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Re: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour...

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  • RandyZ. Pierce
    I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with your viewpoints but I vary a bit here. I do think Richard seems a bit more image
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
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      I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with your viewpoints but I vary a bit here.  I do think Richard seems a bit more 'image' conscious than the typical Pats fan but contractually I think he faces a disparity similar to Brady's deal.  He's slightly less pivotal to the team than Brady, IMO, but equally off the market value for his skills.
       
      Now if there is 'serious negotiation' in process, I think he belongs in camp supporting the team while they work out the details.  I respect him for not waging the battle through the media and I support his option to sit out rather than play with the understanding he  is forfeiting his paycheck (the fines essentially cover that as a team option).  Teams can sever a contract at any point placing the player on the free agent market.Aplayer may take a similar approach by not playing and they forfeit the pay in varous means.  It is a workable system with each having a recourse though neither is ideal.
       
      I place Richard Seymour as certainly top 5 and possibly (likely my opinion) top three in the DL world.  I'd rather see him signed through 2010 if it fits within the Pioli/BB money structure.  If not, I've accepted their widom since Chad Eaton.  The fact Jarvis is signed gives them some security to negotiate with Seymour.  Fact is Bailey made more base money than Seymour last year and that's an unreasonable factoid to my performance evaluations.
       
      Hopefully this is the last week Richard isn't in camp.
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:57 AM
      Subject: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour...

      I never considered the Tom Brady deal a precedent setting event. I
      looked at it as the Pats dealing with players on a case-by-case
      basis. TB was woefully underpaid, even though he had two years left.
      I didn't think they would deviate from their position on such things,
      except in such extrordinary circumstances.

      I didn't think that they would seriously negotiate with Seymour this
      off season. If a quick and easy deal couldn't be done, they would
      wait. Seymour would show up and play out the season. If they were
      still far apart next off season, he would probably be traded.

      My opinion all changed upon hearing that serious negotiations were
      indeed underway with Big Sey. I was also a bit surprised this
      weekend, when Mike Vrabel received his extension, even though he had
      THREE years left on his contract. Vrabel's a terrific player, and a
      huge contributor, but it certainly wasn't the unique situation that
      TB presented.

      Questions:
      Have the Patriots altered their philosophy somewhat, to change with
      the times; being more willing to negotiate earlier in a contract (and
      if so, will this help or hurt the team, long term)?

      Could they be so far apart that we will not see Seymour at all this
      year? I would think this unlikely, but who knows. He's a terrific
      player, and by all accounts a great personality, but he does seem to
      be hung up on the image thing a bit. I remember seeing him on one of
      those pre-game shows, talking about his expensive suit and tie, and
      his diamond cuff links, and how important it is to look good. You
      don't hear that kind of stuff from TB.

      Everyone is concentrating on Seymour; what about Vinatieri, Givens,
      and Harrison? I would think Adam definitely gets done. Do they let
      Givens go to FA? Do they just let Rodney play out his current deal?

      Just thoughts for discussion...

      fdb


    • George
      ***** The word contract still holds meaning to me. A player and a team make an agreement that essentially boils down to: If you, player X, play well enough
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
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        ***** The word "contract" still holds meaning to me. A player and a team make an agreement that essentially boils down to: "If you, player X, play well enough to make my team, I will pay you this agreed upon amount of money." When the player signs that contract, he agrees that he will put forth his maximum effort for the team, for the agreed upon period of time, and for the agreed upon amount of money. Refuseing to participate in the mandatory activities specified within the contract is a violation of the contract.
         
        ***** It is understood that the player must perform well enough to make the team, or be cut. Cutting him for non-performance is not a contract violation. A team would violate the contract only if it refuses to pay the player when he does his job.
         
        ***** The player's opportunity to improve his compensation should take place when a contract is negotiated. Whether that is on the first contract, or a later contract, that is the only time when the terms of the existing contract can be changed. Either side may certainly ask for a change at any time. If a mutual agreement to change is reached, fine. But a player refusing to work, or a team refusing to pay a working player, while a contract is in place is wrong. When you make a deal, you live by it. Never has been, and never will be any fuzz on that for me.
         
