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Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

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  • RandyZ. Pierce
    I m fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed. I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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      I'm fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed.  I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer including a minimum tender offer.  The Patriots had no contract offer for him at all and despite pushing from Big Ted, Hamilton gave the Pats every last chance to make *ANY* offer to him before signing with the Raiders.  My source whom heard it first hand is on this list...
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ed Bryant
      Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:06 PM
      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

      Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

      "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
      Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
       
      Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
       
      The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
       
      There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
       
      I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
       
      Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
       
      Go Pats!
      Zip
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: jeepndd
      Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
      Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

      I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

       

      “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

       

      While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

       

      Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

       

      So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

       

      I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

       

      Don

       


      From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
      Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
      To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

       

      I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

       

      The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

       

      Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

       

      We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

       

      Go Pats!

      Zip

       

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

      Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

       

      Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
      and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
      5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
      suffered more if they had not signed him.

      I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
      we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
      player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
      is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
      than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
      he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
      Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

      Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
      not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
      doesn't have that problem.

      Anyone else have an opinion?

      fdb

      --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
      > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
      Seymour hold
      > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
      exorbitant
      > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
      the team.
      > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
      the short
      > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
      years left
      > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
      > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
      way that
      > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
      > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
      >

      >
      > Don
      >

      >
      >   _____ 
      >
      > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of George
      > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
      > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
      > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
      > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
      >

      >
      > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
      that
      > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
      the hood,
      > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
      BB for a
      > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
      that BB
      > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
      going to
      > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
      smidgen) as
      > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
      going to be
      > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
      them. But,
      > as a group ... WOW!
      >

      >
      > George
      >
      > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From Rotoworld:
      >
      > The News
      > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
      > Our Take
      > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
      anticipate.
      > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
      > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
      > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
      > receiver.
      >
      > =================
      > Christopher Robert Woods
      > chris@p...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
      email to:
      > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
      email to:
      > patriotzip-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   _____ 
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
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    • Ed Bryant
      Well, I m not having any luck backtracking to the old contract negotiations, but google has convinced me that Bobby Hamiton has signed yet again with the
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 15, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Well, I'm not having any luck backtracking to the old contract negotiations, but google has convinced me that Bobby Hamiton has signed yet again with the Raiders, this contract being signed in May 0f 2005.  Just last week, Zeron Flemister and Kevin Kasper found jobs.  It wasn't so long ago you didn't play in the NFL after being released by New England!  It's nice to have our current problems. 
         
        Do you suppose any future SB ring would be big enough for a big print warning:  The Surgeon General has determined that winning the Super Bowl causes paternity!
        I base this on the saying "Victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan."  The Surgeon General part was inspired by the Brady cancer hypothesis which fertilized our lives last week. 



        "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
        I'm fairly certain you are incorrect in this assumption Ed.  I have it on second hand (barely) authority that Bobby pleaded with the Pats to make him any offer including a minimum tender offer.  The Patriots had no contract offer for him at all and despite pushing from Big Ted, Hamilton gave the Pats every last chance to make *ANY* offer to him before signing with the Raiders.  My source whom heard it first hand is on this list...
         
        Go Pats!
        Zip
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ed Bryant
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

        Actually, unlike Ted Washington, Bobby Hamilton signed with the Raiders for less than he was offered by New England, on the notion, I presume, any way, that he was not as likely to make the team in NE in 2004 as he was to make the Raiders.  He took less so he could play football!

        "RandyZ. Pierce" <alaric02@...> wrote:
        Your position has merit in some aspects.  I don't disparage you for having it though I still don't agree with it.  You cited one year for the cap numbers of Tom, Vick and Manning.  Do the save for every year and you'll get a much more clear image that tom took a deal entirely friendly to the team and established to ensure he could remain with the team.
         
        Seymour is without argument worth more than what he is receiving.  I am uncertain, as presumedly are you, what level of contract negotiations are in progress.  I know he stayed out of mini-camp and allegedly for contract issues.  Beyond that I have nothing to help me understand the progress.
         
