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"Removers"

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  • CC Noram Carstensen James
    I think this is mostly for Frugal and Steven. A bit back you were discussing having an add and remove effect for each entity. (Darn, hope I m getting the
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 11, 2004
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      I think this is mostly for Frugal and Steven.

      A bit back you were discussing having an "add" and "remove" effect for
      each entity. (Darn, hope I'm getting the terminology correct.) Reading
      the main PCGen group brought to mind a few examples where it isn't a
      progression but rather boolean ability.

      For example, say a magic item that allows you to speak Dwarven. (Belt
      of Dwarvenkind.) When removing it, it should only remove the ability to
      speak dwarven IFF nothing else grants dwarven. A character who chose it
      with the Speak Languages skill should still have it.

      Weapon proficiencies for classes are another example. The Fighter 5
      who's user mistakenly added a level of sorcerer (granting simple
      weapons) and then removed it should still have simple weapon proficiency
      as granted by the fighter.

      Is this a problem in what you are suggesting, or not an issue at all?
      It seems part of the issue you were trying to remove was the need to
      recalculate /everything/ each time something was changed.

      Or I might just be misunderstanding.

      Cheers,
      Jim
    • Steven Bethard
      Sorry I ve been gone for a while. The prelim s over now, though so things should be better. So most of what we had talked about before was what Effects that
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 11, 2004
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        Sorry I've been gone for a while. The prelim's over now, though so things
        should be better.

        So most of what we had talked about before was what Effects that modified
        Variables would look like. Jim's comments suggest to me that we should
        probably start talking about what the Effects that add Entities to other
        Entities look like. I haven't thought about this too deeply yet, but I
        thought I'd throw out some ideas to get us started.

        So let's say we have an Effect 'Add Dwarven Language Entity' and an Entity
        (Belt) that applies this Effect to another Entity (Character). The way I
        had envisioned it, we would also have an Effect 'Add Dwarven Language
        Entity' that was applied by increasing the 'Speak Languages' Variable. So
        if we followed this line of Effects, the character would, at the end, have
        two 'Dwarven Language Entity's. If you then removed the Effect from the
        belt, it would remove only one of the Entities.

        The advantage of this approach is that it is simple from the perspective of
        Effects. An Add-Entity-Effect always adds the Entity when applied and
        always removes the Entity when removed. There may be disadvantages to
        storing multiple identical Entities though...

        Another scenario: We have an Effect 'Remove Dwarven Language Entity', say,
        some belt that removes the ability to speak Dwarven if the character can
        speak Dwarven. If the belt is removed, any lost language is restored.

        My thoughts on this one: When you apply the Effect to a character without
        Dwarven, the Effect is inactive. When an Entity (like the Dwarven Language
        Entity) is added to the character, we activate any appropriate inactive
        Effects. So if the character learned Dwarven, the Effect would become
        active and remove it. If the Effect was removed and it was inactive, it
        would not attempt to remove anything from the character. If the Effect was
        removed and it was active, it would remove the Dwarven Language Entity from
        the character.

        This is somewhat more complicated than the original situation. Is it too
        complicated? As far as the data is concerned, we won't ever have to encode
        'active' or 'inactive' for an effect, just the conditions under which it
        applies. I'm only bringing these things up because I want to make sure that
        any encoding we decide on is actually implementable. =)

        Steve

        -----Original Message-----
        From: CC Noram Carstensen James [mailto:james.carstensen@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:50 AM
        To: pcgen-xml@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [pcgen-xml] "Removers"


        I think this is mostly for Frugal and Steven.

        A bit back you were discussing having an "add" and "remove" effect for
        each entity. (Darn, hope I'm getting the terminology correct.) Reading
        the main PCGen group brought to mind a few examples where it isn't a
        progression but rather boolean ability.

        For example, say a magic item that allows you to speak Dwarven. (Belt
        of Dwarvenkind.) When removing it, it should only remove the ability to
        speak dwarven IFF nothing else grants dwarven. A character who chose it
        with the Speak Languages skill should still have it.

        Weapon proficiencies for classes are another example. The Fighter 5
        who's user mistakenly added a level of sorcerer (granting simple
        weapons) and then removed it should still have simple weapon proficiency
        as granted by the fighter.

        Is this a problem in what you are suggesting, or not an issue at all?
        It seems part of the issue you were trying to remove was the need to
        recalculate /everything/ each time something was changed.

        Or I might just be misunderstanding.

        Cheers,
        Jim
      • CC Noram Carstensen James
        Steve, I think I follow what your saying. Let me paraphrase and see if I have it right. For multiple Effects that add that same non-additive Entity, you still
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 11, 2004
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          Steve,

          I think I follow what your saying. Let me paraphrase and see if I have
          it right.