        George
         
        "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
        I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with your viewpoints but I vary a bit here.  I do think Richard seems a bit more 'image' conscious than the typical Pats fan but contractually I think he faces a disparity similar to Brady's deal.  He's slightly less pivotal to the team than Brady, IMO, but equally off the market value for his skills.
         
        Now if there is 'serious negotiation' in process, I think he belongs in camp supporting the team while they work out the details.  I respect him for not waging the battle through the media and I support his option to sit out rather than play with the understanding he  is forfeiting his paycheck (the fines essentially cover that as a team option).  Teams can sever a contract at any point placing the player on the free agent market.Aplayer may take a similar approach by not playing and they forfeit the pay in varous means.  It is a workable system with each having a recourse though neither is ideal.
         
        I place Richard Seymour as certainly top 5 and possibly (likely my opinion) top three in the DL world.  I'd rather see him signed through 2010 if it fits within the Pioli/BB money structure.  If not, I've accepted their widom since Chad Eaton.  The fact Jarvis is signed gives them some security to negotiate with Seymour.  Fact is Bailey made more base money than Seymour last year and that's an unreasonable factoid to my performance evaluations.
         
        Hopefully this is the last week Richard isn't in camp.
         
        Go Pats!
        Zip
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:57 AM
        Subject: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour...

        I never considered the Tom Brady deal a precedent setting event. I
        looked at it as the Pats dealing with players on a case-by-case
        basis. TB was woefully underpaid, even though he had two years left.
        I didn't think they would deviate from their position on such things,
        except in such extrordinary circumstances.

        I didn't think that they would seriously negotiate with Seymour this
        off season. If a quick and easy deal couldn't be done, they would
        wait. Seymour would show up and play out the season. If they were
        still far apart next off season, he would probably be traded.

        My opinion all changed upon hearing that serious negotiations were
        indeed underway with Big Sey. I was also a bit surprised this
        weekend, when Mike Vrabel received his extension, even though he had
        THREE years left on his contract. Vrabel's a terrific player, and a
        huge contributor, but it certainly wasn't the unique situation that
        TB presented.

        Questions:
        Have the Patriots altered their philosophy somewhat, to change with
        the times; being more willing to negotiate earlier in a contract (and
        if so, will this help or hurt the team, long term)?

        Could they be so far apart that we will not see Seymour at all this
        year? I would think this unlikely, but who knows. He's a terrific
        player, and by all accounts a great personality, but he does seem to
        be hung up on the image thing a bit. I remember seeing him on one of
        those pre-game shows, talking about his expensive suit and tie, and
        his diamond cuff links, and how important it is to look good. You
        don't hear that kind of stuff from TB.

        Everyone is concentrating on Seymour; what about Vinatieri, Givens,
        and Harrison? I would think Adam definitely gets done. Do they let
        Givens go to FA? Do they just let Rodney play out his current deal?

        Just thoughts for discussion...

        fdb




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        patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



      • Frank Northcutt
        We re pretty much in agreement. He deserves much more, he absolutely should be in camp, and he s treating the disagreement like a professional, quietly. One of
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
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          We're pretty much in agreement. He deserves much more, he absolutely
          should be in camp, and he's treating the disagreement like a
          professional, quietly. One of the national sportswriters did a
          comparison of how Seymour is treating his hold-out vs. how TO is
          treating his. It was pretty funny, as you might imagine.

          Isn't one of the reasons someone in Seymour's position stays away is
          to avoid injury? That might completely destroy any bargaining position
          he may have. I'm not saying I agree with that position, but it may be
          part of his thinking.