        The facts are that a team has to be undert the salary cap and the more quality players involved the more challenging.
         
        There is no doubt that Tom was made a wealthy man.  There is little doubt in my mind that his role on this team is the most vital.  Seymour has lousy numbers but that doesn't change my awareness that he is deserving of consideration as the best DL in all of football.  Numbers only tell part of a story and can frequently be used to tell a variety of tales depending on how they are displayed.  Tom's sacks are low - is it because of a great offensive line or his very high level of pocket awareness and pocket mobility?  Seymour's sacks are low, is it because teams overload protection on him?  Is it the system in which he stays to his job and makes our teamt he Champions?
         
        I've been a season ticket holder much longer than this team has been talented.  I welcome the band wagons and the excitement of winning because while I"m loyal either way, I can tell you just how much more fun comes from winning football and hoisting Lombardi Trophies.  I also like the entire class our ogranaization has risen to achieve.  Days of shame are infrequent and days of pride on and off the field are high. 
         
        Sure I would have liked Tom to take an even better deal but I don't expect him or any player to be so extreme though I am thankful for the Tedy Bruschi and Bobby Hamilton's of the world whom do have this view and willingess.  They are the largest part of why we can be successful and they are reaping the rewards of that success in ways beyond money.  (Yeah, I know Bobby's gone but he was that kind of guy)
         
        Go Pats!
        Zip
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jeepndd
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:16 AM
        Subject: RE: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

        I’m not saying Brady is trying to be subversive.  But look at this quote;

         

        “In terms of cap numbers, Vick's is $7.99 million this year, Brady's is $8.429 million and Manning's is $8.431 million.”  - http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/nfl/story/8466188

         

        While not intentional, it appears, given the grumblings we’ve seen from a few players and not just a single malcontent that this is weighing on them.  And I don’t think it’s that surprising.  Tom Brady received a contract that put him in the top three in terms of salary for his position in the NFL.  Tom Brady, for all his accomplishments, does not put up the gaudy numbers of a Michael Vick or a Peyton Manning.  Now Brady is a great QB and his numbers would be higher if he wasn’t a team guy but he didn’t take a hit on salary to stay on the team.  He could have taken less and still made more money than most of us will ever dream of and certainly enough to guarantee a comfortable lifestyle for himself and generations of his own.

         

        Now I won’t argue Harrison ’s position, I kind of understand it, but it is what it is.  But, Seymour ’s position?  I suspect he is looking at the fact that he is arguably the number one in his position in the NFL and his salary isn’t even in the top ten for his position.  The team could have made Tom Brady finish out his contract and then renegotiated but they didn’t take the chances that gamble would have presented.  What about Seymour ?  Don’t they value him?  This is a three time pro-bowler who hasn’t seen his last pro-bowl.  Oh, and Seymour is only entering his sixth NFL season so he’s not exactly ready to be put out to pasture yet either.  Why isn’t Seymour worth even top 5 numbers?

         

        So while Tom Brady may be an upstanding almost team guy his contract negotiation was hardly a take one for the team deal.  Many on this Patriots team have done what Tom hasn’t, taken a contract for the team so that this team can keep their winning ways. 

         

        I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, this is my opinion that is all.  I would hope however that you at least consider the position arguable.

         

        Don

         


        From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RandyZ. Pierce
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:39 AM
        To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

         

        I flat out disagree with the origninal post.  I do not view Brady as a Cancer or detriment in any fashion and that includes his contract.  Brady didn't hold out or miss a single off-season workout opportunity.  He's been a consumate team player and his work behind the center has been a part of whta makes this team successful.  I think he rides out this contractuntil one or two years remain and then emaluates with the team where it goes next.

         

        The trouble with winning (and bring it all on please!) is thta the value of players on inning teams is increased both internally and to the other 31 teams.  When the internal values all try to rise together the Salary cap must hold them down.  In these times the team has to evaluate which components they can afford to risk losing and which pieces must be kept at costs higher than original.  Many Pats players are underpaid for the value they present on an open market.  THat's why the Front Office must attempt to prevent their being on a free market.   