          For multiple Effects that add that same non-additive Entity, you still
          have multiple Entities (and/or increment an internal counter, I'm not
          picky). So that when you remove a single Effect you still have an
          accurate count if other Effects have given that Entity so there is no
          need to recalculate other Effects to see if the Entity should still be
          in force.

          Ok, sounds good.

          The removal of Entities by other effects is where it gets a little foggy
          to me, because you need to be able to handle the number of cases. A
          dwarven speaking character with an item that allows them to speak
          dwarven would have two Dwarven Language Entities (DLEs), or perhaps one
          DLE with a count of 2. A curse might disallow the character from
          speaking Dwarven, and as such "lock" Dwarven at false, regardless of the
          fact that a normal remove would decrease to a single DLE and still allow
          Dwarven speech.

          But then again, this could just be handled by adding a "negative Entity"
          of "Don't Speak Dwarven" with a sufficient negative magnitude that the
          total "Speak dwarven" less "Don't speak dwarven" has a total count of
          zero or less (hereby declared "false"). So either of the "speak
          dwarven" Entity would still have complete freedom and correctness in
          removing (or adding another Entity), and separate from the "don't speak
          dwarven" entity, which could be removed completely separately.

          Am I far in left field?

          Cheers,
          Jim

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Steven Bethard [mailto:bediviere@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:49 PM
          To: pcgen-xml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [pcgen-xml] "Removers"

          Sorry I've been gone for a while. The prelim's over now, though so
          things should be better.

          So most of what we had talked about before was what Effects that
          modified Variables would look like. Jim's comments suggest to me that we
          should probably start talking about what the Effects that add Entities
          to other Entities look like. I haven't thought about this too deeply
          yet, but I thought I'd throw out some ideas to get us started.

          So let's say we have an Effect 'Add Dwarven Language Entity' and an
          Entity
          (Belt) that applies this Effect to another Entity (Character). The way
          I had envisioned it, we would also have an Effect 'Add Dwarven Language
          Entity' that was applied by increasing the 'Speak Languages' Variable.
          So if we followed this line of Effects, the character would, at the end,
          have two 'Dwarven Language Entity's. If you then removed the Effect
          from the belt, it would remove only one of the Entities.

          The advantage of this approach is that it is simple from the perspective
          of Effects. An Add-Entity-Effect always adds the Entity when applied
          and always removes the Entity when removed. There may be disadvantages
          to storing multiple identical Entities though...

          Another scenario: We have an Effect 'Remove Dwarven Language Entity',
          say, some belt that removes the ability to speak Dwarven if the
          character can speak Dwarven. If the belt is removed, any lost language
          is restored.

          My thoughts on this one: When you apply the Effect to a character
          without Dwarven, the Effect is inactive. When an Entity (like the
          Dwarven Language
          Entity) is added to the character, we activate any appropriate inactive
          Effects. So if the character learned Dwarven, the Effect would become
          active and remove it. If the Effect was removed and it was inactive, it
          would not attempt to remove anything from the character. If the Effect
          was removed and it was active, it would remove the Dwarven Language
          Entity from the character.

          This is somewhat more complicated than the original situation. Is it
          too complicated? As far as the data is concerned, we won't ever have to
          encode 'active' or 'inactive' for an effect, just the conditions under
          which it applies. I'm only bringing these things up because I want to
          make sure that any encoding we decide on is actually implementable. =)

          Steve

          -----Original Message-----
          From: CC Noram Carstensen James [mailto:james.carstensen@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:50 AM
          To: pcgen-xml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [pcgen-xml] "Removers"


          I think this is mostly for Frugal and Steven.

          A bit back you were discussing having an "add" and "remove" effect for
          each entity. (Darn, hope I'm getting the terminology correct.) Reading
          the main PCGen group brought to mind a few examples where it isn't a
          progression but rather boolean ability.

          For example, say a magic item that allows you to speak Dwarven. (Belt
          of Dwarvenkind.) When removing it, it should only remove the ability to
          speak dwarven IFF nothing else grants dwarven. A character who chose it
          with the Speak Languages skill should still have it.

          Weapon proficiencies for classes are another example. The Fighter 5
          who's user mistakenly added a level of sorcerer (granting simple
          weapons) and then removed it should still have simple weapon proficiency
          as granted by the fighter.

          Is this a problem in what you are suggesting, or not an issue at all?
          It seems part of the issue you were trying to remove was the need to
          recalculate /everything/ each time something was changed.

          Or I might just be misunderstanding.

          Cheers,
          Jim



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