          fdb

          --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@s...>
          wrote:
          > I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with
          your viewpoints but I vary a bit here. I do think Richard seems a bit
          more 'image' conscious than the typical Pats fan but contractually I
          think he faces a disparity similar to Brady's deal. He's slightly
          less pivotal to the team than Brady, IMO, but equally off the market
          value for his skills.
          >
          > Now if there is 'serious negotiation' in process, I think he belongs
          in camp supporting the team while they work out the details. I
          respect him for not waging the battle through the media and I support
          his option to sit out rather than play with the understanding he is
          forfeiting his paycheck (the fines essentially cover that as a team
          option). Teams can sever a contract at any point placing the player
          on the free agent market.Aplayer may take a similar approach by not
          playing and they forfeit the pay in varous means. It is a workable
          system with each having a recourse though neither is ideal.
          >
          > I place Richard Seymour as certainly top 5 and possibly (likely my
          opinion) top three in the DL world. I'd rather see him signed through
          2010 if it fits within the Pioli/BB money structure. If not, I've
          accepted their widom since Chad Eaton. The fact Jarvis is signed
          gives them some security to negotiate with Seymour. Fact is Bailey
          made more base money than Seymour last year and that's an unreasonable
          factoid to my performance evaluations.
          >
          > Hopefully this is the last week Richard isn't in camp.
          >
          > Go Pats!
          > Zip
          > www.patriotzip.com/ostend.html
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Frank Northcutt
          > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:57 AM
          > Subject: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour...
          >
          >
          > I never considered the Tom Brady deal a precedent setting event. I
          > looked at it as the Pats dealing with players on a case-by-case
          > basis. TB was woefully underpaid, even though he had two years left.
          > I didn't think they would deviate from their position on such things,
          > except in such extrordinary circumstances.
          >
          > I didn't think that they would seriously negotiate with Seymour this
          > off season. If a quick and easy deal couldn't be done, they would
          > wait. Seymour would show up and play out the season. If they were
          > still far apart next off season, he would probably be traded.
          >
          > My opinion all changed upon hearing that serious negotiations were
          > indeed underway with Big Sey. I was also a bit surprised this
          > weekend, when Mike Vrabel received his extension, even though he had
          > THREE years left on his contract. Vrabel's a terrific player, and a
          > huge contributor, but it certainly wasn't the unique situation that
          > TB presented.
          >
          > Questions:
          > Have the Patriots altered their philosophy somewhat, to change with
          > the times; being more willing to negotiate earlier in a contract (and
          > if so, will this help or hurt the team, long term)?
          >
          > Could they be so far apart that we will not see Seymour at all this
          > year? I would think this unlikely, but who knows. He's a terrific
          > player, and by all accounts a great personality, but he does seem to
          > be hung up on the image thing a bit. I remember seeing him on one of
          > those pre-game shows, talking about his expensive suit and tie, and
          > his diamond cuff links, and how important it is to look good. You
          > don't hear that kind of stuff from TB.
          >
          > Everyone is concentrating on Seymour; what about Vinatieri, Givens,
          > and Harrison? I would think Adam definitely gets done. Do they let
          > Givens go to FA? Do they just let Rodney play out his current deal?
          >
          > Just thoughts for discussion...
          >
          > fdb
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
          email to:
          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS New england patriots New england patriot football
          team New england patriot football
          > New england patriot football ticket New england patriot
          memorabilia New england patriots tickets
          >
          >
          >
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          > a.. Visit your group "patriotzip" on the web.
          >
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          > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
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          >
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        • Don Diamant
          I m not so sure which actions are less professional, mouthing off, or not showing for training camp. T.O. showed up for training camp. Don _____ From:
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment

            I’m not so sure which actions are less professional, mouthing off, or not showing for training camp…  T.O. showed up for training camp.

             

            Don

             


            From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Frank Northcutt
            Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:05 PM
            To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Questions on Seymour ...

             

            We're pretty much in agreement. He deserves much more, he absolutely
            should be in camp, and he's treating the disagreement like a
            professional, quietly. One of the national sportswriters did a
            comparison of how Seymour is treating his hold-out vs. how TO is
            treating his. It was pretty funny, as you might imagine.