         

        Richard Seymour is our best DL and an excellent DL at that.  Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork are both very good lineman and still improving.  I don't yet think they show quite the potential of Seymour but they are very good.  As Seymour escalates so will they and there are simply only so many dollars for each position.  Seymour likely deserves a bigger cotnract, there is no doubt he'd make it on another team.  That is true of Tom Brady as well - that is true for Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Deion Branch, Corey Dillon...

         

        We are so deep because we have managed a high quality talent at medium dollar values thus having great depth in proportion to the league.

         

        Go Pats!

        Zip

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:41 PM

        Subject: [patriotzip] Re: I had a feeling about this...

         

        Even if you are correct (which I'm not so sure you are), if the team
        and TB had not reached a deal, he may have been gone in 2 years, not
        5. Pick your poison. I think the attitude on this team would have
        suffered more if they had not signed him.

        I think they'll work something out with Seymour . But if they don't,
        we'll survive. The simple statement is; Seymour is an excellent
        player, but he's simply not as vital to the team's success as Brady
        is. I also don't think Brady's contract is exhorbitant. He makes less
        than Manning, and less than Vick. Though he may not have the numbers,
        he's arguably more effective at the position than Manning. And Vick?
        Not even close. I think the deal is good all the way around.

        Brady won't be a cancer because he's "one of the guys". Bledsoe was
        not. He alienated some team mates after his big contract. Brady
        doesn't have that problem.

        Anyone else have an opinion?

        fdb

        --- In patriotzip@yahoogroups.com, "jeepndd" <jeepndd@v...> wrote:
        > Yeah, while that is all good. I can't help but think that the
        Seymour hold
        > out and Harrison 's attitude doesn't have something to do with the
        exorbitant
        > contract that Tom Brady received.  I now see Brady as a cancer on
        the team.
        > Unfortunately we don't have any good prospects for quarterback for
        the short
        > term.  But, mark my words, Brady's deal means he has less than 5
        years left
        > with this team.  I think it also means that our amazing winning ways are
        > coming to a close soon, maybe one more year.  In a bizarre sort of
        way that
        > is good news for me as the bandwagonner's depart ways with their season
        > tickets I will see mine that much sooner.  I'm a Pats fan good or bad.
        >

        >
        > Don
        >

        >
        >   _____ 
        >
        > From: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com [mailto:patriotzip@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of George
        > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:54 PM
        > To: patriotzip@yahoogroups.com; patriots@b...
        > Cc: Kirk Luedeke
        > Subject: Re: [patriotzip] I had a feeling about this...
        >

        >
        > ***** I proclaimed my enthusiasm for this signing the moment I heard
        that
        > Brady was stumping for him. It's not like they were 'homeys' from
        the hood,
        > or something! Brady has a burning desire to win. He would not go to
        BB for a
        > player he didn't totally believe could help this team. Now, the fact
        that BB
        > is impressed with what he sees, has me fully convinced that DT is
        going to
        > excel with us. I won't be surprised if he surpases Givens (by a
        smidgen) as
        > our #2 WR behind " Hollywood ". That 3-some, plus Watson at TE, is
        going to be
        > absolutely awesome this year! Probably not a fantasy star among
        them. But,
        > as a group ... WOW!
        >

        >
        > George
        >
        > Christopher Robert Woods <chris@p...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From Rotoworld:
        >
        > The News
        > David Terrell has impressed coach Bill Belichick all offseason.
        > Our Take
        > He could play a bigger role in the Patriots offense than most
        anticipate.
        > "I think football is really important to him. And I think he takes a lot
        > of pride in what he does, and I have a lot respect for that," Belichick
        > said. Terrell looks likely to start the season as the team's third
        > receiver.
        >
        > =================
        > Christopher Robert Woods
        > chris@p...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
        email to:
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from Zip's New England Patriots Fan Group, send an
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >   _____ 
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
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