                > development to support 3 people" argument, the version of Java
                                                > chosen should be the oldest supported version that can accomplish
                                                > the job.
                                                >
                                                > It doesn't make any sense to move to a new version of the platform
                                                > unless there is a compelling reason to do so (e.g. the current
                                                > development version has been EOL'ed). If that's the case, then
                                                > move forward and don't look back. But if not, and given the fact
                                                > that this question is even being posed it probably isn't, then it
                                                > would be better to stay with the version that supports the most
                                                > platforms.

                                                Actually this is a reason why this question was posed, Java reaches end of life October 2009, although there's no reason why we couldn't continue with it (we're not a corporation worried about Java security updates etc).

                                                > For the record, I use a mix of 10.4 and 10.5 and will probably
                                                > continue to use PCGen regardless of whether you support 10.4 -- in
                                                > fact, I'm still using PCGen 5.10.1 because of it's such a hassle
                                                > to fix the output sheets every time you guys issue an update (yes,
                                                > I've submitted bug and change request, but have been accused of
                                                > being too US-centric for my troubles)

                                                What trackers numbers are these in particular?

                                                > and because of the
                                                > bone-headed decision to stash *all* of the .lst files inside the
                                                > application bundle without any provision for adding an additional
                                                > external directory for user-generated or modified content. (Yes, I
                                                > know that I can change the document directory path but no, I
                                                > shouldn't have to go through that BS every time I upgrade.)

                                                We actually provide a mechanism for custom data and having that preserved between versions, can you provide some concrete details of your problem?

                                                K
                                              • Rj
                                                hi. since Apple has dropped support for all macs running 10.4, and only ships new computers with versions of 10.6 since earlier this year, we probably need to
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 13, 2010
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                                                  hi. since Apple has dropped support for all macs running 10.4, and only ships new computers with versions of 10.6 since earlier this year, we probably need to be thinking in terms of having builds that work on whatever versions of java are available for 10.6, as mac sales are growing and a lot of people are abandoning their G4's, G5's, and older macs.
                                                • Eric C Smith
                                                  Hi Folks! ... PCGen currently requires JAVA 1.5 which is supported by Mac OSX 10.6.x. And I have a G5 and a Mac Mini G4 and do not plan to upgrade within the
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 13, 2010
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                                                    Hi Folks!

                                                    Rj wrote:
                                                    > hi. since Apple has dropped support for all macs running 10.4, and
                                                    > only ships new computers with versions of 10.6 since earlier this
                                                    > year, we probably need to be thinking in terms of having builds that
                                                    > work on whatever versions of java are available for 10.6, as mac
                                                    > sales are growing and a lot of people are abandoning their G4's,
                                                    > G5's, and older macs.
                                                    >

                                                    PCGen currently requires JAVA 1.5 which is supported by Mac OSX 10.6.x.

                                                    And I have a G5 and a Mac Mini G4 and do not plan to upgrade within
                                                    the next 6 months. And when I do, I will still have the G5 available
                                                    for folks to use when they come to my house for games, so I for onew
                                                    would like to maintain compatibility with Mac OSX 10.5.x.

                                                    Maredudd
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