            Isn't one of the reasons someone in Seymour 's position stays away is
            to avoid injury? That might completely destroy any bargaining position
            he may have. I'm not saying I agree with that position, but it may be
            part of his thinking.

            fdb

            --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com , "RandyZ.  Pierce" <alaric02@s...>
            wrote:
            > I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with
            your viewpoints but I vary a bit here.  I do think Richard seems a bit
            more 'image' conscious than the typical Pats fan but contractually I
            think he faces a disparity similar to Brady's deal.  He's slightly
            less pivotal to the team than Brady, IMO, but equally off the market
            value for his skills.
            >
            > Now if there is 'serious negotiation' in process, I think he belongs
            in camp supporting the team while they work out the details.  I
            respect him for not waging the battle through the media and I support
            his option to sit out rather than play with the understanding he  is
            forfeiting his paycheck (the fines essentially cover that as a team
            option).  Teams can sever a contract at any point placing the player
            on the free agent market.Aplayer may take a similar approach by not
            playing and they forfeit the pay in varous means.  It is a workable
            system with each having a recourse though neither is ideal.
            >
            > I place Richard Seymour as certainly top 5 and possibly (likely my
            opinion) top three in the DL world.  I'd rather see him signed through
            2010 if it fits within the Pioli/BB money structure.  If not, I've
            accepted their widom since Chad Eaton.  The fact Jarvis is signed
            gives them some security to negotiate with Seymour .  Fact is Bailey
            made more base money than Seymour last year and that's an unreasonable
            factoid to my performance evaluations.
            >
            > Hopefully this is the last week Richard isn't in camp.
            >
            > Go Pats!
            > Zip
            > www.patriotzip.com/ostend.html
            >
            >   ----- Original Message -----
            >   From: Frank Northcutt
            >   To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
            >   Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:57 AM
            >   Subject: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour ...
            >
            >
            >   I never considered the Tom Brady deal a precedent setting event. I
            >   looked at it as the Pats dealing with players on a case-by-case
            >   basis. TB was woefully underpaid, even though he had two years left.
            >   I didn't think they would deviate from their position on such things,
            >   except in such extrordinary circumstances.
            >
            >   I didn't think that they would seriously negotiate with Seymour this
            >   off season. If a quick and easy deal couldn't be done, they would
            >   wait. Seymour would show up and play out the season. If they were
            >   still far apart next off season, he would probably be traded.
            >
            >   My opinion all changed upon hearing that serious negotiations were
            >   indeed underway with Big Sey. I was also a bit surprised this
            >   weekend, when Mike Vrabel received his extension, even though he had
            >   THREE years left on his contract. Vrabel's a terrific player, and a
            >   huge contributor, but it certainly wasn't the unique situation that
            >   TB presented.
            >
            >   Questions:
            >   Have the Patriots altered their philosophy somewhat, to change with
            >   the times; being more willing to negotiate earlier in a contract (and
            >   if so, will this help or hurt the team, long term)?
            >
            >   Could they be so far apart that we will not see Seymour at all this
            >   year? I would think this unlikely, but who knows. He's a terrific
            >   player, and by all accounts a great personality, but he does seem to
            >   be hung up on the image thing a bit. I remember seeing him on one of
            >   those pre-game shows, talking about his expensive suit and tie, and
            >   his diamond cuff links, and how important it is to look good. You
            >   don't hear that kind of stuff from TB.
            >
            >   Everyone is concentrating on Seymour ; what about Vinatieri, Givens,
            >   and Harrison ? I would think Adam definitely gets done. Do they let
            >   Givens go to FA? Do they just let Rodney play out his current deal?
            >
            >   Just thoughts for discussion...
            >
            >   fdb
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >   To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
            email to:
            >   patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >   SPONSORED LINKS New england patriots  New england patriot football
            team  New england patriot football 
            >         New england patriot football ticket  New england patriot
            memorabilia  New england patriots tickets 
            >
            >
            >
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            >      
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          • Frank Northcutt
            Valid point. fdb ... or not ... left. ... things, ... this ... had ... (and ... seem to ... one of ...
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Valid point.

