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Re: [pcgen-xml] It lives! And is reborn!

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  • Brass Tilde
    ... Ah hah! Now I get it. If this was explained earlier, I apologize for not understanding. Put this way, it makes excellent sense, though I might prefer it
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 3, 2005
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      > Section 1: this is designed to tell pcgen how to build a character.
      >
      > Section 2: This is a log, and as such is mostly useful as a debugging
      > tool.

      > Section 3: This is for export, as well as import. This section allows
      > us to show a complete character, sans lst data, and sans decisions.

      Ah hah! Now I get it. If this was explained earlier, I apologize for
      not understanding. Put this way, it makes excellent sense, though I
      might prefer it if the presence of the second section were a
      configuration option. I don't feel very strongly about that, though.

      In your design, I'm assuming that it would be possible to generate a
      "section 3" from any set of levels in section 1, e.g. if I have 10
      levels, but I want a sheet that shows what the character looked like at
      level 9.

      Good stuff. I wish I had more time to help with it.
    • Brass Tilde
      ... the ... we ... programs do. Honestly, I don t think you two are that far apart on this. andargor s element is Devon s section 1 .
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 3, 2005
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        > > andargor wrote:
        >
        > >I realize that PCGen might need "internal representations" or
        > >additional info within the character just for PCGen. This is where
        the
        > >power of XML comes in: you just add a <pcgen version="x.x"> section
        > >and include whatever extra "mechanics" are needed by PCGen.

        > From: "Devon Jones" <soulcatcher@...>

        > Ok, my position on this is that we probably shouldn't. By being xml,
        we
        > are being open, and we can certainly build xslt to transform to other
        > formats, but we need more and different information then these
        programs do.

        Honestly, I don't think you two are that far apart on this. andargor's
        <pcgen version="x.x" /> element is Devon's "section 1".

        > > andargor again.

        > >Please let us be truly open, and allow PCGen to finally be able to
        > >work with other tools.

        This would be Devon's "section 3". The end product of all the
        calculations and other stuff that PCGen does, in a format that can be
        transformed to virtually anything anybody else needs. If a piece of
        info isn't there, it can be added (as long as PCGen processes that
        information).

        Publishing the schema to section 3 enables other programs, should they
        wish to do so, to publish transforms that can be used to use that data
        in whatever way they want.

        Brad
      • Devon Jones
        ... Section 2 will take a long time, and may never be fully realized. Section 2 may not appear it, but it s *hard* ... Precisely, we can even contain if we
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 3, 2005
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          Brass Tilde wrote:

          >
          >Ah hah! Now I get it. If this was explained earlier, I apologize for
          >not understanding. Put this way, it makes excellent sense, though I
          >might prefer it if the presence of the second section were a
          >configuration option. I don't feel very strongly about that, though.
          >
          >
          Section 2 will take a long time, and may never be fully realized.
          Section 2 may not appear it, but it's *hard*

          >In your design, I'm assuming that it would be possible to generate a
          >"section 3" from any set of levels in section 1, e.g. if I have 10
          >levels, but I want a sheet that shows what the character looked like at
          >level 9.
          >
          >
          Precisely, we can even contain if we wish, more then one section 3, and
          if we can get the code fast enough, that may end up defaulting to that
          for each level. If not, it'll be optional.

          >Good stuff. I wish I had more time to help with it.
          >
          >
          >
        • Brass Tilde
          ... I ll reiterate someone else s point here though, that some things are *not* necessarily level dependent, such as one s possessions. It *is* true that most
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 3, 2005
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            > > In your design, I'm assuming that it would be possible to generate a
            > > "section 3" from any set of levels in section 1, e.g. if I have 10
            > > levels, but I want a sheet that shows what the character
            > > looked like at level 9.

            > Precisely, we can even contain if we wish, more then one
            > section 3, and if we can get the code fast enough, that
            > may end up defaulting to that for each level. If not,
            > it'll be optional.

            I'll reiterate someone else's point here though, that some things are
            *not* necessarily level dependent, such as one's possessions. It *is*
            true that most people gather those things over the course of their
            careers, so a strict "point in time" snap-shot section 3 would show
            different equipment for each level.

            However, in the case of losing one or more levels, the equipment would
            need to be retained, and displayed for the new lower level. Not a
            showstopper by any means, and not terribly difficult to implement I
            imagine (I can think of at least one way to do it right now). The whole
            thing implies a sequence to the character, even if part of that sequence
            is going backwards!

            Again, good stuff. Keep up the good work.

            Brad
          • Fred Drake
            ... They were right, of course. Sections 1 and 2 are strictly level-based information; possessions or other point-in-time information ( broken arm ) is
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 3, 2005
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              On 10/3/05, Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
              > I'll reiterate someone else's point here though, that some things are
              > *not* necessarily level dependent, such as one's possessions. It *is*
              > true that most people gather those things over the course of their
              > careers, so a strict "point in time" snap-shot section 3 would show
              > different equipment for each level.

              They were right, of course. Sections 1 and 2 are strictly level-based
              information; possessions or other point-in-time information ("broken
              arm") is separate. I don't know if this really belongs in section 3
              or not, but seems parallel. Points in time also don't generally
              correspond to level transitions. (If you require training in-game to
              learn/advance skills, then levelling up earns skill points, and the
              decisions on spending them happen outside the levelling process.)

              I suspect that full point-in-time rollback should reasonably be
              considered out-of-scope for the data format. This sort of
              functionality is easily enough implemented using copies of the data
              files, either directly on the filesystem or using an external revision
              control system.

              Which is not to say that it's a bad idea to included other timestamped
              information: "Noon, 12 Octember 2345, -1 STR damage (permanent) from
              cursed ray gun." But that's game time; real-world time should still
              be handled externally. There's a lot of messy interactions between
              game time and real-world time, and more tricks to pull if the game
              world isn't on the Gregorian calendar.


              -Fred

              --
              Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at gmail.com>
              "Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless." --B.F. Skinner
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