              fdb

              --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "Don Diamant" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
              > I'm not so sure which actions are less professional, mouthing off,
              or not
              > showing for training camp. T.O. showed up for training camp.
              >
              >
              >
              > Don
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Frank Northcutt
              > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:05 PM
              > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [patriotzip] Re: Questions on Seymour...
              >
              >
              >
              > We're pretty much in agreement. He deserves much more, he absolutely
              > should be in camp, and he's treating the disagreement like a
              > professional, quietly. One of the national sportswriters did a
              > comparison of how Seymour is treating his hold-out vs. how TO is
              > treating his. It was pretty funny, as you might imagine.
              >
              > Isn't one of the reasons someone in Seymour's position stays away is
              > to avoid injury? That might completely destroy any bargaining position
              > he may have. I'm not saying I agree with that position, but it may be
              > part of his thinking.
              >
              > fdb
              >
              > --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@s...>
              > wrote:
              > > I have found myself frequently in appreciation and/or agreement with
              > your viewpoints but I vary a bit here. I do think Richard seems a bit
              > more 'image' conscious than the typical Pats fan but contractually I
              > think he faces a disparity similar to Brady's deal. He's slightly
              > less pivotal to the team than Brady, IMO, but equally off the market
              > value for his skills.
              > >
              > > Now if there is 'serious negotiation' in process, I think he belongs
              > in camp supporting the team while they work out the details. I
              > respect him for not waging the battle through the media and I support
              > his option to sit out rather than play with the understanding he is
              > forfeiting his paycheck (the fines essentially cover that as a team
              > option). Teams can sever a contract at any point placing the player
              > on the free agent market.Aplayer may take a similar approach by not
              > playing and they forfeit the pay in varous means. It is a workable
              > system with each having a recourse though neither is ideal.
              > >
              > > I place Richard Seymour as certainly top 5 and possibly (likely my
              > opinion) top three in the DL world. I'd rather see him signed through
              > 2010 if it fits within the Pioli/BB money structure. If not, I've
              > accepted their widom since Chad Eaton. The fact Jarvis is signed
              > gives them some security to negotiate with Seymour. Fact is Bailey
              > made more base money than Seymour last year and that's an unreasonable
              > factoid to my performance evaluations.
              > >
              > > Hopefully this is the last week Richard isn't in camp.
              > >
              > > Go Pats!
              > > Zip
              > > www.patriotzip.com/ostend.html
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Frank Northcutt
              > > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:57 AM
              > > Subject: [patriotzip] Questions on Seymour...
              > >
              > >
              > > I never considered the Tom Brady deal a precedent setting event. I
              > > looked at it as the Pats dealing with players on a case-by-case
              > > basis. TB was woefully underpaid, even though he had two years
              left.
              > > I didn't think they would deviate from their position on such
              things,
              > > except in such extrordinary circumstances.
              > >
              > > I didn't think that they would seriously negotiate with Seymour
              this
              > > off season. If a quick and easy deal couldn't be done, they would
              > > wait. Seymour would show up and play out the season. If they were
              > > still far apart next off season, he would probably be traded.
              > >
              > > My opinion all changed upon hearing that serious negotiations were
              > > indeed underway with Big Sey. I was also a bit surprised this
              > > weekend, when Mike Vrabel received his extension, even though he
              had
              > > THREE years left on his contract. Vrabel's a terrific player, and a
              > > huge contributor, but it certainly wasn't the unique situation that
              > > TB presented.
              > >
              > > Questions:
              > > Have the Patriots altered their philosophy somewhat, to change with
              > > the times; being more willing to negotiate earlier in a contract
              (and
              > > if so, will this help or hurt the team, long term)?
              > >
              > > Could they be so far apart that we will not see Seymour at all this
              > > year? I would think this unlikely, but who knows. He's a terrific
              > > player, and by all accounts a great personality, but he does
              seem to
              > > be hung up on the image thing a bit. I remember seeing him on
              one of
              > > those pre-game shows, talking about his expensive suit and tie, and
              > > his diamond cuff links, and how important it is to look good. You
              > > don't hear that kind of stuff from TB.
              > >
              > > Everyone is concentrating on Seymour; what about Vinatieri, Givens,
              > > and Harrison? I would think Adam definitely gets done. Do they let
              > > Givens go to FA? Do they just let Rodney play out his current deal?
              > >
              > > Just thoughts for discussion...
              > >
              > > fdb
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
              > email to:
              > > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SPONSORED LINKS New england patriots New england patriot football
              > team New england patriot football
              > > New england patriot football ticket New england patriot
              > memorabilia New england patriots tickets
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              > > a.. Visit your group "patriotzip" on the web.
              > >
              > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
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